JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Is Songwriting Dead?

As usual Mike Dunbar hits it on the head............

Tom

Listen to Colin's new cd ---- nice stuff there.

Songwriting is alive in many ways and styles. The most popular ones are not like the old ones and should not be. Things have to change. I like the new stuff better than the old stuff.

What did Mike Dunbar hit on the head, that its hard to make money from songwriting? Was it ever easy?

I dont think u guys are getting the jist of the conversation.

It has changed, check. It is different, check.

But it's not songwriting as it once was.

The popular music today is production driven, less about melody, less about lyric. To deny that is not paying attention.

If Shelia Davis released her craft of songwriting book today, she would be using Taylor swift and Adelle as samples, instead of Paul Simon, Jimmy Webb and Cynthia Weil.

Im not saying that songwriting doesnt exist, im saying time tested classic songwriting is not important today.

Not sure Bob Dylan would have done so well in this day and age.

Obviously songs are needed, in that, songwriting is not dead. But the fine art of songwriting is not needed or appreciated by the masses.

12RS,

You left out the first part. Songwriting is bigger than ever. More people are taking part in it. Sites like this allow people to write their own songs and share them with each other. It's the "karaoke-ing" of songwriting. Look at ReverbNation, SoundCloud, SongRamp, and any number of other inappropriately capitalized synthesized words. Now, has it stayed as dominant in popular music? No. Its audience has fragmented and diluted as their friends and families have joined in the game. In a word ItHasChangedAWholeBunch.

Would Bob Dylan have done as well in this day and age? I'll bet he's been downloaded, streamed and youtubed as much as he ever sold.

no he wouldnt, nobody would give a [naughty word removed] about blowin in the wind today. That was written when people cared to listen to a song for a message, without Dylans message hes outright boring.

But Im a fan.

Songwriting is alive, it's just not as good.

Maybe this guy can explain better than I.

We all have opinions, I dont know if Im voicing minc correctly.

http://www.technewsiit.com/story/vis-vis-lost-art-songwriting

The lost art (the title of your link)? There are more people writing songs today than ever before. Again, there's a basic mistake being made. It's just as popular, probably more popular than ever. It's just that there are move people doing it, the pie is being sliced more.

Now, does mainstream radio pay as much attention to the songwriter? It depends, do you count Lady Gaga as a songwriter? How about Taylor Swift? She's one of the hottest acts ever, and she writes her own songs. Or is it just the old farts that count?

To continue: the lost art? There are more classes, books, websites, clubs etc. for songwriters than ever before. Ahem...look at where we are now.

Bob Dylan would not be a star now...HE'S TOO OLD. Someone his age would not have been a star in the 60's either.

I agree people are writing songs, songwriting is big business.

I think one of the reasons it's big business is because the people offering services cant do anything with their songs themselves, so they can make money teaching others.

It still doesn't address the main point. the average Joe doesnt care about great songwriting. They would rather listen to Bruno MArs than Bob Dylan.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

-Bob Dylan

Still didn't answer about Taylor Swift. One of the biggest stars of our time. Songwriter.

lol again apples and oranges.

its not changin what people like, they dont like great songwriting anymore.

Will somebody such are yourself be quoting Bruno Mars 3o years after he wrote his gems?

No, because I'll be dead then. I will quote from my favorite lyric of all time.

Hattie told Mattie,
Let's not take a chance,
Let's not be L-7,
Come and learn to dance.

I love all kinds of music. From incoherent three chord punk rock, to jazz, to bubble gum pop to singer songwriters.

I even Like Taylor Swift, My Niece loves her, she;s good at what she does, but shes not writing songs like Dolly Parton, a fair comparison being they are both quasi country stars.

But the listener of today wont know the difference, they will probably think Taylor Swift writes better songs becuase the sound is current and it's fresh.

It has nothing to do with eras, I love this guy Willie Nile who is banging out great record after great record, I like the gaslight anthem, I like the Black Keys, I like alot of current music, I just think it doesnt matter how well you craft a song, if u are trying to pitch, have a kick ass recording and have a huge hook.

But it's all a crapshoot anyway.

As Greg Kihn once said "they dont write em like that any more"

Or Mr Springsteen when he wrote "the Poets down here dont write nothing at all, they just stand back and let it all be"

The listener of today won't know the difference? Really? Of course there's a difference. I know the difference between Bob Dylan and Sam the Sham and the Pharoahs. I like Bob Dylan, but Sam the Sham is my favorite. And, yes, they do write them. P.J. Harvey, James Vincent McMorrow, JPF's own Joanne Lurgio, the Flaming Lips, Blackwater Park. Then there's the son of an old friend of mine, Ray LaMontagne. You'd be amazed how many young folks know what some folks call "good" lyrics, which I call "intellectual" lyrics. See, I think "doo be doo be doo" is also "good."

young people who write songs...

not the average JOE.

And even if they can tell the difference, they dont care, they like
a great sounding production first and foremost.

They wont salivate at a guy playing an acoustic guitar singing about Vietnam, but give me a good beat and sing about how
you cant find your lucky shirt.

The charts dont lie, Havent heard a great crafted song in some time, but many songs I enjoy listening to.

The average Joe? Doesn't speak english...wouldn't understand the lyrics. Well crafted? According to whom? This is the old argument. I mean literally, the "old" argument..."old" is better. It went on long before anyone here was born. We all argued it with our parents, now we argue it with our kids. LOL.

Blessings, Out,
Mike

As a writer/performer with a eye on tomorrow (meaning me)...

I would say the Bruno Mars writes very crafty songs with lyrics that have lots of great imagery. If all that's being focused on is the production then the meaning will be lost.

I would also say that Lady GaGa has also written some memorable songs. Not her entire catalog and much of it is co-written, but nonetheless I don't know of any artist past or present that writes 100% hits and depth every time.

All I get out of this thread is: "Whaaaaaaaaa. My era isn't on top anymore."

If you're not happy with quality of songs today - then start proving everyone wrong by writing songs that define what tomorrow will be. Who will do it?

Im not that old, When I was13 0r 14 I didnt like anything current. While other guys were discovering whitesnake and Metallica, I was just discovering the who and the stones.

I had no interest in 80's music to seriously listen to. There was some good music but it didnt move me.

I dont know if people need to be moved at all now. I gotta feeling tonight's gonna be a good night is enough to do the trick.

I have nothing against that song though.

I think songwriting as an art started to take a nose dive when artists such as the beatles started writing their own songs. The Beatles happened to be great at it, but the aftermath wasnt as good.

Little by little, decade by decade the songs and the music got less potent and watered down.

Now everybody and anybody can write a song very easilt thanks to technology, and we wonder why it's not as good.

Ill concede that there is still good music being written, I jsut think the trend is going towards production not song and has been for a long time, just moreso now.

Soon machines will be writing the songs too.

He writes crafty pop songs, not crafty songs.

he is a mechanist, a hook creater, a bullshiter actually lol.

If your goal is to write a hit song today, he's probably worth studying over the beatles, if the goal is to be a great writer, dont even say Bruno Mars.

Again, nothing against him, he's talented, and good at what he does, but he's not writing say, Elton John quality songs, a pop star just like he is.

I like Bruno, but I dont see what he does that thousands of others cant.

Hi

Here in the studio we discuss at great lengths all about these things, the subject is so vast and wide it's beyond any discussion lol. I know so little in our world but understanding Pop culture, Music & Food!! is what I do know best. That and people, human nature. I can relate to so many types of people.

I have a few very cool notes/ articles I scribbled down about this subject and a few other very relevant ones. Maybe one day I'll feel well enough two days in row to post some

Your overall questions can't really be answered because music like so many others things is totally subjective. If somebody loves and thinks Justin Beeb or Timberlake is better than Paul McCartney then the fact is "they are " in there eyes...

Originally Posted by December Rock Star

We know whats been happening in music in general, but is the craft of songwriting a lost one?

Nope not at all first because the art itself is so broad. It's only what's VERY popular that has some people, sorry true "MUSIC" lovers, older and in the more conventional sense confused. At a loss for the qualities and things they miss.

Remember some people love music mainly because of THAT particular music not "Music" as a whole.
So many of my 80's friends musician or not loved the look, and the chicks and the show more than anything.. So lets think if you're drawn heavily into those things than the music goes with it. Heavy Metal hair Bands! Today that is HIP HOP and alike, all the way or at least 80%.... When you love music you love all music!
There is still great & good stuff being written all the time always will be.

Fast answer - The sole songwriter, who doesn't sing and look beautiful or play in a band is the one who is GONE. Or lets say struggles the most in every way.


Does anybody listening to music out there aside from the ones who make music themselves, care about great song craft? Or great lyrics? or even great melody?

Again most music is geared to the young anyway, who else waits on line overnight for tickets, hangs posters all over there room, spends much of there money on following there favorites and talks about them all the time, spreading the word. KIDS! That's who.

And know they don't think about "Songwriting" the fading art
Just like they don't think about who builds the cool cars they want SO BAD! I here great melodies all the time in today's popular music. Will it be remembered in 50, 100 or 200 years form now? We won't know. I don't think so, why" I think we've have learned that there are only so many who get to be
Bach's Beethovens,Beatles and Stevie's each century

I think it's "Move me or Lose me"
Great sound, seems to trump great song and great performance.

Well again I'll mention the three P's as they are the MAIN drive behind what you hear.
Producers - Pro Tools - Pitch Correction. Great sound however as ALWAYS usually been a part of either great music or popular music great or not.... Labels spent plenty in the past.
Yes the biggest artists are totally doing what you'd expect these days "Following there time" It's not time to be a GREAT musician that was last century! We forget we are OUT of the last century now.


I guess it's logical. When a jazz cat practices 8 hours a day just to be a competent Jazz player, who really cares? Other Jazz musicians. If a Jazz guy throws a concert for 100 people 99 of them will be other jazz musicians.

Not so, the die hard fans of it still exist for now, but yes most will be musicians and sophisticated music lovers. Not Snooki and friends. This is part of why the 60's & 70's remain the greatest decades in popular music of the last one hundred years. It had EVERYTHING in it. And I do mean everything!

NOW, pretty much yes nobody cares, that's because the days of Jazz also being POPULAR music is over and done with! It's been filtered out just like some other things. Starting with "real Instruments"


Nobody cares how much time and dedication he put into it, and how he probably destroys most musicians making millions on a strict musical level. But so What? What does your great musicianship have to do with me?

No "kids" don't really care, if they were young and Louie Armstrong and his like are playing on the radio every single day like in the past then they would care and realize. Very simple, you can't know about things you never see or hear, unless somebody shows you! Who's gonna show them? There Dad born in 1990?

I respect lots of the people making music today, and I do and have done "everything" with music and I do mean everything!

I'm a musician and producer as well as a songwriter and I KNOW what people want, it's about Entertainment and coming off cool.
Yes the singer and dancer makes the BIG bucks kinda always been that way. It's just now all the other great stuff is weeded out and left off the MAIN charts and TV overall.

It's never gonna be fair, it's something you must except, do first because you love to do..
Lets say Usher or Justin Timberlake comes over to my house. He stands up and sings and slides around with those patented dance moves. I'll praise him and say wow he's better than i thought. No Teddy P but better than I thought. Now he's done, how much singing and dancing can you do over the same two chords?

And now it's my turn... But many young artists even if they "know enough, to know better" have there possie's and after they leave here it's the over the shoulder friend say's "Man that guy is whack dont let the 50 more things he did then you beat your head, your the [naughty word removed] man"
And I don't boast or speak out in confidence because of my abilities, because I think who I am, I DO "Know Better" meaning I know what true greateness is and It ain't me...
I leap out with confidence because of my EFFORT I'm proud of how hard I worked my whole life and sacrificed.



Anyway, is it something we should just do, like the poor jazz musician, for our own achievments? and not worry about any reward? Or do we stop this nonsens and get us some kick ass recordings of the catchiest songs we can think up?

hmm...

Well if you worked hard enough and have or had the discipline to be like the poor jazz musician then the question is moot...

You gotta love that,and what you do to be that great or good.
And mostly likely you really don't care about the pop scene.
Your very happy to be the drummer good enough to be in Pat Metheney's band
Also you most likely COULDN'T write or get a hit in today's market so again it's moot!

Even if it's programming drums and machines and slicing samples and loops I always admire to a degree thing's I'm not good at as well. I can create and write in MANY MANY MANY ways and styles, and do lots of different things.

But yet I STILL can't do what's out there right now, it's just not me, not in my heart and I can't relate to it very much.. it's not my century, it's there's let them enjoy it.

Okay the massive dose of Ibuprophen just wore off, I hate pills!!

[b]In short? just Do what Jody says

And remember "If your any good at all, you know you can be much better"

Mike

I don't disagree with any of that.

We live in a specialist world, so much so that a cardiologist cant even diagnose a cold. Baseball players who do nothing but pinch run.

There are plenty of "songwriters" who write for tv spots etc.

But you basicly said what I said, pure songwriter=dead.

doesnt mean there isnt talent out there, just means nobody cares about the singer-songwriter thoughts on the world.

There's always been a timberlake or a bieber, nobody minds them, but the Paul Simons and Carly Simons of the world are not there.

Even though there are some great performers and singers.

I can admire a TV songwriter or a soundtrack guy, he's a songwriter, but it's more production than songwriting.

Songwriting fully is pencil and paper and an instrument.

Havent heard a great story song in a while.

Good thoughts.

I disagree. I think that there are terrific songs being written. I love them.

It is not either or (for me). I like the old stuff and the new stuff. It's all good - er, some of the old is good and some is bad and same goes for the new stuff.

When I started writing songs for Justice I had to immerse myself in the new pop song culture. For three years I listened almost exclusively to current teen pop. And you know what - I really like it.

Tom

The singer-songwriter has the best chance to make it today. If you are a fairly good singer that writes fairly good songs, go to the labels,that is what they are looking for. If you are a great writer but can't sing or if you are a great singer that can't write,your chances are slim to nil of making it.

The labels have given up on looking through 1000 songs to find ten to suit their singers on their labels. They would sooner sign singer/songwriters with their own supply of songs. They may not sell as many CDs, but they have most of the radio stations under their control(through money) playing their songs(because they now take some of the publishing on these song) they now get their share of millions of airplay royalties for the songs,plus in countries that now pay (not the US) royalties to the record labels,they make more millions. While they control the airplay and get their share,they are not too concerned about the quality of the singer or the songs,just as long as they are competitive with the other major labels. The indie labels may be putting out way better stuff but they don't have the money to buy their way into the radio monopoly. That is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I appreciate all the comments, I dont mean to say anyone is wrong or im right not matter how right I may be LOL.

My basic idea for starting the thread was that the actual song, is not the focus for most trying to market music today.

Crafting a great song is simply something you do for sport today, if you want to pitch or market your songs, you have to follow the pecking order.

Marketing, Hook, Production, Performance, and oh yea the song.

Songs are not songs, they are performances recorded in a studio.

An acoustic bit like "yesterday" wouldnt likely get more than an indie interest today.

For the guy talking about singer songwriter deals, I see what u mean, but more and more artists are in the DIY business, they DONT want a label stealing their little money they have and make.

That is the one blessing from all the internet changes, you dont need a label, u can go out and do it yourself, and if u are really good u might get some fans.

As far as selling music, it's not going to matter how perfectly metered your lyrics are!

great article...

http://the60sofficialsite.com/Why_Is_Most_Music_So_Bad_Today.html

and how many of the 2006 top SONGS, are REALLY SONGS.

Here are the top 5 songs right now in the Summer of 2006:

- Fergie - London Bridge
- Gnarls Barkley - Crazy
- Nelly Furtado Featuring Timbaland - Promiscuous
- The Pussycat Dolls Featuring Snoop Dogg - Buttons
- Panic! At The Disco - I Write Sins Not Tragedies

And here were the top 5 albums of 2005:

- Mariah Carey - The Emancipation of Mimi
- 50 Cent - The Massacre
- Kelly Clarkson - Breakaway
- Green Day - American Idiot
- The Black Eyed Peas - Monkey Business

Here are the top 5 albums of 1976:

- Peter Frampton - Frampton Comes Alive
- Fleetwood Mac - Fleetwood Mac
- Wings - Wings At The Speed Of Sound
- Eagles - Eagles Greatest Hits 1971-1975
- Chicago - Chicago IX Greatest Hits

And here are the top 5 albums of 1966

- Original Soundtrack The Sound Of Music
- The Beatles - Revolver
- The Beatles - Rubber Soul
- The Rolling Stones - Aftermath
- The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds

As said through the years: Rock n Roll is dead, Disco is Dead. Beatles are dead. BUT, they all still exist!

If any song is being recorded, then songwriting is not dead. It just may not be the kind any certain listener will like, so they deem songwriting dead. I'm sure many a parent claimed The Beatles were the end of songwriting! LOL. Now they are compared to the greats of all time in Classical and other POP music of any era! Not bad songwriter's, most will of course say.

So, it may just be that any given ear is dead, for not hearing what they prefer. Ask any pop star fan about their idol. They will say they write the best songs! So it goes.

It's up the fan of any to say how great a song is,,,and it's up to the hater of any writer or style to say how much it sucks. Then you got people like Mike Caro, who can not like a certain style for personal reasons, but realizes how much craft went into it,,,and that it is great for that kind of music.

Nothing's dead except for people not having any recorded music to listen to. (except for some tribes and whoever else may not have electricity or batteries.

Songwriters are in films, TV shows, plays, Mog, and many satellite radio stations, besides whatever pop stations, jazz stations, etc. Go to any coffee house. They are packed in waiting to play their songs for people being there wanting to hear them, for the most part.

12RS, you're writing in circles.

There will be crap music in every era. There will also be great music in every era.

The difference is - it's not YOUR era when you choose not to roll with change. It's that simple. Music evolves. I remember being told exactly how it evolves while in music school. What I learned about the cycles of musical styles was interesting. What I didn't think I'd see was how fast it would change through cycles. Based on what I learned, we're due for a huge rollback to simplicity. And if some of the things I've heard recently are any indication - it's already starting to happen.

Another reason why it may be harder for you to find your great songs, is due to the incredible amount of competition there is. Comparing the population from the 60's to the population today is only going to disappoint you since it's more than doubled and the amount of people attempting to be musician's has also increased dramatically.

Here's a little story from last weekend. I was hanging out in a resort town during a very popular arts festival with some friends. I had my guitar with me while we were out on a plaza during lunch. They pestered me to play some songs. I pulled out my guitar and started playing. There were a bunch of people who were probably of your age bracket 12RS sitting around as well. One of my friends was near a group of them and they turned to tell him how brilliant they thought I was and wondered if I was a professional. He replied to them that I was a professional musician to which they said it was very obvious. The point of that is, they weren't closed minded. They loved it and picked up a CD and that wasn't even my intent while hanging with friends.

Additionally, several of my friends asked the question "How it is that you can sound exactly the same live as you do recorded?" My response was, when you're really good, there isn't much of a difference between live and recording. It's all a performance and it's all about the song and how you want to present it.

I think the real difference today is that songwriting and production can be and usually is specialized - you even touched on it (songwriting). However, that does not mean there aren't great songs today.

BTW, the Beatles are mentioned. Guess what? They used every ounce of technology they had at that time to create those masterpieces of pop. That still happens with artists today. The difference is, there is way more technology to choose from now, just like there are way more artists to choose from that use it.

Why spend so much time worrying about where your era went? Again, I implore those who are so negative on change to start writing something that sparks the craze for tomorrow. Prove it by putting your songwriting where your mouth is.

p.s. despite the grammatical faux pas about 2006 [and I disagree, it's not a great article - to me it's an opinionated editorial by someone who is stuck in the 60's and 70's]. "Crazy" is still a great song. American Idiot is still a great album. Panic At The Disco writes some really great pop rock songs that if you'd study them, you'd see they're not always pumping along in 4/4 even though they feel like they are.

No,but some of it smells that way.It's all about what you like.There are so many ways to craft a song and all will and should not agree.I sure would hate it if everyone crafted a song the same way!Songwriting is very much alive in my ears!Mike

Why do the answers always come back as "if you dont roll with the changes, or if you dont do writers nights, etc

Im not talking about ME. Im talking about MY observation of the state of songwriting. Im not at the end of my rope looking for encouragement, lol.

I think Mark Kaufmann is the only person so far who actually understands what Im trying to say.

Of course there are songwriters, and there will be songs needed.

Doesnt mean the people care how hard you worked on your craft or appreciate anything except a kick ass recording.

As writers we spend alot of time thinking about meter,rhyme, structure, plot and twist, when in todays world nobody is paying attention.

It is not dead just fast asleep. There are a few good songs written nowadays but the bulk of pop music is just production driven beats and fx with some words thrown in almost as an afterthought. Once upon a time artists looked for a great song then a great arrangement and recording followed. Nowadays they seem to only concentrate on the production and arrangement....stripped down very few new songs stand up as great songs (lyrics and melody) in their own right. As I say most pop songs are nursery rhymes or playground chants set to a beat......where are the fantastic melodies and great lyrics we once had? Cannot fault the production nowadays just wish they had something half decent to produce and a band plus a singer worth listening to. Yes we had some crap back in the bad old days but the bulk of the music was innovative and groundbreaking. Now it is mostly all crap. We have been bombarded with so much of it we have now accepted it as the standard to aspire to. It is hardly any wonder why so many folk want to write songs with the bar set so low....and any good looking tone deaf kid can get to be a huge popstar on reality TV......It is a shame that good music is sacrificed for looks and image.

DRS I think you're overlooking some of the facts...
You can't lump "people" into one huge group....anymore than you can generalize about different races, or classes of people.
and songs serve many purposes these days. (as if this was ever really different)

yes there are lots of as you call them "semi"-songs out there with kick-ass productions... and if I'm in a dancing mood...that's what I want too.... give me a rhythm I can roll with and I'm in heaven.
there's also a lot of that music that is mainly used as a background. folks aren't really listening to all the words... (may sing them rotely...automatically..but haven't really paid attention to them)
That's just not the purpose of those songs.

on the other hand if you go into a smaller venue.... and since her name was brought up... lets put Joanne Lurgio up at the mic... the audience is far different. they are most likely paying rapt attention... because she writes songs you can relate to...songs that make you laugh, cry, feel anger, joy...

there are venues like that all across the country...and in them good songwriting is alive and well. (okay...there's a lot of bad writing in some of these places too.) and people are buying it! downloading it! stealing it! all of that....

as others are saying.... it's all subjective...
you can share a melodic line or a piece of poetry and say it's incredible... and I'll say "it's junk! my dog could have written that!" or the opposite.
who is right? we both are and we both aren't
If a song moves you... it's done it's job. if it makes you think , it works.
and yes...we here are quite biased... and tend to notice the good ones more)
there was a clasic song that my community group sang last spring. (Rogers and Hammerstein...I think) and at the end of one of the lines was a clever twist of a rhyme from the previous line. (don't recall it now) most of the group stumbled over it each time trying to learn it. By the second time through... I had it...and was saying to the others "what a great rhyme!" yeah...we notice... and appreciate....
BUT..... we are not the only ones... I think you underestimate the value of a good song these days... (or maybe you've spent too much time talking to those who don't)

or so I think

+ 1.

Well, Personal tastes play a role, but im not talking about what I like and what i dont, Im talking about songwriting as a whole.

I learned some time ago that, just because people like something, doesnt make it great.

Not many people like classical music, but to deny it's greatness is foolish. and To think that because you prefer Brittany Spears, that she is a better artist than Mozart, you just prefer her. There is no contest there, Mozart destroys Brittany Spears in everything BUT, entertainment. Not an opinion a fact, from a craft standpoint

A jazz musician who practices his life away, understands that not many people will acknowledge him for his dedication and his hard work, he does it because of love of his craft.

Just because songs are used on TV or Movies, or in cheesy pop songs, it doesnt mean that songwriting as an art form is flourishing, just means a subset of songwriting can make some money.

Art has no monetary value by itself, the market put value on it.

If you goal is to get a song on TV for example, the craft of songwriting doesnt play much of a role, just being a song technician.

I agree there are all kinds of songs, all types of purposes, no one size fits all, but the craft of song songwriting is ONE thing, not 100.

Bruno Mars can never and should never win a songwriting contest, when the criteria is craft, if the criteria is fun pop song, we have a winner!

I agree with Jody that the wheel just keeps spinning, creating different sets of musical values for the times. Just as beards are now popular with young men, things come and go, with different meanings. So even if we're just talking mainstream pop, I would answer, "No, songwriting is not dead." Anything you consider great songwriting is likely to become popular again within weeks...it will just look a little different.

good read.

Actually I find that, in art, it is precisely people liking something that makes it "great."

I agree

Dont know about that one Mike.

That would mean miley cyrus is great. or taylor Swift.

They are popular and there are varied reasons but they are not great singers, not great performers, not great writers. Many people like it, that doesnt mean that they are great.

Rhianna has sold more records than the eagles.

Actors dont base their opinion of other actors by how much their movies draw, they judge by the talent and devotion to their craft.

FANS view greatness by success. Artists dont or shouldnt.

It's like letting people who know nothing about dancing vote on who is the best dancer. they vote by what they like.

I’ll probably get some heads shaking here…

Actually, speaking only of music, i.e., the written note, most of today’s music is based on the Romantic Era - latter half of the 19th Century (from Tchaikovsky to Rachmaninoff). Not much has changed melodically or harmonically.

The main difference is the technological factor. Technology adds flavor to the production of “Pop” music. Still the same music from yesteryear, but dressed in different clothes (save the experimental kind – 12 tone, quarter tone, etc.).

Also keep in mind, a large share of today’s music is entertainment based, not artistic based. The masses want to see and hear a show, not so much artistic cleverness.

That’s not to say serious music isn’t being composed anymore. Just that much of the artistic variety attracts smaller audiences.

Then again… maybe it’s because I’ve jammed my brain for over a half century with layer upon layer of musical matter. Difficult for me to hear “new” beyond the technology.

John

Well we really only have 12 notes to work with, I think the only thing that can get different is rhythm.

I agree with you, I havent heard anything new in my lifetime. Everybody copies each other, the great ones copy from the greats.

Picasso once said that good artists copy, great artists steal.

Some of the more original artists I have seen over the years would be Prince, although he stole alot from James Brown, Stevie Wonder,
maybe some of stings stuff. u2 had something different, they werent able to play covers, so they learned how to write their own songs! lol, so they came up with a unique sound.

No, but C, is always going to be the go to key.

Rap I suppose had something new about it, heavy metal took the blues out of hard rock and went somewhere slightly different.

As far as something sounding out of this earth, not alot.

Ravi Shankar was sort of original.

But they say in rock and roll that if you are not borrowing from the stones u aint doing it right.

We might need a whole new set of musical guidlines. Somebody to invent something that doesnt involve the blues or borrow from roots music.

Maybe then people will start buying music again.

Let me add Eddie Van Halens guitar playing.

That was kind of mind blowing at the time, still fascinates me.

I have not read all of this so pardon me if I missed something important. You use Bob Dylan to illustrate good songwriters of a past era and rightly so. The truth is though that there were thousands of terrible songs written back then (Bob wrote some of them) but the ones you mention are the survivors of 40-45 years of natural selection. You don't remember the crappy ones that became one hit wonders in the sixties (Snoopy vs the Red Baron comes to mind).

The songwriters of today that you mention may not be the survivors 45 years from now - but there are plenty of good songs being written today that will survive 45 years (assuming that humans still have ears in 45 years).

What I am saying is that the bad songs of yesteryear have been filtered out while the bad songs of today are on the radio along with the good ones.

I dont disagree. Liking a song though, doesnt make it a well crafted song.

If I hear Louie Louie on the radio, I aint going anywhere until its done. if I hear Wild thing, Or Any songs of that ilk, I listen and enjoy it.

That doesnt mean I think they are great crafted songs like the sound of silence, or eleanor rigby.

But today there seems to be all Louie Louie's and not many Sounds of silence.

And what kind of songwriting expertise do we need to compose louie louie? a couple of six packs should do it!

and there arent many louie louies that are as good as that one around today.

Well, there's great and there's great. I can go to a diner and have a great cup of coffee, or I can go to a famous restaurant in Paris and have a great food experience.

When I speak of great music, I mean music that has been regarded over time by many people as being "great." Much of this is affected by the listeners themselves who have been influenced by political, social and cultural pressures. Much of it is nudged by ad hominem viepoints. So, no, Miley Cyrus or Justin Beiber do not have the perspective of time to be considered great, if indeed they ever are. However many folks thought of in their day as "pop fluff" have later been judged to be "great." Artists such as Gilbert and Sullivan, Tschaikovsky, and Liszt were all proclaimed lightweights by their contemporary critics. A good case in point is Norman Rockwell, the painter. In his lifetime he was thought of by the art community as an illustrator and not at all as a serious artist. Today art critics have changed their minds about him.

Also, most, nearly all of our current "greats" have been very popular. Elvis, Johnny Cash, Louis Armstrong, Dylan, Marilyn Monroe....so were Beethoven, Bach and Mozart, all superstars in their day.

I'm not saying Beiber et al will ever achieve that, but I do remember the Beatles singing "yeah yeah yeah" and "I wanna hold your hand" long before they were singing their intellectual stuff like "She Came Through the Bathroom Window."

But while I can't think of one "great" who was not liked by a lot of people I can think of a lot who were also derided by a lot as well.

HiDee DRS!

Like Mike, I've lived thru Many a Music Era already...'40's thru Present-Day...& for Ancient Ol' Me, my Heros have always been The Stones & Frank Sinatra. (Maybe 'cuz they were a bit more-macho than The Beatles, I dunno...) Add in Dylan & Jimi Hendrix..yeah, my Roots are Exposed.

However, I think every Decade since the 50's has had some Great Songwriting/Lots of it's just a measure of how a person's Musical Preferences tend to bend..or break..over the Decades.

I kinda like Music where I DON'T have to be Too-Intellectual about How Does It Make Me Feel...So I'd consider Dolly Parton's "I Will Always Love You"...to be Great Songwriting...in the same breath as MC Hammer's "Can't Touch This" (Which, think the Groove was pirated from Rick James "Superfreak"...no?)

Hmmm...How 'bout Freddy Mercury/Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody"...FUN Lyrics/Quite-Danceable... NOT Overly-Intellectual...but..betcha it's still considered a Great One a Century from now. (Of COURSE, Not-by-Everybody...it's a Taste sorta Thing...) ;-)>

Fast-Forwarding (& missing the Rap/Hip-Hop Era..with maybe the Exception of Eminem..mostly 'cuz I confess to not being Tuned-In Much to it/Just Wasn't)...Yeah, Brad Paisley pens Great Ones...I like SOME of Toby Keith's (Including Red-Solo-Cup...currently)...

Hunter Hayes (assisted by Troy Verges) "Wanted" feels like the Latest "Great Song"..of-late. Lyrics/Melody/Production/that "Sincerity" Factor...KILLER...(Tho, in Real-Life, heh..he DIDN'T Get The Gal with it/Bummer, eh?) ;-)>

Lady GaGa's won-me-over with a 2009 CD I snagged for 50-cents at a flea market, recently.."The Fame Monster"...with this cut:
"ALLEHANDRO"... (Which, is supposedly a bit of a parody on ABBA's "Fernando", I've read.) Nah, it's not Overly-Deep..&, OK, I guess it's the "Superficial/Killer Production" You Aren't Fond Of...But Gloriously, it's What Pop needs to have MORE OF...JMO!!! (That Babe packs MORE Hooks-per-Track than seems Humanly-Possible.) You'll be humming the Title for Hours-Afterwards...

Waal..those are my Nominations for 2 Recent "Great" Songs...one's a "Let Me Love You" Number...the other..a "Let Me Forget You" Jewel.

Let me know what You Think...eh?

Best Wishes/Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

PS: Mike..what's that "L-7" line MEAN in "Wooly-Bully", anyways???

(Yeah, STILL Stupid-&-Dumbfounded, after All These Years..heh!)

I think what you might see as a downturn in the craft of songwriting is really just an over supply of songs available to choose from. the sheer number of people now creating and selling music - compared to say 1960 - is mind blowing. the big label money men have no concept or desire to know what might be written well - if it sells then it's good. so what you hear as a part of national or international musical releases is no indication of the quality of songwriting around.

try listening to every artist in a single genre on CDbaby. you will hear many great songs - and many more not so great - but it will take you a very long time to wade through it all.

the cream does not always rise to the top - sometimes it's the scum that rises.

Songwriting is as good as it's ever been. Better in some cases since there is so much more music from which to draw inspiration.

Today's music is like today's fast foods.Made for fast turnover, to be consumed to ease a hunger, to make a fast buck but with no staying power.Fast food is not healthy for your body and today's music is not healthy for your mind. You body and mind can take a certain amount of it and still function and recover,but too much of it can harm you for life.

Good Post.

Great is of course, subjective. There has always been great stuff and fluff. But songs that pass the test as being well crafted songs, is what Im talking about.

If not one person likes a particular song, somebody who teaches songwriting can still listen or look at the lyric and say "wow, what a masterful piece of songwriting" just nobody wants to hear it.

You see it every year at the grammy awards, greatness is measured by public reception and record sales, not by the art or craft.

I dont know if I'd use the word "intellectual" it doesnt have to be fancu or smart or philosophical.

Does it demonstrate an understanding of the craft of songwriting, techniques used, understanding what they are doing as opposed to just putting words and music together.

In reality, my favorites are not well crafted intellectual songs, nor do I write well crafted intellectual songs, all of the time.

Im just proposing the question. songwriting as a craft, is it a lost art form? yeah im talking pop music, but to me, if great crafted music is being made, and not being heard, that proves that the average joe doesnt want it. That was the original point I was making.

They want hooky, beaty songs, not well crafted songs.

What would shelia davis teach her students about todays hits?

She's probably looking for work since her services are no longer helpful to anyone looking to market their music.

To me it dont matter, I like different music for different reasons, if not another timeless classic is written, we have enough already.

Really what it comes down to is do the types of things people critique on forums matter as far as landing a song somewhere.