JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Problem I foresee with ai

John Lawrence Schick
I don’t see much difference between udio and a college student using AI to generate a term paper.

Mike Zaneski
That's the main difference between a faked term paper and AI music production: with AI music production, most folks aren't judging you on "how it came to be" --they are simply responding to what they hear. Unless you go out of your way to go, "hey I "wrote" this, what do you think?" --then they might inquire about your process in manifesting said music.

Mike I believe, fundamentally, they are the same from the perspective of giving Music AI and College paper AI a set of parameters to produce an output with only basic knowledge of the subject by either of the individuals. Maybe that was the only point John may have been making but hey, John, jump in...LOL

Don’t get me wrong, I am a big fan of AI because it will do great good for mankind, while it is being used by some to do great harm at the same time..that is not the fault of AI..pretty well everything fits into the good/evil hat

What I find interesting is we seem to be talking about AI as if is a living, breathing entity. It is just computing in the year 2024. No different than UNIVAC 1...just a billion times faster...

Where I think AI could be great is for lyricists who today may never get there lyrics heard because they can’t afford the cost or don’t play an instrument...what a boon it could be for them...to me that’s a big plus for music

My music partner in crime, Jon, moved to SoCal last year and we will do some stuff by zoom but I’m giving thought to working on stuff myself using AI

“Ever since they started making them there Motorwagons it’s tough to find a good blacksmith”

Steve

Good to hear from you, Steve!
The main problem I have with "AI Music is analogous to faked term paper" is one involves accountability to another person (you and teacher) while the other, does not. AI music made w/paid subscription becomes, by default, "yours" and there is no teacher to give you an "F" cuz you didn't write it yourself. That would be a specific circumstance involving you being in a music class and being asked by teacher to write and demo an original piece of music!


I see this as a general tendency for humans to anthropomorphize but also a bit because AI is moving towards sentience.


You touch upon one fantastic use case for sure. Lyricists can easily test out their lyrics in 33 second samples--perfect for a verse or chorus or bridge...and "test" if the lyrics are singable, if no more. Feed Udio some Wordsworth? Wonderful vocal phrases issue forth, mostly because the "custom lyric" had impeccable meter. Then one can either "extend" the piece in Udio and ultimately then add the work into ones DAW for further creative stuff.

Yes meter matters when ruining it through, but what is meter , what really matters is how the lyrics sing, even if meter is off.

And I'm not sure if it knows if you wrote 'howwwww long has this been going on'

It doesn't know to hold how

If you sing it like that I'm not sure udio understands

It doesn't under stands double hook... I tried one title called those are the brakes. It mentioned breaks but I think it thought I spelled brakes wrong .

It didn't really get inuendo, or irony

You have to do that stuff yourself.

But it did a good job using my lyrics as fuel.

The lyrics this thing writes are not that good. Decent at basic atuff

n regards to term papers , take your really smart kids they will still get better grades .

But it may one day be possible to a cross all ai records to see if it's stolen.

Some genius may invent tech to do that

Excellent point. Though, if it sounds good, the meter is probably not off.
It is just not strictly syllable-istic. (might have invented that word)


No doubt about it.

If I could sing a chorus into my phone with a metronome, then upload it to an AI generator with options for genre... THAT would be a great tool!

I've been looking for something like that for decades . Cause all my music is in my head.

It be great to sing your melody and lyric into a program and it creates an arrangement based on that. And keep running it through till u find one u like.

Same with riffs sing it and say I want sax to play that.

I think some midi programs have touched on the latter

I'm still reading this thread. Just nothing new I can add via my prejudiced brain.

John

Ba humbug

This is funny. The title is how to create a full song, but that's not what it explains. If you look at all the comments they all say same thing. It creates different verses etc

But what disturbing is all those people thinking they SHOULD be able to write songs

Thanks for posting that youtube link Fdemetrio.

I continue to experiment with Udio and Suno.

I'm finding that the better the lyric, the better AI does in the music and emoting of the song. So, I run into all these crummy takes by Udio, and I say...garbage in, garbage out....try to write a better lyric...you know?

So when I hear a very bad line of my lyric sung by the AI singer...I go wow that line really does suck!

Any way...idea here. Could you and I comandeer a thread in Lyric Feedback Forum 2....and trade back and forth creations? Just for fun. Emphasis on re-writes etc.
Say max 5 each to start.

What do you say?
Bill

Sounds like cool idea. Although right now I'm maxed out of creations. Im obsessive so I'll run it through 50 times till I hear one I like ..

But I think I know what it is and what it isn't. you can't really use any of it cause it sounds like every hit song I've ever heard. And while that's sometimes my goal, it does me no good, in and of itself

I think I kicked some ass with it fir a while. Can use as a reference.

But there's no reason why you can't post your work in MP3 maybe I'll join u down the road

But I'll listen and comment just be forth coming with what your doing. This is what I did, this is how I got there, this is what ai did .

Should be fine

Fdemetrio said:

But there's no reason why you can't post your work in MP3 maybe I'll join u down the road

But I'll listen and comment just be forth coming with what your doing. This is what I did, this is how I got there, this is what ai did .

Should be fine

Bill says:
Ok great. I'll break down the process when I post. good idea. I favor the Lyric Feedback forum though... more of a work in progress place.
I'm cautious. But Brian W. seems very open minded in his opinions...so good thing.

If a person sent in a song with lyrics already written and a rough voice/guitar demo of the tune, will you get back a good version of a finished song as you would doing the same process with a real demo studio in Nashville.

What happened to the joy of songwrting and playing a guitar ? I'm not going to worry about robots. I imagine it'll be genre in itself in the future like any other genre , Battle of the best robot song . But humans will still be writing and singing songs .

But you're showing too much faith that people can hear a song without a full demo.

Used to be maybe, now they want it to be so done that all they need to do is have their artist sing over it

Same could be said for drummers. Hey I don't care if software can play drums , I love playing them.

For songwriters it won't change where it's likely to change is the listener.

I haven't heard a great song on radio since Gavin McGraw i don't wanna be cane out.

So it's about the singer right now not the song

That's why you will hear ai on radio cause the real thing is not much better. Just market the singer ...

Until music gets better ai will be there

There's great indies who nobody hears though

I'm using session players on all my songs including drummers , So I'm good for the music business community lol. the least of my worries in life are robots .

My prediction is at some point live music will make a comeback

People will not respect ai but when they see real musicians playing there's an acknowledgement

The concert pianist will still get people going to see them

Well said!

John

The issue as most things revolves around money.

You can't fault somebody with no money using ai, where they can have a demo in hand i n a few minutes

That's a powerful sticking point

Demos cost money lots of it

Demos in Nashville use a few robots , I think some still use union session players , I haven't talked to them in awhile . Session players aren't that pricey , but yes in comes down to songwriters budgets on using machines or session players . In my case its artists songs , Demos are usually the lingo on pitching songs to artists , I won't open that can of worms and bore people. I'm not really sure what it cost for majors and million dollar producers to cut a song , I bet its very pricey .

Yes, and you can't fault somebody with no money for shoplifting. Anything goes if you've no money.

John

But using udio is not illegal.

Probably better to think "right or wrong", rather than "legal or illegal".

John

John your music didn't appear out of thin air, if there was no classical music who knows what you'd be writing.

What about the ultra talented composers who never get to do what you do. They view other musicians the same way your viewing ai.

The talent in this world is insane, how many think hey im one of the best composers in the world, why can't i get a tvl placement

Cause that's how it goes

Sorry Fde, I don't understand your logic???

John

I would say a sync placement is possible with connections, I haven't been involved in it for quiet a few months , Maybe AI is involved , no idea really. I know a buddy of mine who has songs on Netflix , He studied for a couple of years on the genre with gurus , its a whole different animal than radio songs.

.you don't like ai cause u feel it reduces what you do. Allowing anyone to do it.

Users of ai are getting ideas from it

Your getting ideas from classical music you didn't create tv music .

But there's always people out there better. Sune who have not had your success.

There saying ai, who cares I'm a great composer and can't get any work. Why is John getting it.

Another apples & oranges analogy.

Hey Everett. NL is a beautiful province. I was born in Liverpool, NS and also lived in Corner Brook and St Johns for many school years. My wife and I just saw a great live concert of Mathew Byrne here in Victoria...fantastic singer performer.

Anyway, when you say "sent in a song" did you mean send it to an AI program? And then get back a good demo? Excellent comment I think. You hit it out of the park.

That is not what you get with UDIO I can tell you. What you get with UDIO, the quick answer: FANTASY. huh.

Udio softwares best application for me so far is translating a poem/lyric rhymer thing I've scribbled, into what AI guesses could be the music. I listen to it. I go wow, that is so bad. So I set to rewrite the words....and try that one. Better. It is good as a feedback tool only.
Bill

The majority of it sucks, occasionally something great comes out. You have to try a bunch of takes, and tweaking the description and style.

Knowing what you want to hear is a skill

But id be leery of using it for anything other than a reference

It's limited you find a great verse but the chorus sucks etc

And you can't form Full songs

Hi Bill:
I agree, I think NL is second only to B.C. when it comes to natural beauty. B.C. has the grandeur of the mountains, our mountains are small in comparison but we have a rugged coastland, rolling hills for miles after miles, our trees are a lot smaller than the trees of B.C. but the mixture of varieties look beautiful in the fall. I think our real beauty is the people, especially around the small communities where people have not been jaded by society of big city life. I love the peace and quiet of the laid-back country style living over the fast city life. Our cities are small in population compared to mainland cities and not near the crime and drug problem, but we are getting there.
I am nearing the end of my writing life so I don't expect I'll be needing many more demos, they are getting too expensive anyway. Most of my writing now and for the past ten year or more have been in the Gospel genre. I register them with CCLI in rough demo style with just me singing and playing guitar, and many of these songs get used by churches from Australia to the USA and all points in between. I am not getting rich but I am making money and not spending money for demos. My songs are being heard and the word is being spread, that is the main thing a songwriter looks for. Money is nice but has never been my driving force.

That sounds great Everett. Nice to hear about NL. Cheers!
Bill

Doing Nashville demos is only the fantasy of being in the music business, If no one cuts the song , its a song on your hard drive you can not promote as a singer songwriter. My guess with AI ..you'll have more songwriters using that to pitch songs , I really need to get over not being able to sell 600 songs to Nashville. lol

it'll be more of a barrage of songs thrown at artists . Maybe thrown at AI artists on a new genre , the best robot song , country , pop , R@B ect ect .
As AI gets more advanced say talking on Tic Toc Vids ,(which by the way kids do social media ) You'll get big followings for Sofia the robot and her music . Well just a guess on the future . I guess it could be very exciting time in the music industry .

Oh no doubt. Everybody is going to think they are songwriters. As Everette says earlier though it's the same as letting a demo company set your lyric to music and recorded.

Different in that the music is generated. So who owns what

Right now it's obvious to me what's ai or not, but this is a cheap user friendly version.

I bet the top studios and artists will have stuff that blows this away.

Again un leveling the playing field.

The market of stuff I've heard from just the regular joe is not very good.

Having the ear for what is good and what isn't doesn't change with this.

I bet the top studios and artists will have stuff that blows this away, No doubt there , I'm sure million dollar studios are aware of AI , like they watched streaming services blow up their net profits . they'll adjust is my guess on AI. There's a studio in Nashville that wants 40k for demo with A++++++ session players and producer , That be hard hit when publishers say no on your song , But I'm over it all on publishers and playing with majors , well kinda lol. I'm not going to lose sleep over AI , I'll produce songs using session players , I'm not going beat majors with million dollar budgets . I'm sure somebody will be suing somebody over AI with deep pockets . I imagine what i pay is lunch money at a million dollar studio , Maybe. My conclusion who thrive in the music business are prodigies. like Prince . Ashley Gorely.. 52 hits is a prodigy. He had his own publishing company and doing great , Now he's a staff writer for Sony , why is that ? probably money.

Id rather use real musicians too. I mean Rock n roll without real guitars? It ain't rock and roll any more. I'm sure other genres feel the same way, except pop hip hop and dance, which it never mattered what was used.

But I think if you remove the human being from rock or country it's not the same. It's made by humans for humans

Perhaps it will be a good thing for people who really know their craft. It will point to the humans making better music.

The day when this thing writes elenor rigby, all by itself without any human interaction, will be the death of real music.

I think we'll still need humans to celebrate and still need a human pov

I think live music will make a comeback

Like a calculator can do a complex math problem fast, but it's still impressive to see a human doing it in their head

This is something I hope never goes away. Not the biggest fan of any of them, although I think acdc is the greatest HARD rock band ever .
But these guys getting back to the basics, loved it!

writes Elenor Rigby ? it probably will , This AI is in baby steps , little I know of it .
that's a form of AI , a vocal enhancer , But real BGVS will be added , cuz I'm no Celine Dion , which is very low self esteem doing every song
So real session players , i don't want to use AI robots , I hate them on phones lol, and AI emails

https://hearthis.at/elvis-nash-xk/piano-3-1-1-1-1/Klh/

ha ha Slash is great , beat that robots, Well maybe robots need 20 years of drugs to beat Slash lol , Rehab and all that

Damn robots. The piano dynamics all cut off from quantizing. The singer sounds robotic too keep plugging away

AI is mentioned cuz I used a harmomizer on chorus , It will be replaced with real BGVS
4 players , Piano , Hammond , Violins , And bass player
No Robots , I like hiring session players
So better mix when BGVS are added , And sell cds ,
not feeling the melody ? I guess its in the groove. I'm human

Yeah probably cause your not feeling the melody, alot of people sound like robots

The piano is quantized you can tell, you may not probably know what they did. But if that's a player playing live I'll eat my hat

Doesn't matter, just stop saying robots every chance you get. Try udio see what you get out of it

I'm not going to use udio . I will hire real musicians. Of course he's playing live , We talked and saw him.
I don't hire just anybody F, will I use udio in the future , I doubt it , I go to studios , I don't even deal with Pro Tools.
I like interaction with producers , Let them deal with it , I write em sing em some producing , Let them deal with the rest. I've spend hours and hours in studios on mixing , We go over it I leave , I just get in their way on bs on whatever , They need time alone to mix them right , not me yakking on Trump , or whatever

Never Say Never Ben.
I've had an idea for a small town anthem for a while, but I can't find a melody for it. I was going to screw around with udio for a while and see if I come across something I could make work. The other benefit is that I'm out rattling around Texas on a motorcycle with only a Chromebook and I can probably use it on that. Which is a benefit.

Don't have a guitar but I can still write Dom songs.

Well I always eat my words , i'll probably be the udio king in 2026. Oh i'm green jealous... rattling around Texas on a motorcycle

One tip I can give you is to keep running it through, it can take hours to find what you want. Don't accept the first thing it spits out

Sincerely.
Frustated

Dom...
Not looking for it to complete me a melody. Just hopeful that it will send me in a good direction that would not have occurred to me otherwise.

.

Still, lol ,it will take a while. Trust me