JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum The US Bounced A Check

Hey Brian:

Given that my post was a "rant", your response was very measured. Thanks for cutting me some slack.

Before I get into your comments let me make one thing clear. I have a great job and am well compensated for it. I am not griping about being an underpaid worker. My rant was addressed to people who think the ranks of government workers are filled with overpaid and under-performing leeches.



No, I'm not suggesting that. I don't know what most state employees are like - I only interact with a couple hundred within my immediate vicinity and am speaking only from my own experience. I know what a lazy person looks like and there isn't a single one in this group. Is this typical? Probably not - the nature of my line of work is that it draws people who tend to push themselves from within harder than others are likely to push them. We are also highly competitive with each other - which pushes everyone to up their game.



I haven't seen the union protect anyone. Before a faculty receives tenure, they work for a six year period in which they can be dismissed "without cause". Meaning dismissed for no reason. I have seen this happen and it's never been because a person wasn't performing. Usually it happened to folks who were hired to work in one direction and then a new administration came along and decided they didn't like that direction. The union can't help these people.

If a person does receive tenure, it really doesn't offer the protections that people think. It's certainly no guarantee of permanent employment. For instance, it doesn't protect you against lay-offs. And if you break the rules of the organization or don't perform your duties, you can be dismissed. Even tenured faculty are subject to annual evaluations and there is a post tenure review process that can result in the dismissal of tenured faculty for weak performance.

So what does tenure do? Pretty much, it means they have to have a reason to fire you. Practically speaking, this really isn't much different from the private sector where theoretically a person can be fired for no reason. Practically though, it doesn't work that way because of lawyers.



I snipped a lot of your stuff - people can read it in your original post. Actually, the stuff you posted was very enlightening to me. I was going to admit that my comparison between me and my cohorts was comparing apples to oranges. But I'm finding that my comparison is actually much more fair than the comparisons that people in your sources are making.

For instance, in the fact checking link that you gave, it is suggested that these comparisons are done simply by comparing the average salary and benefits of a state worker to the average salary and benefits of a private sector employee. But they apparently are not correcting for education level! For a state to use information like this to argue that state workers (who on the average must have more education to even get a state job) are overpaid is ludicrous. It's like saying doctors are overpaid because they make more than garbage collectors.

My comparison between me and my friends is not exact because, while we are all engineers, they work in industry and I am an educator. Different job functions. But at least I am comparing us on the basis of equal education level.

According to one link you shared, public sector employees are actually less compensated than private sector employees with the same education level.



I agree with the first part of what he says. Yes, 25 years ago I elected for deferred compensation. A lower salary in exchange for longer term benefits such as a pension. His last part may or may not be true but it doesn't apply to me. If I correct for inflation, I'm making about the same in my rank as someone in the same rank did 25 years ago. The way I did better was to start in a lower rank and move up to higher ranks based on my achievements. That's what all of the people in my line do - it's the way the system is supposed to work.

Again, no complaints on my part - other than a rant against anyone that thinks my compensation has increased much faster than folks in the private sector.



Again, I can't speak to the average state employee - only to my own experience. I work many more hours per week than my private sector friends. On paper, we might work the same - but not in practice. It's not a totally fair comparison - I have much more autonomy in my work than they do. For a large chunk of my time I am able to do what I want - as long as there is a benefit to the state. For instance, I can work in any area I wish and attack any research problem I like. But I have to secure funding to do it and the state gets 49% of that. No complaints though - I get to do what I want. And that means even though I am working harder, it's harder to consider it work

Days off? We get the major holidays off. Hard to believe that we get more vacation than the private sector though - unless they get zero days of paid vacation. Yeah, you read that right - zero days of paid vacation. People think that we get summers off - LOL. We get summers off only if we don't want to be paid.



This is a whole separate issue - that of privatization. Many conservative governors want to get rid of ALL state employees - not just cheap ones. Their argument is that people will pay less in taxes. I don't buy it - people will still need those services. They may spend less in taxes but they won't spend less money. They'll probably spend more because they will be paying companies operating at a profit instead of government. Yes, I know, the theory is that competition between private corporations will lower costs. In practice, I don't buy it - because there isn't real competition - companies will be selected for privatization for political reasons.



Yeah, that may have been some hyperbole on my part - it was a rant after all.



I'm not taking anyone's tax dollars either. I'm earning them. If they don't think they are getting their money's worth, they can fire me. They would be stupid for doing so because they are getting their money's worth - but it's their choice.

However, if they wish to go after money that I've already earned, that is a different issue.



I don't belong to the union. Florida does not require its employees to belong. However, I think unions, even in the private sector, are important. Have there been abuses? Sure. But what would the country have looked like if they didn't exist? A scary place....

I don't belong to the union because what they offer me is not something I have needed. My line of work is such that I can find employment elsewhere if my situation becomes intolerable. I agree with you that it should be a choice to join and I made mine.



No, I probably won't. The state is requiring us to start contributing to our own pensions - as you point out, it's a small amount. It's a small pay cut but given the suffering that others have gone through, it's very minor.

My concern is in other directions. For instance, last year there was discussion in the Florida Legislature about changing the pension calculations. Right now, our pensions are based on some percent of the last five years we work. The percent is based on how many total years you have in. Last year there was a discussion to keep the percent the same but base it on the average of ALL years of service. Seriously? You want to recalculate my pension based on what I made 30 years before? Before accumulated inflation of 100%? When I have been working for 25 years based on a different set of rules?

You are correct that this got shut down - for the reasons you state. But if people are thinking about it, it can come up again, particularly under the governor we have now.



I agree with you - as long as it is not a false choice. Modifying a pension plan to make it sustainable is the only realistic choice. Modifying a plan so that you can free up money to give tax breaks to corporations is a little less honest.

Thanks again - you would have been justified in ranting right back at me. Instead, you provided a thought-provoking response.

Scott