JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Media Coverage Of Michael Jackson

It brought in mediocracy and nothing great and memorable. "Hey Jude" is memorable.

Like I said it's your opinion. To many people who grew up in the '80s Thriller is much more memorable then Hey Jude ever will be.
For that genre it was a watershed album. Melodies. Production.

Hello again. It's so funny because I grew up in love with the Beatles but for our daughter, it was "New Kids On The Block." Our daughter had her opinion and I had mine. Ben, you have yours. (I don't have any new pictures in the computer, Ben, but will get some soon)

For Michael Jackson, here's what the worldwide statistics say about "Thriller:"

Thriller is the sixth studio album by American recording artist Michael Jackson. The album was released on November 30, 1982 by Epic Records as the follow-up to Jackson's critically and commercially successful 1979 album Off the Wall. Thriller explores similar genres to those of Off the Wall, including funk, disco, soul, soft rock, R&B and pop. However, Thriller's lyrics deal with generally darker themes, including paranoia and the supernatural.

With a production budget of $750,000, recording sessions took place between April and November 1982 at Westlake Recording Studios in Los Angeles, California. Assisted by producer Quincy Jones, Jackson wrote four of Thriller's nine tracks. Following the release of the album's first single "The Girl Is Mine", some observers assumed Thriller would only be a minor hit record. With the release of the second single "Billie Jean", the album topped the charts in many countries. At its peak, the album was selling a million copies a week worldwide. In just over a year, Thriller became—and currently remains—the best-selling album of all time. Sales are estimated to be between 47–109 million copies sold worldwide. Seven of the album's nine songs were released as singles, and all reached the top 10 on the Billboard Hot 100. The album won a record-breaking eight Grammy Awards at the 1984 Grammys. Despite numerous five-star reviews, Thriller was not universally praised.

Thriller cemented Jackson's status as one of the predominant pop stars of the late 20th century, and enabled him to break down racial barriers via his appearances on MTV and meetings with President Ronald Reagan at the White House. The album was one of the first to use music videos as successful promotional tools—the videos for Thriller, "Billie Jean" and "Beat It" all received regular rotation on MTV. In 2001, a special edition issue of the album was released, which contains additional audio interviews, a demo recording and the song "Someone In the Dark", which was a Grammy-winning track from the E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial storybook.[9] In 2008, the album was reissued again as Thriller 25, containing re-mixes that feature contemporary artists, a previously unreleased song and a DVD.

Thriller ranked number 20 on Rolling Stone magazine's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time list in 2003, and was listed by the National Association of Recording Merchandisers at number three in their Definitive 200 Albums of All Time. Thriller was preserved by the Library of Congress to the National Recording Registry, as it was deemed "culturally significant".

As far as crossing generations, the winner of American Idol two seasons ago won partly due to his use of an MJ cover. (granted he used Chris Cornells cover..but)

Interesting
I had to google Thriller to see what the fuss is about.

But I will say I liked Billy Jean very much. Great song and Michael's performance of it was really great.

I have several Alan Jackson CD's and several Beatles CD's. Michael Jackson? Never have had one.

The only thing I remember about Beat it was weird Al's Eat It.

but I'm an old guy.

Again, statistics aside, where is his "Hey Jude"? Where is his "Layla"? There isn't one. Just mediocre songs.

Ben,
You have your taste just as my daughter loved "New Kids on the Block." But, millions of people disagree with you and that is okay too.

Funny how discussions like this always end up being, ''my taste is better then anyone else'' lol...

Yes taste does enter into the equation, but where is MJ's "Hey Jude" or "Layla"?
No one has answered the question.

Ben, your question IS a matter of PERSONAL taste, so how can it be answered without more personal opinion? I think that the popularity of any artist has something to do with how well their newer songs are then accepted. Also, life experiences which took place while we heard those songs have bearing on our sensory perception in our memories. Do we associate a favorite song with fond memories such a school prom or first date? Or were we going through a wicked divorce during the release of a song? These things play a large role in our like or dislike of something.

I know Clapton is amazing, but "Layla" is not one of my favorite Clapton songs. Of course, I am a huge Beatles freak, but again, "Hey Jude" is not on the top of my favorite Beatles songs. Yet, both are certainly classics. Why? Their impact.

There is no answer to your question, Ben. It would be like my daughter saying to me, "Where is the Beatles' equivalent to 'I'll be Loving You' by New Kids On The Block." To her, the Beatles were not part of her life experience. So, they are not as real to her as those bands who came out while she was growing up.

You have your taste and there is no arguing that at all. People are entitled to their taste. It's a God-given right. But, an answer back to your question is just someone else's taste.

Personally, I feel the collaboration of songs with Quincy Jones and MJ to be my favorites of MJ and major classics in their genre.

Just as I may prefer the paintings of Rembrandt to those of Picasso, it does not make Picasso's work any less important.

Blessings,
Heidi

I did answer it. You just didn't like the answer.

Because it's a stupid question! Where's The Beatles' "Billie Jean"?
(not to mention their "Thriller", "Black Or White" or "They Don't Care About Us")

Calling MJ's songwriting mediocre is just plain arrogant, IMHO. You may like the Beatles better 'cause they are your childhood heroes, but that doesn't change the fact that Thriller outsold every other record ever made.

That's no easy feat! You don't get to do that with mediocre songwriting!

OK, Brother Ben:

Beatles "Hey Jude" sold 10 mil Singles.
"We Are The World", by MJ & Lionel Ritchie, sold 20 mil..for charity, no less.
"Black or White"..10 Mil
"Billie Jean"..10 mil

Beatles top-seller: "I Want to Hold Your Hand"..12 Mil

All according to Wikipedia.
"Hey Jude" broke with the tradition of 3-minute singles. "Thriller" broke with the tradition of cheapie Videos & all-white MTV Bands.

Best Wishes,
Stan

I do not think anyone can question MJ's talent or popularity. We can however question his sanity and behaviour. Yes the press can hound people and print rubbish stories and lies. I know people who have been victims of the press and have had their lives turned into misery and careers ruined. That is another story and debate for another time. MJ was on a self destruct mission from an early age and the press picked up on it camping outside his home for the next big story. That said Wacko certainly gave them plenty of fuel for great headlines. Much if not all of the damage done to him by bad press was self inflicted. If you do weird and wacko things ALL the time and are very famous you can expect the nasty headlines and bad publicity.

You guys are arguing over which is better Cherry ice cream or strawberry ice cream.
Or better yet Cherry Ice cream made in a home Ice cream maker in the 1800's to Ben and Jerry's Strawberry with Pralines Ice cream made in 1990.

The Beatles where great but they had a smaller audience than Michael Jackson and a lot less time and Technology.
The Beatles were alive and performing as the Beatles for 10 years. Michael Jackson was not even 20 years old and already had 10 years performing behind him. By the time Thriller came out he had been building his fan base all around the world for 15 years and Thriller was more than just a song. It was a minnie Movie. A Major production. 14 minutes long.
Had there been MTV, and International coverage like there was in the 80's I'd bet the Beatles would have sold a lot more records. If they sold 10 million in the 60's I'd bet they could easily have sold 15 million in 1985.
It was a whole different time.
It's apples and oranges.
WE didn't have cassettes and portable media in the 60's. You had to buy Vinyl or Reel to Reel. Big difference.
You couldn't stick a Vinyl LP into the radio in your car or a boom box at the beach. In the 60's we either listened to it at home on a turntable or on the radio in the car.

How about comparing The Beatles and McCartney, Lennon, Harrison, and Starr collectively. They were basically the same group. I think the numbers would change a bit. Look at the volumes of work by the Beatles members for the last 45 years compared to Michael Jackson's.

Thriller sold an amazing number of copies but things were a whole lot different in 1985 than 1965.

Like I said earlier I had to Google Thriller to see what all the fuss was about. I had never seen it.
I didn't have to Google anything to know what the Beatles were about, or Elvis.

Just curious, I wonder how many copies Beethoven sold.

He was hard to figure out. From one perspective - the market has decided that he was very good. He sold a lot of albums.


Tom

I dont think anyone (besides ben)is arguing who is better. It's not a winnable argument. The 'best' is up to individual choice. You didnt have to google ur era where this generation would.

OK folks, I concede that it's a matter of taste. And I never was a fan of MJ. Why was that? Because as we say in the JPF awards, his music didn't "move" me. That's a personal opinion. I admit that I like the early Jackson Five but from the late 70's on MJ has been on a long strange trip.

Tampa dude, I bet that you know every word of Hey Jude. Do you know every word of an MJ song? Save a fan for me Stan. We only live 100 miles apart, I'll drop in and buy one some day.

HiDee again, Neighbor Ben!

Hmm..."Na..Na..Na..Na-Na-Na-Naaaa...Na-Na-Na-Naaaa...Hey Jude!"

Vs....(Hamming it up a scosh) "Billy Jean is not my lover (WHOOO)..She's just a girl who says that I am the One (Huuhhh!)..But the Kid is not my son..(Heee-Heee..Uh.Huhhh!)"

Both Acts were kinda fond of Nonce Words & Filler..JMO..to keep the beat moving-along. I LOVED the Cheekiness of The Beatles, their Anti-Establishment Hairdos..their HUMOR on unexpected occasions..& the Brilliant INTELLIGENCE of John Lennon. I identified lots more with His Quirkiness than McCartney's Prettyboy Persona...(But truth-be-told, I early-on became a STONES Fan..they were lots less-subversive/more in-your-face..JUST as Non-Apologetic to The Older-Generation as The Beatles..& didn't depend on the Cuteness & Cuddliness Factors to sell records.)

I don't know every word to ANY song..even My Own. I've not been blessed with a great memory, from Day One.

I DO remember a LOT of MJ's Dance Moves, tho..& remember None from The Beatles. MJ DID give us some Great VISUAL Moments along with his Music. The Beatles gave us "A Hard Days Night" & "Yellow Submarine"..(For Comparison Purposes).

I've never seen either act's Live Performances...Wish I Had!
WOULD for-sure catch a Sir Paul or Ringo Concert NOW...that I'm aware alla these guys ARE getting up in the years. "8 Days a Week" will always bring back some great Backseat Memories for this guy...I got none from MJ, having long-been-married by-then.

I agree about the Apples-vs-Oranges here...there's both a Generation Gap & a Media-Shift to account-for. IMHO, both MJ & The Beatles remain "All-Time Greats", quite-worthy of appreciation & adolation. With all that Greatness, there's also that Shadow of Tragedy that followed-along. I won't get into whether John's death was More-Tragic than Michael's...but I'll just close by saying ALL their lives were that Special Kinda Magic we mere mortals can only TRY to analyze..& come to our own conclusions.

Best Wishes, & Lookin' Forwards to That Visit someday, Amigo,
Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

There's no doubt that MJ was a very talented entertainer/singer/dancer. He ranks up there with the best. I don't know much about his songwriting, though I know he used many, many talented people (composers,arrangers,synthesists,etc) in his productions.

I read in recording mag once that he was drawing ideas from a thousand musicians/synthesists for one of his albums. Still, you put a bad performer in the best of the best environment; they're still gonna sound like a bad performer. So MJ worked with the cream-of-the-top because he was the cream-of-the-crop in what he did.

As far as using the "popularity" method in determining the "good, better, best" songs; I wouldn't put much stock in that approach. I'm sure we all can think of crappy songs that were popular. I know this is the favored indicator of a great song by execs in the Music Industry. But then this is more a profit indicator, not an artistic evaluation.

The test of time method has some rationale. However, again, it's only one facet of what a great song is. The Star Spangled Banner has stood the test of time. IMO, one of the worst songs of all time.

I imagine a piece of music could be judged on its technical attributes. But what would the criterion be? And that would require very knowledgeable experts that agree on the criterion. And who would select these experts? Experts in every field disagree all the time.

I think it all boils down to personal opinion and how a piece of music affects each of us individually.

MJ earned his place in popular music history. Yes, extremely talented.

Best, John

I am solidly with Heidi and Mark on this...MJ changed the entire culture and was brilliantly talented...was he a little weird? yes...How do you define NORMAL in the crazy world? Ben, MJs song "Man in the Mirror" is his Hey Jude...give it a listen with the words.

Herbie, "Man In The Mirror" was no "Hey Jude". Are you kidding?

you gotta love personal opinions...
to some it may be...
the reality is they are each their own song... some people prefer one over the other..some don't like either... I think I know Ben's vote

If everyone took the advice of the message in the "Man in the Mirror" lyric, the world would change for the better...


I'm Gonna Make A Change
For Once In My Life
It's Gonna Feel Real Good
Gonna Make A Difference
Gonna Make It Right...

As I, Turn Up The Collar On
My Favorite Winter Coat
This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind
I See The Kids In The Street
With Not Enough To Eat
Who Am I, To Be Blind?
Pretending Not To See Their Needs
A Summer's Disregard
A Broken Bottle Top
And A One Man's Soul
They Follow Each Other On
The Wind Ya' Know
'Cause They Got Nowhere To Go
That's Why I Want You To Know

I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways
And No Message Could Have Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself, And Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself, And Then Make A Change)
(Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na, Na Nah)

I've Been A Victim Of
A Selfish Kind Of Love
It's Time That I Realize
That There Are Some With No Home
Not A Nickel To Loan
Could It Be Really Me
Pretending That They're Not Alone?

A Willow Deeply Scarred
Somebody's Broken Heart
And A Washed-Out Dream
(Washed-Out Dream)
They Follow The Pattern Of
The Wind, Ya' See
Cause They Got No Place To Be
That's Why I'm Starting With Me
(Starting With Me!)

I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror
(Ooh!)
I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways
(Ooh!)
And No Message Could Have Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself And Then Make A Change)

Hi eb:

Thanks for the comparative summary you provided. It was a little surprising to me. I was never a fan of MJ... but he certainly had talent. Unfortunately, he could have been a real "role model" but chose to take the "slippery slope" instead.

I guess beyond his obsession with changing his appearance to an extreme... the episode of holding the baby out the window "tore it" with me. Still, he had millions of adoring fans as evidence of his musical uniqueness. May he rest in the peace he never found in life.

Upon watching the televised memorial, I think Barry Gordy summed up the creative impact of Michael Jackson by stating, "He studied the greats and then became greater. He raised the bar and then broke the bar."

It is heartbreaking to see all the people all over the world who were touched by MJ. They had the beauty of this artist in their lives for nearly half a century and now this beauty is gone.

The memorial is one of the most astounding I've ever seen. I hope some of you got to see it. It was interesting to see that the Jackson Five had their first four songs go gold.

Then MJ broke out solo with Billie Jean and his moonwalk. It made pop history.

Ben, the universe and all it's wisdom of the right answers don't just center around you. They center around everyone. It's called viewpoint.

To some, the hoola-hoop will be THE toy to say, "Where's your hoola hoop from your Tonka colection"? To which Tonka toy owners will come up with their named toy as the one above all, and may not have experienced the hoola hoop, thus declaring it just another simple toy, for they have THE defining toy moment in "their" life.

For jazz listeners, it could be something by Art Tatum or Louis Armstrong, that they will ask where's yours in your style. When you respond with Hey Jude, they might laugh, and point out the extremely basic chords and simple words, with a very long repeating of Na na na's,,,saying "Did Paul ran out of things to say for those ending three chords"? They might point out Elenore Rigby as the song you should be saying. . Or A Day in a Life.

Viewpoint comes in many and adjustable colors.


For The Beatles, for me, the moment was Ed Sullivan! Feb, 9th, 1964. Nothing topped that since. Not even their songs through the next 6 years in total, as much as I loved most and still do.

So, for me, my Ed Sullivan moment blows away your Hey Jude moment by a long ending! But it can't, in fairness to you, if you have YOURS. Let others have theirs, for any artist, for any song, for any moment that has meaning to them. Scorecards are for stats. The other are feelings that "seem" to trump all else.

Peace!

John

He changed music in many ways, and dance..and I have several of his albums, loved him as a child, and still love to dance to him.... BUT I am not "THRILLED" with the coverage on every single channel over his death. It is getting old. Until new news comes out, it should die down after this funeral and tribute.. for a while. (I hope)
Kim

John: Excellent points, through and through.

Kevin

For The Beatles, for me, the moment was Ed Sullivan! Feb, 9th, 1964. Nothing topped that since- John Daubert


The moment of the Century in popular music for me as well John. But, thank God there's room for all the other artists. I'm sure a steady diet of filet mignon would become a drag to meat lovers as well.

Best, John

I haven't read every single post in this thread, just most of the first page, so if any of this is repeated, please forgive...

I would personally count "We Are The World" as at least on par with "Hey Jude". Most of the people (with radios) on this planet have heard that one. It was written by MJ and Lionel Ritchie.

"Man in the Mirror" is another one right up there with anything by the Beatles.

I didn't like some of his stuff, and some of the Beatles stuff was simply fluff, too - "She Loves You, yeah, yeah, yeah" for example, but MJ did have some brilliant songs and brilliant innovations such as using heavy metal guitarists in R&B tunes: Eddie Van Halen in Billie Jean, and Slash in Black or White.

You're comparing his writing to Elvis? Not to dis Elvis' influence as an entertainer, but he was NOT a songwriter. Elvis sang songs written by others, so it's apples and oranges for songwriting skills.

BTW, RIAA statistics only cover U.S. sales, not worldwide sales. A couple of different "unofficial" sources ('cause there isn't an "official" one) estimate his worldwide sales between 750 million and 1 billion - right up there with the Beatles and Elvis. The post-humous sales may put him well over a billion. He will no doubt be one of the top 3 or 4 artists in worldwide record sales for a long time.

Back on topic regarding the media, yeah, the media will sensationalize anything to make a buck. They lie repeatedly by using "undisclosed sources" as their scapegoat. Oh, you BELIEVE everything you read in the paper, right?

Other media: As far as the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, they are planning a candlelight vigil for him tonight outside the Hall of Fame building in Ohio. He was inducted in 2001 at the same time as Steely Dan, Aerosmith, Paul Simon and a few others.

Saw one of the lurkers was reading this age old thread. maybe cause of the biopic that is out now.

Yeah seems Ben Willis wiffed on this one.

MJ was an extradorinary talent, not just as an entertainer but as a singer and songwriter.

He may not be the most deep of lyric writers, but his songs were so powerful for his genre. Not sure he wrote some of those great grooves and licks. I know he didnt write the riff to beat it, Steve Lukather did that.

Eddie Vane Halen did the solo, and rearranged the song btw. nobody was supposed to know he played on that record either...didnt stay a secret long.

May be hard for some to seperate the man and the music. In his case, i dont think its hard at all. Because he wasnt writing deep soul searching songs, he was writing great pop tunes. entertainment value is what it is.

As a live performer he was able to make hardened criminals cry..

It can be hard to give credit as something being great when you dont like that kind of music, after all we go by what we like.

But id say his melodies were phenominal, i have no doubt he wrote those.

but people find a way to hate most successful artists anyway, its just the nature of it.

Weird, sick guy, but a great talent, and thats what he was paid for

,

He was a child molestor , not interested. plus he's dead. But I am jealous of 100 operations to look 22 again, Face lift people look like old asian people, or a aging gold fish, They stuffed him full of chemicals to last 4000 years in that coffin. He's basically piped in Safeway music now , Pears on sale on isle 8. Beat it , is a masturbation song

You haven't had any plastic surgery?

only a dick exstention , now its 4 inches long

Everbody dead is the the king of rock and roll. Like Amy Winehouse

No wonder your such a dick

ha ha ha yeah 4 inches now baby. Life time prescription to viagra and penthouse magazines. Next wife will be a robot built in China. You push a button for lubrication, Name her Faith Hill

Im mulling a reduction, my back been killing me

I need Vallium to counter the comedy central of life and a small dick, and smart ass wife young enough to be my grand daughter. The only reason I write country , I'm to stupid for a pop song

But dont call anybody fat, then yiur a horrible person

ha ha ha right , the shame. size 4000. put her in a beach song. with aging Chesney. Shite my back aches . I wonder if the hair for men works ? Why do they always say I'm gay ? Who the hell is this Elvis Nash , he sounds like drunk Dylan. give it up man , your old. Who's your sponsor , Geritol ? You sound like Mister Ed. My ears are bleeding. Does this guy have a stuttering problem like Mel Tillis

Lol

ha ha ha what a smart ass. I'm part of the dead poet society , it's the hillbilly section. it has a dental plan for members with no teeth, Were kinda stupid , we can't spell retneck. Im marrying my sister next week. Mamma won't be there , she got hit by a train going to Walmart to buy vodka. is she a virgin ? I don't know , I'll ask dad. He dosent know , he does not recognize her at all. Honey moons at Uncle Bobs trailer park. Were blowing up a propane tank at midnight

Did you listen to all your country songs backwards? You might get everything back