JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Country music is anti-rap/hiphop music

Pop music these days, I just cannot relate. Rap and hiphop, I just don't identify with that.

I recently saw a Billboard chart where either ALL of the top 10 or 9 out of the top 10 songs were black artists. And the music style they played was not to my liking. I like r&b stuff, which is predominately black artists but this new stuff... uh uh.

So, will folks who can't relate to today's pop music give a boost to country music? Which is almost totally created by white artists?

I don't mean for my questions to promote racial intolerance. Just different styles of music and who controls the genre for whatever reason. For instance, Charley Pride, I thought was awesome.

And you don't see all those great talking blues songs of the 40-=50s as forerunners to rap crap?
Black white or brindle,
I don't care.
My ears are colour blind.
And it's my mind.
That tells me who is singing where.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Seems this post started with concerns of race, which really doesn't matter to me, except for the fact I'm a yankee cracker who thinks black musical artists RULE!
At every turn in Amercian musical history, black artists have paved the way to new sounds and new horizons...(Janet Jackson not included.)
With that out of the way, do I think a disliking to rap/hip-hop would steer me in the direction of country? Nope.
Only good country music would lead me to appreciate country music. Currently, country music suffers from the same ills as all popular forms of music presented by the mainstream media empires... it's out of touch with itself, desparate, and hanging upon shock value and/or commercialism as the key to its success.

Music should indeed be a blind concern.
When the homely and down-trodden begin receiving trophies at the Grammy Awards, it should be a sign that things are improving. When every fan wearing a cowboy hat and pointed boots can tell you the reasons for the original design of said garments, the hype will have ended, and the music begun.

-gary

the average nashville pop/country song is produced within an inch of its life in much the same way the average top 20 hip hop song is produced.

all of this stuff should be pushing us not from one artificially created genre to the next... but to independant musicians on small to mid-sized labels who get the freedom to do things that are new and interesting regardless of what "genre" the get filed under in the record store.

modern top 20 country IS pop music nowadays. and suffers from the exact same ills. gary hit it right on the money with his last post.

people need to stop getting their music from Billboard.



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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

It's all in how you approach it...

http://getlostinamerica.com/mp3s/bigbuttedicebaby.mp3

Black, white or whatever, I'm eagerly awaiting the next "Eagles," not more eagle dung...

P. E. Knudsen

I honestly try to live my life as free of bigotry as I can. And that is no small step in these woods. My post was not meant to incite racial prejudice. It was about something that you can't talk about because it's not politically correct. And that is that people are different. Races are different. To push that under the carpet is silly.

And I wondered, that since 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 billboard hits were by black artists, if whites would more likely gravitate to country. Which is almost all white. I like many kinds of music except I don't like rap and I don't like hiphop. I never said it was bad. I said I didn't like it. Damn near every black person in America would not like my honky tonk country music, I guarantee you. We're just different.

OTOH, I just composed a blues song after listening to my B B King records. I love black music. Well, certain black music. Like I like certain white artists, not all, for sure.

uh - most of the people buying hip hop nowadays are white kids.

i don't think race really has anything to do with it.

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

I don't really pay attention to Billboard anymore, but the previous posters are correct, it has nothing to do with race.

All those artists at the top of the charts are only making the music that people 'want' to hear. So it's no wonder many acts have been doing a 360 degrees turn in their music style just to stay current (Pink, Christina, Justin, LeAnn Rimes etc). They're all pretty much interchangeable in my eyes and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Dixie Chicks decided to an R&B album next.

And I wondered, that since 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 billboard hits were by black artists, if whites would more likely gravitate to country. Which is almost all white.


If that's not a racist remark.....

I just don't know what else to call it...

Why would the fact that most of the top hits are by black artists make white people gravitate to country ?


Jeeez Duke........!

I think you might have some issues to deal with, young man.

Bob Young

Oh yeah, I have issues I deal with all the time but it's in a positive way. WHAT is racist? Recognizing that we're different? Puhleeze. It's almost impossible to discuss online because so many won't recognize it.

I've written songs about bigotry so no need to be judging me. And I'm not young, Young man.

It's like the Runner's World article ten years ago that said blacks are superior to whites in some ways athletically because of genetic superiority. They got hammered. But you and I both know it's true. They are flat out better in many ways.

White kids don't have any ingenuity. Blacks are the originators of everything in music. White kids copy it. Except country. And you could say that came from black music.

As far as what I intended originally, the rap music and hiphop music that were invented by blacks and it was all black until the white kids copied it... that is the music I am talking about. That is so revolting to me and millions more. Millions love it. Millions hate it.

The point was pertaining to POP music. The billboard charts for pop music. For a very long time, there were many white influences. Not so much anymore, apparently.

Your first statement may have some merit. Country music is predominantly performed by and listened to by white folks. Still, more white musicians write and play in the many other genres than they do country by a wide margin. "Country" is what the industry chooses to make it as tastes and audiences change. At this point in time, if you are preferably male, have a southern drawl, are ideally in your twenties and look great in a cowboy suit, it's probably the genre you might want to pursue. That look and sound, however, is a bit dated though.

Hip-hop and rap are both very popular now among both black and white audiences that actually go out and BUY CD's. Black artists change with the times like everyone else, so there are only aging doo-wap black groups still doing their thing while the younger artists are giving the audience what it wants now. It's good business sense, not some genetic trait that keeps black artists on top.

Regarding your second comment, most whites in America probably won't like your honky tonk music either. And I know for a fact that Karl Malone, formerly with the Jazz and now with the Lakers, loves good old country music even though he looks outrageous in a cowboy outfit.

No racial group can take credit for creating musical trends, but blacks do have a great track record when it comes to knowing what the audience wants and delivering time and time again. That will get 9 out of 10 of the top spots on the Billboard charts in no time.

P.E. Knudsen

I've just gotta get into this. It's amazing to me how an OBSERVATION by someone turns into a "racist" remark. Racisim has nothing to do with making an observation about something based on skin color. In order for it to have been a racist comment it would have had to be something negative about that race. Had Duke said, "all those black artists are stupid because they are black"(which I would never say...It is being used purely as an example)
That would have been a racist statement. Enough about the statement itself.

However with the observation, it does bring a question to mind. Do black artists have more opportunities in the music business? I don't mean for that to be a negative question. Maybe its a cultural thing.
I grew up in a 75% black community. I did notice that the black people stuck together more than the whites. Maybe the black artists have more opportunities because the black labels like to see young black artists succeed. Hip Hop has become so successful, its artists, producers, and labels have more disposable resources to "give an artist a shot". The more shots that are taken the more hits.

actually - this is exactly what racism is all about.

making unfounded generalizations about whole classes of people based solely on their skin color is the definition of racism.

racism isn't just about hatred. i know lots of people who think that all asians are great at math. is that racist? yes - because it reduces a collection of individuals to a stereotype.

oddly - the most racist thing about the post isn't that it's full of hatred - it isn't.

it's that it quietly presumes a world in which there is "black music" and "white music" and in which black and white people necessarily gravitate towards one or the other.

it presumes that white people will stop listening to certain kinds of music when black people become over-represented in them and that they will move to some other genre simply because they want to be listening to "white music" -- whatever that is.

this sentiment is demonstrably false -- white folk have always been the largest consumers of "black music." and numerous examples of black folk who like "white music" have been offered as well.

fact is - you just can't draw those lines nowadays. not because it isn't "PC" - but because it just isn't true anymore.

in the modern US - especially in the entertainment industry - those hard and fast culture/race lines just don't exist anymore. those that remain are on their way out.

good riddance!

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

Actually thats just not true. Merriam Webters dictionary defines racism as:" a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Dukes post only made an observation. He never said one race was better than the other or that one style of music was better than the other.
Is the statement that Race (Blacks and Mexican Americans are more likely to have heart disease than whites) a racist statement? If so then lets go get the AMA, WEB MD and the American Journal of Medicine and call them all bigots and racists. That would be absurd.
It's the "PC" movement in this country that has brought us to the point we are at. Where there is no individualism either in us as people or in our mainstream music, or in our thinking. Heaven forbid in this day and age that someone have a unique thought.

hey check it out - your definition with different emphasis:

"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacitiesand that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race."



it's a pretty far cry to go from saying that blacks and whites have different physical characteristics to implying that they also have naturally different tastes in music.

the idea that black people are generally only interested in black music and that white people are generally only interested in white music assumes that human tastes are dictated by race.

record sales show this to be demonstrably false. you aren't a bad person for thinking it - just wrong and apparently prone to racial stereotyping.

NEXT QUESTION

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com


[This message has been edited by kit (edited 02-06-2004).]

Kit:

I, personally, think you are going a bit over the top on this racial stereotyping issue. Though no ethnic group or race should ever be stereotyped - see below - it is only human nature that "birds" of a feather often do flock together.
The real distinctions - assuming there ever were any - between black and white music faded into gray years ago. Still, the audience at the Appolo in Harlem is still predominantly black and the audience at the Grand Ole Opry is predominantly white.

Is that racism? Not really, by any standard.

I'm white, and I preferred listening to Nat King Cole over Ole Blue Eyes everytime. And I was buying Johnny Mathis records when most of my friends were in love with Elvis. I didn't go to the Apollo, though, to hear either perform live.

Blame the Census Bureau for "updating" generalizations and stereotyping every ten years.

P.E. Knudsen

[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-06-2004).]

certainly - but that's a little different than saying that white people might flock to country music simply because black people dominate other forms, isn't it? it presumes that white people don't want to listen to music made by blacks. that's what i think is racist.

and maybe "racist" is too loaded - but its certainly bespeaks a tendency in the original poster to try to sort issues out along an artificial color line.


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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

Oh for Crissakes....

If you say "all white people are this"..or "all black people are that"...
that's racism...period !

Duke said "White kids don't have any ingenuity"..
That's racist...

If a black guy said those same words, white folks would be up in arms !

I've been a bandleader for a long, long time.
I've had people of every imaginable color on my stage.
Black musicians are NOT more rhytmically gifted than white players..
White players are NOT more inclined to play ahead of the beat than benind it..

If I get a black kid who grew up going to a "singing" church where maybe he was part of the band..Yes..that kid is gonna be more tuned in to rhythms....
By the same token if I get a black kid who comes from a background that does not include exposure to music he is gonna speed up and slow down and drop a measure here and there just like any white kid I might hire.

Black people are a distinct numerical minority in this country..
Something like 18 or 20 percent of the population.
If all that best selling music is by Black artists, it's because a whole lot of white people are buying those CDs.

My wife is Irish Catholic, South side of Chicago whitebread !
She much prefers Motown (the music of her youth) to any other music style.

To imply that Hillbilly music is an "escape" for folks who don't like Black music is just stupid headed.

Anybody that listens to country music because they don't like pop music is exercising their right of choice, and that's fine.
BUT...if they're going there because there are too many Black people in popular music..well...then they're just sad little
bigots.

And, if I hear one more person say..."Hey...don't call me a racist...I just LOVE Charley Pride !"
I will ask them to name a few more Black country artists that they "love".

Charley hasn't had a hit in 20 years..and the only reason alot of "country" folk loved Charlie was because he sounded just like a white guy and never started none of that"race" trouble that alot of them other pesky Black folks got involved in.
And, THAT'S the truth.

We all grow up playing and loving the music of our youth..Black or White or Chinese !

The time for defining music by color is past...
Wake up to yourselves !

Bob Young

[PARTIAL QUOTE]Originally posted by Knute:
No racial group can take credit for creating musical trends, but blacks do have a great track record when it comes to knowing what the audience wants and delivering time and time again. That will get 9 out of 10 of the top spots on the Billboard charts in no time.

P.E. Knudsen >>>

I dunno PE, the first thing that comes to my mind on this topic is the origin of the banjo itself.
Then the next thing is slave gospel
Then the next thing is blues- ragtime- jazz
Then the next thing is rock & roll- r&b- soul-funk...
And then...the wind cried Hendrix

Perhaps your keyword is "trends"... but I've always thought the origin of many musical styles could easily be traced blacks. Yet in many cases, the result of a racist society would have the white folks setting the trends, a mere issue of popularity, numbers, and acceptablilty at the time.

-gary

Kit,

QUOTE]hey check it out - your definition with different emphasis:
"[b]a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacitiesand that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race."
[/B][/QUOTE]

I see your different emphasis but my point with the emphasis was to show it is the combination of BOTH things that makes racism. Not one or the other.



Excuse me... what makes your opinion the "right" one? As for being prone to racial stereotyping...EVERYONE is. If you say you're not your kiddig yourself.

my opinion about white kids buying black music is correct because record sales back it up. ie - it isn't an opinion.

i never said i wasn't prone to racial stereotyping. those are your words, not mine.

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

[This message has been edited by kit (edited 02-06-2004).]

Gary:

The lute came along before the banjo and I don't think many European court musicians were black. The longest running trend is "classical" music and not much, if any, of that genre was written by blacks.

Musical expression, however, is not a function of race and never has been. Culture, maybe, but not race.

Still, there are a differences between black and white music even if those differences are very subtle and often can only be measured in the timbre of the singer's voice. Some songs sound better to me with a black vocalist and others sound better with a white vocalist. Imagine Elton John singing "Old Man River?" YUK! Or Johnny Mathis singing "Folsom Prison Blues." another YUK!

If 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 billboard hits were by black artists, as DukeWill stated, it may make perfect business sense for a white artist to gravitate to country. That's not racism, just good business.

In terms of playing, I've never noticed that musicians of any given race have an edge on any other race. However, I can tell you this, when I was a dancer in my youth, there was no way in hell I was going to compete with the black dudes in boogie dance contests. I could buy the same oversized raincoat, and match them move for move, but they looked "cool" and I looked rediculous by comparison. They definately had the edge. That applied to tap dance contests as well. So I focused on ballroom dance contests where the cool black dudes didn't have the advantage, if and when they even entered those contests.

Sometimes what some would label as racial stereotyping is a reality that should be acknowledged and accepted, not condemned.

I know if I were raising a young white boy in America today, I would encourage him to become an olympic swimmer, not a 100 meter sprinter. That would not be based on racial stereotyping either, but rather based who's been getting the medals and who hasn't.

P.E. Knudsen





[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-06-2004).]

Darnit Knute..
It's always risky challenging an attorney, but I'll see your lute and harpsichord and raise you two conche shells and one mastodon rib.

-gary

Gary:

I could use that mastodon rib to compare it with the mammoth ribs we have here in Utah to see which of the two is superior in strength and appearance. I would not, however, draw any conclusions or form any stereotypes regarding which beast I would have preferred chasing over a cliff for Sunday dinner based on such a limited research study, and I really wouldn't want to offend either the mastodons or the mammoths by inferring that all of each of the species ribs are the same.

P.E. Knudsen

[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-06-2004).]

And I will see ya with a bowstring going eight to the bar.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

in a remarkable example of thread drift i feel that it must be pointed out that the banjo in fact bears no relation to the lute or the guitar (both of which are related). The first banjos where made with gourds and sticks - and were likely imported to the Americas via the West Indies -- originally from Africa.

http://www.standingstones.com/banjo.html

(-:

the dead white guys don't get that one!

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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

[This message has been edited by kit (edited 02-06-2004).]

Again, I have come light years from the hateful, prejudiced, bigoted world I grew up and in many ways, still reside in. And my songs reflect how far I've come. I love and admire black people. Probably much more than many of the do-gooders on here.

Of course, just about any time I post anything to generate an interesting discussion on this board, Bob Young will hit me with condescending crap.

And I am a copyrighter and I use headlines to draw people in but so often, they don't actually ponder the post as much as they do the headline. Headlines are interesting.

Let me spell this out. If in fact, 9 out of 10 artists on the billboard chart were from black artists, it was asked if a domination by black artists in the pop world might move some whites to country music. Seems like a pretty interesting possibility to me.

Coming from someone who absolutely cannot stand rap and hiphop. AND... observes similar reaction from other whites. Thus, would some pop fans move toward country. Country is becoming more pop. But I don't see it ever having a strong influence by blacks.

To say that race has nothing to do with music, that is laughable to me. You guys can toot that horn all you want but I don't think I buy that. And that is not saying one word against any style of music.

I love many kinds of black music, so all the name calling seems unwarranted, IMHO. Oh, wait, there IS no "black music." Sorry, my bad.

You're a "copyrighter?" Hmm...At the Salt Lake Tribune all we have are copywriters.

Some Black artists sure as hell influenced Elvis and he was about as pop country as you can get.

Finally... For the last time, hopefully, race has nothing to do with music. Culture, yes... Race, absolutely no... I'm sure a Swahili teen would find very little entertainment value in the 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 Billboard songs attributed to their Black brothers. They probably would dislike Rap even more than I do - even if written in Swahili.

P.E. Knudsen



[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-06-2004).]

I'm not exactly sure what people mean when they say race has nothing to do with music.

Certainly, historically speaking, different races developed different styles of music. As travel and communication developed, these styles have mixed and synthesized into other styles. Jazz, for example has elements of both Caucasian European and Negro African music.

The Blues was developed almost exclusively by the Negro race. Appalachian folk music was developed almost exclusively by the Caucasian race. Country music mixed the two styles...Maybelle Carter learned guitar styles from a black man, Jimmy Rogers borrowed a lot from Ragtime. All current forms of American Pop music, from Hip-hop to Metal to Country have their roots in music from both Negro and Caucasian cultures.

Many cultures have lent their unique musics to our popular forms: Spanish, Arabic, Oriental, Indian, African, Irish, Brazilian, the list goes on and on. The roots grow finer than simply racial beginnings.

Yes, music, just as any art, has racial, cultural, national, and historic beginnings. This is something to be studied, celebrated, and cherished.

Mike


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Mike Dunbar Music

Duke...

If your question is "If 9 out of 10 pop songs are by BLACK artists, will that move some people to country"...

My answer is "Only if the presence of BLACK artists being so prevalent is troubling to them."

That would, in my opinion, be a decision based on racial intolerance, rather than musical taste.

There is plenty of good old fashioned "white" music being made today for those who feel the need to hear it.

You make the subtle assumption that ALL Black people like hip hop and rap.

The three women that work for me are not fans of the genre.

They, like me, are happy to see the influx of more melodic songs lately, as opposed to the more pure rhythm oriented hard core rap and hip hop.

There, Duke...

Was that non-condescending enough for your butt ?

Bob Young

Mike:

I really do think you are confusing race with culture. Anthropology 101 might help you sort out the differences of which there are many.

For example, slaves weren't singing gospel blues on the boat coming here from Africa. Once here, however, since they weren't deaf, they heard the music of the culture - NOT RACE - they were then forced to participate in. Over time this NEW Black culture that existed nowhere else on earth developed. It wasn't that the music this new culture developed was so different from the religious music of the time, but rather how the timbre in the Black voices made the music sound. Over time the slaves wrote their own songs, based on life in America and what they heard and saw and felt here, not based on African tribal war chants they had long forgotten.

And imagine where BB King et al and their "Black" blues influence would be musically had Les Paul not invented the electric guitar.

Sometimes I have to chuckle at how the descendants of the Anglo Saxon Protestants in Europe assume they ARE the caucasian "race." So the music that developed in Europe and then in America was "caucasian" music and nothing else was. God forbid we include the Eastern European caucasians in that racial mix. Their music evolved quite differently from what was happening in the west. If music had any basis in race, not simply culture, all music of any given race would evolve along the same path, which has never been the case.

P.E. Knudsen

[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-07-2004).]

Bob:

Even though I'm not sure whether Dukewill is truly liberated from the mindset of the old south, steering away from a genre that is dominated by a group he's not a part of might make more good business sense than simply be a display of any racial prejudice as you keep suggesting.

P.E. Knudsen


[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-07-2004).]

P.E.,

On considering your argument, you are correct, I was making cultural, not racial distinctions.

I'll assume your suggestion that I take Anthropology 101 was not as condescending as it seemed to me. I know I often unintentionally end up sounding like a "smart-ass," and I'm sure that happens to others.


All the Best,
Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Knute..

You're a real bright guy...but...

"Business sense"????

When has musical taste been defined by business sense ?

I think you might be over intellectualizing the issue here.....

And just as an aside...BB King and many more Black artists (Blues and otherwise) were strongly influenced in their formative years by white artists.

BB lists Roy Acuff and Ernest Tubb as two of his mentors....
BBs guitar playing was born to the sounds of acoustic players like Eddie Lang (extremely white) as well as alot of the "Piedmont" style players like Rev Gary Davis and Blind Lemon Jefferson. He credits T Bone Walker (very black) as the source of his solo style.

Les's invention meant much more to guys like
Charlie Christian than it did to forming BBs style.

Let's not be afraid to call a spade a freakin' shovel here.
Some folks get uncomfortable when they look around and see too many dark faces.
I repeat what I said...If that's the reason for them abandoning the music..that's a problem with racial understanding...not "business sense" or any other such nonsense. I'm not pointing a finger at Duke, either.
I went to his website and his lyrics show him to be a thinker...

His list of favorite artists and writers and influences (hundreds) did allow the presence of two black faces..Leadbelly and someone else...although, their names appeared only after crediting white artists with recording their songs.

(for Duke, apparently Eric Clapton is the king of da' blooz !)

So....whatever it is...it is for each in his own mind

If there hadn't been a Louis Armstrong, we wouldn't be having this discussion anyway.
He was the father of it all.

Bob Young

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 02-07-2004).]

Mike:

No condescension intended. Anthropology 101 was my information source, since my wife is taking the course now, which means I am too. Intellectual Property Law has long been my specialty, not the huge differences that exist between race and culture I learn more about on a daily basis. Fortunately, my wife will be done with Anthropology in May and then I'll have to deal with social psychology, whatever the hell that is.

As always,

P.E. Knudsen

Bob:

Though the argument I was making had nothing to do with musical taste, but rather the musical direction one might choose to increase the chances for success, one cannot disregard the business aspect of music.

No doubt, millions of people write music and lyrics for reasons other than making money, or one would hope so considering how few actually succeed in this BUSINESS. But virtually everybody you can mention who has succeeded developed a style they believed others would like and appreciate. Good business sense. Then they developed an audience. More good business sense. Then they found clever ways to make a profit through records and other merchandise, etc, to sweeten the pot even more. Take the business out of music and you're left with a band of unemployed musicians who will ultimately find something more productive to do.

Music is just like any other business, if the new product doesn't sell, it's like a tree falling in the woods with nobody around. Nobody heard anything.

But since you brought up the subject, if you can put your finger on exactly what determines musical taste, patent it. It's worth millions.

What I do know is that the labels I promoted back in early 60's paid a bundle to WCAO in Baltimore to shape musical taste and many of those payola masterpieces hit the top 10.

I also know that my step-daughter, now 19, and from Mobile, Alabama, was diehard country until she took a serious liking to a guy here in Utah who likes hip-hop. Then she dumped country for hip-hop to score some points or whatever. So much for musical taste, whatever that is....

P.E. Knudsen


[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-07-2004).]

Sorry, Knute...that's just not so...

When an artist develops his own "style" it has little or nothing to do with a conscious decision about if that "style" will be accepted by the masses...

No business sense at all....

I don't think artists like Gaugin and Monet canvassed people to see if their art was "commercial"...I don't think the kind of seminal artists we're talking about did either...

Your "style" is what it is...then...if you're lucky, you find out that alot of people enjoy it.....

I think you'd have to agree that great musical artists are much more often renowned for their lack of "business sense" than their abioity to weave a commercial style based on "business" decisions.

Unless, of course, you're referring to people like Madonna who have crafted careers around clever business and marketing decisions.
We will have no common ground, if that is the case, as I consider the words music, artist and Madonna have no place in the same sentence.

I can't think of anything besides drugs or alcohol that is more responsible for the decay of artistry than "business sense".

Bob Young

Bob:

You are an idealist for certain, and we need more like you, but that does not change reality.

Be assured that "when an artist develops his own 'style' it has little or nothing to do with a conscious decision about if that 'style' will be accepted by the masses" is idealism at its best.

Even the most humble of the great masters wanted to be accepted and respected by their peers and by the marketplace in his own time. Some were and some weren't. They did not emerge from some great vacuum, but rather studied art and saw what people liked and what they didn't like. And every one of them put their works on dispaly hoping they would sell and put bread on the table. Some did and some didn't. The smart ones adapted their style to suit the demands of the marketplace while they were living, while others died pennyless because they either were not as good as the others or their subject matter was not as popular at the time as they thought it would be.

After even the bad artists were dead, however, creative marketers, who had bought those works for next to nothing found clever ways to point out that the artist was the first to do this or the first to do that bull [naughty word removed]. Hey, let the guy rest in peace. He was just trying to turn a buck like everyone else, not rewrite art history.

Creativity for creativity's sake alone may be idealistic, but it is hardly practical in the long run.

P.E. Knudsen





[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-07-2004).]

It would seem that too many years before the bar have taken their toll...

Attorneys deal less with "reality" than perception.

That's what you're doing here...

If an artist is successful, your "reality" is that it is due to sharp business acumen and conscious decisions that lead to a modification of artistic intent.

Bullfeathers !

And, further,....
Idealist my arse !

Maybe we just don't define art the same way....

That must be it...in fact, for your sake, I hope that's it.

In my world, unbridled, uncompromising, and unfettered art not only exists, but flourishes.(and can pay the bills !)

I like my world much more than the one where you seem to live.

Come over some time...the sky is blue..or yellow..or whatever friggin' color I choose to make it.

Bob Young

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 02-07-2004).]

Actually Bob, as one who has spent considerable time in Chicago, I must say that where I live in Utah, the sky needs no artificial coloration whatsoever. It's downright perfect as is.

And that unbridled, uncompromising, and unfettered world you live in where art not only exists, but flourishes, sounds like your private studio. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want. Most in this business, however, view things a bit more pragmatically than you do, even those who decided not to attend law school.

I do respect your devotion to uncompromising art, believe me, and I worked with Fred Richmond, Dem. NY, back in the 70's to get support for the Endowment for the Arts, but the reality is that most people involved with the arts are in it for the money they hope it will someday produce for them, not for the opportunity to engage in unbridled expression. Even ABT has to sell tickets to survive.

P.E. Knudsen





[This message has been edited by Knute (edited 02-07-2004).]

Isn't "RACE" a touchy subject?

I wouldn't say country is anti rap cause country's been around a lot longer. Maybe it's the other way around.

I will say this:
I was recently in the studio behind a group of rappers, or hip-hop, or whatever they want to call it. I arrived a little early and wished I hadn't. From what I heard, I call it garbage. Every fourth line was fu.. you, mother fu..er, the name of the song was "Be My MotherFu..ing ****** Whore Bitch".

If there is one ounce of artistic value in that, please tell me what it is. I could write garbage like that all day. A great message for the youth of the day huh?

I couldn't care less about skin color, it's all about the song and the melody to me.
If it's good I'll like it, and so will a lot of others.

I think most of the differences discussed here as potentially "racial" differences are, indeed, "cultural" differences. Those who think that cultural differences do not play a major factor in people's tastes, etc. have got to be kidding themselves. That's not to say that race does not ever play some factor in culture, but they're not exclusive to each other. I suppose you could say that Scottish culture is "white" culture and not be technically incorrect, since Scottish folks tend to be white. Then, of course, so do Germans....but that's a different culture from the Scots. Neither statement really captures the big picture.

Things are a little different here in the States where our history and racial makeup has been considerably different. As a white southerner, I have certain cultural differences from black southerners. On the other hand, I may well have even greater cultural differences with a white New Englander.

When posed with the question of whether white people would shift from pop to country music based on the number of black artists on the charts, I can't help but wonder which white people we're talking about and what motives we're truly assigning to them. I'd say peoples personal tastes would be the biggest factor in choosing a new genre to tune in to, and those tastes could very well be influenced by culture, but probably not by race to any great degree.

In my opinion, if you're tracing the roots of most American music forms, you'll find the most common denominator is that they usually sprang up in the south....where for all the focus on racial differences, the shared cultural traits of both black and white set them apart from people of other regions...including their music. It's in the ethnic and cultural kitchen of the south, IMO, that most of the enduring "American roots music" was cooked up...and it would be hard to attribute any of it solely to black or white people.

Nowadays, of course, cultural lines are much more blurred as a result of increased communication and travel. I have to assume they will only become more so. As that happens, I'm sure we'll see a much greater meshing of musical styles and even less evidence of any narrow cultural traits in our music (for better or worse). At some point, I'd bet, it's going to be quite difficult to talk about "black" and "white" music, rightly or wrongly, with any amount of credibility.

Randy

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http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=RandyB

I think that if we posted the lyrics to a lot of the rap & hip-hop racket (not music), we would have a first class ticket out of this forum. Where has the moral fiber of this nation gone? If you want to call me a racist, go ahead. I wouldnt listen to it if George Jones was doing it.

[This message has been edited by palidin (edited 02-12-2004).]

would somebody care to point out where anybody said that people who don't like the offensive lyrics in hip hop are racist?

the idea that white people will change their buying habits simply in order to hear music made by other white people is, well, kinda racist.

it is also *factually* *incorrect*, and has been for decades.


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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

Well, let me throw some stuff in here. I don't know what the average age of all the "threaders" here are. I'm guessing older than my 27, but my point is, a whole lot of people my age and younger listen to Rap/Hip-Hop/Alt-Rock and Country. Maybe because it's all merging in sound, who knows. I have, in my CD collection stuff ranging from Jay-Z, 50 cent, George Jones, Jimmy Hendrix, Concrete Blonde, etc... I listen to them all, depending on what mood I'm in. I would also like to point out, from my perspective, the majority of the people I see switching genres are young African American women, who previously listened to Rap, etc...but now are listening to country (Pop Country) having never listened to Country before. Whatever is Whatever. There could be a million reasons why, but I'm guessing it's based on the way women are depicted in Rap/Hip-Hop Culture and over saturation(sic?). And concerning anyone changing their preference from one genre to another, if white people are migrating towards white artist, or black people are migrating towards black artists, based soley on skin color or the need to "flock together" then, sure it's only racially motivated. Not based on listening pleasure. How could it be anything but?

Justin.

Okay
Let's start with my disclaimer that I'm a bi-racial African American, 23 yr old, female who happens to study the origins of music and is a musician.

Now I have to agreed strongly with Justin. Our age group like generations before listen to the same genres: Hip-Hop/Alternative Rock/Jazz/Country, etc. We don't pay attention to the Billboard magazines and if you haven't noticed that Faith Hill(which her last CD sounds more R&B than Country), Shania Twain and many other Country artists have gone pop then something's wrong. Sorry Duke it's the sign of the times. Also the music genres will continue to merge with a blend hit it's starting with Kid Rock, Outkast, and Pink!. Duke and rest will just have to sit back and take the ride from this generation because we are different and we don't care about the boundaries of music. Plus music is about expression. And we are just expressing ourselves many different ways. Duke you probably won't my style of music because do it all the rest of us in my age group. Also hint for you it's easier to market(I'm a PR intern in biz) because you have a wider audience. And another thing Country is one of the top sellers next to Hip-Hop. Both of them make tons of money those are the two top genres in American music today and radio stations know it and so do the labels. It's all about appeal--Elvis had it and so do others. Oh yeah Elvis is only artist who had a number one hit on a country station, race station and pop station at the same time. And wake up call hip-hop producers are looking towards country next to make that extra money for a bigger audience. Just wanted to let you know so you won't be in shock. Sorry luv 'the times are a changing'.

P.S. Blk people listen to country and bluegrass too. Get rid of that myth. And also American music is rooted from Western Africa and Spain and Medival Europe. There it's always been one big gumbo.

Luv u all and my music change ur hearts,
Nisa Jaie McCoy
future Rock n Roll Hall Of Famer

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Nisa Jaie McCoy
Writer/Performer
757.493.0679(t)
757.343.7744(c)
nisajaie@yahoo.com

Holy moly, how can you talk like this? I'm a white on white fifty five year old female and I apprecitate ALL music. If you really listen to rap-hip hop which by the way is the same, you may begin to appreciate the work. I'm not talking about the language, I don't like four letter words either, but lets face it, four letter words are used today. Country artists don't use those words is their songs no! but get into a private conversation with one of them and you'll hear those four letter words flying out of their mouths. It's reality and it's life. It's also art. These kids grew up in the streets, and this is their way of expressing life. Like it or not, it's going to be around for a very long time. Our daughter grew up in a household where none of that kind of talk was spoken, but when she began showing interest in hip hop, my husband and I never stopped her, because we knew that we raised her with values, morals etc. It never affected her other then the fact that she loves the beat and the stories the music tells. I myself happen to think that Eminem is a musical genious. Just try sitting down and writing some of this stuff, bet you can't. If you truly appreciate the art of music, you must appreciate all forms. Now I'm not talking about the violence in some of these songs, however, it has calmed down considerably. There isn't really that much anymore. Rappers are just trying to deal with reality and lets face it, life is no picnic. I enjoy all forms of music, yes some of it is just a bit too much, but that's what makes the world go round. Black entertainers have lead the way and paved the way for real true feeling in music, "soul" if you will, but that's just my opinion. And country as we once knew it is no longer, in case you haven't been listening. It has pulled away from the cryin' lyin' dyin' kind of twangy sound. Hank Williams is dead and so is his style of music thank God. His son is much better then his daddy ever was. But!! as I said before, that's just my opinion. But lets leave color out of it shall we? Music's blind all we do is hear it.
P.S. I'm not even a liberal, just use common sense.

That does it. I am going to sing my Song Really Nice Going, which I wrote in 1964 and believe to be the first ever rap song.
At the time I classed it as something twix talking blues which was big in country back then, and The Inkspots stuff.
It was in fact a poem that did not recite well without being given some braks that would not be acceptable in a reading.
Some really good points coming out of here I think.
Biggest one for me is folks always have, and always will take stuff way too seriously.
Second one is there is nothing new under the sun.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Eminem is a "genius" !/!

Omigosh !!!!!

that means M is to music as Einstein was to physics !

Yikes...I gotta get off this planet !

Bob Young