JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Question for experienced writers

Trueman, you are spot on in your answer,
and the name of the Publisher should not have gone up, on this site.

The big problem for me is they do not appear to have a Publishing site,or indeed any site, where we can listen to some of their songs.

I could tell you by listening to just thirty seconds of any song if they are in fact on the ball.

Pitching songs is normally done by the Publisher, and they do not charge the writer.

I would like to hear the song in question perhaps the guy who started this thread could direct me to his site so as I can hear this song.

They claim to have had an artist ready to record this song,

Let's give them the benifit of the doubt
until we can hear the song in question.

Ben for P.J.Xanadu Publishing and Mid Atlantic Records.

To sum all this up:

The 3 statements made by me during this exchange were:

1. Songwriters need to have a reasonable term reversion clause. Not having one is a terrible idea.

2. The company in question was wrong to revoke an offer to an innocent party because they were angry at others on this site who raised flags about them.

3. The company in question has a page called "Successes" which pictures a slew of famous album covers but explains in vague terms that they have worked with people who have been involved with the albums below. But they don't state (nor do I believe it's true) that they placed songs on each of those albums as publishers. Since it's a publishing site, it's very misleading to list those without a specific context. If you want to see "Successes" listed on a publishing site, you'd expect it to relate to what they do: Publishing songs. They easily could have post that list in their bio page as people they've worked with, but they didn't.

These 3 things are the issues I brought up during the discussion. As far as I am aware, there's still no mention of who these people are on this post, so outside of the handful of people who started the post, no one else will know. But they WILL understand that it's not appropriate or accepted practice to sign a publishing deal without a reversion clause. They may also learn to verify any claims made by a company on their website and not simply assume what you see is what is real. And perhaps that company will realize that punishing an innocent person because you're angry at a moderator or other party is both unprofessional and frankly immature.

I received an angry email from a friend of the company in question who is also the partner of Terri Lynn, our longtime coordinator. It was filled with personal attacks on me, on the organization, against Mike Dunbar's talent in the studio and it insulted every single member of JPF. Obviously I wasn't pleased to get this from someone who has never emailed me before and who frankly, I had no idea who he was. He also stated he would no longer offer discounts to JPF members, something which I never directly approved in the first place. He started the email with the question "Is JPF a SCAM" After my response (which basically stated the above as well as addressing some of his accusations asking for evidence that we were scamming someone) I received an email from Terri Lynn which she posted here as well. Since the entire discussion was not available (and if needed, I will be happy to post ALL of it in context) I deleted her response because it didn't make sense out of context. The essense of her statement was that the guy who sent the nasty email was her partner and drummer and that it was her studio (which he ran with her apparently) that was offering the discounts and that was approved (though not by me.. I wasn't even aware she currently had a studio after she stopped working with Mike Dunbar). She also explained that she feels my actions here have given JPF a bad name among her business associates and she has turned in her resignation as the Nashville Chapter Coordinator after 7 years.

I wrote her back and explained that no one has offered a dispute of the 3 main facts I brought up. Everyone is angry because I spoke out against a company that apparently is closely connect to/friends with Terri Lynn and her business partner. But I explained that if I looked the other way becuase it was a friend/insider, then all the work and integrity we've maintained all these years would be for nothing. We have to be open about problems whether they are within our circle of friends or not. In all this time I've never mentioned the companies name and my goal was to educate the members involved in the discussion as well as future members who will learn the facts involved. The company is far less relevent and no ones reputation is damaged if no one knows who we're even talking about. Apparently Terri Lynn and her partner disagree, but there's really no choice here.

If any of the parties involved want to dispute the 3 points above, please do so. If you're simply angry at me for pointing them out, then rant at me via email all you want, it won't change the truth of this. If Terri Lynn wants to walk away from 7 years of being involved with us, that's her choice. If we had kept our mouths shut and let a member sign his publishing rights away for life with no reversion simply because the company in question was friends with our staff, THEN she would have a valid reason to walk away. Sometimes the right thing to do is the least easy thing to do. So I wish Terri Lynn good luck and if she changes her mind she's always welcome to come back.

Brian

Ben,

You can find the song in question linked here: http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/Forum4/HTML/002463.html

If the claim that they were going to get the song cut right away, then someone please explain why they wouldn't be HAPPY to offer a reversion clause? As soon as the song was cut, they'd own the publishing forever anyway. It doesn't add up at all. As for the song, I'll let you comment on it.

Brian

nm

[This message has been edited by dspence (edited 05-10-2006).]

Hi Dspence,

No not at all, you seem an honest gent, my reply was to Graham who seemed to think a reversion Clause should last around one year, However I think you are better off without this company in Question, I see no reason they should get shirty, about the genuine answers given to your original question, having listened to what I believe was the song in question , I can tell you that the song is not ready for
the record market, as it is, it needs lots of work, it is quite monotonous, and has not enough variation in it to keep the listener interested.

The demo is frankly awfull, the singer
does nothing to sell the song, and the quality of the vocal is very poor.

If you were charged for this demo, you should get your money back.

I don't like up setting people, but I think this Thread should be closed,take on board all the comments and put it down to experience, You may not agree with me , but it is part of my job to listen to demo's, this song in it's present form is not ready, The title is very good, but it deserves a lot more thought, and re writing.

Sincerely Ben M.D. P.J.Xanadu Music Publishing, and Mid Atlantic Records

Thanks Ben.
All I have signed have been twelve months, and all I will sign, unless I choose to do othewrwise, and it would take a good bit to sway me to do so, will be twelve months.
If that means i don't get a lot of offers, I don't mind at all.
For the life of me, I can't see what takes a room full of artists so long to get something they want to do actually done.
Probably all that FX stuff to get them to sound somewhere near listenable in a lot of cases i would think.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

My last post on this thread.

The company in question contacted me and wanted to make amends about the bad feelings that came from this situation. We had a very productive and genuine conversation that validated my initial impressions of them. They also indicated that their thinking on reversion clauses had evolved as a result of all this. I am pleased that they contacted me, and feel better about the entire situation.

Just FYI.

Good for you and good for them.

I have to think the music business in Nashville "is a small world" and if this company is sufficiently reputable to cause Terri Lynn to quit JPF over it, to stand by them, then this move does not surprise me.

Good luck to both of you and keep us informed of how it goes.

My last post on this thread as well.
I, too, received the same type of phone call. Their honesty, openness, and just plain talk reminded me why I liked them from the beginning. I feel confident that I have made the right decision sticking with them.

“Judgements prevent us from seeing the good that lies beyond appearances.”
Wayne Dyer

Iggy
www.badbetsy.com

I decided to call these guys myself today to see what was up. After receiving a slew of hate filled emails from a third party about this, I was really becoming more and more suspicious of these guys. I think when you're connected to people who do bad things, it's hard for that stench not to rub off on you. So I wondered why they'd want to be associated with the third party who was launching attacks on me and JPF, but who avoided ever dealing with the issues at hand. So I called them myself. I am glad I did.

I spoke with both main partners at this primarily song plugging service for a long time. (They de-emphasized their roles as publishers to me and said their focus is really as song plugging). Both were extremely polite and professional, though I could sense their feelings had been seriously hurt because of this post. To their credit, they never at any time launched retaliation attacks. (Their friend did, but it wasn't by their request or their fault).

They started by carefully going over the 3 concerns I had point by point. They explained that they called their friend at ASCAP who confirmed my statement and that it is now common and accepted business practice to offer reversion clauses and that publishers who don't offer it are frowned upon. Their feeling was that in the past, they had done business as writers themselves without them, and they modeled their business plan after someone who didn't offer them. Between our statements and concerns and the verification by their own contact at ASCAP, they are changing their policy and now offer reversion clauses. To me, that's a big win for everyone involved. It will remove the stigma from them, it will protect our member who is working with them and it shows that my statements were not off base at all. It also shows that they are willing to adjust their policy to line up with acceptable business practices, something a "scam" artist would not do.

Next, they discussed my second concern that it wasn't appropriate for them to punish D Spence because they were angry at my comments and others who questioned their business practices. They explained that they got upset and bit hot over our comments and let that affect their actions. For them to openly admit this and rectify the situation directly with the parties involved, says a great deal about their class and integrity. It's not easy to do that when you feel you've been attacked. Even though I intentionally did not mention the company name, they knew who we were discussing and I can see how they'd get angry at that if they were in fact, honest guys. Though I would still do the same thing if the same situation came up (after all, my job here is to advocate for our community and help educate and protect them so they don't get ripped off) I also feel the equal responsibility to notify folks when we learn that someone is honest and has done everything within reason to correct the problem. I believe they have done that in this case. Though I still don't personally know these guys, I feel they've gone above and beyond to make all of this right. That's a very rare thing to find these days even with honest companies. And I now believe these guys are trying to do things above board and honestly. Their business practice was the problem, not their integrity and honesty and they've fixed it. I want to be clear that they've demonstrated that they are not scam artists. I am sorry their feelings were hurt, but given the same facts and scenario, I would just as passionately make the same comments again until the problems were fixed. I hope readers here can make the distinction. The problems have now been fixed.

The third concern I posted has ALSO been fixed. The text has been adjusted to make it clear what the information on their site is saying and what it means and doesn't mean. I especially appreciate that they did this. I know companies have to struggle to find their place in the market. Everyone tries to paint themselves in the most positive light they can. After all, this is business and more often than not, the competition is using every trick in the book to make them look like the best possible option in their business sector. I've always believe that honest companies don't need to mislead if they have the goods. I think they guys have a lot of years of experiences, a lot of real contacts in the business (and as we were talking, we learned we share some of the same friends and business associates). They've adjusted the text on their site so that the very real and credible successes are properly highlighted, while it will be much harder for someone to make the wrong assumptions about their part in those successes. That's the honest thing to do and the fact they changed it promptly is a great sign that they also want to be represented on honest terms. Good for them and I am glad for our part in clarifying that. They said they weren't aware of any confusion, which is not uncommon when you look at things internally. Their actions speak volumes about their integrity there as well.

Through our conversation I gained a lot of insight and respect for who these guys were. Though their business practices had some problems, they were quick to adjust them when they verified through other sources that our concerns were valid. They said they understood that perception is reality and unlike the many REAL scam artists who come here and simply attack the messenger, they instead investigated the claims and made very appropriate changes very quickly. That's what honest business do. For those who read about the REAL scam artists who come through this site, you'll see that the dishonest ones NEVER do the right thing. They just launch counter attacks, they get cronies to post objections or even come here under false pretenses to try and defend their dishonest practices. They guys were the opposite. I am quite satisfied that they are both honest and good guys who simply needed to adjust a few things to improve their business processes. And even though they got a bit hot under the collar, they already smoothed over the ruffled feathers of everyone involved, including me. I would feel comfortable doing business with these guys personally going forward. I hope they also feel the same in return. So, in my opinion, everything has turned out very positively for everyone involved. Except for 1 thing.

The one negative thing that has come out of this is the fallout with our coordinator Terri Lynn. She was put in the middle of all this. What made it worse is that her business partner escalated everything significantly with a series of insulting personal attacks directed towards myself, Mike Dunbar and JPF overall. I verified with the guys today that they did not ASK him to do that on their behalf. He made the attacks and threats and insults on his own. I've since been told he's a hothead and can even cross over to violence (he broke his own hand when he got angry and punched a wall over not getting what he wanted) and frankly, another good thing that has come out of this is that I know we don't want to associate with anything this guy does. I doubt I could ever trust him nor could I let any member I know do business with him without full disclosure. He stated he felt JPF was a scam. He offered no evidence or support of this. If he felt we were a scam, why has he been voluntarily involved locally with JPF and why has he been trying to earn studio income by working with our members and offering discounts? I wouldn't intentionally do business with someone I believed was a scam artist or with an organization whose members were (and I quote him exactly here)

"an organization primarily made up of whiners, complainers, wannabe's, and amateurs."

Since he feels that way, but was still happy to do business with us, it really puts his integrity in question. Would any of you reading this voluntarily do business with a group of people you felt that way about? Would you voluntarily do business with, host events for and associate daily with the local rep of a scam artist? I would hope not. Apparently for this guy, it was not a problem until just now.

The fact that he inserted himself in a confrontation that had nothing to do with him personally and he actually made everyone look far worse by his actions, I have no interest in ever having him involved in anything JPF related going forward. Though I am sure (based on his comments) that he doesn't care what I think, it sadly makes it impossible to reconcile with Terri Lynn who is in the middle as his business partner. It's a sad fallout that he escalated the situation when it wasn't his battle, that he was the only party to make direct personal attacks and insults on specific people and that he was profiting from using the JPF name to generate studio business by offering discounts to members without my knowledge or endorsement. After all is said and done, in my opinion, he's the ONLY bad guy in this scenario. But I am glad I know his true nature so I can avoid him in the future. It's just too bad that Terri Lynn is the baby in his batch of nasty bathwater.

So, unless the primary participants here have more comments, I think this has been resolved. Mike Dunbar is also going to meet with these guys face to face and I will likely drop in to meet them next time I am in town.

As they said to me at the end of our conversation, they had far more contentious starts with the women they eventually married. Yeah, they have a sense of humor as well.

Brian

Acurate communication.
The key to understanding.
You, and they did good Brian.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Brian and Ben.... did you hear this one? I actually went looking for David's material here and found Tobacco Road...far better IMO...

http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/Forum21/HTML/004299.html


And Brian, good for you to follow up and get this posted. Now can we see a link to their site as well so everyone can see for themselves who the good guys are??


And too bad about TL, I do like her and respect what she's done all these years..

I recieved a phone call from the company in question a few days ago. The fellow I spoke with seemed friendly and genuine. I accepted his invitation to meet with him tomorrow...he bribed me with a fresh pot of coffee...the regulars here know about me and coffee

I'm very saddened by the fallout of all this. Terri Lynn's brother, who passed away a few years ago, was my best friend. It was Terri who introduced me to JPF, she has served here admirably over the past seven years.

I am happy, though, that the company is getting it's name cleared. Hopefully, the original post naming them did not reach a lot of readers. It was a very good move on the part of the thread's author to remove said name. I am equally happy to find JPF's advice once again having a positive effect on the Nashville music business community. Unfortunately, sometimes good advice can hurt. For example, my doctor just told me, "NO MORE PIZZA!"

Graham's comment is the most relevant: it all comes down to communication. It's ironic that we musicians and songwriters, whose very business is communication, often have problems in that area.


Anyway I'll post back here tomorrow after meeting with the gentlemen. I just hope they don't serve pizza with the coffee.

All the Best,
Mike



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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Well, I just got back from a very pleasant meeting with three nice guys, the two principals in the company, their attorney, and just enough coffee (I can tell when it's too much coffee, my heart hurts.)

There have been several misunderstandings, no surpise there. To recap Brian, they are primarily song pluggers and demonstrated to me that they work, get cuts, and are willing to not only do what it takes to prove their own reputations, but are even interested in helping make the entire song plugging industry more transparent and responsible.

Their being pro-active in this by personally contacting me has been a large indicator of their good inentions. I do NOT think they are scams AT ALL. As a matter of fact, I'm going to recommend to Razzy Bailey that they help him with some pitching.

As far as they and I are concerned, the matter has been closed to our satisfaction, we parted friends and look forward to doing business together. The only thing they and I regret, and are indeed very concerned about, is the fallout with Terri Lynn. I know her business partner. I'll give him a call, maybe we can have a little coffee, I'll buy, sit down face to face, and soften this a bit.

Well, now I've just spoken with Razzy, and he's very interested in meeting these fellows to possibly help him with some song-plugging.

By the way, I was also impressed with the company's attorney. A nice young chap who is savvy about the music biz. I even asked him if he likes U2. He said he does, so I guess that makes him "pro Bono" (sorry counsellor).

The lessons? Communicate. Get the facts straight. Don't name people when asking innocent business advice on the internet, just outline the situation. Things are not always as they seem. Be courteous and gentlemanly or ladylike (is that pc? it might be mac). Don't drink too much coffee. And, get a good entertainment attorney.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum



[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 05-12-2006).]

You are a good man Mike Dunbar.
Regards.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Thanks Graham, and I don't even get paid for this! I guess that makes me good for nothing.

Mike



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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Divine intervention is often done for free.
Thank you Saint Mike!

Jerry

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Jerry Jakala

Oh, please don't call him St Mike...
He's hard enough to deal with now

Bob

Brian, I am very pleased that the truth about the boys is finally known.. Now I'll clear up a couple of more statements that are also unfounded and untrue.
My partner (he's actually one of the partners) is not and has not
crossed over into violence...However, he was very angry over all of this.. I don't deny that.. He did not break his finger while hitting a wall because he couldn't have his way.. That is absolutely untrue, however he did break a finger grabbing the dog after he tore up some stuff in the studio...
So, whoever stated this untruth, should ask me if they are confused..
You ask why he voluntarily involved himself and his money in JPF Jams and events,,,, as he told you in an email, I defended you and your members vehemently to him and he was supporting my stand...
And as I clearly stated to you on the phone, he nor I have ever used JPF or it's forum to try and get studio business... Anytime anyone called me asking about using our studio, after the deal was figured, I would then ask if they were JPF members , by chance, if they said yes, I told them I was the TN Coordinator and that I would like to give them a ten percent discount to help out. If they said No, and ask what it was, that was my chance to turn new folks onto what I believed and still do was the best internet networking group of people they could ever hope to meet.. Almost every time they joined and I'd give them the discount. My partner honored this because I believed in you guys. and he believed in me... And the only thing I was angry about through all of this was the name calling and that I was having a very hard time getting anyone to check them out to prove them unfounded. I am satisfied that the truth has come out.. I still believe in this group and I always will. I truly believe in Brian and his dream. which is simply to make your dreams come true...
Terri Lynn

What impresses me the most about this thread is the positive outcome from direct and honest communication.

Just goes to show that you can't always know a lot about a company without taking the time to investigate and ask questions. I am glad that some things have been smoothed over, and hope that this company knows that many of us are now sufficiently reassured of their honesty and integrity

Emily
emilysanders.net

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 05-13-2006).]

Heh-heh. They cut and run, my man, they knew they couldn't snow you any more after they heard the advice you were getting on here. You had a narrow escape. Be happy. You want to know how they can afford to be located where they are? Inexperienced songwriters pay for it is how.

BB

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posters

david,

call me or email me sometime

ande
512-217-2728
AndeRasmussen@aol.com




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Ande Rasmussen
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http://www.AndeRasmussen.com
http://songramp.com/ande

http://www.MySpace.com/anders

Editor Of "Inspirations for Songwriters"
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