JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum They Might Be a Shark If...(Dangers of the Music Biz)

These are signs...red flags...they don't all mean that you are dealing with a 100% scamming, money-stealing, music biz shark, but when these things happen, hold onto your debit card and start doing your homework.

(Please feel free to post and add to these)

They Might Be a Shark If...(with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy)

When they want you, as a songwriter, to pay for demos that they will publish. There are reputable people who do this, but watch out.

When they want to manage or pitch you as an artist and produce your demos. Make sure they have been often successful doing this. There is hardly anything worse for your career than being represented by a known "shark."

When they say they can make you a star, get you a great gig, love your hair, know (fill in the name of your favorite artist) personally, have friends at all the major labels.

When they say the gig doesn't pay, but it is great "exposure." (I've heard you can die of exposure.)

When they won't give you any contact info for satisfied clients.

When they won't tell you what stars they've helped.

When they want you to sign anything right away. Always get an experienced music attorney.

When they charge way too much. For beginning songwriters and singers, demos should go from $100 to $300 a song...masters should go on up to $1000 a song, but make sure if you pay over $500 a song you're getting great musicians and studios (and besides, that's a little stiff for a beginner). If you're a band that doesn't need musicians, hire a studio that's used to beginning bands and don't pay more that $50 an hour. If you don't know the difference between a demo and a master, then before you spend any money...DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

Any additions?

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 07-26-2005).]

Great topic, Mike! I think you pretty much listed most of the danger sings that i would have pointed out...I hope that this thread helps some people to distinguish between honest people and the sharks...

Emily
emilysnaders.net

http://cdbaby.com/cd/emilysanders

... When their website does not exist or has posted a "Under Construction" sign for the last 2-3 months...

...When your Google search on their name yields only hits to the JPF and other forums
pertaining to other songwriters who have been ripped off....

.... When you're asked to send a $500 cash deposit for your Demo in small unmarked bills to a P.O. Box somewhere just outside Nashville.....

.... When they tell you that your song is just perfect for Toby or Tim or Kenny or even Brooks & Dunn.....

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Steve West
Steve's Website

They have a dorsel fin and large serated teeth.

When they tell you you don't need a lawyer to review the contract, you can just sign it now, "to get started," and if anything needs to be changed "we can deal with that later." [Really, I've seen this happen]

If they say they found you while surfing an internet web site but don't specifically discuss you personally, your specific songs, and clearly are addressing the email only to you, with direct phone numbers, names and contact info so you can quickly and easily get back to them.

It's rare (to almost never) that someone legit has to surf the web to find music to do business with. In the VERY rare case someone actually has, they would obviously be VERY upfront with all their contact info and want you to call them directly to discuss specific music. They WOULDN'T be mass contacting ANYONE EVER! Repeat: They would never be legit if they were contacting you and MANY others (or thousands of others as is often the case).

Learn how to tell the difference from SPAM and legitimate interest. Use common sense. If it seems too good to be true, it is.

If they ask for you money for ANYTHING, it's BS. You don't pay to get a record deal. You don't pay to get a publishing deal. You don't give half your writing credits to a song mill. If you pay for a demo, you own 100% of the song and they are nothing more than a demo service. If they offer any other arrangements, they are full of BS!

No one can guarentee you anything. No guarenteed airplay (even the payola schemes don't generate airplay 100% of the time). No guarenteed record deal. No promises of major labels seeing you at a "showcase" (which are 99% scams designed to get entry fees from you or at best, a scheme to get interest so a few hand picked artists can get exposure when they could have gotten those artists exposure on their own merit).

Any time someone asks you to pay them money, or to participate in the expenses, it's usually a scam. Sure, there are ALWAYS legit people out there and special exceptions. But when it ANY doubt, assume it's a scam unless otherwise proven.

Use this boards and others like it to find out the truth about anyone who finds you on line. It's the newest haven for scam artists. Legit companies have long "wish lists" full of artists and songs they desperately would love to work with if there was time/resources/opportunities. It's silly to think they have to randomly surf the net to find talent if they are for real.

Unless you have a track record of commercial sales of your music, or a strong track record of getting booked for paid gigs locally with great attendance and references, unless you've got a radio ready album of songs and unless you are either VERY interesting to look at (if you're older), or reasonably youthful/attractive, unless you are doing something VERY original that has a small but passionate number of fans.. unless some or all of these things are true, it's VERY unlikely that anyone legit is going to be interested in doing business with you. It doesn't mean folks can't love your music. But business people aren't going to invest in something that can't recoup and the moment they ask YOU for money, the only thing that's being invested in is the scam artists retirement fund.

Brian

One more thing:

Learn to tell the difference between a service provider and an opportunity.

A service provider, offers specific services, actions, and products for a specific fee without promising ANY results.

Examples of legit service providers: TAXI, NSAI, Disc Makers, Oasis CD Duplication, CD Baby, Hostbaby, SongU, Musicians Friend, Guitar Center, Sam Ash, iTunes, Virgin Digital, etc.

Other "types" of services that can be offered:

Recording Studio services (i.e. demo houses). But ONLY if they offer upfront prices, don't ask for ownership of your material, can provide samples of their other work for you to check out, and they hand you YOUR masters when you are done.

Lawyers/Attorneys who offer to perform specific services for specific fees. Always check references!

Producers: These folks help you put together and record your album. They are like movie directors and movie producers combined. They should also have specific fees and should not automatically get co-writing credit unless you actually CO-WRITE songs with them (and unless that was YOUR choice.. not theirs.. unless they are producing you at their expense).

Managers: Managers are often like expensive luxury items. If you have to ask how much they are, you can't afford them. In this case, if you have to ask if you "need" one, you likely DON'T. Managers usually work off a percentage of your business. If you aren't making enough money to be able to pay them a percentage and still make enough money for yourself, you aren't ready for one. If you don't know what a manager even does, YOU AREN'T ready for one! You should learn all those tasks yourself first. Once your career is SO BUSY you don't have time to do those things any more, and there's so much money pouring in that you need to focus on THAT.. THEN you need a manager.

Booking Agents: They work on a percentage. Getting you "free" gigs to do are fine as long as they are not getting paid either. (If they think it's a good career move for you to play free, then it's just as good as them for them to book you for that gig free right?). Are there exceptions? Sure. But when it doubt, the rule of thumb is that a booking agent gets you PAID gigs and takes a percentage. Period. In some states, it's illegal to serve as both manager and booking agent (unless you, the artists are doing it yourself). Check your local laws to find out.

Radio Promotions: There are very few circumstances where it makes sense to use radio promotion. Only consider it if:

1. You are playing regularly or doing a specific tour in the area where the stations are during the time you are there.

2. You have product available for sale in stores/locations in those areas during the time of airplay.

If those 2 things (at minimum) aren't true, then why bother with radio promotion? Even if someone hears your music, they can't buy it. What's the point? Yet so many people think a little airplay here or there is going to help them. It's like pissing in the wind. And this all ASSUMES that the Radio Promoter is legit. If they aren't, nothing matters, its wasted money.

I could go on and on, but hopefully you're getting the point. Are there exceptions to all these points? Sure. But 99% of the time they are correct. Make someone PROVE they’re legit and ALWAYS check with others to get unbiased feedback. Don't ever give them the benefit of the doubt. Scam artists can be VERY compelling. They are great at saying ALL THE RIGHT things to you. Remember, their business is not doing what they are promising, their REAL business and talent is getting you to give them money to falsely follow your dreams using their bogus services/methods/techniques.

Also remember: Even if someone had hits at one time, even if they worked in the studio with many famous names, even if they themselves were famous on some level, that doesn't mean they can do ANYTHING for you! Seriously! Think about it. If they can get songs placed, write hits songs or find the pathway back to success, why aren't they still doing it for themselves first? This doesn't mean people with credits/hits can't be honest and good at what they do, it just means that former track record doesn't prove they can help you do anthing at all! They many have gotten those hits because THEY had brilliant people helping them and didn't do much of it for themselves at all! That said, being formerly (or currently) famous isn't an evil thing. I know many folks who are/have been famous and some who still are active in their music careers. But they’re STILL working their asses off everyday with no easy rides if they are still finding success. Having a past record of success is like the stock market: it's absolutely NO GUARENTEE of future success, or even a strong indicator.
Be careful out there. There are a lot of people who make their living not off of creating music success, but in your desperate pursuit of it.

Honest companies/people can honestly charge you money for specific and legit services. Don't confuse someone charging you money with scamming you. But make sure they are offering something tangible and definite in return. Not dreams or hopes or "success."
If you do that, it's less likely you'll ever get scammed by anyone.

Brian


[This message has been edited by Brian Austin Whitney (edited 07-28-2005).]

Mike I found your post to be very informative,unfortunatly I fell for a deal acouple of years ago, that conisted of nearly every warning sign you mentioned,and I now chalk it up to an expensive lesson learned. However,Those who have gotten to know me on these boards know that I don'ttake kindly to being wronged,so I'M NAMING NAMES! Any of you Nashville folks familiar with Castle records and ceo Ed Russell? {50 music square w. united artist tower} I signed a one year "developemental deal"and recorded a 4 song demo. The deal was that they had a one year period to shop me around to the majors,if there were no takers,I had the option of cutting an album on their label. Their supposed incentive to get me signed was that Ed would either produce my debut cd {highly unlikey} or be bought out{also unlikely} but I had no better offers, so I took a chance. The demo cost me 6 grand {to be fair,the engineer and session musicians were reputable and highly regarded { Engineer Ron Treat has worked with scores of major artists, including Hank jr,Reba, Merle,and many others. And the musicians resumes {and I made sure to verify this!} included everyone from Tina Turner to Ringo Star to Neil Young. As one might expect,the musical performances were expertly {if passionlessly }executed. The problems started when they brought in a backing vocalist in my absence to cut harmony vocals that I was less than thrilled with,and when I said so Ed claimed that is was not within the budget to recut. Furthermore, I had no proof that he shopped the demo to anyone, just his word. The last straw came when he submitted a budget to me to record an album and expected me to go in half!!! Needless to say when my contract was up we parted ways,and I was left with a demo I wasn't totally happy with, and abank account 6 grand lighter. Funny thing though, 2 weeks after we parted ways the united artist tower caught fire, and Castle Records was a total loss!{I swear I was in Cincinnati at the time,makes you wonder about karma though. I wanted to share this story to spare someone else getting took like I did and to find out if any Nashville members have had dealings with these people.

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bc

Hi All,
I have submitted songs to Ed Russell and others that all work about the same way. They put out calls for songs for an Artist they are working with and if all goes well they do what BC has posted.

It has been posted from time to time that if an artist doesn't have a track record, booking and playing dates, they need to do that before they try for a record deal.
It is known that an artist signing to a Major Label has to have a backer that puts up from $175,000 to $250,000. The Label's don't do it.

My Publisher told me about someone that went to Nashville and put up about $14,000 to do a 2 song demo. My Publisher warned him to pass on it but he done it anyway.

If you are trying to break into the music business there are better ways to do it.

Some studios can do a whole Album, probably with 1000 Cd's. publicity photos, ready to go for between 5 and 7 thousand dollars. They also put out calls for songs and want publishing if they get them recorded. But you still have to be ready to promote yourself by booking and playing dates. It is also been said that the music business is a tough business.

I once told a young female artist that she need a track record before a label would sign her. She said no that's not true. Sorry but it is.

There are plenty of people in Nashville that will help you get into the music business, for a price, but you had better be ready to go.

BC,

That's a classic example of a scam. And to Ray, please make it clear: and artist looking for a deal should NOT (nor their family, friends or neighbors) be the people putting up money in a record deal. I don't know any legit labels who made an artist pay 175K to launch their record deal? Your post implies otherwise.

Brian

While I'm naming names I thought I'd put out a heads -up about another company on music row.Redhorse/ row-pro records {17th ave s.} offered me an almost identical deal as Castle records and wanted to charge me $10,0000!! their ceo is Ron Cotton. These 2 company's are the bottom feeders of "the row" and should be avoided. P.S I DO have a track record and fan base,which makes me all the more ashamed that someone of my experience would be taken in by these clowns,but at the time I thought that if I didn't pursue it, one day I'd be sitting around wondering "what if",and I know people who have pissed away alot MORE money than me on more frivolous things than chasing their dream,and at least I can say I recorded on music row with some great musicians{someone played on my demo who played on a former Beatles album!} {although the guys who play on my albums I cut at home are just as good!} The bottom line is these companys prey on people's dreams, so beware!

Brian,
I am being extremely clear. Every Artist that got signed to a Major Label had someone put up the money. Call someone and ask if the Label backed Garth Brooks with their money or someone else done it. Everything I have read over the last several years says someone else other than the Labels's done it. Usually a backer that expected some return on their investment. And the prices I posted are in the ballpark. As was reported about Garth, when he first went to Nashville he didn't get a deal and went back home before he was sucessful. But to be sure do some checking and let us know.

I didn't say family and friends, I said a backer.

Ray,

Okay.. I asked Ed Toth of Vertical Horizon if they had to put any money/investment for their record deal.. answer? None. Also Fisher, who was on Interscope. They got a giant signing bonus and certainly didn't fund anything. I am going to ask Simon Steadman as well who just left their label deal recently, but I am guessing in general, that most artists are not asked to fund their own label deal unless (and this is a big unless) they are retaining ownership of their masters (like Garth) or something similar. But the average artists getting signed isn't funding or paying and is bring the talent and marketability, not the funding.

Brian

Perhaps you're confusing investors who invest in artists as a separate/unrelated deal? For example, I find a great artist and give them 100K to keep touring etc.. so that they can interest a label and get a deal and sell a bunch of records and at that time I get a percentage? But that's separate from the label requiring an investor. Now perhaps the label is selling investment shares, but again, I haven't heard of a major label telling the artist "bring X dollars in investment and we'll sign you." What would be the point of the deal? Few major label artists ever get more than their signing bonus in the first place.. Vertical Horizon never made another dime after their signing and they have the largest airplay song in the entire world with "Everything She Wants" that year. Only the vocalist/songwriter ever made another dime after their initial signing, but they also didn't pay the label to sign them or supply investors.

Brian

I read the exact information about a backer in a Tip Sheet I suscribed to by someone in the music business since the early 60's. My main point was that a Record Label, Major or Indie will want the Artist to provide some, or all the money required. That may not be anything but business rather than a scam.

I have heard of Major Labels advancing the money to Artists to get an Album cut. Exactly how the money was aquired or the deal struck may have not been covered with the Artist so who ever puts up the money may be in the background but it came from somewhere.

It has also known that a Label will recoup all the money advanced, and maybe then some before the Artist sees one thin dime. Ask the Dixie Chicks, who sold, I think 20 million albums and got nothing at that time. They baulked at recording anything else until they saw some money. Clint Black also said that he sold 20 million albums and didn't see anything.

Ricky Skaggs said much the same thing. He didn't make any money until he went Indie.

Artist's don't just walk in a Record Label and get signed. Someone pays for it. It probably isn't even discussed with the Artist. But it will be covered in the recording contract, if you can find it. I have read it other places but it's been a while. Maybe Courtney Love's article.

It has also known that a Label will recoup all the money advanced, and maybe then some before the Artist sees one thin dime. Ask the Dixie Chicks, who sold, I think 20 million albums and got nothing at that time. They baulked at recording anything else until they saw some money. Clint Black also said that he sold 20 million albums and didn't see anything.


Hello,
I also heard that Clint Black sold 20 million cds and never received as much as a worthless thank you card.

I blame the artist manager and attorney for allowing the contractual obligation to be generated in the first place.

A good contract should have allowed the artist to collect at least one dollar for each of the cds sold.

Just my opinion, Daris.

I've spoken with several more artists who have had major label record deals and still, to date, not a single one was ever asked to put up cash to get signed. I still say that so called "labels" or people who promise to get you signed to a label for a fee are frauds. I've spoken with people directly. This isn't me reading something, or heresay or an article and certainly not from someone who is in the business of charging people money to sign them to a bogus label deal.

Artist DO pay for everything that happens. Any money coming in is taken against expenses incurred. But that is STILL not upfront money. I still haven't spoken with anyone who has even been asked, let alone actually paid anyone for their "label deal."

Brian

When they communicate at a third graders grammar level,can't substantiate their claims, and start name-calling when you ask legitimate questions. Hi, Kenny!

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bc

[This message has been edited by bcushing (edited 12-30-2005).]

[This message has been edited by bcushing (edited 12-30-2005).]