JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback Lyric Feedback Forum 3 "Remembering" ( Kaley, Lynn, Sub (Mike) Collaboration)

Hi Friends,

Kaley asked if I would post this here. It is also posted over on the MP3 Board.

To quickly summarize what happened...
1. Kaley wrote a beautiful melody (again!)
2. I was touched and wrote lyrics (without Kaley knowing it)
3. Sub (Mike)was also moved and decided to put his voice (which by the way he did beautifully and passionately) to the melody with lyrics (without Kaley knowing it) hence an unplanned, spontaneous collaboration borne of inspiration on all three counts.

Please note that in the 1st verse 6th line Sub sings an extra word there. It will either be "but" or "yet"but it is undecided as of now. Also he left out the last line of the lyric in the sing. I think he ran out of breath perhaps but in a finished demo that would be added. We feel this would be perhaps something fitting the film/classic ballad criteria. Would appreciate your comments/critiques. Please allow for an instrumental break around 1:50 to 2:18 resuming with the last verse at 2:18. Thank you.

Remembering with Vocal
http://www.substudiomusic.com/Remembering.mp3

�Remembering� (work in progress)
�2007 Kaley melody
Lyrics Lynn
Vocals Sub (Mike)

Though you�re not here
Your memory�s clear
As I�m remembering
That summer day
You went away
But (yet) my heart knows
We�ll meet again
So till then
I will remember
The smile you wore
One I adore
(And) always will.

Bridge:
I still see the laughter in your eyes,
I can feel your gentle touch,
Hear the way you softly call my name,
Almost like you never left at all,
Almost like you�re home
(So).. I�ll never be, I�ll never be, alone.

Though it may be
sometime till we
Can be together love
My heart will wait
Anticipate the day and hour
Though time goes slow
Love still grows
So until then love
Your memory
Will stay with me
(And) always will.

Musical break at 1:50 till 2:18

Though you�re not here
Your memory�s clear
For I�m remembering
Although today
You�re far away
You�re in my heart
The time will pass
Till at last
We�ll be together
The smile you wore, one I adore I soon will see
The smile you wore you�ll wear again once more for me.

Well, Lynn has one of the toughest jobs in songwriting IMO. Writing a "generic--non specific lyric for film music that still "says" something. I still haven't any sound so can only crit the lyrics. From the comments on MP3, I think maybe folks are being influenced by the music-vocal-and the fact that the words fit the music well, but-----Sorry Lynn.--I don't think the lyrics by themselves can stand alone as they ideally should be able to. I "will" say I think the bridge is quite good.
Read the lyrics by themselves--how much do they say that's "new" or "different"?----'Too" generic IMO
The first segment that's partly repeated can I think, be better and still be non-specific. You have memory and remembering, nearly the same thing, in succeeding lines.. In line 2, maybe something about "My mind sees you clear" or something to get away from "memory". In line 4, something more descriptive than "summer day" That last ____day or something.
"wore-adore" like some of the other rhymes, too "convenient" or obvious.
I could gp on but that's probably more than enough <G>.
I could be out in left field by myself, but is so, that's all right. wouldn't be the first time.
Good luck with it to all involved or who may be involved, since nothing appears cut n' dried yet
Wy

Hi Wy,

Thanks for looking over the lyrics and your suggestions. I agree that for the most part the lyrics are not groundbreaking or new. These words came simply out of being hit in the heart from Kaley's melody. It is still what we are calling a "work in progress" and there will be areas that we will revisit. I also told Kaley that she is under no obligation to accept these lyrics if she finds others she prefers or if she decides to go "lyricless" if you will. The lyrics here are indeed "generic". I personally prefer that style of writing in this genre, but again I am willing to listen to any and all ideas. Hope you get to listen to it. I think Kaley has it posted on her Soundclick if you can't hear it through Mike's. Thanks so much Wy.

Best,
Lynn
P.S. Perhaps in the last verse where the first two lines say:

Though you're not here
Your memories clear

It could be changed to:

Though you're not here
I feel you near ???

Hi Lynn

It was a great expierence doing this with you guys... I hope we can keep improving on it. It is a speciality type song like you and I already talked about. It's like that honeymooners episode Back when ten thousand singer were in the mainstream of the business they needed 10 thousand songs each... Those days are gone but maybe we can find a place for this style and the direction of this version.

Wy is right writing for flims is not as easy as it seems... Writing vague is hard and it's what I'm good at.
Could we change the entire approach to make it a country hit like song? No i don't think this feel or music fits that at all... So waht world does that leave us in?
Hmm, Like I said years ago we had so many solo vocalists and they didn't write songs either. Now outside of Country & Teeny Pop I can't think of 5 male solo singers.
Let me try - Okay Josh Grobin The Englias kid That guy Marc Anthony..
Hmmm! even females are all Country or R&B ones that just stand and sing not singer songwriters.

I write vague... but if you give me a target and a game plan I can be pretty dangerous If I can stay focused. Maybe we should take a peek at some of the material from the people i just mentioned and make some alterations to update the vibe of the tune.. I do love the old school style...

You my friend should have been writing for Johnny Mathis

Hi Mike,

I enjoyed the experience on this as well. I too hope we can find a home for this for several reasons. It does seem sad that few and far between are the likes of of Frank, Tony Bennett, Johnny Mathis, etc. but I'm holding out hope. There is still an audience that loves that kind of music (I know some young people who love this kind of music in addition to their country and rock). A few you didn't mention who fit the criteria of solo male singers who would fit this bill possibly (and great ones at that) are Harry Connick Jr. and Michael Buble.

Here's to the "old school style" you mentioned!! May it never die!! I hope there will always be a niche' for those timeless simple classic songs. We may be in a minority here on JPF but that's okay. Sure, I'll write for Johnny!

Best,
Lynn

Mornin' Lynn...Mornin Mike......... I said I was gone from the board.....till January....but saw a few threads....I needed to and (wanted) to post on.... and thought I should stop by here....too.

Thank you both..Lynn and Mike for being inspired by something
I wrote....Like I'd said on the other board..., I didn't even
know if this was worthy when I posted it...One of my tough critics...(my son)..said Mom, you're using that chord again...
(something that must drive him batty)...and since I don't know chords...I thought he was saying it sounded too much like something else I'd written...so I wasn't even going to post it. And ..I was too close to it because of my old pup. Sometimes I think we all get too close to something we write....and can't tell what's what or at least I surely do.

Lynn,Sounds Like Sub has some suggestions to offer...and you Both targeted some of the style of singers this would be geared for. I very much like the idea of reviewing the current lyrics Josh is singing....and others like him. I'll Be Excited To See... What You Two Working Together.... Come Up With......drawing on each other's strengths...which are MANY....... I hope we can do this too!!!!... ( PLEASE let me know if you two working together on the lyrics works for both of ya.....)and also, if it helps,...don't feel tied to the title. I can always keep "Remembering" for my instrumental version.

I have a couple posts to make.. ...and then I'll catch up with y'all....first or 2nd week in January.

Hugs and Thanks you two.........
Kaley

Piano Melodies and Demos:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=8404&content=music
Children Songs:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=6469&content=music
Wyman and Kaley's Andy & Friends CD
http://cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg

Hi Kaley and Mike,

I'm certainly in if Mike's in. I feel like you're the mom who just gave the kids the keys to the candy store and we have to watch it while you are gone. Well I'd be honored to watch the store (melody) and work on sweetening the candy (lyrics) along with Mike, Mike you there???? Of course we will welcome and want to hear any of your ideas when you come back since this is a three-way collab. Mike let me know if you are in for the long haul for you would truly be a welcomed partner. We'll miss you Kaley but we will make you proud.

Best,
Lynn

Hi Guys I mean Gals

Lynn did Kaley just leave us to do whatever we want untill January? lol...
Don't everyone wish they had such creative license lol...

I'll start looking into it... and keep in touch with you Lynn on the PM's
Yes I love those old songs as well. I grew up on them but of course found my way through Rock N Roll and Soul Music.
Look back on some of the lyrics to some of those Giant songs... we can do it.
I just have to get focused, when I put my attention on one thing I am unstoppable.

And you are just as bad as me

Hi Again

Okay before I go here is Josh Grobins big hit song

Look at this chorus... matter of fact it's all chorus and what? Is this for real?
Looks like something a girl was writing in class next to me back when I was in the 6th grade then told to repeat it and write it on the black board 100 times
Must be a great melody & voice that made this a big hit.... How rare! lol...

You Raise Me Up

When I am down and, oh my soul, so weary;
When troubles come and my heart burdened be;
Then, I am still and wait here in the silence,
Until you come and sit awhile with me.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up: To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up: To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up: To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up: To more than I can be.
You raise me up: To more then I can be.

Always try to write & do your best... but don't ever let anyone tell you it ain't all about the melody, voice, style and sound....in this business Lynn

HIDee Kids!

So Far, Great Job...BUT..it feels like a "Hook-less Song" to my More-Lyrically-Oriented Ears.

COULD be A HIT with bitta re-write, Just use that Fine Line ya only Used ONCE..."I'll Never Be Alone"..as a Refrain at end of each Verse. It's a KILLER Hook..

Good Luck to all...It's Definitely "Getin' There!"

JMO..K-O-S

Big Hugs,
Stan

Well, I'd have to disagree with Mike on the lyrics to "You Raise Me Up". I think they're pretty dang good lyrics. "I'd" like to write something that good <G>. It's "got" a hook. The refrain ties the whole thing together and makes it work. "Like Stan referred to) It's also a perfect vehicle for a good singer to show his stuff. It "sings right off the page"
There "are" hit songs where the lyrics don't say much and the music and vocalist "carried" it. But I always contend that it made it "in spite of" the lyrics. How much better if the lyrics "also" "said something". then people could say "that song had it all. lyrics music and vocalist"---which is the ideal. And--I say and <G> who was this singer and musician who pulled off this feat where the lyrics don't say much? You can just about bet.it was no "unknown" like 'usuns. A lot of people buy " everything" one of their favorite artists puts out.. Writing "vaguely" is easy. Vague or "Generalized" lyrics can be written that are still good lyrics but it's tough
Maybe more than anybody wanted to hear on the subject but that's all right. Ain't in no popularity contest. Jes' calls 'em like I seez 'em <G>
Wy

Hi Mike,

I am thrilled you would like to continue with this creative endeavor. I am excited about the potential we have going. Let's listen closely and weigh all ideas here on this thread, the MP3 thread, and Kaley's when she returns. I think when we private message each other we should always include Kaley's PM address as well so when she does return, she can read what transpired and be able to better weigh in as well. Looking forward to your "unstoppable" and "focused" attention. Thank you so much!

Best,
Lynn

Hi Stan,

Thank you for looking this over for us. We are looking for input and you raise a valid point. The hook does seem perhaps clouded. It could be "remembering", "the smile" or "never be alone". We will have to try and zero in on what we want the hook to be. I am not sure if a hook in this genre has to be as strong as in say for instance a country song. I would guess that it would but wish I knew for sure. As I look what Mike used above from Josh Grobin it is clear the hook is "You Lift Me Up" for it is repeated almost incessantly (in a good way). Thanks for bringing the "hook" factor to our attention.

Best,
Lynn

Hi Wy,

I am so grateful that you stand your ground and say what you feel. I respect your honesty and would far prefer someone speak the truth in love than just say "oh it's wonderful", etc. etc. if it really wasn't. In all truth we all must admit that there are "hits" out there where infact the melody and vocals "carry" the song in spite of weak or shabby lyrics, I think that's a fact of life and evident if you just listen to what's on the radio. I also think sometimes it is merely preference between individuals and what they like or look for in a song. While with this type of melody I prefer "vague" lyrics over specific, I am not against rolling up my sleeves and thinking about how the lyrics might be improved. Quite honestly I don't like shabby or quick fixes and if I can improve upon this I will strive towards that I promise. It is alittle "tough" also because the lines and phrases are very short and I only have so much to work with meterwise, but Mike and I will give it our best. Thanks again!!

Best,
Lynn
P.S. Just curious...have you been able to get your sound up on this yet?

Hi Guys

I'll have to say that this Josh Grobin song is exactly 100% one of those songs
the music, mood melody & voice carry it 90% and are the reason for it being a Hit

What these lyrics do is blend that's what they are there for. They have an emotional content to them but jump off the page? I think not... I put this song up without even checking out the lyrics, in hopes that we would find something that made us go... Oh okay! boy are we way off, lets study this. Studying this does us no good. Yes Lynn you need to resolve to a common hook line at the end of each section... That would help, Stan's suggestion is in the right direction okay there's a rythme for you... lol... Lynn - I have heard countlesss songs in this style that have absolutely nothing on you lyrically... If music is your game then my theory is we Study something great than come up short ourselves and end up with pretty darn good

You know sometimes we have to look at the whole picture. A song could have the simplest lyrics or the most basic kind of content. All those great songs from the 50's are a perfect example... The best thing about them is the melody, singing and mood.. but you love the lyrics as do I.. because they fit the song so perfectly it seems. Many of those great songs could have worked with other lyrics many other lyrics anyone knows that,I hope, but somehow it clicks and you got magic.

I'm the first one to give credit to people for things that other people wouldn't even think of giving credit for... But we sometimes have to stop googling and drooling all over things because they are Hits or on TV....

I would bet my last penny that Wy has lyrics better than this.... he says he wishes he could only write like this.... Wy- there are 8 lines to this whole song they were all fine but don't put them on a cloud you can't reach. Don't sell yourself short buddy. It's good to be humble I'm humbled everyday and everytime I walk into my studio....
I have seen many fine lyrics on these boards that given the chance they will probably never have, would do just as well as this hit....

Okay I went over and took a listen to the song finally, never heard it before, very pretty. Not only must it have taken an hour to sought out all the lyrics. It took 15 minutes to lift the chorus melody form Bette Midlers blockbuster song
"Wind Beneath My Wings" Oh boy this big hit of Josh's is becoming a bigger disappointemnet by the minute. Shoot and I was counting on the music to be special....

Listen guys we can do this, they are not intimidating me
Below is part of Bruce Springsteens song "Thunder Road" thank God this guy is out of the mainstream competition now... This intimidates me And will humble yourself right back to your day job
----------------------------------------
Thunder Road

The screen door slams, Mary's dress waves
Like a vision she dances across the porch as the radio plays
Roy Orbison singing for the lonely
Hey, that's me and I want you only
Don't turn me home again, I just can't face myself alone again
Don't run back inside, darling, you know just what I'm here for
So you're scared and you're thinking that maybe we ain't that young anymore
Show a little faith, there's magic in the night
You ain't a beauty but, hey, you're alright
Oh, and that's alright with me

You can hide 'neath your covers and study your pain
Make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain
Waste your summer praying in vain
For a savior to rise from these streets
Well now, I ain't no hero, that's understood
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
With a chance to make it good somehow
Hey, what else can we do now?
Except roll down the window and let the wind blow back your hair
Well, the night's busting open, these two lanes will take us anywhere
We got one last chance to make it real
To trade in these wings on some wheels
Climb in back, heaven's waiting on down the tracks

Oh oh, come take my hand
We're riding out tonight to case the promised land
Oh oh oh oh, Thunder Road
Oh, Thunder Road, oh, Thunder Road
Lying out there like a killer in the sun
Hey, I know it's late, we can make it if we run
Oh oh oh oh, Thunder Road
Sit tight, take hold, Thunder Road

Well, I got this guitar and I learned how to make it talk
And my car's out back if you're ready to take that long walk
From your front porch to my front seat
The door's open but the ride ain't free

Hi Mike, Lynn... I see Remembering popped up on mp3....and
will answer there and here.....

On Josh Groban and others and simple to the point lyrics....
You Raise Me Up.. did so well....!!!.. and....does surprise me that there aren't other verses... I like what's there very much, but am surprised there wasn't more.

One thing, though, I think has to be kept in mind.....He is Josh Groban....that does (fair or unfair) make a difference..

I also agree some of the simple beautiful...to the point..lyrics and songs of yesteryear...are beautiful...But to get in a door...as songwriters...today....we have to step up to the challenge....of stronger, fresh lyrics...., I don't see this needing to be written as a current country lyric either...NOR would I want it to be...It's not that style.., I totally agree, Mike.

Here's another list of Josh Groban lyrics.

http://music.yahoo.com/Josh-Groban/Home-To-Stay/lyrics/2004701

Unlike, You Raise Me Up.....these are more what I'd expect him
and others in this style to sing......

and Lynn, good point...It was locked in tight as a melody....
and you did nail the feel of the words and stresses perfectly..
and kept the interlude....just as I would have done....
You're just so much quicker....

Mike, your creative license..and Lynn, your candy shop comments tickled me... It's all Trenton's fault. (We bought him a new
dog bed last night...poor thing slides off it... )

Hugs...and Thanks to you both......
Kaley

P.S....Holler any time!!!!....I'll be back and forth between my Mom's home...and ours....along with working on the CD and pitching.

Piano Melodies and Demos:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=8404&content=music
Children Songs:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=6469&content=music
Wyman and Kaley's Andy & Friends CD
http://cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg

Hi Kaley and Mike,

Thanks for giving us the go ahead here. It sounds like you might be stopping in from time to time so to let you know we will probably be continuing this conversation on PM between Sub and I and will always copy you. BIG question here:

Would the song fare better to move the structure from:

verse bridge verse interlude verse

To:

verse verse bridge interlude verse ??

I say this only because the bridge comes quickly and do we want the listener to wait for it just a little longer? I'd like all opinions here. Something to ponder. I'll go with what you two prefer, but I thought I'd raise the question.

Best,
Lynn
Upon further thinking, maybe not since the musical interlude acts as a lyrically silent 2nd bridge if you will. Thoughts???

Oh my gosh Mike, your right. There are technically only 8 lines in that Josh Grobin lyric that are different from the rest. (and yet it works!!!) I'll have to go and listen to that song. I also think there is a modulation in it and that makes it less redundant. I personally like modulations in certain songs because it gives that build/drama element.

Hi Lynn & Kaley

Quickly on the Grobin song, of course it works first like Kaley said "It's "Josh Grobin"

Secondly - The hook is "Wind Beneath My Wings" I picked that up in half a listen and in 30 seconds,so if yours chorus sounds like another hits songs chorus that often works out well... even better when your established.

I am a pop song jukebox I can recognize the slightlest similarities in songs from songs decades apart. It is a big part of the reason i don't write so many songs.
When I do actaully finish one it is usully because I eased up on myself and let that go.
What happens is I start writing something, Then I start to realize that it sounds like something else. People make careers out of doing that in a very creative smart way.
So I drop the whole thing...... Then I go turn on the TV and there is somebody
making a career and a success out of doing exactly what I just didn't do.
So now I do my best to let that go, and realize how silly I was being
It seems everything's been done and everything's a re-make...

Back to "Remembering"

The song has what I call the prechorus/chorus issue going on.

When songs have a verse than all of a sudden they go into a change .. a slight lift
it usually means it's pre-chorus going into the chorus... so it's short and then wham...
Sometimes it goes from verse styraight ibto a powerful chorus...

Some will have that build up/alternate melody going into there chorus and still call it part of there first verse...
I feel as soon as you make a serious change in your verse's melodies or chords you have a pre-chorus happening... but many times they can be refered to as the same thing just simply (the firstt verse)
javascript:%20x()
Okay I know I'm all over the place but you will see where I'm going I hope lol...

This song does not have what I call a legitimate chorus
The biggest hook in the song come at the middle end of the verses.... and then again at the end of the bridge.. where is the chorus?
This song has the formatt of hook at the end of of verses...

That's okay not all songs have to have a legitamite chorus just like all songs don't have to have a legit bridge... they often use... stops, or breakdowns or mainley solos to replace the bridge... every song has different needs.

So Lynn the formatt should be verse verse bride verse

But in this case something about placing this bridge in the middle where you have it
is unique and appealing to me... so I'm stuck there right now. not sure!

Hi again

We might as well look at something interesting so we can see the connections I'm talking about as far as arrangements.

Here is the BIG hit "After The Lovin" by Englebert

So I sing you to sleep
After the lovin'
With a song I just wrote yesterday
And I hope you can hear
What the words and the music have to say.

It's so hard to explain
Everything that I'm feelin'
Face to face I just seem to go dry.
But I love you so much
That the sound of your voice can get me high.

Thanks for takin' me
On a one way trip to the sun.
And thanks for turnin' me
Into someone.

So I sing you to sleep
After the lovin'
I brush back the hair from your eyes.
And the love on your face
Is so real that it makes me want to cry.

And I know that my song
Isn't sayin' anything new.
Oh, but after the lovin'
I'm still in love with you.

So I sing you to sleep
After the lovin'
I brush back the hair from your eyes.
And the love on your face
Is so real that it makes me want to cry.

And I know that my song
Isn't sayin' anything new.
Oh, but after the lovin'
I'm still in love with you.

Yes, after the lovin'
I'm still in love with you.

Hmmm, after the lovin'
I'm still in love with you.

This song reminds me a little of what we have happening



The section where he sings - "Thanks for taking me on a one way trip to the
sun"

Sounds and feels like a bridge to me not a chorus.. heck it never gets repeated in the whole song so how is it the chorus?
The After The Lovin hook line is the thing repeated through out the song...
And that great melody hook and lyric of
"And I know That my song isn't saying anything new"

Lynn that's the hook you have at the end of your verses, same effect.

Maybe we need to have the lyric be the same at the end of every verse section.. instead of the minor switches...

I know that Englebert song well as I grew up on my mom playing his album among others frequently. I really liked his "Two Different Worlds" song too. In fact Sub, in parts of "Remembering" I hear some Englebert in your voice at certain spots, honest. I hear at the 7th and 8th line of first verse the strongest and a several other spots as well, no kidding!!!

Anyway, what's curious is the printed Englebert lyric. If this was a songwriting course and we had to label the parts it would be one where there may be varying points of view w/the teacher having the final word of course. I would guess it might read like this (and I could be very wrong)

So I sing you to sleep CHORUS
After the lovin'
With a song I just wrote yesterday
And I hope you can hear
What the words and the music have to say.

It's so hard to explain VERSE
Everything that I'm feelin'
Face to face I just seem to go dry.
But I love you so much
That the sound of your voice can get me high.

Thanks for takin' me BRIDGE?
On a one way trip to the sun.
And thanks for turnin' me
Into someone.

So I sing you to sleep CHORUS
After the lovin'
I brush back the hair from your eyes.
And the love on your face
Is so real that it makes me want to cry.

And I know that my song VERSE
Isn't sayin' anything new.
Oh, but after the lovin'
I'm still in love with you.

So I sing you to sleep CHORUS
After the lovin'
I brush back the hair from your eyes.
And the love on your face
Is so real that it makes me want to cry.

And I know that my song REPEATED VERSE
Isn't sayin' anything new.
Oh, but after the lovin'
I'm still in love with you.

Yes, after the lovin'
I'm still in love with you.

Hmmm, after the lovin'


A curious format. Doesn't fit the cookie cutter types. BUT it doesn't matter. It all works and works well! I know there are exceptions to the rules and format wise this must be one of those exceptions and yet it is exceptionally good.

If we take Kaley's melody and consider changing the format the only problem I see is I'm not sure the melody of the bridge will feed in to the musical interlude as well as the verse melody presently feeds into the musical interlude. The other thought is to consider doing away with the musical interlude and repeat the bridge at that spot. These are of course just ideas and Kaley would have to definitely weigh in for that would be a big change. I am just thinking of what makes this song come off the best. Perhaps it is the original format afterall. I do believe we will have to sloooow down the song a bit. Just some thoughts there.

I am now going to move over to private messaging because we are at the point where we are going to be back and forth w/ideas/edits/etc and I don't want to tie up this board.

Best,
Lynn

Hi Lynn

Ah yes! you bet I used this song to inspire some of the vocal on "Remembering"
Also loved.... "A Man Without Love" "I Had The Last Waltz With You" "Please Release Me"

Great layout Lynn... Notice how the chorus (because we know the song) is the same melody as the verse?
So the only thing making that the Chorus is the lyric repeated
"So I sing you sleep
After the Lovin

The way it reminds me of "Remembering" also is if you look at this section...

So I sing you to sleep CHORUS
After the lovin'
I brush back the hair from your eyes.
And the love on your face
Is so real that it makes me want to cry.

And I know that my song VERSE
Isn't sayin' anything new.
Oh, but after the lovin'
I'm still in love with you.

This change in melody and building hook makes it seem like It was Verse Chorus instead of chorus verse.....

This is what remembering does... it make it seem like one big part... we have that first verse going into a lifting hook... That's when the singing starts getting stronger as well of course... And yes that musical section has to be cut down big time in a vocal version of this song, no doubt. I would say pull it but it may be a great assest once orchestrated and i would do just that... cellos' strings harps the whole 9 yards..

Okay - If you like we can start using the PM board to go back and forth.. although we are only tieing up our own thread

Also it could be very helpful to others if they were interested in seeing something develop that combines . lyrics, melodies, performance, arrangements,production. There's alot more to learn and teach each other...
By by the vibe of this thread I don't think that's the case, I think were alone anyway

See ya on The PM

I vote for public, if you're willing!

Keep in mind those who aren't interested will just skip it, but there are a lot of us who love to observe and learn from the process. I've done this on a few of mine on the lyric board, just wrote and re-wrote in public, and talked about what I was thinking. A few others got involved and helped, but judging by the hitcount, there are a LOT of others who just lurked and kept reading the thread.

So if you're comfortable with it, please let us in on the fun!

-Lyle

It's perfect, lyrically. Wow!! That is so good. Best of luck, guys. I know it will knock some artist's socks off.

Hi Tricia,

"Lyrically perfect", our work is done here! Thanks Tricia but seriously we are going to see if there's any areas we can improve on but we're glad you felt satisfied. Can you also picture this being sung by a female artist as well? Just trying to get perspectives. Thank you.

Best,
Lynn

Dear Lynn and Mike

I know I'm going to be the thorn here..and folks aren't going to be happy with me.......but this is how I feel.

I've read and re-read through the thoughts on changing up the melody structure....today, and I took it to the piano with the suggested verse, verse bridge, interlude, verse...and thought it lost its strength, it's connectedness....and most important its sweetness. It broke the flow of the melody line.

and I guess I'm also going to go against the grain on the lyrics, I still feel they need to be a lot stronger, regardless of what any current star sings. I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I don't have that kind of clout.

I would have never done this a year ago...I would have just kept quiet and Sulked,....but since this was brought up both openly on the public forum...and privately on p.m.'s..I thought "my" thoughts on the matter should "also" be stated both openly on the public forum and privately on the p.m.

best..and hugs,
Kaley .....

Piano Melodies and Demos:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=8404&content=music
Children Songs:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=6469&content=music
Wyman and Kaley's Andy & Friends CD
http://cdbaby.com/cd/kwwg

Dear folks one and all...

I have watched this process on both forums and while I do NOT want to curb anyone's enthusiasm or creativity....what I am seeing seems as though it is heading down a slippery slope. We creative types are often inspired by someone else's material..whether we are lyricists or composers. I don't want to come off sounding critical here...merely bringing up what seems to be an etiquette issue...and quite possibly a copyright one that needs to be dealt with openly on these forums.

When someone posts a lyric...or a musical composition on here...that immediately becomes a copyrighted work. IMO, it is therefore a matter of some significant importance that no one take liberties to write either a lyric or music to someone else's material without EXPRESS approval from the person who originally posted it. This has happened to several of us here over the years and in some cases it has brought along a lot of hard feelings and trauma on both sides of the fence.

I know this has happened to Kaley in the past...and it has certainly happened to me. What happens when someone writes something and then posts it openly is that it puts the original writer in the position of having to come off as hard nosed if they DON'T care for the other people's product. Things like this really need to be dealt with off the board to prevent at least SOME of this from happening.

For example..in one case someone had asked if I minded if he try putting music to one of my lyrics...no expectations involved. However...what actually transpired was that this individual posted his composition without my approval and permission and then proceeded to take on the task of (also without my permission nor involvement) rewrite my lyric to fit his music. That is simply unacceptable. But I ended up having to be the one to call a halt to that process.

In this case...it seems as though both Lynn and Sub have only the best of intentions...but from the comments posted, seem to be leaving Kaley out of the process at this point, which is not (at least in my opinion) ethical and may well be illegal. I know Kaley well enough to know that she hates to have to tell people anything negative...even when she thinks or feels it...so by posting this openly and working on it to your satisfaction without her involvement...I can only imagine how it makes her feel.

The fact that both of you have expressed an uneasy sense about the way this transpired speaks volumes. When things get to this point...you really DO need to take it off line and work directly with the composer to HER satisfaction. I think any of us would expect the same consideration.

As a lyricist...I also feel compelled to say that for me...the lyrics do not have enough meat, not enough substance. They seem to be stating the same thing over and over again in just slightly different ways. Sub's vocals are indeed lovely...but they would be moreso with stronger lyrics.

In all respect for everyone involved...I apologize if I have stepped on anyone's toes...but this is family here..and we need to be able to express our concerns as well as our kudos.

Hugs and Holiday Blessings,
Bobbie

Hi Bobbie,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, honest! You are correct. I actually did write lyrics and then I asked Kaley if she would be interested in reading them w/no obligation, that they were "a labor of love". She replied she would review them. I probably should have privately asked her if I could attempt to write lyrics, gotten her permission then wrote them. In the future I will do it that way and ask Kaley if I hear a melody that moves me. I had asked Sub to review the lyrics merely as a friend because I know from reading Sub's posts over a period of time now that while he likes different forms of contemporary music, I believe he and I are suckers for that classic, subtle, timeless kind of music/lyrics. I certainly am. Knowing his love for that kind of music, I asked him his opinion of how matched my lyrics were for the melody, nothing more. He decided to sing it on his own (and may I say did quite well). He then wrote Kaley and explicitly said "think of it as a Christmas gift you can return or exchange". Kaley did like it but was uncertain about the lyrics which are still up for discussion. I also told Kaley that if she wants to keep this "lyricless" or use someone else's lyrics, I am perfectly fine w/that decision. I already have been blessed to have a beautiful collaboration with her on "Gethsemane".

I am not offended that you feel the lyrics don't have enough "meat". They are in fact very simple and non-specific and don't offer anything "new". However, I personally believe that lyrics of this sort seem to fare well in a melody and genre of this type. Perhaps it is my preference when it comes to this type of melody/genre but there are other JPF members who have commented quite favorably. Someone called the lyrics "perfect" someone else said they would bet their paycheck this would be a "hit". So what we are seeing are differences of opinions, preferences, likes, dislikes, and this is to be expected and welcomed.

As far as leaving Kaley "out of the process" that is incorrect. Kaley is busy working on recording a children's CD and wrote to Sub and I to continue working on this. I believe that conversation is over on the MP3 board or on a private email. I also mentioned that whatever Sub and I discussed would be copied to her on private email so she was totally aware of every thing that transpired and that her thoughts/opinions would be welcomed and expected and more so because it was her melody. That's how it went down.

Glad to be part of this family and I appreciate you speaking your mind Bobbie. I remember writing to you privately when I first joined this board to ask certain questions because you seemed like such a likeable and approachable person. You still are and I admire that about you. Thanks so much!

Best,
Lynn

Hi Kaley,

I sent you a private email about what you discussed above for clarification.

Best,
Lynn

This a beautiful melody...and to listen to Mike sing it...
it's seems at first to be a beautiful song
BUT... as others have said... the lyrics need some work
as they'e said... there is a lot of repetition here...so much so...that I thought at first that the third verse was just a repeat of the first....until I went back and read along...
vauge is one thing..... but there needs to be a little more than this
Also..there a re some rhymes that I was expecting that really struck me by their absense...
take for example the first verse....
the way the music is phrased....I expected to hear a rhyme for REMEMBERING (3rd line) but instead the end of the 6th line was KNOWS
that jarred me a bit...

The other thing that hit me... it didn't seem like you matched the structure of the music with the format of your lyric as well as you could.
Rather than a chorus.... this song really just has a bridge...(or two) and thus...the verses need to be set up for that... with a repeat of the hook/title placed on the musical hook...(oftentimes one of the last two lines) (you know... a refrain?) Doing that would add some firmness to the structure...

there is a lot of potential here... but IMO still needs a lot of work

Hi Harriet,

Thanks for stopping by and giving a read and listen. Kaley knows how to write lovely melodies, doesn't she. I agree this needs work and we are in fact working off line on this. I agree there is some repeating in this and some of that may change. However keep in mind that some songs, even "hits" do quite of job of repeating themselves. Here are two samples below.

You Raise Me Up (Josh Grobin)

When I am down and, oh my soul, so weary;
When troubles come and my heart burdened be;
Then, I am still and wait here in the silence,
Until you come and sit awhile with me.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up: To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up: To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up: To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up: To more than I can be.
You raise me up: To more then I can be.

AND

Love Me Tender (Elvis, Frank and others)

Love me tender, love me sweet, never let me go,
You have made my life complete and I love you so.
Love me tender, love me true, all my dreams fulfilled,
For my darling, I love you and I always will.

Love me tender, love me long, take me to your heart.
For it's there that I belong and we'll never part.
Love me tender, love me sweet, all my dreams fulfilled,
For my darling, I love you and I always will.

Love me tender, love me dear, tell me you are mine,
I'll be yours through all the years till the end of time.
Love me tender, love me sweet, all my dreams fulfilled,
For my darling, I love you and I always will.

So even repetition isn't always a bad thing. Also so much depends on the melody, music and how the vocalist delivers or presents the song and it's overall feel. Thanks Harriet.

Best,
Lynn

Hi Lynn,

Actually, Josh Groban did not write the song YOU LIFT ME UP...he merely covered a song with lyrics written by Ireland's Brendan Graham - and put to music by Norwegian musician, Rolf Lovland. It was originally recorded by Lovland's New Age band "Secret Garden" on the "Once in a Red Moon" album, released in 2001. The original vocals were by Irish singer Brian Kennedy. My only point in bringing this up is to show that the original song (below) has more than one verse. I don't know what Groban actually put on his release...but he is such a mega-star that he can pretty much sing the phone book if he chooses to. That is pretty much the same with artists like Elvis and Frank. They could get away with things we can't hope to unless we achieve that same stature in the industry. Our songs HAVE to be better than just acceptable.

While some of the classic songs are still near and dear to all of us...it is really tough to write a simple song these days that actually says something. Even film and tv songs, while needing to leave out too many specifics...still have to have some meat on the bones or furniture in the room. I work with the film industry (Director of Development for FilmNashville www.filmnashville.org ). I definitely do NOT pretend to have all the answers or any clout in that regard...but I do listen a lot. I sat in on the screening for the film AUGUST RUSH this past June when they were making decisions regarding what music to use in the film. Very revealing process.

Hugs,
Bobbie

Actual Song Lyrics - YOU RAISE ME UP

When I am down and, oh my soul, so weary;
When troubles come and my heart burdened be; (is this Yodaspeak or what? LOL)
Then I am still and wait here in the silence,
Until you come and sit awhile with me.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... to more than I can be.

Instrumental Bridge

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... to more than I can be.

There is no life - no life without its hunger;
Each restless heart beats so imperfectly;
But when you come and I am filled with wonder,
Sometimes I think I glimpse eternity.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
And I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... to more than I can be.
You raise me up... to more than I can be.


* Song lyrics by Ireland's Brendan Graham - Music by Norwegian musician Rolf
Lovland
* Originally recorded by Lovland's New Age band "Secret Garden" on the "Once
in a Red Moon" album, released in 2001
* The original vocals were done by Irish singer Brian Kennedy
* A version by Irish singer Daniel O'Donnell was a #22 hit throughout Ireland
and the UK
* The best known version was performed by Josh Groban, (born Joshua Winslow
Groban on February 27, 1981, in Los Angeles, California)
* The song was #1 on the Adult Contemporary charts for six weeks in 2004 and
was nominated for a Grammy award
* A 2004 version by the Christian group Selah went to #1 on the Billboard
Christian Chart
* In 2005 the Irish pop band Westlife remade the song (it was credited as the
100th official cover of the song), and took it to #1 on the UK pop charts
* The inspirational nature of the song has made it an international hit many
times over, having been recorded in at least 20 different languages
* A great first dance or parent dance song at weddings, it is also extremely
popular around St. Patrick's Day, as the melody is a variation of the Irish
classic "Danny Boy"

Hi Bobbie,

Actually I never said Josh Grobin wrote the song "You Raise Me Up". I was using the song (a hit) as an example of a song that had repetition in it. I gave Harriet an example of an older song and a contemporary song w/a repetitious lyric. You are correct that these "mega" stars have/had stature in the community. I do not have name recognition or clout and probably never will and I am not a performer/singer. This is about the song. I am simply a songwriter who has teamed up w/others to hopefully turn out a song that an artist (be they Indie or well known) might be interested in singing. Elvis Frank and Josh will be remembered, revered and so will the songs they sang. But someone, somewhere, somehow had to write the song to begin with. I am sorry I don't agree with you that "our songs have to be better than just acceptable". Should they be, YES!! But if you listen to the radio (and I do) I hear lyrics and even music that I consider mediocre or just plain bad and yet they get airplay. I hear some really good stuff here on JPF and wonder why it's not the radio. Life isn't fair, but that's okay, I still love songwriting. Do I want to write better than acceptable? Of course. We all should strive to write well. That's why Kaley Sub and I are calling "Remembering" a work in progress.

Best,
Lynn

Thanks Harriet- for all the kind words and suggestions.
We are trying to figure out a few things to do. This style makes it a tough kind of
area to come from.

Thanks Bobbie - especially for the moral support, it's very very hard to comunicate
over emails & PM's when collaborating. We all know each other pretty well and have done work together in some way or another. I have done demos for Kaley and Lynn has collabotared on songs with her.
I may be the only one who has been in a Rock Band or bands many many years lol..
and is very used to a little chaos and mis-communications. Even fistf ights lol...

Lynn summed it all up perfectly........

Were all good... everything's cool

Oh also the film/TV thing is very different and not easy like you were saying.
I have some songs in movies/films.
I have a cool thread I wrote about it on the songwriters board called
"The Art Of Writing Vague. writing for Films TV etc.."

The thing about some of my material is if it were a young band or artist doing it
it would be mainstream commercial material with absolute hit potential.
Problem is no bands do songwriters songs in Rock Or Rock/Pop music neither do singer/songwriters of course.
So that is why I wrote the article, so people who write like that can find some slim hope