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Spider on the web
By Jim Merrilees Jan 2008


All day long he lurks there
Looking at the screen
He’s an internet predator
Well you know what I mean.
His speciality is grooming
Though he seldom washes his face
He grooms the pretty girls and boys
And tries to leave no trace.

Chorus
He’s an internet spider
On the World Wide Web.
Come into my parlour
It’s time that I was fed.

He casts his net far and wide
He knows just what to catch
He’s looking for a girl or boy
That he can easily snatch
He calls himself little Ben
And he’s on his dad’s PC
But the truth of the matter is
He’s nearly sixty three.

Repeat Chorus

Chat rooms are his hunting ground
And he knows what to say
Would any little boy or girl
Like to come and play.
I have games that’ll make you laugh
And a puppy dog or two
Well if you pet my puppy
Then maybe I’ll pet you.

Chorus

Well little Ben’s days are numbered
We’ve caught up with him you see
Cause my name is little Bill
And I am forty three
He made a big mistake grooming me
The trickery was mine
This predator is going to jail
For a very long time.


Chorus.

Well all you parents out there
A message just for you.
Look out for your children
Keep an eye on what they do
The web is great for learning
And it can be great fun.
Just watch out for you daughter
And your little son.

Final Chorus

Beware of internet spiders
On the World Wide Web
Don’t let kids into their parlour
Stop these spiders being fed.


_________________________

Okay, here's the deal for anyone who wishes to participate. We have two sets of lyrics that we will talk through the thought process for creating a melody. The previous post has a Lyric by Big Jim Merrilees, and in this post is a poem by Eugene Field that was suggested by Sam Harris. I see these as two entirely different kinds of lyrics so we will approach both of them a little differently. I think we could work on them simultaneously so I will try to comment on one and then the other throughout in each of my posts, and I encourage others who participate to do the same.

BTW Jack or anybody participating please feel free to amend or edit any of my lyrics as necess its no big deal. Looking forward to this exercise. I think a lot can be learned from it. I hope lots participate.

Here are my initial ideas after reading through both lyrics:

1. Spider On The Web

First, I have listened to a few of Jim's Soundclick recordings and understand where he is coming from musically, classic blues tinged rock. That works out well because the lyrics have a dark forboding that comes to mind since it is about a predator. I will use that as the inspiration for where I will begin.

He does have verses and a chorus and they are different from each other which is good. I happen to love melody so I look for ways use it, but because of the subject and style that Jim tends toward I hear more of a riff based tune than a purely melodic song. I also sense a need for a minor key, either based on a minor scale or with a minor chord featured prominently in the verse. Jim's voice could give an ominous growl and that is how I would start the song in a soft tone at first, and build up to the chorus.

It is not my intention to focus on the lyrics too much, but I do see couple of issues that I would want to work out. I happen to like my verses to follow fairly closely in the phrasing, especially the first line of each verse.

(V1) All day long he lurks there
Looking at the screen
He’s an internet predator
Well you know what I mean.

I would do a couple of things:
a.) I would tone down the alliteration a touch by
replacing "looking" with "staring"
b.) the two, three syllable words (internet predator) are
a little bit of a tongue twister at the end of a line and
it is much easier melodically to make it flow with single
syllables so I would consider rewording to something like:

your line - He's an internet predator
my line - A predator on the world wide web

This allows me more flexibility for smoothly spacing out
out a descending walk down with the words "world wide web."
You could space out the syllables in pre - da - tor in
the same way but after saying internet, then predator it
becomes a little bit of a tongue twister. Okay so the
first verse that I hear is:

All day long he lurks there
Staring at his screen
A predator on the world wide web
well you know what I mean

I will use the intervals to identify the notes I hear.

--3---5----6/5----5-----3------2/1
all - day - long - he - lurks - there

----2/1----3----1------1
Staring - at - the - screen

1-----3-5-5-----3-----5------6------5------3
A - predator - on - the - world - wide - web

-2----1----3----2-----1--2
well you know what I mean

We are rising ang falling back in each line, but on the fourth line we ascend a step at the last note. This ascension causes some anticipation for the second part of the first verse. So far we have not had any large interval leaps, but we are building and want to create tension. By the way,I would probably replace the line "well you know what I mean" with something more specific, it is really a toss-away line used way to much in song lyrics, but I don't want to get into that too much unless it will affect the way we work out a melody, so it stays as is.

Well, I am too tired to comment on the other lyric right now, so I will hold here for now and await input from others. I will hopefully also offer more insight into why I chose this beginning, so far. I hope the numbers make sense, if you know the intervals. Without specific notes the intervals work as is for a major or minor key so far.

Well, this may fall into the *other* exercise as well as this one. Big Jim, thanks, first. You triggered something. I did hear music when I read your lyrics, but they kind of morphed into something else (see?). And then, of course, the music turned out a little different to fit the lyrics. It became bluegrass instead of rock 'n' roll. (But everything I do comes out country, anyway.)

So here's my FWIW entry. It's got a little bit different focus--I "told" the "story" from the viewpoint of the *predator*. (I should offer the disclaimer that I do *not* do this kind of surfing in my spare time. Really.)

Here 'tis. And again, thanks.

Joe

[4/4, brightly]

LITTLE BEN, THE INTERNET SPIDER
--J. Wrabek

1.
Been (4)waitin’ here since school let out
(1)Wond’rin’ what I’d see,
You’re too (5)young to have a boyfriend
But you’re (1)not too young for me;
I got (4)better things for you to do
Than (1)bein’ bored alone—
Why (5)don’t you come and play with me
And never go back (1)home?

CHORUS:
I’m Little Ben the spider
And I’ve got a World Wide Web,
I’m after little boys and girls
For fun companionship;
I’ll teach ‘em about sex and drugs
And things that they’ll regret
And how their parents let me find them
‘Cause we’re on the Internet.

2.
There’s a hundred chatrooms on the Web
And I’m in every one
Waitin’ for some little kid
That’s out to have some fun;
I tell the truth: I’m Little Ben
At home on my P.C.;
I don’t mention that I’m bald and thin
And nearly sixty-three.

CHORUS:
I’m Little Ben the spider
And I’ve got a World Wide Web,
I’m after little boys and girls
For fun companionship;
I’ll teach ‘em about sex and drugs
And things that they’ll regret
And how their parents let me find them
‘Cause we’re on the Internet.

3.
Shoulda known my days were numbered
And they’d finally make me stop;
Last little girl who visited
Was a six-foot-seven cop;
They say I won’t get out of jail
Till twenty fifty-three
But if they let me keep my cell phone
You can instant-message me.

CHORUS:
I’m Little Ben the spider
And I’ve got a World Wide Web,
I’m after little boys and girls
For fun companionship;
I’ll teach ‘em about sex and drugs
And things that they’ll regret
And how their parents let me find them
‘Cause we’re on the Internet.

BRIDGE:
Surfin’ the Web is lots of fun
But watch out where you sail
Take this tip from Little Ben
In the Clatsop County Jail—
Disconnect your computer
And turn off your MTV
And spend some time with your children
‘Fore they spend some time with me.

CHORUS:
I’m Little Ben the spider
And I’ve got a World Wide Web,
I’m after little boys and girls
For fun companionship;
I’ll teach ‘em about sex and drugs
And things that they’ll regret
And how their parents let me find them
‘Cause we’re on the Internet.

TAG:
Yes, your parents let me find you
‘Cause we’re on the Internet.

My head's about to explode.

This is an excellent thread. I want to hang back a bit so we don't get too confused by several approaches all at once. Watching Jack's thought process and approach is something people pay a lot of money to experience, so I'm just going to watch this version finish and count myself lucky, for now.

Really love how you note the melody with simple numbers based on the root note (1). I've never seen that...so bloody simple, I love it.

Hmmp. No feedback, huh? I'll have to go try this out on a couple of people (since I can't get the tune out of my head), then maybe play it for a live audience tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.

Joe

I've just been hanging back, wondering what would happen next...isn't your song actually Big Jim's song, just taken further along the road?

Yes. What I didn't know--and can't tell without input--is whether it was a good further-down-the-road to go, or whether I should just be quiet. I am a compulsive editor (used to do that for a living, too), but sometimes the "compulsive" part means I should be locked away where I can't do further damage.

Joe

Actually, I think it's great...but it ran ahead of the group exercise and jumped over the learning together part, and you now have a co-written song. It's like the subject of a new thread (with neverending potential )...

I'd like to watch Jack's process continue still. We may end up with a lot of songs, only the same one.

I think Joe has maybe missed out on the point of the exercise. It is not so much a lyric rewrite as an exercise in putting lyrics to music. My song Spider on the web was to be one of the lyrics used to show the processess involved in setting down music to given lyrics. Jack was then going to show this process and we all were going to provide help and imput.But what the hey maybe Joe can post his new lyrics with music as well.

Can we ask questions? Or is Jack going to explain?

What I'm wondering about is exactly how you chose this beginning. Did you sit down at the keyboard and play around with different combinations of notes for awhile and then choose the
--3---5----6/5----5-----3------2/1
all - day - long - he - lurks - there etc...?

(I'm assuming the 3 = E, 5 = G etc. no?) I get it if it is. As far as Joe's rewrite, I don't understand how the numbers work there. It's a neat little rewrite though!

Kristi

Kristi, Jack's numbers do mean what you said, but only if you're playing in the key of C...that way, C is the root and = 1. But if you play it in E, then E = 1. It all depends on what key you choose to play it in, but the name of the key = 1.

Joe's numbers referred to the chords he chose. If he was playing in A, then 1 = A, 4 = D and 5 = E.

Jack was referring to the notes of the melody, Joe was referring to the chords he was playing.

But, no, you can't ask questions.

Yes, Mark has it right. I will try to explain more about what I did so far, and will continue from there, but I need to do some shopping for groceries and such. Then I can continue with what I started.

Okay, while Jack is grocery shopping here's another non-question:

Joe has one chord for the entire line? Is he using a guitar and just strumming chords for each line? I don't get that.

Yes, key of C. I'm ready for the next part...

That's right, Kristi. He's strumming that chord behind his melody until the next number is shown. Like this would be a typical blues verse:

I (1) woke up this mornin' with an awful achin' head
I (4) woke up this mornin' with an (5)awful achin' (1)head
Kristi (5) won't stop with the questions
But we're still (4) glad she's on this (1) thread...

Alright, that's it. I'm leaving! :o Where are all the other girls anyway?

Okay, so the melody is hidden somewhere then. Okay. Ready for the next part...

Bring more girls! We don't want to be a boys club.

Kristi,

I have not played an instrument yet with this lyric. I simply read the words and let the sound of the words I hear internally influence the way I came to the melody, and I have not been very adventurous, so far. I often come up with a framework this way to the melody, and fine tune it later. I might introduce an unusual chord to the progression, but I will get to that when I discuss interval leaps.

Remember I said that I hear a riff based tune, so the melody will probably not be as adventurous as if it were a purely melodic piece. Think of it like comparing Somewhere over the Rainbow (Judy Garland) with Piece of My Heart (Janis Joplin). The former is a very melodic tune that allows a pure beautiful voice to soar, while the latter is a gritty blues/rock tune where the energy and power are more important than the pure melody. I will approach the Field poem with a very melodic thought process, but this tune as I see it is more about attitude and delivery.

Internal melody exists with everything we speak. When you say something there are natural rises and falls to the pitch. When you ask a question you most often end with the last word rising in pitch, whereas, an emphatic statement often starts with a higher note and drops in pitch. Try saying out loud as if you were speaking to someone else the phrase "this is it" as a question. Did it not have a rise in pitch on the last word? Now make it a statement of fact like you are answering a question, "this is it". More than likely you will emphasize the first word in a higher pitch resolving in a lower pitch with the remaining words. This is internal melody that we use all the time without even thinking about it.

It is part of how we express ourselves naturally and is also how we process the things others say to us. It is quite unnatural to speak entirely in a monotone. I simply listen to the words expressed, and think about how I would make the point, then let that movement up and down in pitch influence the melody I start constructing in my mind. I might exaggerate it sometimes, or intentionally introduce a large interval leap at some point because it adds an interesting element to the overall melody.

So what do I mean by a large interval leap? I might as well discuss this a little now since I have mentioned it, but will not get to right away in the song itself. I will define a large interval leap as a transition between two adjacent notes where the interval is greater than a third. Think about almost any tune and try to pick out the notes as they transition. I believe you will discover that most of the notes do not transition up or down more than a third. However, the melodies that get stuck in your head often have at least one point in it where there is a transition greater than a third. That interval leap tends to have a subconcious message that makes it stick out in your mind, thus the melody is more memorable. So I believe a good melody needs this to give it, not only a unique quality, but make it more memorable. We all want something that has a hook quality in our music, and this is one element that does this for me.

Y'all are right. And you should ignore what I posted as not really germane to the discussion, and listen (or "listen") to what Jack is doing, which is fascinating. I just had something come to mind that had to get out, and so it did. It probably got out in the wrong place (sorry), and I didn't want to be confusing.

In answer to the question whether *my* numbers were just chords, yes. Am I singing that note all the way through? Probably. Some of you haven't heard me sing. (Jack has.) I have a voice made for silent movies.

And isn't Melody a girl's name? If we say (or "say") real loud, "We're Discussing Melody Here!", is there a chance somebody might show up to find out what we're saying? (Oh, and "Harmony" is a girl's name, too.)

Joe

Hey Joe, I like what you did with the song. I knew you missed what we were getting at because we started this on another thread and decided to move it. When Jim posted his lyric he did not mention the previous discussion enough to inform you exactly what we were going to do.

Joe you contributions are valid and worthwhile. I just pointed out the main reason for this thread so you could understand the process better. Please keep posting with comments. This is educational and interesting and we all can learn a lot.

Jack thanks for what you have done so far. I look forward to the next installment.

Yeah this is great stuff. So was Joe's song! My kids think you're out of this world...we all know that already.

Joe,

Yeah, I think it's fascinating to watch different people at work, approaching a creative piece. It doesn't take much to confuse me, so no worries! I have much to learn and am looking forward to whatever is in store for us...

Sorry for the confusion. But I think something good could come from this. We now have Joe's new song spawned from my original lyrics. Lets let both run and see where they go. Nothing wrong with watching two folk work lyrics to make a tune. Not like a competition but an exercise to see the differences. Now that we are all on the same wavelength it should not be confusing.

Okay, I was going to try to do the two lyrics simultaneously, but I realized that the thought processes happen fast enough, but my ability to put my thoughts in words then share it here is not nearly so quick. So it will be easier to stay on one lyric at a time and I won't forget so much that I want to say between each post.

So, on to Part 2:

--3---5----6/5----5-----3------2/1
all - day - long - he - lurks - there

----2/1----3----1------1
Staring - at - the - screen

1-----3-5-5-----3-----5------6------5------3
A - predator - on - the - world - wide - web

-2----1----3---2---1--2
well you know what I mean

----------------------------------------------------

His specialty is grooming
Though he seldom washes his face
He grooms the pretty girls and boys
And tries to leave no trace.

-----------------------------------------------------

Notice on the last word of the first part I ended with a 2nd interval note. That happens to be a very frequent note used on a last note of a line to transition from a root chord to a fifth chord, or a minor 2nd. That means going into the second four lines we are coming out of a fifth chord (or minor 2nd), so we could choose to stay there or not. We might go back to the root to start the second four, or possibly go to the fourth chord, all common approaches.

Any of these choices are fairly conventional, we have heard thousands of songs do each of these changes. We could also use this point in the song to try a more unusual transition, but keep in mind that this is the second part of the first verse and whatever we do here we will probably repeat each verse. I personally prefer when I have eight lines to a verse to think of the first four as an A part of a verse and the second four as a B part so I don't want the A and B parts to sound the same.

I often try several different things here to see if I come up with something really interesting or sometimes I might decide that it is better to go on with one of the more conventional routes here because I am still building and want a big payoff later in the song. If you do something unusual here it sets a marker in the music, so the words should have a strong point to make. However, this lyric is still developing and we are not looking for a payoff yet, so maybe a more conventional route will probably be a better fit.

With all that in mind, I think we will build best by going to the fourth chord. I don't want it to sound like the first four so I don't want to go back to the root. I could stay in the fifth (or minor 2nd), but I personally want to hear a change here so I don't want to hang on it.

Damn, I just realized that I changed the third line and used a line from your chorus. That was probably a subconscious thing. I think the line should remain in the chorus so I would probably rethink the line I came up with for the first verse, but we won't backpedal right now.

I think I am going to hang this second four lines around the fourth chord key center as I build to the chorus.

-5-----6---5---6----6----5---3
His - spe-cial-ty - is - grooming

-3---------5-----6--5-----6----5-----5------3
Though - he - sel-dom - wash-es - his - face

5----6---------5----6----6----5-------3-----2/1
He - grooms - the - pret-ty - girls - and - boys

5-------6-----5-----6------6-----7/6/5
And - tries - to - leave - no - trace.

Okay, so here is my take so far. These four lines have the fourth chord resolving to the root at the end of each line until the last line which resolves to the fifth chord. In this case it would only be the fifth, the minor 2nd chord would not work as climax to the build before the big chorus.

So, what do you think so far? Remember that we are building a framework which may be expanded or revised later if we choose.

Thanks Jack. Q when you write music how do you choose the key? I have a problem with this aspect and usually end up having to transpose it to one I can properly sing the song in.

Great fun to watch, Jack. It would be so difficult for me to give a play-by-play of my own songwriting process(es)---too much of it is so very random, and probably all of it is a wordless endeavor. If someone were to ask me why I just changed the chord I was playing while I was writing, I think I would snap out of my trance and lose the song.

It's great to see how you do it. My process seems to involve a lot more stumbling and luck.

Obviously we all have our own voices and sometimes a song challenges one part of your range. I find some keys that I can sing well in for some songs, but it may be more challenging on other songs. It is the combination of notes that can be the problem, not the specific key, and another key allows you to get that combination of notes easier. There are some keys my voice fits in pretty naturally, and I do tend to gravitate to those keys. Most of the time when I write a tune, if I come up with the melody without having touched my instrument I may at random pick one of the keys I favor and not too surprisingly they are most often either D, E, G, A, or C, or their relative minors. The most frequent key I will grab to begin playing with a new melody is the key of D. It happens to be one of my favorites to sing in and there are marvelous guitar sounds on an acoustic that you can get out of the first position D and related chords. But I have to make myself be versatile so I might then try a few others to see how they go. I actually can sing in most keys depending on the style of song. I may be more limited if I have to hit certain notes with great power, or something like that. I might also pick a different key because of a particular guitar part I come up with works out well in a different chord form. Also, the style of song sometimes influences the key I choose, because the chord forms I would prefer to use.

I am rambling on here, but I don't have a simple answer for that Jim, it is often trial and error for me too. I have written many songs in the key of G, but then G is the people's key anyway. There are probably more songs written with guitar in hand in the key G than any other.

Mark, I have been writing songs a long time, and these things all go through my mind frequently as I write. I did study musical composition through my youth, and a year at college although I wound up changing majors. So the way I think is highly influenced by that early training. Much of what I do comes without having to formally go through this process, the thinking process happens quite fast. It is the putting it to print to share with you that takes me MUCH longer.

Jack,

That's really impressive. I understand your reasoning behind what you're saying. I like how you spell it all out...it makes sense! Kind of like Mark, I just listen and if it sounds good, I write it down. But I do see the importance of changing or not changing the sound for a better payoff later on...subtle, but makes a huge difference.

I think it's cool to have it kind of creep along...like a spider would do.

Can't wait to hear the next installment...

G is probably my most-used key.

I feel anyone can write and sing a song in any key...it's all a matter of how you set up your melody to fit within your range. However, I use certain keys more often simply due to the lazy habit of strumming open chords...a song falls out and there it is...another one in G.

Some keys feel different than others. It's a real feeling, too, because the pitches of notes are simply faster or slower vibrations. As a result, keys take on their own personalities that we begin to recognize and use. I remember Bob Dylan talking about chords...he said something about E being "confident"...I can't remember, but he had a different attribute for each chord. I think my favorite is B flat Major. It just shakes the air like nothing else.

Well Bb is an interesting key, because it happens to be the key of the universe. About two years ago scientists who have been studying background noise from deep space and have been running the sounds through all kinds of analysis announced that there is a resonance in the key of Bb that is found virtually everywhere in the universe. It is the sympathetic vibration the resonates on a very LARGE scale.

Figures. The universe is making me use a capo...

Joe

Hi All,

Kristi, you are not alone, I'm reading along too. It's good to have an inquiring mind. Thanks Jack for this educational experience. Not to deviate from what is happening here but if I may ask/say something here in reference to what Jack said above about "interval leaps". Would I be correct to say that a extreme example of that is in the song "Unchained Melody" that most of us are familiar with. Could we use the part where at the end of the song he sings (or rather belts out)

"I NEED your love" (the word "need" there is sung so extrememly high and sets it apart from the other words that it stands out in a very apparent way and yet it is wonderful???) Now during the rest of the song the word "need" is treated as usual but it's at the end where they throw in this surprise and it's I think part of what helps to make the song so memorable. Is that infact called the interval or does it go by another name???

Sorry to interrupt but I thought if you answered, both Kristi and I could be complete in our understanding. Thank you in advance.

Best,
Lynn

Yes, Lynn that is an excellent example of what I was talking about. Also in that song there is the most incredible descent near the end where the line is "godspeed your love.....to...me". The line begins on the 2 on "god-", drops to the root note on "-speed", steps down to the fifth in the octave below, then to the third in the lower octave on "love" then he leaps to a 2 back in the upper octave on the word "to" and extends the word to go 2-3-2-3-5--6, then 3-2-1 on "me". Wow, that song has it in spades! That melody is totally unforgetable!

Lynn, more directly to your question, the distance between two adjacent notes is an interval, and it is the practice to refer to a diatonic scale (think doe-ray-me-fa-so-la-tee-doe) with numbers to represent the notes in that scale so, doe would be a 1, ray would be 2, me would be a 3, etc. It is just a short-handed way of marking the place in the scale. If you start on any note, whether or not it is a 1 in the scale, you can temporarily think of it as a 1 to determine what the next note is in relation to it. So, for example in the key of C Major, the root note would be C (1), and D (2), E (3), F (4), G (5), A (6), B (7), and back to C which is the octave higher root note (1). Let's say you wanted to know the interval from E to G in this scale. Well the fact is the interval from E to G is the same regardless of scale you use. Simply assign 1 to the E and walk up the scale, F would be a 2 from the E and G would be a 3. Now using the C scale again note the the G is the 5 in the C scale but the interval between E and G is a 3 (or a third). Does that make sense to you? I hope so.

Edit- In actuality the E to G is a minor third, but that requires a little more explanation, For our purposes, numerically it is a 3.

Hi Lynn!
So glad to see you!

Jack,
That is amazing you can pick those numbers out of that line like that (godspeed your love). I hear it. I hear it.

I listened to Unchained Melody and it's all very clear. I also looked at the lyrics. What you're talking about is all part of the chorus too I believe, (the lyrics have a different structure) where I think you said is a good place for this sort of thing to happen.

Now check out all those amazing interval leaps in "Somewhere Over the Rainbow."

Excellent point Mark about "Somewhere" and Jack thanks for confirming the interval issue for me. Now......my wheels are spinning. Unchained and Somewhere Over the Rainbow, two great songs with intervals, coincidence, I think not!!!!! Let that be a lesson to all of us.

I notice in "Over the Rainbow" the first two notes are a whole octave apart. And only one other place in the song - on the word "find" (...where you'll find me) is a note higher than that higher octave note.

I'm wondering is it generally okay to write notes in a song beyond an octave or is that hard for singers? What's a good range for a singer to have?

I'll defer to the experts on that one Kristi (though I do remember reading that somewhere once but can't remember where that was, it might've even been on JPF) However, if you do write a song with those high notes, there are vocalists out there (both male and female) that can do it so don't let that be an obstacle. I love those high notes!

Kristi, Judy Garland was a *very* good singer. I don't think there are many people who could pull off that two octave range.

I consider myself the lowest common denominator for singing--in fact, I refuse to demean the term by calling what I do "singing." If I have two notes more'n an octave apart, I'm in trouble. The songs I write are written so I can sing them (since I may be the *only* person singing them)--accordingly, that means *anybody* can sing them.

In my necessarily limited repertoire of cover songs is one by Elvis Presley and one by Bing Crosby (at least, made famous by them). The songs just happen to have all their notes fall within my narrow range. Now, Elvis and Bing do those songs just great, and you don't notice they're singing within a narrow range--but the thing is, *I* can sing them, too.

The wider a range (so to speak) of singers you can accomodate, the more chances you'll have of somebody singing your song. My opinion, of course.

Joe

2-3 octaves seems to be about the average range for most singers but some folk can sing way outside these parameters. However it is all about quality not so much range. I can manage about 3.5 octaves at a push.

i heard that a very young Julie Andrews had a 4 octave range. I think a good singer needs to have at least 2 1/2 octaves. What does it take to do the National Anthem? (sorry Big Jim I mean the USA national anthem) Isn't that about 2 octaves and yet most singers have to be careful what key they are in to be sure they can hit all the notes without sounding like a dying bangee. Jordan Sparks did a great pre-super bowl version of it this afternoon- Wow it was great- with an arrangement I have never heard before- it had a timing signature that i could not figure out- does anyone know? Was it 5/4 time or something?

I started working on the chorus, but I am too tired right now, so I saved it into a notepad and will finish it and post tomorrow. Good night

Keep in mind that a good vocalist doesn't necessarily need a wide range...vocal pyrotechnics are impressive, sure, but it's only one of several ways to impress. Some of my favorite vocalists have a pretty narrow vocal range, but they interpret their songs like no one else. John Lee Hooker, Bob Dylan, Howlin' Wolf, Muddy Waters (lots of blues singers here), Johnny Cash.

To me, a vocalist with a wide range has an edge on the competition. But a vocalist known primarily for having a wide range? That's a lot like a hotshot lead guitarist--spectacular, yes, but heart and soul will always win out over spectacle.

Hey Mark There is an old saying "never mind the quality feel the width." Well when it comes to singing "never mind the width feel the quality."

internet spider, eh?