JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum America's Watershed Election.

Doctors barely have time to see all their patients because their desire to make money is greater than their desire to provide proper treatment. It's a conscious choice. Nobody is forcing doctors to accept more patients than they can handle. Doctors, to the same extent as people of any other profession in this country, are intoxicated by wealth and willing to settle for in return a neurotic perversion of the original American dream.

Health care in this country is better at maximizing profits than health. We sit in a waiting room for forty-five minutes, then wait in a sitting room for another fifteen, to spend five minutes with a doctor. We sign insurance forms upon entering, and step over pharmaceutical reps on the way out. We are prescribed drugs that produced side-effects that require treatment with other drugs. This is the stuff Ray Crock and Henry Ford had nightmares about.

All great nations rise to prominence, spread their philosophy/widen their domain, and are conquered by a nation rising anew. Egypt, Sumeria, Greece, Spain, Italy, Great Britain, and countless others, some of them many times over, have run the cycle. It's America's turn.
But empire, almost by definition accomplished through force, is designed to benefit the oppressor. The problem is nobody likes oppression. And in due time, the conquering nation gets fat and slow and is conquered itself, sometimes by the oppressed and with a vengeance.
Human beings are born, die, and along the way some of them kill people who don't share their beliefs. If you have to kill somebody to convince them you're trying to help them, chances are you really don't realize what you're doing.

I am perfectly willing to let others to live their lives as they wish, so long as my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is not adversely affected. But with so many people content to regurgitate what they've been force-fed by leaders interested only in securing political power, I find myself choking on a sea of puke. I'm tired of treading water. I'm ready to pull the plug.

I was going to ask you to promise not to go Postal on us, Richard...but then I remembered where you worked!

"Dying not long after writing that spared him the sorrow of watching such an America disappear." -Richard Stringfellow

Richard,

You seem oblivious to all the the US is doing today to help countries around the world, to entertain people with our cultural efforts in film, TV and music, to heal people with the work of our medical scientists and doctors in the field, to improvements in agricultural procedures and processes which have helped feed people in starving lands, and the generosity of business leaders and economic titans who are giving a huge amount of the money they earned to support aids in Africa and a myriad of other programs around the world. And then there's all the things these and others do for similar disadvantaged folks in our own country. And that doesn't even scratch the surface. Even our military has freed people in oppressed places continuously for decades. Because you disagree with some specific actions and situations hardly makes up for your lack of awareness of how much amazing effort and care the US citizens and the government we have elected has done and continues to do. Perhaps you're simply ignorant.. or perhaps your so deluded in your hatred for a particular political party and their leaders that you can't see the truth. After spending 2 months in Europe talking to regular folks I learned how much the US is actually still depended on to solve most of the important world problems. Having spent 10 years touring the US non stop, I've also learned of the generosity and efforts made by people from the lowest levels of our society to the top. Even the richest fat cats such as Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are giving away their money to help Africa and they've long been targets of those who would tear down the integrity of the US generosity and efforts to help others and protect the world from tyrants.

Frankly.. you're free to be wrong.. just as I am free to point out how wrong you really are. You're not even close.

Brian

Brian,

The sound you hear is applause! Not because I believe our country is perfect, but because most of the time we try do our best.

Don't be too hard on Richard Brian.

Perceptions and beliefs are created based on how you meet up with circumstance time and place. Remember the story of the blind men and the elephant.

So from Richard's POV, all he perceives may be perfectly valid because that is how he understands the world.

Others, with different experiences, can disagree, but you cannot flat out say he's wrong.

Misinformed, inexperienced, ..perhaps....but not "wrong". That only makes someone dig their heels and say..no I'm not.

But you've made a good case to inform...perhaps Richard can incorporate that into what he believes and temper his viewpoint.

BTW, Sinclair died 11 years after he wrote that...not "shortly thereafter".

Without a doubt America has given freely to the oppressed and the disadvantaged,and still does.We here in the UK have a lot to thank America for,especially for the support in the Second World War,and the "Marshall Plan",and the billions they lent the country for their war effort,(which incidentally was only paid back in full not more than a few of years ago).The dark side of the moon as far as America is concerned is the CIA...whether the citizens of the USA want it or not,they do police most countries in the world,and have a lot of fingers in a lot of pies.To be honest from a "over the pond" perspective,i think they pull the strings,and they have taken it upon themselves to decide who and whom they fancy as friend or foe,and they can be very fickle,,,E.G. in the not too distant past,they supplied and backed Saddam Hussein in the IRAQ/IRAN war...because of Ayatolla Khomenei...this gave Saddam feelings of grandeur,so he proceeded to bite his own arse,and the hand that fed him..which in turn led to his downfall...you see everything is in perspective..the CIA did not really care how Saddam ran Iraq at that time,and all his atrocities,...Iran was the big picture..and now it has turned 180 degree's...IRAN is now part of the big picture again,and the car crash that is Iraq is now left to America and to a part, the UK to sort out,and they can't move out ..why?..because IRAN is on the verge of being nuclear..it is a no-win situation..achilles heel hasn't got a look in...The real SAD thing in this whole situation in my opinion, is the other European Countries...Particularly the once mighty Germany,and in particular France,if ever a country owed a big vote of thanks to the American's and the British it is "The Froggies"...and they go out of their way to condemn Britain and in particular, America at every opportunity...and that mob were one of the first to raise the white flag when the 3rd Reich came calling,which in turn left us perilously close to invasion...perhaps i digress a little here, but sometimes history and politics,are joined at the hip...i still say this is America's watershed elections..and i stick by my forecast, Obama to be chosen, and to win by a country mile....

Terry,
How is things in the land of my ancesters? Probably been over 300 years since some of them sit in the House of Commons. Me thinks you give the CIA way too much credit. Probably true we have agents in a lot of places, I really don't know but probably pretty accurate. And it probably gets read the wrong way some times but that can happen anywhere in any situation.

The polls here do show most people are unhappy with the Iraq conflict but also know it may be the lessor of two evils. And while some of the "Canidates" may speak of bringing the troups home very quickly reality is a great equalizer.

Obama by a mile? Well I can't say for sure but there was an Astrology write up in a Astrology Magazine a while back that gave Hillary the nod. Could still happen. We don't even know who will be the democrat nominee yet.

Who are the Froggies?

Ray..hi Bud...the "FROGGIES" are the French..l'escargot.. they eat frog's legs..it is a delicacy.(or so they tell me)...The CIA ???
Ray with due respect, most of those in the top tiers of power in the USA do not have a handle on what they do..just to give you one tiny little instance of payback time...de-stabilising...that is what Iran is doing to Iraq ..payback to the CIA...but that is the times we live in....Forecast time..Obama..v..McCain...
Obama wins by the length of Broadway....but as far as world policy is concerned there will be no withdrawal of troops from Iraq by either USA OR UK...we could open an other can of worms and bring Israel into the equation but that is another story...

I have nothing against the people of America, and did not mean to suggest any criticism of them. I am aware, though not as well-informed as you seem to be, of their philanthropy. I am not aware of the beneficence you attach to our government. I see our government as wanting it all - all the resources, all the money, all the power - not to bequeath it to humanity, but to just have it for itself. It's the corruption and greed, varnished with a pretense of integrity, that causes me to come unglued.

I do not support military aggression, and hate the fact that our leaders are able to manipulate the populace so easily. I put it on par with raping a retarded girl.

I used to have no preconceptions regarding political party affiliation. But as I got older I noticed the people I found most unpleasant, more often than not, turned out to be Republicans. For the last fifteen or twenty years, Democrats have become more like Republicans. I see it as a sociological step backward.

Well Terry,
People go "frogging" here too. Maybe down in Lousiana. Them Cajuns will eat anything, I have heard.

The British did have a "Stiff upper lip" during the second world war. They was right. Quite a lot like President Bush, wouldn't you say. He is right too.

Gosh Richard,
The Government wanting it all? All the money? It was the Republicians that put thru the Tax cuts, It is the Rapublicians that say you should keep more of your money. The Democrats want to let the Bush Tax Cuts expire. They only want to Tax the Rich. Have you not been listening?
When you screw Big Business, Big Business screws little business. Guess who Little Business screws? Want to see those tax cuts expire?
Nobody wants war. This conflict will have to work itself out. It may be winding down soon. Lets hope.

I think Richard was right. :/

I kinda like seeing my name in bold type.

Lemmings parrot papa san
Until the cows come home
Papa san has buffaloed
The land the lemmings roam

Richard,

So now the American public are being equated with a retarded girl. I guess that's a bit offensive any way you spin it and from any view point. So, unless people agree 100% with you, they are not only wrong, but mentally retarded waiting to be raped by others. You're a real genius that's for sure.

The easiest way to see how hollow someone's argument is is when they start using extremist language like calling the US population a "retarded" girl and saying that our elected officials are raping us. Instead, how about you actually defend your ARGUMENT and explain how none of the things I mentioned was true, and show how the US no longer does good in the world. While you're at it, how about explaining, since according to you "I see our government as wanting it all - all the resources, all the money, all the power - not to bequeath it to humanity, but to just have it for itself," how it is that we're still paying record prices for oil when we have all that "free" oil we've apparently stolen from Iraq? How is it we're spending money there to rebuild it, but we don't own it all?

It's easy to use vitriolic language and statements when you have no real argument to make to support your side. If you want to argue specifics about the war in Iraq or about government corruption (on both sides of congress) there's plenty of specifics to argue. Calling the majority of US voters "retarded" is both immature and ignorant on it's own merit. How about explaining, with some example, how we support foreign lands less? Explain how we do less humanity work than we once did? Explain how the American people are less giving to others than we were at that time? Explain how the world is worse off with the US in the mix rather than better off?

I saw the horrors of what both the NAZI's and the Soviet Union did to people as recently as in the 90's in Europe. In some cases, they're still doing damage, by now supporting the strife in Kosovo and Serbia. They used forced suppression to enslave entire countries against their will. The took resources, manpower and robbed the potential of the countries they invaded. Do you equate the US with that? How about the regimes in Iran? In fact, if you don't want to talk about the truly oppressive regimes that ruin their citizens lives, how about point to the countries that do MORE and BETTER than the US in supporting others? If you can't easily rattle off the names with specific examples, then how can you condemn our way of life and goverment?

For someone in a government job, perhaps you have a chip on your shoulder concerning the way they do things. Isn't the USPS still controlled by the government? Does that explain your venom for both government and your fellow Americans?

And finally, since you see everyone else as Lemmings, does that mean you and you alone are the one with the knowledge, awareness and intelligence? Perhaps since you apparently know all and the rest of us are collectively a "raped retarded girl waiting for more," you should lead the country and protect us.

Brian

As far as I see it politics is just Us V Them. The haves and the have nots. The haves hold onto what they have got, want more and usually get it at the expense of the have nots. The have nots get screwed. Yes voters are half wits. They elect someone into power who is either in the palms of big business or trying to make changes with his hands tied behind his back. Big business and international financiers rule the world and there is nothing we can do about it. Freedom is a myth in reality it is only bestowed on those who have the powers and wealth to afford it.
Tax is a necessity and folks who want to pay less are hiding their heads in the sand.
Any system based on greed, hierarchy, discrimination and inequality is doomed to failure. Unless a proper economy with a fair tax system and fairer distribution of wealth exists the system will fall about our ears.

Jim,

If "voters are half wits" and all of us of adult age are "voters" then you can see humans are stupid, but they can't all be "half" wits. On average, they must all be of average intelligence. And you have to include yourself and all of us in the mix. In any democracy, candidates have to pass so many litmus tests that it's pretty unusual that any will get elected or even be eligible to be elected who haven't been watered down and considered the least dangerous to those paying the costs of elections. Politics is most often the mix of the most bland points of view and the end result is electing people likely to do the least amount of damage, not the most amount of good. Hillary is considered too conservative even though she only voted Conservative 9% of the time. McCain is considered too Liberal even though he only voted liberal 13% of the time. Barak is very popular because he pretty much never failed to vote the most liberal party line. He didn't offend anyone in his party. Now it will be interesting to see what happens in the general election when he has to get the same approval from folks who don't agree with his party line. The independents, in the end, will decide this one. And among independents, the two candidates present two of the better options than we've found in a long time, for nearly opposite reasons. McCain is the "safe" traditonal conservative who is actually willing to vote what he believes even if it violates the party line and he's willing to try and do the right thing by reach across the aisle. Obama has, at least rhetorically, if not via actual example, also offered to reach across the aisle to work together. Sure, politicians often make these promises, but this time around folks seem to believe each candidate. I think it will be very interesting to see what happens between these two people, one who has rock star like enthusiastic support and the other who has the respect, even among Democrats, as one of the most honest politicians to ever make it to a party nomination. Both have tried to rise above the typical sleaze surrounding a run for major office, and it's my hope that they'll continue that into the national race. I think that would be good for everyone.

Wouldn't it be a movie like ending for the winner to choose the loser as VP? That would take some balls.. but I doubt either party or either candidate could truly rise to that level of bi-partisanship.

The fact that the US allows people as disgruntled as Richard to have their vote and speak their mind (and even to insult everyone who doesn't agree with him) and the fact that we welcome folks like our crazy Scottish uncle or our sage Canadian attorney to chime in on the discussion says a lot about the US in and of itself. Imagine Russia or China or Iran allowing or tolerating any of it.

Brian

Brian perhaps you have missed my point I was only talking about the futility of the way things are. I said half wits in a very mocking way to a previous post. You took it literally. My sarcasm always gets me into trouble.
Yes it is very much compromise and damage limitation voting for any candidate they all will be ineffective and will make little or no difference to the "real world."
Whoever is elected it will just be more of the same and they will be under the thumb of the real powers, OIL, BIG BUSINESS and INTERNATIONAL FINANCE.

Well, may as well give a viewpoint from another Western democracy.....

The US, like like all Western nations, is no more free than anywhere else. Like Oz, the US has instituted the largest range of freedom defying laws ever to grace the planet. You, and all of us can be listened to, spied on, held without charge for indefinite periods, and carted off to the Gulag at any time without a court order or due process.

It is also primarily run by the power brokers, the money men, and the dozen or so families which own of 99% of it's wealth. e.g. George, and Son of George. Hilary and Bill.

We've just booted out our conservative government after a ten year reign of misinformation, scare tactics and downright lying , to replace it with a more socialistic and hopefully socially just alternative.

I sincerely hope my US mates will do the same thing, and reign in the loss of freedom before the Homeland boys can spread their fear mongering, and their socially inequitable policy any further.

Just my 2 cents from a supposodly free Oz citizen.

cheers, niteshift

I'd like to make a public apology to the people of the United States. (does that sound cool or what?)

I made a statement that I did not think America was ready for a Black President, or a woman President, I think I was wrong.
The turn out in this Election has surprised me. Everyone knew most Blacks would vote Obama and the majority of women would vote Hillary but I never thought either would get much support from White men or that whites in general would support Obama.
I was very surprised, pleasantly so, to see that we have finally started to conquer racism. It still exists but we are on the right path. So I apologize.

As far as you folks that think we have given up our freedom.
I don't by it.
Yes we have made it easier for Law enforcement to get into our private lives but from what I have read they still have to show probable cause. We still have our guns, Unlike most of the countries that whine about losing their freedom. Americans will NEVER give up our guns. They insure our freedom.

And there's about 20 Million illegal Mexicans that will argue the point, they walk around free as could be. The law still can't ask you for identification if you have not committed a crime.

For you folks that use the "kids are getting killed in school" thing, or look at your murder rate.
Well I think IRAQ is a typical example of how much killing you can do with guns. People who want to kill will find a way.

Personally I think our weak judicial system and lack of capital punishment is the reason. Couple that with a poor economy and rampant drug use and you get lots of killing.

Hey Bill,

I was commenting on your own personal freedom. You may want to check out your current security laws, you may be shocked.

I agree the economy, as you put it, or rather the growing inequity between rich and poor is the main contributer to higher crime rates.

cheers, niteshift

There will always be a trade-off between security and freedom. They are mutually exclusive.

In war time, Americans have shown a willingness to give up freedom to obtain more security. Eventually though, either the war ends or people lose their patience and the pendulum begins to swing the other way.

As long as the pendulum still moves, I'm not too worried...

The loss of freedoms that we have today, in my opinion, pales compared to what we endured (or embraced) during WW II (draft, rationing, internal spying [albeit with worse techology]). But the leaders then wisely involved the entire American populace in the war effort, while our current leaders put the brunt of the war effort on the families of soldiers and try to encourage the rest of us to continue consuming as if nothing is wrong....

Talk about a recipe for polarizing people!

Scott

Any system not based on greed and selfishness is doomed to failure because it is contrary to mans genetic nature. Me and mine are the basis of genetics in man with out selfishness the species dies.

All socialist type systems can't work because they go against genetics.

Hi Niteshift

Yes we have lost some of that on the personal side.
I am not sure how all that applies, is it a temporary wartime thing? I don't think we have had any constitutional amendments to our freedoms. Once this war is over(?) things will go back to where they were. We have groups like the ACLU that will see to that.

During WW2 we were locking up Japanese/Americans in interment camps simply because they were Japanese. That will never happen again, lets hope. I wonder why we didn't round up all the Germans.

Our constitution protects us against a lot of things but I know some of it can be suspended during war time. We will have to see how this goes.
Like it or not we are at war.

I kind of like having the Rich in Powerful edumacated people in charge.
It beats having some uneducated weenie poor person running things.

I think you summed up a very true point Doug. You can't legislate human nature. And humans are vicious, selfish and greedy by genetic nature. Look at our history. We've never had sustained worldwide peace in any era. And individual countries only have sustained peace because they use artificial means (laws, jails, punishment by a more powerful entity).

There was a time when people could be controlled by the scarcity of knowledge (i.e. how to build fires, hunt animals, what food was safe etc.). That's why those in charge kept everyone else in the dark. Then, as populations started to grow, enough smart people were outside the system so that knowledge alone couldn't control everyone. Then they took the knowledge used it to make weapons powerful enough to defeat anyone who stood in their way. We've never stopped pumping money and technology into weapons design and unless we eliminate ourselves, we won't stop. Next, when enough folks had weapons and the elite didn't have the numbers to quell the masses within their own walls (they still kept killing their enemies) they had to come up with something "new" to control people. And this was a brilliant moment where the church came up front and foremost. By creating a mysterious super-power in the sky who would condemn you beyond death for eternity unless you did what "he" said, they were able to control the masses (and still do to this day). The church was able to take politics underground and call it the church. Churches are very political entities with very specific power control efforts that are always ongoing. Right now in western society, science has reached an undeniable point which at least casts doubt to the masses that the church doctrines are more fable and less fact. So when the church no longer has a tight control on the masses at home, and the military isn't allowed to keep the order over the masses at home (again, they still do it in battle with others outside their own country) they had to have something to replace knowledge, military might and religion. Welcome to the corporation. Now, corporations hold all control over the masses in a country. They control jobs. They control your debt. They control which candidates you're allowed to vote for because only those with the cash can even be put in front of you for consideration to start with. The corporate in the US is more powerful than the military, the church, the scientists or any other entity.

Interestingly enough, we're on the cusp of a new age. The ability for people of all types to communicate across borders and without monitoring by the corporations, the church, the government or anyone else may lead to a whole new model for how people will be controlled in the future. I think one possibility is Medicine. We are very near a stage where it's not science fiction that people may stop dying of natural causes.


So let's enter into a hypothetical scenario: I bet in 200 years, the only death will be accident, murder or suicide. Murder will become the leading cause of death in the form of war. When populations simply can't survive in a place, they will spill over and mass extermination will take place. And if everyone lives forever, there's not much room for babies. We may well see similar controls put in place where lifetimes are rationed out. Want a child? No problem.. have it, but then one of the two parents must forfeit their life to make room. It will be like Logan's Run. And what might happen is that people will simply be cloned to create a second "self" and their knowledge and personality and brain will be captured and implanted into the new body via a brain transfer.

Okay.. that might be a good sci fi novel. It's not the most likely outcome, but a new paradigm will have to be created once knowledge and power is so equal across all peoples and they can interact beyond the control of a few.

In the meantime, the US economy is in big trouble. For some reason the value of our dollar has plummeted and the government doesn't seem at all concerned. Of course that's because it makes our goods much more affordable to outsiders, but it sure is a problem for our own country. And it will catch up to us when we can't afford to compete with other contries because our money has no value outside our borders. We're nearly there already. I don't think Obama OR McCain has an idea or an answer for the economy, and even if they did, the real powers pulling the strings aren't likely to let them shift the balance of power elsewhere.

Happy thoughts for us Yanks eh? = )

Brian

Problem is Brian, that it's not just 'you Yanks' as you put it. Thanks to the global banking community lending out more money than someone was able to pay back, and the average consumer spending more than he earns, I now have to pay a couple of hundred dollars extra per month on my home loan because of the defaults in the US, to which our domestic banks are exposed.

Governments have always been controlled by big busines, and always will be. But, as you say, now that the genie is out of the bottle, and information is freely available, unrestricted and uncontrolled, it will be an interesting few decades to come.

Over-consumerism is just killing the global economy, and as soon as the populace learns to live within their means, the better.

I don't know who is going to win your election, but they better put together a tight budget for the sake of eveyone.

cheers, niteshift

We should have a balanced budget amendment but no one has the courage to make one. We should start with:

1. Defense (Both military and local law enforcement)
2. Infrastructure (Highways and Bridges and Roads)

Once those two things are paid for, all other budget issues should come afterwards. And if we fall short of being able to meet our national budget, then they have to be cut. If we can't pay for the two things above, then taxes have to be raised.

Brian

Niteshift
I find this a very curious statement. Are you saying that our mortgage crisis has raised your mortgage payment. By that are you saying you have an adjustable rate mortgage without a cap? Because I think that would be the only way that could happen. Now you are blaming that on America?
Those are the exact same type of mortgages that got this whole mess started in the first place.
Folks that bought into those mortgages did so because they could not afford the homes they were buying and rather than buy a cheaper home they took a very High risk adjustable rate mortgage.
A buy now pay later mentality. Hoping somehow they would be in a better financial picture in the near future not realizing the mortgage payments might double. There was no way income would double as well. So now the rest of the world is going to blame that on us as well.
And for new mortgages the rates are quite low right now.
apologies if I misunderstood.
Boy we are real stinkers ain't we.

Sir, you are an intelligent man, for sure. But quite oblivious to your own hypocrisy. You claim I use "extremist language", then exaggerate my words to prove your point. A quick read of your post shows you doing precisely what you accuse me of.

You know the old saying..when America sneezes..the rest of the world catches a cold..especially relevant in the financial market..Sub-Prime lending in the housing market in the States,which was totally unsustainable..well the chickens have now came home to roost..and the domino effect has reverberated around the world's financial houses..they all wanted a piece of the "action"..with all their fatcat bonuses for new business..now the "for sale" signs are springing up all over the USA...and Mr Clawback has moved in.who do you think is gonna make up the shortfall...you don't expect the "banker boys" to hand back their bonus cheques now do ya?..no of course not!...let's put up the mortgage rate worldwide...The UK government had to nationalise one of the major lenders over here to save it going under..NORTHERN ROCK...they were big players in the American sub-prime market...just pure corporate greed!!

Where's all the wimin?

Interpret it how you will, but I just did a quick count, and outta 179 replies, we've had 1 Bobbie Gallup, 1 Linda Whitney & 2 Emily Sanders...

If my math is right, that makes it 175 to 4.

Midnite(curious)Bob

Richard,

The difference is that in this argument, I am correct and you are not. It's really that simple. If you were making TRUE statements or at least forming an argument with actual facts to back it up, that would be one thing. But you didn't do that. Because the facts don't support your statement. I simply get tired of people making flipant negative comments about things which aren't true and are inflamatory. It's a lazy way to think and a lazy way to communicate.

There's plenty of ACTUAL problems with the USA and the politicians who are running things. But we still do more for more people on the planet than any other nation I am aware of across a lot of different issues. I can't see where we've ever got similar help or support in return from all these folks who not only want our help, but expect and demand it. And even when we give it, we're ridiculed and attacked anyway by those same people.

We provide a forum here for folks to discuss stuff. Politics are always contentious when you have a diverse group involved as we do here. We allow you to have your say and you need to allow us to have the same chance. And just because we strongly butt heads on this topic doesn't mean we value you less. I've disagreed strongly with the majority of active posters here on one or more issues. We don't take disagreements personally here.

And once again I thank you for bringing the movie "Once" to our attention. It's really got me motivated to work on our video project.

Brian

I didn't realize we were arguing. I thought I was stating an opinion and you were attacking me for it. What is it, exactly, that you think we are arguing about? And, please try to say it in fewer than 200 words.

Oh, and the next time you want to thank me for bringing something to your attention, try to do it before it wins an Oscar. It would mean so much more.

"Dying not long after writing that spared him the sorrow of watching such an America disappear."

Wrong. Short enough?

And what do the Oscars have to do with anything? I watched it before the Oscars the first day it was available on our cable network? It appears you have a strong desire to lock horns. So be it. You seem like a really angry and miserable guy Richard. Lighten up. 73 words.

You got to be kiddin' Bob
Wimmin got more sense than to get in a pissin' contest like this.
Even my wife won't talk politics with me.
She's a lot smarter than me anyhow so that's a good thing.

2

You have that backwards, niteshift. Governments use big businesses to do things that they can't do. Any business that is a corporation has government for a controling partner.

Hey Doug,

I think your statement is self contradictory.

Corporations want and require control. They buy it.

Example ; The Commander in Chiefs' generals, including Colin Powell, recommended against the present war in Iraq. The VP, who is a stakeholder in Halliburton, advised the military interventionist approach. We all know who won. War makes money, but only for the chosen few.

When a Commander in Chief ignores the advice of his generals, history will tell you the answer.

cheers, niteshift

All Capitalist type systems cannot work as they go against fairness.
If you think that governments control big business then you know little about history and world econonmics.

Wow, the cynicism in this thread is neck-deep!

No wonder Obama is doing so well.

My nother 2 cents worth

Obama is doing so well because of a lot of factors. The biggest one being that he knows how to put out a feel good message without really stating what his real plans are. If most Americans really understood how far in the hole his, or Hillary's, plans are going to put us; they would be running as far as they could in the other direction. Our great grandkids will still be paying the bill if either gets in. He is also doing very well because a lot of white voters are feeling very guilty that we haven't had a black president, and seeing that he is so nice they figure he can't cause any real harm to the country. He is also getting the middle class black vote, when they will be in the same boat as the rest of us who'll end up paying for all these great sounding programs. I think one of the two will get into office. I only hope the Republicans can find a way to control the House and Senate. I don't think McCain is better, by a whole lot, But he looks like the safest alternative we have.

The one very redeeming quality democracy has, is it rewards effort. When you get into any of the other systems I've seen, all you have to do to live, is collect off others efforts. While this is true about the socialist policies put into effect here, such as welfare etc., it is not as prevalent as it is in the countries where socialism and communism reign. We are going farther and farther in that direction while most of the world is moving away from it. Personally, I'd rather not have a great portion of my earnings go to someone who doesn't want to work, or who wants me to pay for their multiple childrens health and education.

"Personally, I'd rather not have a great portion of my earnings go to someone who doesn't want to work, or who wants me to pay for their multiple children's health and education."

I agree 100%. That is the main reason that socialism has failed.
However I do not mind paying for good quality services and subsidising people who want to but CANNOT work due to a variety of legit reasons. People who have disabilities or other health probs and the elderly deserve to be looked after properly without having to worry about paying bills they cannot afford. That is my main gripe about the right wing policies of the US and the UK which itself is becoming more right wing on a daily basis.
Obama has been described as a white middle class man with a black skin meaning he has more in common with white middle classes than black people who he has nothing in common with.

Hi Jim,

I have nothing against helping people with disabilities, the elderly, or those who through no fault of their own, are down on their luck. If you look at the number of people in this country on the "Dole", you would be amazed at how many are there because they don't want to work. You would also be amazed at the amount of money we spend to keep the estimated 20 million illegal aliens in food, housing, and health care. Personally, I'd like to see us right wing enough to tell everyone that can, no work no eat. I'd also like to see us say that if you can't afford to support your kids, when you have them, you shouldn't expect me to.

Obama's economic policies are going to hit the middle class harder than anyone else. We are going to have more taxes taken out of our pockets to support all those who don't want to work. More social programs = higher taxes. Who will pay? The same ones who pay the highest percentage of their incomes now, the middle class.

Uh,
The S*i* is getting deep here. "Corporations want and need control" They buy it. Really? With what? The VP is a stake holder in Halliburton etc. Who believes that blather? Some left wing Rag that needs to sell a News Story?
I believe Cheny sold his interest when he became V.P.
Niteshift, you need to get on dayshift.

Complaining about big Corporations such as Halliburton is not new. There were the same complaints when Lyndon Johnson was president about Brown and Root getting government contracts with the military. I think Brown and Root are a part of Halliburton.

you betcha.

People want to hear everything is going to be fine. Don't worry I am going to take care of you. And there will never be another war.
You tell them that long enough and loud enough with a smile and sooner or later they will start to believe it.
Especially if they are hurting.

John I still agree 100%. The divide between the haves and the have nots is far too wide for me. I am not talking about lazy good for nothings. I am talking about hard working folk who work for a pittance just to line the pockets of the ultra rich.

Ray you are far too right wing for me. I cannot understand how working folk can allow themselves to be trampled on without a fight. To support, encourage or justify such exploitation is absolutely mind boggling. The problem is that since the Mccarthy witch trials Americans have been petrified to support anything even slightly left of fascist. OK I exaggerate but you get my point. Divide and conquer and rule by fear has taken it's toll.

I think you're wrong. People aren't as stupid as you like to think.

A huge part of being President is the ability to inspire and lead. Not just our nation, but the rest of the world as well. Inspiration counts. And to quote a Seth Godin article I recently saw: cynicism is a lousy strategy.

It is hard to understand the economic and social structure here. The less you make, the more programs are open to you and your children, even if you are here illegally. That's why the middle class carry the burden. We have to pay for everything we get, no free, or partially subsidised healthcare, no grants, or government student loans to get the kids through college etc. Most of us don't get tax breaks except for money we've already spent to get us to, or ahead, in our work. One of the first things that needs to be taken care of in this country is tax reform. Lower to middle middle class are punished for getting more education and working harder to get ahead. The more you make, the less you get to keep. That's why a lot of middle class people are getting so disillusioned. It's why they're looking for a change. Problem is the change they're likely to get, is one they won't want after they get it.

To misquote a famous politician Winston Churchill and use a bit of poetic licence
"Never in the field of human conflict have so many promised so much and delivered so little"
That sums up politicoans in my opinion.

OK Big Jim,
When we need to build an Aircraft Carrier we can't go down to "Billys" Machine and Welding Shop and place the order. I am a realist, not a dreamer. I would like to do things the Liberal way, but as you know, someone has to keep the trains running on time. And even worse, someone has to pay the bills. Liberals want to do great things, they just want to do it with someone elses money. And over here they have been in charge for the last 45 years. We have a 9 trillion dollar debt to show for it.
But wait!, their are so many down and out citizens that need our help! They can't make it on their own! They need help!

The biggest boondoggle we have is the government run medicare. It's called an "Entitlement". Look at it this way Big Jim, the Democrats want to run the country, but they want the Republicians to pay for it. The Democrats say, elect me and I will give you the moon, The Republicians say, we have given you all the tools, if you want the moon go work for it.

If everybody waited for someone else to do it, how long do you think that would last? I have been looking at the cold, hard facts of life for too many years to be fooled by any Pie in the Sky scheme.

I have no problem with welfare, but it became a way of life for a lot of people over here for too many years.

P.s. The Witch Trials was in the 1600's if I have my info right. McCarthy was in the 1950's as I remember.

I have no problem with anyone getting rich. They work for it and probably have the ulcers to show for it. Most people over here are not poor. Most do all right and are probably pretty happy.
Some don't know when they are well off however and complain and complain. I think the Carmakers are buying out the last of the Union Workers because the Unions have priced themselves out of business and it costs too much to produce a car to be profitable.
As the old sayng goes, you can't get blood out of a Turnip.

A 15 dollar per hour hour worker can't pay for a 28 dollar per hour automobile worker.