JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Your positive and negative songs.

Mike: Excellent review, I appreciate the time you spent here. Even if you didn't take a lot of "time", it still took many years to get that knowledge you have and it is generous of you to pass it along.

I won't respond fully just yet, because I am recording right now for the RPM, but I thought I would quickly comment on a couple of things.

1.) It dawned on me the other day that I really don't incorporate "lifts" in my tunes -- it is something I have to force myself to try. Even if my first few attempts sound like a "formula", I can only get better by doing.

2.) "Feeling" -- "Slaps myself upside the head" Yup, I'm telling you how I feel, not showing.

3.) I knew the music was very G,C,D all the way through. I am a somewhat unimaginative composer/melody writer (limited singing range). Which is why I use a lot of other people's backing tracks -- sometimes gets me to try a new thing. BUT -- I have a keyboard sitting here right next to me. After this CD is over, I am really going to work at charting my melodies out, so I can break out of the same ol' same ol'.

Thanks a lot!!!!!!

Kevin

Ray,

Old buddy. You are still bringing up songs that are between 10-15 years old.

Blue was around 2000.

Don't Tell me What to do: Around 1997

The Lee Anne Womack is a bit more current but things change now at the speed of light. If you are two or three years behind, you are in the ancient world.

It is not that everything has to be a positive subject. It is the spin you take on that subject. Even if it is a "down subject, you have to have a "rope of hope."

The biggest song of this year is "Stay" written and performed by Jennifer Nettles, of Sugarland. Won Grammy for song of the year.

The first verse you find out the woman's boyfriend/husband is having an affair with another woman.
The first chorus is the singer emploring him to "Stay with her."
Same with the second chorus. The "twist is in the last chorus where she is imploring him to "Stay" with the other woman, and leaving her alone. Classic woman empowerment.
But one caveat. Jennifer, lived, wrote and sang that. Even if you had a song as good as that one, there is NO WAY she is going to take your song over hers. Period.

In "Next Time he Cheats" Carrie Underwood is doing a juxtaposition song, doing what every woman has ever wanted to do, take a "Lousville slugger" and a "key to the guy's car."
Woman empowerment.

In the ACSS (angry chick singer songs) there is an element of getting past all the bad elements of their lives. Showing people in the same position, how to escape. Bad Marriges, abuse,
Ever hear ANY thing Martina McBride does? "Independence Day", "Goodbye Earl" Dixie Chicks? Every single one sets up the tough situation, then finds a way out.

Sit coms like Andy Griffith show, and the Lucy show are on the TV 40 years after they were done and still more popular than ever because they solved the problems in the world in 22 1/2 minute. (Time for the show minus commercials) We are doing the same thing in 3 1/2 minutes.

On the guy side, it is mostly about getting the girl. That is the same thing Sinatra, Elvis, The Beatles, etc. did. That is the only reason you start playing music as a guy. Come on, be real guys, which 16 year old, acne encrusted guy,who is bad in school, washes out for the football team, supposed to do to get women? Does he sit down and say:
"What kind of sensitive life altering subjects can I write about to point out the inequities of the International banking system, as it relates to the current taxable entities on my 401 K plan, and how can I convince people that we must save the enviroment from long winded singers and writers expelling so much carbon dioxide by singing long winded songs about the inequeties of the International banking system and current taxable entities, relating to 401 K's and saving the environment?" NOT A CHANCE.
Although there are some of those people out there. They end up being over 40, going on web sites about songwriting and talk about how terrible everything is because the music industry has rejected their songs about the inequeties of the.... you know,
CRUMUDGEONS!!!
The rest of the guys just want to get laid.

MAB

Marc,

Get ready for the change.

We've had decades of female empowerment songs since Loretta Lynn broke the wall. Now we'll be seeing male empowerment songs, not threatening to females, but making the man a protector and making the man stuff a romantic alternative to the metrosexual...as in "I'm Still a Guy." Sort of a "sensitive" cave man.

"Sensitive caveman." I like that. I think you're right, too, Mike. With the 401(k) disappeared into the thankless maw of AIG, my former job on the ash-heap of history (along with a lot of other folks'), and being labeled a curmudgeon on the grounds I write like Hank Williams the Elder, what's left? Could be a song in it...

Joe

Guys,

Most of what I post here and on other threads come from my personal experience of writing with some of the most legendary writers in the business. This is a partial list of some of my co-writers and their hits (These are not mine):

David Vincent Williams-
I'm moving On (Rascal Flatts
Just Got Started Loving you (James Otto)

Jimbeau Hinson:
Tonight I'm Looking for a Party Crowd (David Lee Murphy)
Setting Fancy Free (Oak Ridge Boys)

Kim Tribble:
Guys Do it All the time (Mindy McCreedy)
I Can Still See You (Colin Raye)

Kim Williams
"Ain't Going Down till the Sun Comes Up (Garth Brooks)
"Three Wooden Crosses (Randy Travis)

Joie Scott
We're not that Different (Colin Raye)
Shoes (Shania Twain)

Wood Newton
Riding with Private Malone (David Ball)
Too Much Blood in my Alcohol Level (David Ball)

Larry Butler
Hey Won't you play Another Somebody done somebody wrong song
(BJ Thomas)

Chas Sandford
I Ain't Missing you at all (John Waite, Allison Krause, Brooks and Dunn, Rod Stewart, Tina Turner)

Richard Leigh
Don't it make my Brown Eyes Blue (Crystal Gayle)

Jeffery Steele
(Everything in country music for the last 7 years)

That is enough. I have been around for a long time and you get people that take pity on your from time to time. I think it has something to do with community service. LOL! The reason I am doing this name dropping, is to tell you not to name drop. Just kidding.
The real reason is that these people and I always try to do very similar things with songs and pass it on the best we can. That is that three elements of hit songs exist, essentially for our form of writing in Nashville but also in others as some of the rock writers demonstrate,

#1 Reality based.
#2 Conversational tone
#3 Great melodic hook.

They always try to keep songs in a reality based situation. Jimbeau calls it the "Mirror of the soul." That is that people want to see themselves in the song. If they look at it, can see the situation and relate it to their lives, you are in the ballpark. If they don't, "They go back to what they were doing and ignore you."

They try to keep it conversational, that is like two friends., lovers, parents, etc. talking. That eliminates the poetic lofty words that sound like Shakespeare, or the "Sam I Am Green Eggs and Ham" cliched' rhymes. Makes it not sound like a silly Dr. Suess book. (Not that there's anything wrong with that for Dr. Suess.)

The melodies are infinately singable. And designed as to where people can easily hum along. You can usually sing along with it by the second chorus.

Just wanted to pass along those tips. Hope it helps.

MAB

Marc,
You really don't need to go around the world to get next door. I believe you may have said a good song is a good song no matter if it appears negative or postive. Things were a lot more in black and white in the 50's than the 90's or so but doesn't excuse bad music. And again, I was giving song examples of what someone would consider a postive or negative song. It doesn't matter if it was written yesterday or 60 years ago.

I have two modern country radio stations programmed on my stereo that I can listen to. The truth is that most of the offerings being played sounds like it is in the middle of a trashing machine, meaning I can't tell heads or tails what I'm listening to.

It's like they are trying to say something and nothing at the same time. Songs from the past probably can be described in postive and negative terms. I don't think there are any negative songs that have been recorded except where they are small releases that only a handful of people may have gotten a copy.

No problem, I guess the question can't be answered. Mike tried.

Ray,

I guess I just don't know what you are listening to. I think there is some really good music being made out there. Has always been plenty of stuff that is less than palatable. Everyone has their tastes. But could be I am a little prejudiced, since a lot of these people who make the music today are friends of mine.
For my money, many of the writers and artists of yesterday were the ones who were far from clear,or black and white, a lot of it being closer to paisly and tie die for my taste and if you ask them today much of that music was drug induced and designed to reflect what they were going through at that time. Again, some of those guys are people I know also and I get that point of view from them.
So as far as any one question, I am sorry if I can't provide an answer for you. I'm just trying to do what I can to explain a bit of what it is like from the "other side of the desk" with the people who are doing this in today's market, from the writer, artist, publisher, plugger, and record industry side.

MAB

Marc: Don't worry about it. I've been on the minority side of a lot of "today's music is crap" threads.

It's not today's music, but I even started a thread called "In praise of Achey-Breaky Heart" because it was listed as the worst #1 country song of all time. It came out during the line dancing craze (OK, Cyrus's version -- I think that song kicked around for 10 years before that) and was perfect for that type of dancing. After listening to the song and watching the video, I decided that the song rocked and I wished I had written it (LOL). You may think that song is a turkey, but I bet you had written it also.

Anyway, I also believe that Bruce Springsteen's version of "Blinded by the Light" is infinitely better than Manfred Mann's version. I make a living being in the minority position.

Kevin

Marc you supplied a list of names. Sorry to say I have never heard of any one of them...just goes to show that there is a vast difference in music taste and availability across the pond. I could probably make a similar list of people who I admire or have worked with and most country fans would never have heard of them.

BTW Kevin you have NO taste in Blinded by the light music...LOL

EVERYONE KNOWS my VERSION IS BEST.

Nope. I didn't try yet, said I'd not just try but go through all the examples you gave and say if they were positive or negative. I'll even throw in a definition of positive and negative songs to boot. Now, whether folks accept that or not...well that's their problem, but I will do it.

OK, Here goes.

Your Cheatin' Heart is a revenge song. The turn in the song is, "...the way I do..." saying Hank's hurting just as much. A revenge lyric is just barely positive. It gets back at the girl for hurting him. The music swings, it cries in it's beer, but makes you want to dance. It's as negative as a positive song can get. I've sung this song a whole bunch. Rating: POSITIVE


Settin' The Woods on Fire. Ray, someone has to tell you that a party song is positive? Hank's out to raise a ruckus. He'll take his old hotrod with tires so bald that "the air is showing through" one of my favorite lines in any song...up there with "let's not be L-7." They're out to party. I sing this a lot at the dances also. Rating: POSITIVE

I'll Go Alone. I love me some Marty Robbins, but this was not his best. Of course he wrote it. It's one of these "take me as I am, or I'll just go alone" songs. Basically positive, but nothing to compare with his negative song, This Time You Gave Me a Mountain, or the negative murder ballad EL Paso, great songs. Not his best but...Rating: POSITIVE

Leann Rimes' Blue is a wonderful negative song. I got to play with her for one of her first showcases at the Sweetwater Lounge. She was a teenager and knocked everyone out. Blue was supposed to sound like Patsy Cline, sort of like her "You Belong to Me," only negative. Rating: NEGATIVE

Never Again, Again. Leann Womack sings the frog droppings out of this song. I always thought it would be good for Reba. If it was a swing tune, like "Pour Me," I might be tempted to call it a positive song, but with the exquisite heartache in it I would say...Rating: NEGATIVE

Don't Tell Me What to Do. I wish I had a nickle for every time I played bass on this backing up a female singer. As Marc said, this is a woman on top...er...I mean taking control of her life. Plus the music is very up. Rating: POSITIVE

A positive song is one that is happy, or expresses hope, or it is a song where the singer "wins" in the situation. Attitude has a lot to do with it. A negative song is one that is sad, or expresses no hope, or where the singer "loses" in the situation. If a song on the fence, almost negative, is sung slow in a minor key, then it falls on the N side. If the same song gets a train beat and a chicken pick guitar, it might take a P...I mean get rated a P.

I love a lot of negative songs. One of my favorites is "Misery and Gin" by Haggard. I sing that one a lot also. It's like an old suitcoat. Way out of style, but I like to wear it. I wouldn't wear one like it to a job interview though. That would be a mistake, like pitching old sounding, negative songs to a publisher I don't know.

Anyway, that's the way I rate those. Got any more you want me to rate?

Hey Mike, Thanks.

It's interesting that you mention songs you like that are "Ancient History" according to "Another" poster here who shall remain nameless. Of course that wasn't the subject.

I'LL GO ON ALONE was of course Marty Robbins first hit and sold a reportedly 600,000 copies. I didn't know that Marty wrote it as I had heard Webb Pierces cover many years before as it was a big hit for Webb as well.

A lot of old songs are out of style today, or are they?

I heard that George Strait was playing THERE STANDS THE GLASS on his shows a few years ago. Hummn.....

Ray, I love it all, old or new. Music is so much better than silence. Sure, songs I love are out of style. Songs I love are in style too.

Back to the subject. I'm not saying, and I'm sure Marc would agree, that folks shouldn't write negative songs. Write the best songs you can. Just don't stop trying to write the hard stuff, the positive songs. When those positive songs get you in the door and, God willing, get you some good cuts, then the negative songs won't scare off the suits.

Folks can limit themselves and diminish their chances or break through those limitations and increase their chances.

Undoubtedly, 100% guaranteed...up-positive songs have a tremendously better chance at getting a songwriter noticed. And they always have, even when I got here in the late seventies when some of those songs that old fa...I mean some of those songs that seasoned individuals love. But, truly great up-positive songs are much harder to write, so there's a glut of the negatives. Again, again, again, sad songs, negative songs, angry songs are a dime a dozen. Up, positive, enlightening, uplifting, funny, dance-making songs are like gold.

But what do I know? What does Marc know? Or Rand? I suppose folks are better off getting their information from people who aren't living in a music center and whose business isn't making music.

Big Jim,

Each one of those writers I mentioned have written songs that sold in excess of one million copies in markets all over the world. Except for Chas Sandford (I Ain't Missing You At All) which has sold around 10 million copies and been cut somewhere around thirty times and number one four times in three different markets.
Jeffery Steele has had 800 cuts, 87 singles, 12 number ones in country, rock and pop markets in the past six years. You probably have heard their songs even if you don't know the names. but again, I aim these comments mostly for people in the states who tend to find their ways into Nashville at one way or the other, because almost all other forms of music are totally self contained, meaning the artists, producers or inner circle, write almost 100% of all songs they do. Nashville is around 90%.
I am not here to argue with anyone on these threads. I am not interested in getting cuts, getting hits,. or winning awards. I am interested in writing very good and great songs and touching people's lives. That is it. Everything I talk about is about that.
I relay some information in the hopes that people take it in and apply it to their music. The reason is I would love for them to participate in writing opportuntites in their home areas. Perform good songs in clubs, open mics, writers shows, etc. to keep people drinking and eating and having a good time in resurants and bars and keep customers there to keep the doors open and having places for us to play.
I care about them getting outside of themselves and go to meetings of other writers who sometimes come through these areas. Co-writing, sharing ideas, and music and enriching their neighborhoods. I want people to appreciate what a musician and writer goes through and understand that there is a face and person behind the songs so they might illegally download one less song. I would like people to understand the craft and have workshops and seminars in their areas so they can expose their music to professionals, to go to schools and explain music to kids, to be involved in the arts so that it could support itself without non-sensical government interferance.
I like writers who support these types of threads with their time, effort and money, to get a leg up on the competition, avoid mistakes, save money and time where possible and understand things like marketing, and the "other side of the desk" what the industry goes through and why, in order to maximize the effect in it.
I live in one of the most vibrant encompassing music societies there is that have a diverse population and musical varity. I would love more people to experience it, find their way to supporting our studios, resturants, tourism, bars, writers nights,etc, and along the way enrich their own lives by meeting and interacting with like minded individuals. If for nothing else but making better friends a long the way.

I did my own song search tonight. I listened for one hour on the top radio station in Nashville, WSIX 96. It goes out to multiple states at night and is one of the most popular in the country. In one hour there was a mixture of the most current hits (about 9, and two older hits, Alabama and George Straight)
There was not a negative song in them. Recently, with clients of mine, I have had them watch current video channels for country music,and have not recently seen a negative song.
In the more negative theme songs, Next Time He Cheats, Stay, etc. there is a sense of woman empowerment and overcoming their struggles with a ray of hope at the end. With songs about Cancer, war, current economic situation, there is a sense of overcoming the struggle and surviving and flourishing.

Then I went to a party at the home of a very famous and succesful Nashville, LA,London, and Canadian producer. There were about 25 people, most of which were some incredible, session and live players and singers, with artists like Billy Joel, Bob Dylan, Leon Russel, Eric Clapton, and many others. This was a hodge podge of amazing players. After a very nice meal of Southern BBQ, everybody got tired of watching the Academy Awards and gathered in the living room where there was a collection of amps, PA, drums, grand piano, congas, etc. and for the next three hours jammed on cover songs. Mustang Sally, Try a Little Tenderness, Get Back, Great Balls of Fire, Lay Down Sally, My Girl, Papa Was a Rolling Stone, Honky Tonk Women, Runaway, and the like, were played. The only condition was that they had to be up tempo and fun to play.
And at the end of the day, to me that is what music is about. Fun. In everything I do, everything I say, is designed to attempt to show the fun of music and sharing it with people all over.
Sorry this is so long, but I just wanted to get that out. I do care about all of you.

MAB

Hi Marc....We all do the best we can....Some of the most beatiful songs ever written are negative songs....There have been protest songs and love gone wrong songs for a very long time. I see people up dancing enjoying themselves and laughing at some of the shallow up tempo songs...but when a sad song that really hits the spot comes on you can feel the atmosphere. There is more than enough room for both types of song. Sad that a particular genre should only want up tempo songs and that writers are encouraged to write these type rather than slow ballads.
I have sung with bands for many years and generally a good mix is what is required....a mood change especially goes down well and towards the end of the evening people want a good old fashioned slowy...to cuddle up to.
Every human has moodswings and every musician and songwriter has to cater for each occasion.
Some of the most memorable timeless songs are sad tearjerkers.
FUN in their own way.
Ask any couple about "THEIR SONG" I bet it is not up tempo but a tearjerker or slow ballad.
Whether it is a toetapper or a tearjerker songs "move" people.
The skill element is knowing when and where and why we write or perform these. Writing is not just about words and music it is about capturing emotions and feelings and being able to package it.
Dreams are a valuable currency in a bank.....you have to deposit some before you can make a withdrawal.

I also have met and worked with some great people in the business some are genuine down to earth nice people...others.... well?
For what it is worth..the higher up the ladder the more down to earth they generally are....I have met some real idiots who "THINK" they are somebody....when they are in fact a nobody.

Jim,

That is why they call it Freedom of opinion. I have seen the same things you are talking about tear jerkers, some negative people at a higher level of stardom. I personally could care less for tear jerkers. Never have. Protest songs have always bored me about as bad as anything that exists. Again, I just have no use for the, Enough negative out there in life.
And as far as negative people high up the ladder, I have seen the exact opposite. Again, that is why I wish people could experience a little of what I am talking about. Again, it about what you are surrounded by. In music, when you hear nothing but negative songs, particularly negative songs that fail miserably on every test, you don't have to be hit in the head with a pole to realize what not to do.
Again, I am only talking about my personal experiences. I only deal with people around the world on a continuous basis, so most of my experience is going to be made up of that. I just guess it depends on what you want your music to do. Personally, I want mine to enrich life and add to things. I've never seen a negative song do that.

MAB

This morning I openend my e-mail and go this. It is from a songwriter from Chicago Ill. who did one of my workshops a year ago. The conversation was on postitive verses negative songs.His wife had just died of cancer and he was raising four kids on his own. I guess he said it better than I ever could. This is the reason I am like I am.


Marc,

The first night you & I met. You talked about offering a rope of hope in songs for the listener. As the Good Lord would have it, your conversation & words of encouragement were what I needed to hear at an incredible tough time in my life. The honest truth is that each day is tough, but words of encouragement from friends, strangers, and the message in a song can be what gets us through our darkest of days.

I have often thought, why was it that a professional song writer would choose to leave Nashville and all his success there to come and meet with a group of song writers with dreams in Chicago. Maybe just maybe it was the Good Lord sending you to say those words of encouragement that our group needed to hear and maybe the words I truly needed to hear! Words of hope!

While I have a long way to go to write at a professional level, I write lyrically from the well of my soul!

Marc I am attaching the set of lyrics foe the song that you inspired me to write, it is called "Thread of Hope!" Sometimes a thread is all that we have to hold onto, but it is that thread that offers us hope!

I know it may need some work and may even need an overhaul. Let me know your thoughts. I wrote a bridge that I felt worked but then I had a second idea. A friend suggested the second bridge idea as the ending to the song.

The kids are great and make me proud every day! I know their mom looks down from heaven with a smile. The road is going to be bumpy for a while as the Circuit City Store I manage is liquidating with the announcement of the company's bankruptcy. I have been with Circuit City for over 15 years and it is going to be hard to say goodbye to the people I have come to love as family. I will miss them all. Ironically the store I manage opened on the very day my Wonderful & Amazing Wife Debbie was diagnosed with cancer. The store also began the liquidation during the 3rd year anniversary of Debbie's passing. Life can be plain hard!

The waters will be rough but I know in my heart that the Good Lord has a plan and the sun will shine again! A new chapter begins for the kids & I!

Sincerely,
Todd Shultz
Chicago, Ill.


That is what I am about. Touching lives. That is what I do.

MAB

I ask the question is not paying attention to negativity and what goes on around you hiding your head in the sand?

For years songwriters have drawn peoples attention to the bad things and through them positive things have happened. Vietnam was a classic example. Were it not for the protest songs it might still be going on. To say you have not been moved by negative songs and could not care less is IMO throwing away a glorious opportunity to express feelings and make change to peoples lives. Is that not what songwriting is all about.

If you are happy writing about love gone wrong, God is good and happy days living on a farm...then OK.... BUT THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN THAT.

Perhaps one of the reasons why country music and Nashville does little for ME is exactly this attitude.

Big Jim: I like country music because of the story aspect. Yes, there's heartache and disaster, but there's also hope, redemption, determination and perseverance. Even in some of the "pop" country stuff out there, you can hear people writing about what happened yesterday (or what could actually happen) and about what they hope can happen tomorrow.

By saying "negative verse positive", I don't mean everything is sunshine and roses. To me it just means that there's a chance for a better tomorrow. Beats a "no hope at all" song every day of the week.

Kevin

We are told to write what we know, if you know only negative things, how can you write positive things? Is that instruction wrong? Should it be "write from your imagination" not what you know. I write from my imagination anyway, if I had to wait to have experiences to write about it, I'd have very few songs.

Kevin,

You win the cigar. Negative means no hope, no redemption, no positive transformative experience. Negative songs are much harder for an unknown songwriter to get cut, period. Pitching a publisher nothing but downer songs will most likely get that door closed to you. Even if those downer songs are very well written, they will think you can only write easy songs.

Getting a relationship with a publisher is like trying to audition for a gig as a studio guitar player. If you walk in and play four or five slow, easy melodies on the guitar, you won't get the gig.

Hey Mike,
My guess is the most negative song subject was when O.J. Simson
mrdered Nicole and Ron Goldman. One Publisher said he received loads of O.J. songs. None of them went anywhere. My wife and I were traveling when it happened and was in San Antonio Texas.

Who in his right mind would want to write a song about that. It was too gory. Maybe in a hundred years.

While uptempo, Bubbly songs have their place you can't live on that bubble all the time.

Who was it that put out that song, BABY THE RAIN MUST FALL. Glen Yarbourgh, I think.

Anyone who only knows negative things needs psychiatric help. Do you know anyone who does not find beauty somehwere? Someone who does not find joy somehwhere? I don't. Even seriously demented folks find joy in hurting others. So, I don't believe that you would know only negative things. How about your mother? How about children. God's love. Are they negative to you? I don't think you'd say they are.

Of course writers use imagination. But the trick is to "ground" it with a real, hidden, metaphor. Take a story you heard, or one you made up, then find things in your own life that produce the feelings you want people to get from the story. Someone who loves children, but has never been a parent, can write a beautiful, effective song about being a parent...because they love children.

The feelings and communication of the story has to be real and authentic, not the details. Someone who is a parent, but can't stand children, would probably sound disingenuous when writing about being a loving parent.

Find your passion, then write about it, you can make up the details. When you write a story totally foreign to you, give it a hidden metaphor that ties it together.

Here's my old friend Michael Smith singing his wonderful song, "The Dutchman."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLgttYMF4lM&feature=related

It's not a Nashville country song, but is a stunningly beautiful "folk" song.

Michael hadn't been to the Netherlands, only collected some things he knew about the Dutch and put them into a story about someone he did know. The song is about a friend of his who burned his mind out with drugs to the point where it was only the love of his wife that kept him...and his wife...going. It was love that gave them both hope in a hopeless situation. But Mike wrote about something which he didn't know personally, (the Netherlands) using feelings about something he did...his friend's story.

It's kind of easy: you can write anything you want, but the songs that actually sell are mostly positive.

I think the main issue here is that we are using words that are sort of one-dimensional and lifeless: positive and negative.

Instead of saying "Publishers don't want negative songs", it might be better to say that "publishers don't want songs that, after listening to, they want to kill themselves".

Instead of saying "Publishers want positive songs", maybe it's better to say that "Publishers want songs where after listening to them, they cried because something great happened in them" or "Publishers want songs where after listening to them, they stand up, whoop and holler because they want to go out and whip the world".

I think "positive" songs can have something depressing happen in them -- but somehow hope has been re-kindled. If you're alive you probably have hope.

Kevin

It is all about balance as nobody is entirely positive or negative we are all a mixture of both....Yes there are some great negative songs mixed in with the great positive ones....we need them all.
Depends on what you call negative......Without negative songs where would Dylan be? The vast majority of his songs were protest or political observations expressing views about wanting changes. Without them he would just be another folk singer with a voice that sounds like a wasp in a jar.

I also think that writing a good negative song is much harder than a good positive song. Telling a story even an imaginary one is easy compared to expressing an idea, POV or protest.
Is it all about commercialism, writing what sells and telling stories...or is there more to being a songwriter?

Whilst escapist uplifting songs and happy footappers are a must...room must be left for other types of songs that move people and get them thinking.

Ray,

Glenn Yarbrough's "Baby the Rain Must Fall" was actually a mid-to uptempo positive song. You're the only one who said "bubbly" that makes me think of Lawrence Welk. Uptempo positive songs, like "Working Man's Blues," "Truck Driving Man" "You Are My Sunshine," "Love's Gonna Live Here Again," "Jambalaya," "Just Walk On By," "From a Jack to a King," "Six Days on the Road," "Good Hearted Woman," "Wolverton Mounain," "Saginaw Michigan," "It's Such a Pretty World," "The Baptism of Jesse Taylor," "I Walk the Line," "Heart Over Mind," "Cowboy's Sweetheart," "Ring of Fire," "Your Good Girl's Gonna Go Bad," "Bill Monroe for Breakfast," "The Girl on the Billboard," "My Shoes Keep Walking Back to You," or "Move it on Over" don't seem exactly bubbly to me. Some are lighter than others, some are very serious, some are even a little sad. But all are mid to uptempo and positive.

I think one of the points thats missing here is...Marc is saying the best chance of getting in the door is thru a positive song...
not that negative songs don't get picked to go on an album.

There is no dispute that protest/negative/sad songs have their own place.

Marcs point is to get attention in Nashville you need positive songs....negative songs should be held for after you have someones true attention.

It's more than that. Any unknown writer who is interested in getting songs cut by major artists has to "prove" themselves.

How many times over the years have I said that the music business is more interested in the goose than the egg?

Publishers and biz filters want writers who can write hits. They want folks who are easy to get along with, most often folks who can cowrite, and who are versatile. If you hope to get their attention, bring them three mid to uptempo songs with a positive lyric (some can be sad, but they all must be positive) make them remarkably good songs with catchy melodies and memorable hooks. That will get their attention and get them to invite you to bring more. After these publishers or filters think you are a genius (and have told you so) or, better yet, after you have had a few cuts with major artists, then bring your amazingly good, negative song. But don't stop bringing in the positive ones.

Of course, you don't have to believe me. Just pitch negative songs and see how much action you get. But don't pitch too many, or you might get some doors that won't open to you.

Folks not interested in regularly pitching to the majors do not need this advice.

Yes, that is basically what Marc and I have said several times in this thread. I probably like sad, negative songs more than Marc. I know I like protest songs more than him. There are some of both that I love. But he and I are in firm agreement that to get attention, not only in Nashville, as a pop or country songwriter...go positive.

Yes, there are a few different arguments going on, aren't there?

It seems to come down to how we view "positive". I think it has many variations, just as Mike demonstrated with the songs he just listed. Waylon griping about "been a long time leavin' but I'll be a long time gone" has an attitude that makes you want to tap your foot...net result is positive.

Maybe it's better just to remember the "negative" ways we can write, but at our own peril: whiny, slow, self-absorbed, long strumming intro that repeats 12 times before the initial whine, a list of how we were wronged...heck, just remember any open stage you've ever attended, and think about all those downers you heard.

You can be real negative with snappy music...that Dylan reference, "Like a Rolling Stone" is negative, but the music lights right up from the beginning and has all those terrific crescendos. When that song comes on, I think "yeah" instead of "oh no". But then again, that was about a half a century ago...

The Hell you beller Mike, Ha, Ha.
When I was using the term Bubbly, I was talking about the stuff that all came much later than the songs you mention above. All those songs make sense like them or not and were well produced.

Some of those I haven't heard, like Bill Monroe for Breakfast, strange. Haven't heard THE BAPTISIM OF JESSE TAYLOR of which probably is a good approach to making a personal song a main stream song.

I didn't particularly like RING OF FIRE but it was a big hit. Woverton Mountain is probably the weakest song of the bunch and Saginaw Michigan was also weak. Liked Lefty tho. I have an Autograph from Lefty.

So, are you hearing any of these type songs in your current travels? Or the same bubbly stuff that is permating the radio airwaves?

That is assuming you want to get into Nashville in the first place....IMO it is not the centre of the universe and solely responsible for trends and tastes in music. There are other genres and other places to play and pitch songs to. That is also assuming you WANT to try and sell your songs in the first place.

Gents and Ladies:

This is obviously a hot topic for good reason. Mike Dunbar is pointing out something very important - we should be aware of our own attitudes as songwriters, take stock of our body of work.

Songs are emotional, so all human emotions are fair game for songwriters, from the rush of a new crush to crushing heartache. What we feel strongest about makes the strongest material for songs.

I think most of us tend to dwell in the negative because we think it's the hipper place to be. A bitter, jaded attitude seems cooler than a bubbly, optimistic one. Also, we tend to write more slower songs because when you're sitting in a room with an acoustic guitar or a keyboard, it's difficult to keep up the energy level for the hours it takes to wrestle an idea to the ground.

Slower songs tend to be sadder or more somber, more thoughtful, etc. But, ultimately it's about passion. Generally, successful songs have a strong point of view and emotional core - that's what the public relates to first. It's usually not the nuance of the lyric, but more the emotional landscape, the mode, the mood, the vitality. Then the lyric seeps in a phrase at a time.

How else could "Satisfaction" and "Start Me Up" get the same response from Stones fans? One is quite negative, the other positive - but both delivered with the same fervent commitment.

Ultimately, it's a matter of pragmatics. Although all emotions are fair game, during challenging economic times, uplifting, positive music is what always thrives. We can sing about our disappointments and challenges - but, if we don't show a way to overcome those heartbreaks in our song stories, our songs are unlikely to succeed in the present commercial environment.

Plus, I think we have an obligation to shed some light, spread some hope to a challenged world. What d'ya say?

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author Makin' Stuff Up - secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net

I think for the purposes of the debate there should be a definition of negative. Truth be told I see the trashy mass produced up tempo pop songs and manufactured A.Idol type of "stars" as a big negative.

Ray,

I could have used modern songs as an example, but you wouldn't have known them

"Bill Monroe for Breakfast" is a great Tom T. Hall tune. "The Baptism of Jesse Taylor" was written by Dallas Frazier and was a hit for Johnny Russell.

I got to play with Merle Kilgore, he wrote "Ring of Fire" with June Carter. Coincidentally, I also played with Don Wayne. He wrote Saginaw Michigan and Country Bumpkin. I've got a number chart of Saginaw Michigan with Mr. Wayne's autograph. "Wolverton Mountain" sung by Claude King, was, also coincidentally, co-written by Mr. King and Merle Kilgore. What do you have against Merle Kilgore?

I would hardly call Dierks Bentley's "Feel That Fire" which he wrote with the Warren Brothers, "bubbly." Kenny Chesney's "Down That Road" certainly isn't "bubbly," it was written by the great Mac Macanally, and I give Kenny a lot credit for doing the duet with him. No, not George Strait's "River of Love" or John Rich's "Shuttin' Down Detroit." They're not as bubbly as "May the Bird of Paradise Fly Up Your Nose" or "It's Such a Pretty World Today" or "The Happiest Girl in the Whole U.S.A" which, I apologize to my boss Donna Fargo, is pretty darn bubbly.

From several posts back.

Rand, I think you are absolutely right. May I ask, what do you think about an unknown writer pitching negative lyric, sad mood songs?

Rand you make very good points and give good advice. There is room for both negative and positive songs. Getting the proportions correct is maybe another matter. It is up to ALL songwriters to express different experiences feelings and POV as we see fit. The day any of these emotions are suppresed or discouraged is the day music dies.

I do not know much about pitching especially in Nashville..LOL
BUT we should all experiment trying different styles and genres otherwise we stagnate.
Some have accused the industry of stagnation and producing the same old same old......unless we ALL experiment and innovate then it will never change.
If record execs know what they are looking for and insist on a set tried and tested formula then that is what they will always get. I am thankful that there are a few who can see originality and innovation and are prepared to give them a chance. Sadly they are in the minority.

Re a writer pitching a sad negative song...well he can pitch what he likes. If the powers that be are not interested in sad songs on principal then that is a very sad indictment on them rather than on the songwriter.

Leonard Cohen Bob Dylan and a few others did not baulk at the prospect....not to mention the wrist slitting writers of songs like D.I.V.O.R.C.E and Lucille "four hundred children and a crop in the field" the guy had real probs but with all those kids he should have got them harvesting instead of bitching LOL

Mike,
According to my information Saginaw Michigan was a co-write with Bill Anderson. I was under the impression Bill wrote it alone but stand corrected.

I don't have anything against Merle Kilgore, he wrote one of Webb Pierce's early big hits. MORE AND MORE I think. I consider Webb the Artist of the Century.

It has been written a few times that Nashville was trying to part company with Webb's style of whiney nasal type country music. Last I heard Webb has sold some 68 million records and is still in the catalogs. There are not many of the old country artists left. Slim Whitman, Ray Price, Hank Locklin and Jimmy Dickens. Jimmy will probably close the Opry when he goes. A great era for American Music.

A friend and I were discussing the country artists of today versus those of yerterday. I said I would take any 3 from yesterday and beat today's bunch 3 to 1. He said 3 to 0. He was right. True there are a few today that approach the greats of yesterday but I hear none to speak of that I care to buy their CD.

If an artist on a major label today can't sell at least 5 million albums he probably isn't a major artist.

So how does this help an unknown songwriter break into the music biz?

LOL.....we are writers...thats for sure.....

That's pretty funny Jim. Actually the line is "four hungry children and a crop in the field...."

He would REALLY have something to bitch about if he had four hundred children, don't you think?

If you want to talk about depressing check out "Holding Things Together" by Merle Haggard. It may be one of the saddest lyrics ever written, but I love the song and do it once in awhile when someone says, hey Jack, do one of those really sad songs! Believe it or not people do say that sometimes.

Brad Pitt might sing that song someday.

Jack,

Of course they do. I never said they didn't. I love many sad songs myself. Though I would consider "holding things together" a positive trait. Someone prevailing through the tough times, persevering through adversity. Sad, but positive.

Mark,

"Four hungry children and a crop in the field." Wow, after all these years I had that wrong...I didn't know it was "crop."

Yeah,
Three songs I wanted by Cal Smith was THE LORD KNOWS I'M DRINGING, TIME TO PAY THE FIDDLER and COUNTRY BUMKIN. If only they were recording those type songs today!

How does this help an unnnown songwriter break into the music Biz? Keep writing, pitching and working. Sometimes break a rule or two and send to a Major listing even if you are not supposed to. The worst they can do is throw it out.

Last week I sent some songs for LeeAnn Rimes to Curb Records even tho I couldn't get permission. They have been looking for 3 months and still looking. Go ahead be a Pappy Boyington now and then. Be a Black Sheep.

That's what I get for blindly cutting and pasting. I blame it all on the Scotsman.

Sorry Jack it is an old joke but someone has to keep it alive.
Glad you spotted it.
I used to do it in my act along with "Coward of the county" During the lines "They took turns at Becky, n'there was three of them".... with a dumb look on my face I would hold up four fingers when I reached the word "three" it always got a laugh.

"Must hang sally" always gets a laugh as well.

We all know it's "cop in the field".