JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum PAYING FOR CRITIQUES

I think that when the time is right for me,i would pay to have a song professionally critiqued.

I very much appreciate the critiqesthat I get here,but everyone here is just so nice to me(and please,I dont want that to change).
I feel that maybe, for someone who has been writing for a long time,and has built confidence in themselves,it may not be AS important,because after many years of writing,they are pretty much considered professional themselves,because professionalism is based on experience,right?
But as someone who is fairly new to the songwriting industry,I feel that a professional critique may prevent a person ,who may be very naive,from presently themselves as dinner to a hungry pack of wolves.
I realize that there are many people out there,who are going to tell me exactly what I want to hear,and then very happily walk away with my money,when my song was nothing but crap.
I dont want to be foolish,therefore,I would ask around,find out everything that I possibly can,write and re-write until I think my song is the best it could possibly be,post it someplace like JPFS,get critiques from the folks here,and then write,then rewrite some more,and then seek professional help with my song.

I feel happy to know that these types of services exist,because I truly want anything I write to be the best it can be,and I dont want to be foolish in thinking I have something great,when I dont.

Peer reviews are wonderful to have, but it's highly likely they'll be given with more of a supportive tone, rather than an objective critique of your song. It's very important to have that feedback, but I also believe for anyone serious about songwriting, a professional critique here and there is a very good thing!

Professionals in other businesses (pick one - lawyers?) charge a consulation fee. Even doctors charge a consultation fee. Ever wonder why? Their time and their expertise is worth something and it has value. So why, when it comes to getting a professional critique of a song, would someone balk at paying a nominal 20 bucks? There's more to be gained by a professional review than just their opinion on one song. You can file the information away and apply it to future songs you write and it becomes advice that certainly pays for itself.

Get a referral from of your cowriters so you're not blindly paying someone who no one has ever heard of and who may or may not give you a worthwhile opinion. I'm impressed that in this thread alone, two real pros have chimed in, both of whom I'd gladly pay for their opinion on a song I was serious about.

I do that sometimes too. As the 'customer' for these sercives, you are always in charge. And no matter what the critique is saying and who is doing it, Im still in charge of how to develop my song. The whole thing is an interpretive process, where you get help to inform and qualify your own judgement.

At SongU they actually show you the evaluation criteria beforehand, and you get a chance to ask the pro's to put emphasis on any aspect of the song you'd like. That is very useful for me. I use a couple of others as well, but I agree that the good ones are very hard to find, and that you might waste your money on a couple of poor ones before you find the people you click with. But hey, every relationship is like that.

I also think it is not about either-or pro vs. amateur critiques, it is both-and. Both types are very good to get and can be equally helpful, I think. Sometimes I feel the critiques here at JPF are so good, that further critiques won't be neccesary. But the way it most often work for me, is to get critiques from here early in the process, and the pro crits late (before you invest too much time/ money in the damn thing).

My process varies, and once in a while I feel like rebelling and get the song done without critique at all, but I like to have many options available and I do most often make use of them to get my darling songs they best they possibly can. Also if someone is coming on to me wanting me to pay money for critiques, I won't go there. That is violating the trust, as feedback won't be any good to anyone if they are not asking actively for it themselves. This is a basic premise of using critiques, you got to be open and you got to feel recieving feedback can be useful for you, otherwise your money is better spent on new gear! :-)

Thanks for the input Mike and Al.

Douglas

I wonder what kind of critique they got on "Achy breaky heart" or "Who let the dogs out". You can never tell how a song is going to strike the public, they are the ultimate critiquers. If someone hates a particular genre, how can they look past their own prejudice and taste and give an unbiased critique? It is hard to judge a song on it content and how it will be received by the public. You can judge the song structure, tense, rhyme pattern etc, but that is about it. A seasoned writer will do that anyway, but it is like proof reading, no matter how many times you read it, you can still miss mistakes, sometimes fresh eyes will pick it up.

I doubt if I would ever pay someone to have my song evaluated. When I had my so far one and only demo made(certainly do hope more will follow, but can't afford them right now), I let the lyrics stand on their merit. I find it hard trying to critique other people's work since they had their reasons for writing what they did the same as I did. You will see me giving some evaluations but seldom suggesting changes for that reason. The one I did have demoed was a rewrite of something I did about 30 years ago.

Everette,

Achy Breaky Heart was actually cut and released three times before Billy Ray cut it. It was called "Achin Breakin' Heart" and the Warren Brothers, and two others had it on releases. That means that four sets of artists, record label people, promotion departments, producers, A&R people, and various other staff workers, all had to agree it was a pretty strong song. Were they right? I would say the public thought so.
And say what you want, it was a $750,000 investment in promotions that paid back in over 21 million dollars. Without Achy Breaky, you would not have Milley Cyrus. That is around a $200 million family industry. Like it or not, that is the music business.
The key? Just write one of those. Get that out, make a lot of money, and you don't need critiques. The purest form of critiques is if the public embraces it. Most of the critiques people here are talking about is getting it to the public and making sure it is as strong as it can be when it get's there.


MAB

Mike:

You've so succinctly summed this discussion up. (And thanks for your generous and much-appreciated endorsement).

You are very right that some of the best feedback comes from non-songwriting publishers and/or pluggers. They are out there in the trenches every day playing songs for the market, so they have more than an inkling as to what might get the best reception. The ability to offer constructive criticism is a real gift -- and, in my 40 yrs in this biz, I've only met a handful of folks who do it well (some musicians, some not).

However, when it comes to coaching songwriters -- I think you'd agree that some legitimate, hands-on musical and/or lyrical experience is required. A non-architect couldn't offer much help to a student trying to design a building.

As I remarked in a rather lengthy post on this thread -- few writers would question the contribution a great recording engineer makes in making a song sound great. There's seldom any argument about paying for his or her time and expertise. Why would a serious writer have any quarrel with paying for professional coaching that helps a song reach its highest potential? Screenwriters often pay for coverage on their scripts before they re-write. As you so aptly pointed out, Tiger has a swing coach that I'm sure he pays handsomely. The most accomplished tennis pros have coaches, etc. etc...

And, yes -- it's all about the comfort level of the writer. I used to fear feedback. For years, I was very precious about my writing. Now, I thrive on it. Getting some tough love on my songs-in-progress dares me to rise to the occasion and write the best songs I can write.

Best,
Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author - Makin' Stuff Up, secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz

Everette:

You can always find exceptions. That's the wonder of pop music. As I say in my book...

... (if one of your songs) "finds its way onto the playgrounds of America, prepare to spend the rest of your days counting your moolah."

Sure, we'd all love to see little girls on the sidewalk jumping rope to one of our songs.

I know how hard Russ Zavitson battled to get "Achy Breaky" cut. Billy Ray Cyrus, with his mullet and basketball shoes, was the kind of instant cultural phenomenon that only comes along every decade or so. And, "Who Let the Dogs Out" was co-written by Desmond Childs (who has had more than 90 chart songs). If you or I had written those songs, they'd probably be distant, dusty echoes in the bottom of a box.

You can't go by two ditties that break the mold. For every nursery rhyme hit, there are dozens of wonderfully crafted songs. In order for a writer to get through the gate-keepers, he or she needs solid craft. Solid craft often comes from writing, getting feedback and re-writing -- over and over again. There's a lot of luck involved, too -- but, you'd better have your tools sharpened when you stumble upon that four leaf clover.

Rand Bishop
songwriter/producer/author - Makin' Stuff Up, secrets of song-craft and survival in the music-biz
www.makinstuffup.net

Is there that distinct a line between precious and thriving? I am just starting to get my lyrics out there and hoping someone will pick up on them. I often find it hard to critique others' work because I'm sure that they had their reason for writing what they wrote just as I had mine.

Of course, getting started can often be a matter of money. I got one demo cut recently, but because I haven't been working that much ever since I had a fall last year, the cost of making a lot of them is prohibiitive. The one I had done cost me around $180, and when things like rent and food take up so much, there is little left over. Am trying now to find out if there are grants available for such purpose. I know banks are standoffish about loans these days, and I can understand that.

There may be a very fine line here. I knew a lady who had an old-fashioned candy store not far from where I live. She didn't have much of a budget for product, and now her store is closed.

I liked Achy Breaky Heart, mainly because of the beat, but my understanding is that that song was turned down by many artist and was ridiculed by many in the industry, still it was loved by the public. Never did like the Dogs song. Makes you wonder who's at the helm when it comes to choosing music. How can someone listen to 15 to 30 seconds of a song and trash it. Everyone knows that most songs has to grow on you. Rarely do I hear a song and like it from the first listen, but after a few listens it starts to take hold, next thing you are singing along with it, and it is not always the first few seconds that grabs you.

You have to have that exposure. Even after you convince someone to record it, you have to get the DJs to play it enough to get it recognized. I had a song cut, called Precious mother, the local DJs gave it a few spins but not enough, then they dropped it. A female DJ was brought in so the regular DJs could have their vacations. I guess she loved her mother, she played it every day, then people started requesting it, when the DJ got back from his vacation, he had no choice but play it because people were requesting it. Another radio station in our town called looking for the song because people were calling them requesting it, they were given a copy earlier but they had trashed it, now they came begging for another copy.

When you pitch a song it has to go through so many filters and so many taste in music, it is a wonder any songs ever make it to market. From the publisher to the producer to the artist to the label, they all have their likes and dislikes, and some have weird taste in music, how do you make it through. I think if I was an established artist, I'd let my fans have a say in what I recorded. I'd pick the top 100 songs that were pitched to me, songs that I liked and could sing, I'd have a site on the net where I would post the songs and have my fans vote in order what songs were liked best, then choose from the top voted 20. This would give a sample of what my fans liked and they would feel they had some input into my recording.

It would seem that on both sides of the pond there is a huge difference in the music business.

What is accepted as the norm in the USA especially in Nashville and the country scene is totally alien here in the UK.

In the UK most songwriters come from a performance background. They are usually performers first who after years of experience performing live decide to write their own songs and record their own stuff. The exception are the ESTABLISHED people who write for others to record and there are precious few of them. I do not know of anyone who pays for a critique or goes to any writers workshop (do not think such things even exist over here)or pays for song writing classes or coaching. There is no secondary industry that I know of where people make money out of offering to pitch music on others behalf or to provide demos for music to be pitched to someone else or provide music for lyricists, or the whole host of other “services” provided to wannabe songwriters.
On the other side of the pond it would appear that a whole coat tail industry has been formed exploiting wannabe country songwriters. It also seems to be the case that few of these songwriters actually aspire to record their own material preferring to pitch it instead to established acts or just sit on it. This probably accounts for the fact that most country songs follow a very similar pre determined template…as if they all have been written by the same person for the same person who wants many clones of the same songs/subject matter instead of fresh new ideas.

It is also worth noting that country music is not mainstream and is considered a tiny percentage of the music market.

Most American household name country stars are almost complete unknowns here in te UK. I looked at the USA country charts and am ashamed to say I had not even heard of most of the names never mind the songs.

Big Jim,

That is a good estimation from your perspective. It should be noted that the belweather for most artists since the Beatles have been the American Marketplace. They didn't exactly stay in Hamburg, Liverpool and London and be happy with that. They came here. Which is what the majority of people have strived to do for the past many decades. There may have been very huge artists that have been enormous in Europe, and are unheard of in America. And monetarily, up until recently the American market was the one everyone tried for.

Making a comment like all things sound the same can cut both ways. In many opinions the same can be said for European music,in that the majority of it sounds unstructured, random. often indecipherable, and uncommercial in our market, which is why overall it represents a much smaller share than even country. And almost ALL the English and European household names are unknown here. Making jaded observations on anyone else's music scene can cut both ways.

The reason that there are music classes, education, critiques, courses, etc. are that it is one way to learn and build your network. And to do it in a somewhat faster time frame than spending 40 or 50 years learning it and finding that you are too old for any market outside your local region. And if we didn't have a constant stream of people from every other country coming attempting to find how to do it here, I would agree that it probably wouldn't be a anything needed.

The reason people try to find forays into Nashville is because almost all other forms of music are totally artist oriented. That is the artist is the writer, and inner circle controls that market. Here it is different. Particularly in the country market, but other markets as well. Going back to the 1800's, American music had composers and artists. As the music and recording developed over the years, that remained true up until around 1964 when the Beatles, (another English Group) changed the parameters and most rock and pop music became mainstream and artist oriented.

In country music, there were still composers and artists. That line remained there until the late 80's and now has permeated into the mainstream marketplace. Now there are some of them but mostly it is an inside world. And one that is dictated by the marketplace, not the other way around. There are hundreds of thousands of songs released of all kinds, but very few resonate with the public. So the marketplace dicates what is played.

In the 80's and 90's, Nashville experienced a huge boom of people coming to this town seeking success in musical endevors. In 92, the entire money generated by the country music industry was around $210 million. In 1994, the total money was around $2 Billion. That was primarily fueled by Garth Brooks who sold more records in a decade than any one in history.

That created a ripple effect of people coming to Nashville seeking fame and fortune, just like the gold rushes of old. As a result of that a demand was created for a secondary market of people seeking to learn about the industry, the craft, etc. The majority of teachers, people that do paid critiques, workshops, write books, do DVD's, etc. are people that have had successful careers in the industry (you have to have had some success to get public demand for your product)and are sought out high and low for advice and yes, paid critiques. When you are barraged by requests, e-mails, phone calls, asked in public for help continually, often you respond in that way.

People seeking paid critiques are doing just that, and almost every writer in the past 25 years that have come into this town have done some form of just that, particularly in the past 15
it has grown expotentially. It is a way to get known, and learn the rules the exact same way that for hundreds of years people apprenticed at a trade. Interns come out of colleges and work for publishing and record companies and are paid nothing or very low wages until they are able to "stand on their own two legs."

So far from the nonsense of an industry that "exploits" songwriters, it is actually one way to get an education, and is obviously not required from anybody. But to insult someone for having that desire to find their own way in something different than you might feel is shortsided and somewhat ignorant of facts in a different market.

This is not to start an international incident. I don't think anyone in this country (at least not if I have anything to do with it) ridicules or denigrates someone from another country in how they do things. People come here from England, Scottland, Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Australia, and every other country around the globe trying to find out how to make their music applicable to OUR market. And in many cases, what they do there doesn't relate here AND vice versa. I wouldn't presume to come into some pub or concert hall there and believe that I can show them how to do their music better. I would never be that arrogant.

But when people come here, try to integrate their music here, try to interact with the community here, there are ways that they can do it in a reasonable time frame. And often when you are on a limited work visa, and have to be back in a very short amount of time,you don't have months and years to find out how things work, and wait around till you luck up into success or wait upon the "Good music fairy" to float down,teach you to write and promote your music.

Some of that has to do with paid critiques. Because that might not work for you is irrelevant to other people's journey.
And to ridicule them and tell them they are some kind of lesser human being for being willing to pay for professional adivice is professionally short sided. What works for one person might not work for another and vice versa.

There is a reason there are forums like this. People are looking for other people with similar ideas, thoughts and journeys. They are trying to find a way through the myriad of obstacles which are the modern music scene. Different people have differing perspectives on things. What may work for a writer/artist will be very different than what works for a pure writer. The elements of making something work in the UK, Australia, or other areas will differ from market to market. And all opinions and methods are valid. Some work better in some areas than others.
I just don't think it adds anything to the discussion to denigrate something that some people find great value in just because it doesn't work for one's self. A pretty big world out there. Lots of different approaches. This one works here more than it fails.

MAB

Hmmm..I think the ol' adage "You Get What You Pay For" kinda depends on WHO ya Pay. So...it pays to know who you're paying, WHO have they coached on a Hit, Moneymaking Song lately?

IF they can give ya References..& for-sure, there are Many Who Can..& you do a bitta "Askin'-Around"..AND you've got the Disposable Income to dispose OF...what have you got to lose besides The Income?

You CAN, of course, in a bigger city, join NSAI..or attend events like PineyFest..where Visiting Pros do Free Critiques on-occasion. Befriend some Local DJs, too...they've got their finger on the pulse..ya might even get Local AIRPLAY back outta THOSE free critiques.

I've yet to do a Paid Critique..but then I've yet to collect a Big Musical Paycheck, too..so what do I know? I DO know that Major HITS like "Louie-Louie" would probably NEVER get past the All-Knowing-Paid-Critic..but that hit occurred when DJ's picked their OWN Material, not the PDs of Today.

I probably WILL do some paid crits..when I have more disposable imcome. Marc's right..why WAIT for "The Good Music Fairy" when ya can skip the Movie & Dinner for a Weekend & get a Good GRAB on what you've been doin' WRONG & get a Leg-Up on what ya might oughta Do Right this or NEXT Song. Much of this "Craft" Aspect IS Teachable..though if ya haven't got any Raw Talent, hopefully Your Mentor WILL tell ya so. You'll be needin' BOTH to succeed at the Music Biz.

And THEN ya can compete with all the "Oldies" that Radio currently loves to play....

Best Wishes/Big Hugs/Thanks Marc..I just GOTTA Pen "The Good Music Fairy" Now...what a Hoot of a Hook!

Stan

PS: It's Done..& over at Board 3..enjoy!

I have no problem paying for critiques from people/services I trust, and the reason I'm willing to pay them for their feedback is that they are "in" the industry and look at my work the way the industry will -- and this is an extremely important perspective for me to get if I want to be successful at providing commercially viable music.

I also very very much value the feedback available to me from other songwriters/composers on forums such as these.

For example, I might write a song, make a worktape, get some feedback on a forum. Then I might rewrite using some of those thoughts. Then I make a new worktape and get a pro critique (depending on the genre) from Pat Luboff or John Braheny, etc. Then I might be ready to spend the time (and money) to make a demo.

It's never black and white. I don't see the problem in paying a few bucks for a pro opinion on commercial viability. I do see the problem with paying to demo songs that will go nowhere.

And no, it's never an exact science. But I prefer to use the resources available to help me assess the potential.

Guys,

The main thing I think myself and Rand and others are trying to point out here, is that the paid critique is only ONE part of an overall strategy when it comes to this or other music area. A critique is also about things other than just that song. As I detailed in an earlier post, sometimes songs might be coming in on the crest of a wave of a glut of the same type of songs, such as the economy, and the writer needs to be aware of that. If you are not in the forefront of a movement, you are a day late and a dollar short. So all of this are about things aside from just the song itself, there are other issues as well.
Some of the people who do online or personal critiques do so for a level check as much as just that song. They might need suggestions before they spend money on demos. It is simply a way to get another set of ears just like JPF and other sites, which should be part of a process as well.
For those who wish to find out about Nashville, there are ways to do that, some of them cost money and some don't. But I always stress that it is only part of an overall strategy.

On Sunday-Wed. of this week I had a client who came to do one of my three day "tours" of Nashville. He played on a networking party (Guitar Pull) on Sunday (doing songs we had written together) and recieved 8 invitations for co-writing. On Monday morning we went into the studio where he put lead vocals down on two full demos we had already done the music to, one of which is a wedding present for his future wife and will be used as presents for guests at his wedding. The other is a song for his Mother. Both will be part of his CD that he will do next week. Both are being pitched by my song plugger here.
Monday afternoon we wrote another song with a friend/writer here in Nashville. My client and friend is a recovering Alcoholic (something I didn't know at first) and we wrote something he intends to record and play for his AA group.
Monday night he played on a writers show, recieved 5 more invitations to co-write and the host offered to put him on any one of five shows a week he does in town.
Tuesday we wrote a song in the morning with a new writer artist in town who has connections with a pubishing company here in town and will play the song we wrote for them. I will get it to my song plugger as well. In the afternoon we wrote another song, which was a "Texas Road" type song that he did not have in his catalogue, a more "live" type song.
Tuesday night he played another writers show, and recieved three more requests to co-write. The host invited him back "Anytime he is in town."
He left Wed.

That is what it is like to try and really interact with a community like this. Now he could have done like many people, attended seminars, go to shows, open mics, stand in the back ground, and get nothing accomplished. This is his fifth trip and every one has been pretty much the same. At the same time another friend of mine decided to do it on his own. he stayed with a couple of writers for five days and at the end of those days they had finally come up with a "Title to write."

People pay for critiques, attend workshops, seminars, or take on private counciling for a reason. To find ways to up the level of their game. They read books like Rand's because he is a pro who has "earned his stripes in not just this, but other markets." He has listed on another post of a song he had some involvement critiquing that took the respective writers to an entirely different level in their career that they might not have reached had he not taken that interest. I am sure in some way or form he was compensated for that effort, at least I hope so. He deserves every penny.
People do things like Song U. and other online courses because they might not be able to have the environment around them in their area that reinforces what they need musically. They view forums like this in an effort to interact with various musical communities. And not everyone is a performer and need to interact with performers. Those areas and more help them do just that.
What works for one person might not work for another person. But it is ALL voluntary. There are ways to get personal references on anyone they deal with, be it a teacher, writer, publisher, song plugger, record company, online company. Writers are pretty smart and tend to do a lot of research. There are other communities in the world that operate with different rules ettcates and operating procedures. There is not one right or wrong way. Only what makes sense time and monetarily, for the individuals involved.

MAB

Hi Marc My post was not meant to be insulting. I was just stating the differences between how many this side of the pond see things and how our US friends differ. Much of what you say is true. However the biggest is not always best despite you claiming it to be. Not all musicians are mercenaries who only think dollars. Nashville does generate huge sales and does attract folk from all over as it is the centre for Country music. Some who are not of that genre view Nashville musically as unimportant to them personally just as some Nashville people see the outside world musically as pretty unimportant to them.

Wether you like it or not music has always been a place to exploit and a heck of a lot are exploited. Fact..... there is a huge marketplace for these IMO dubious services. Some can be described as positive but there remains a huge proportion who do rip off wannabe songwriters whether intentionally as a scam or as a coat tail industry. It is also a fact that many people welcome being ripped off and accept it as a part of the learning process and a necessary way to progress.

Perhaps if I lived in Nashville or even other parts of the USA I would see or think different but I live in UK where we do things different.

Re all the people flocking to the US to enter the HUGE music industry there. That is a fact. That said however few British acts will aim at the closed country shop. Most do not produce that kind of music anyway prefering to try to promote their own original music styles.
The Beatles did come to America to promote themselves, by that time they were internationally famous anyway and the Nashville country music scene was not exactly the marketplace they were aiming at.

Lastly you scoff at certain Brit and Euro music for not being very good UNSTRUCTURED RANDOM AND UNDECIPHERABLE well so do I BUT it DOES offer variety and scope for individualism and is not thrown in the bin because it does not comply with the rigid preset templates of country music.... same old tired stories, chord structures, tempos and arrangements.

... munches popcorn ...

Well Kevin when someone describes Euro music in such a way especially when they are of a country persuasion it is a HUGE case of the pot calling the kettle black and deserves a sharp rebuttle.

I like considering the trends -- I looked at this when I started posting on the boards seeing so many interested in pursuing the country market dream..

I think these statistics speak loudly in regard to what the MUSIC market might be looking for in general... I thin pop/folk is alternative?

Well....what does "alternative" consist of? Folk, Singer/Songwriter, Pop, Rock, Electronica, Dance, etc.? If "Alternative" is just everything that doesn't fall into the other categories, the table doesn't give a clear enough picture of all those smaller genres.

The table does tell me that country may be popular, R&B is where it's at. It also tells me that other than classical, the trend everywhere is DOWN.

Hi Z - yes you read it the same as I do

interesting too are the ones that have stayed stable

Country may be viewed within the country market as the best exemplar of songwriting, and outside of the country market as a regional anomaly. That's kind of neither-here-nor-there in terms of the discussion. Country music is certainly a market, people buy it, and some people make money producing it.

I think it's fair to say (and to agree with Marc and others) that Country is one of the only genres where the writer sells to a publisher and the publisher pitches to an artist. It's the old way of doing business in most of the music biz ("You played your song for a publisher and he'd tell you whether Connie Francis would record it"), but (again to agree) most artists are doing the whole thing themselves.

Because they can. Because it's cheaper. Because it gives them more control. Because it's expected.

For many artists in the singer/songwriter field, or for small-bands-of-artistic-integrity, the fan base *expects* that the artist/band is writing their own work, sharing their own thoughts and emotions. It can feel like cheating when an artist sings someone else's words. Sure, you will find some who will be open to co-writing, or to covering a song, but you're swimming upstream.

Why are you writing? If you're writing for yourself, get out and sing your songs and see what the audience says. If you want to write for a market like Nashville, getting a pro critique, from someone who has seen thousands of songs and knows what is most likely to work, seems smart. At least until you develop your own internal gyroscope.

But know what is being critiqued. Someone above (I think Rand) said he was careful to find out what kind of song the writer was *trying* to write, and crit accordingly. But the NSAI crits are focused on marketability, not whether you have achieved an artistic triumph. And critiques that come from contests will often be slanted towards "storytelling" or "plainspoken" songs.

(I got two lyric critiques back from the Great American Song Contest recently, obviously from the same reviewer who had them side by side because he compared them. One song was a plain-spoken country lyric, with characters and a situation; the other song was more lyrical, in which I worked hard to create some poetic images and a sense of mystery. The first song made the top five in the Lyric category -- the other one was given low marks for "clarity"

A pro critique, IMHO, can be helpful to get a better sense of whether someone in the business would be interested in the song.

Jim,

I would really like you or any one here to go back and ever find one of my posts, my comments or anything I have ever said that I say Nashville is the only place to go, the biggest this or that of anything. I said Garth Brooks in the 90's sold more records in a decade than any artist. That is a fact.
I preface every single thing I say in the terms "This is for people interested in this or this market. I speak from this market. I live here. I don't ridicule any other market, I don't make fun of it, I don't belittle it, until it is done to me.
It is one market.People come here, people on these forums ask about and in many cases interact with. This thread is about a certain aspect of that. Paid critiques and ancilary issues, like people that offer opinions and their qualifications to do so. There are people who believe that is not worth it,those that do. Rand Bishop, Mike Dunbar and I offer a perspective as people who are paid to do just that.
Music is indeed done differently in different areas. And my experience and comments are from experience from people in other parts of the country coming here. I have said that over and over, and yet it seems to be ignored.
I respect what you do, how you do it and your opinions. But there are others as well and those have validity as well. We are talking specifics here. yes, there are people who do exploitation and who are exploited in every walk of life. Some of us dedicate our lives frankly to not to that and help people understand the totality of what they are trying to do. That is actually the point of paid critiques. To help educate people as to the genre they are in, eticates and procedures involved.

MAB

Marc,

Just for the record, I don't offer critiques for a fee. Sometimes I will freely critique when asked or when it moves me to do so. I do, though, think that paid critiques are a valid tool for the songwriter.

It is always interesting to see how post and points/question develope from one thing to another.

This, again, is one of them.

The argument concerning the original post seems to be split down the middle, and know what? I expected that.

I was coming from my train of thought on the subjusct and was curious to see who shared it and who didn't and the whys around it.

Will I ever use such services? Who knows. Have I been convinced of the importance of such services? I think I just might be leaning to a possible yes. LOL!

Anywho. Once again I thank those who took the time to drop in and voice their opinions, for free (I just had to say that)and I personally came out learning something.

Thanks Again.

Douglas

JM your US stats though interesting do not show a clear enough picture of the spread in the different genres. I would also state that IMO the British or European stats would be completeley different from these with Christian/gospel, folk and Country way way down at the bottom of the league table.

Please note that my comments are just opinions and they are not meant to insult.. I just state that some of us have different objectives, aspirations, goals, likes and dislikes and musical tastes are different in different locations and areas.

Marc I understand that you, like me, are only offering help and advice and that you have different musical tastes from myself.
That said you must take this on board.... that your way only applies to your genre and area of expertise namely Nashville and Country music. Whilst to you Nashville and Country music is the be all and end all other places have a different set up and a very different taste in music. Whilst you may not mean it you do come over as someone who thinks they know the proper way to do things and other opinions are somewhat less valid. Whilst this may be OK for country people whos centre of the universe is Nashville this may not apply to other music genres and geographical locations.

Hi Jim


they are not MY statistics.........

but you Can remove the numbers from one category - like country -- and add all the Others UP to comparitively SEE -- that country IS a small piece of the Whole Pie

Hi JM I see what you are saying.

To go even further the UK stats would show that some popular genres in the US like Country and Christian/Gospel barely register as a percentage of sales.

Back to the original question I would never use a pay critique service for the following reasons.
1. I am an experienced writer and have many well respected friends in the business who would gladly provide constructive criticisms that I can trust for free.
2. Most of the critique services operate in music genres that do not relate to my style of music and writing and are not aquainted with the music scene in my area. Therefore the opinions would not be worth much.

I thought I'd take a little break from recording my album to interject my perspective on this matter.

All feedback you get on your song is helpful, but you always have to take into account who is giving it and to what extent it is "compromised"

If you get feedback from your auntie, you have to take into account she is your auntie and is going to look upon your work in a more favourable fashion, which compromise the integrity of the feedback. If you pay someone, it may be compromised because the pro-critic person wants you to pay them again in the future, so will tell you a couple of things to improve your average song, to make it slightly less average.

I personally wouldn't ever pay anyone to critic my songs, because I understand the game I'm playing better than they do, so I don't see how they could help me. When getting feedback on sites like this, I'm interested most in the areas I know are my weakness. Mixing, drums, bass etc. I think if you are a serious songwriter, you have to have some areas where you have total certainty about the quality of your work - be that lyrics, vocals, melodies or whatever. If you're putting songs up for feedback uncertain of anything at all, then you're not in control of the game your playing, and your songs probably aren't that good.

If I were gonna pay someone to critic my songs, I'd expect comments on every aspect of the song, melody, harmonies, quality of the mix. But it seems to be the case when people pay for a pro critic that the lyrics are usually pinpointed as a weakness. This is because lyrics are the easiest thing to critic, even a layman can make suggestions to change the lyrics. But the reality is, most average songs fail on a musical level, and that's much harder to quantify and rectify and takes a far higher level of skill. And making a few changes to lyrics rarely does anything than make an average song slightly less average.

Lucian

Man,

It is really true that Europeans and Americans are separated by a common language. I don't know how to say it any clearer than thirteen or fourteen times saying the same thing. What I am talking about is SPECIFIC to country and Nashville. I can't really understand what you are missing in that comment. I have explained background in music history, why people come to Nashville, why paid critiques in addition to other workshops, seminars, etc. work for someone and don't work for someone else. I just don't really see the sense in rehashing what has been said over and over.
Don't pay for anything if it doesn't apply to you. Write what you want. Play what you want. Anyway, any how that you want. But try to be more clear in your songs than you apparently are in these posts. I have never seen anyone miss a point so clearly stated over and over.
Nashville is NOT the Primary source of songwriting universe. It is ONE STOP and one that SOME people find interesting. If it does not interest you, DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THOSE OPINONS ARE! Scroll down past them. Find the ones you agree with. Move on to another subject. Write some songs. LOL!
Man, this is not brain surgery. Quit taking everything so serious. Won't be too long and I can assure you most all of us going to be dead and these songs will not ever be heard again. So lighten up.

MAB

Hello all,

I didn't mean by my post from way back I didn't think there was no value in paid critiques. I think there are. Even John Grisham and Steve King had editors.

I had some songs critiqued a few years ago and two different people liked the same song best of what they heard. I was a big believer that a different song was the most commercial thing I ever wrote. It bothered me they liked the one I didn't like as much.

This brings me to a joke Barbara Cloyd told at one of her get-togethers. It was a "how many [insert group] does it take to change a lightbulb?" She got to "how many [songwriters] does it take to change a lightbulb?" The answer was "none...it doesn't need to be changed." That's how a lot of us feel when we do get critiqued, paid or not. My nature is such that I would want to argue with Craig Wiseman or Tim McGraw if they said they'd publish/record a song if I'd only change one little thing. I have to fight that feeling and listening to critics helps me with perspective.

Obama and Bush and every other president has advisors and doctors get advice from other docs at times so there is value in critiques. A critique from me is not as valuable as a critique from Marc Barnette. Some are at a level where they might get more out of a critique from me and then later would get more out of a critique from Marc. It's those songwriting plateaus.

Another thing about critiques is this IMO: If we go in and write as good as Susan Boyle sang, we'll blow them out of the water.

Hi Marc I agree with what you say. It is EXACTLY what I have been saying all along. Your expertise and knowledge of Nashville and the country scene was never in question. Your advice is always accurate and valuable. That said it is not always appropriate to other kinds of music or geographical areas.
Coutry music and Nashville, in particular, has its own set up, rules and different ways of working. Sometimes these are completely different and contradictory to other types of music.

All I am saying is that songwriters and performers from other genres and geographical areas should take these differences into considersation when reading your posts and acting on your advice. I would also hope that you also take these considerations into account before giving advice.

Hey Big jim,

I'm sure trying. I try to preferance almost every post I do that I am talking about my own experiences and realm of expertise (or alleged expertise). I really believe almost all of us are on the same page here. Although the pages get longer as we go.
This site, as well as others should underline the different perspectives on anyone subject. For anything that has to do with creative elements, there are a lot of issues, rules, etticates, involved. It is never simple, never black and white, never easy.
Everyone has to look at a lot of sides of anything and then decide what works for them. I just don't want people to shut off something that might help them because someone says to do it or says not to do it. The same can be said for critiques themselves.
Perspective is the key. Get the information. Get opinions. Be careful how you spend money. Consider the source. Investigate the source. If you are interested in paid critiques, find out who is doing the critiquing. Find out their track record. Find out other people who have used them and their experiences. Then take that as a part of a larger process, Do that on your songs, your approach, your co-writes, your demos, your marketing, your follow through. Take your time, be careful and consult with your friends.

MAB

MAB

Hi Marc & Freinds

Not that anyone or anything in particular is frustrating you on this or other certain subjects. But I totally understand the frustration when trying to explain or convey a point or message.
Everything I'm saying here is just an observation. The only thing my instincts know better than music is "people" lol..

It's all about people and there nature. For example for me I KNOW I can ramble on & go off the subject while trying to make a point. When somebody is looking for a specific answer and they are focused on pretty much the one goal or thing they want to know it's a bit easier of course. I will start throwing in the "other side" of the coin or perspective from another view. This can be confusing to some. So sometimes I'll try NOT to do that..

HOWEVER almost every time I don't do it someone brings it up in one way or another. LOL We can try to stay focused and on point but there's always the curve ball. Everytime time I mention "making this more marketable" someone hits me with
"Well it's all about the LOVE of it" why do you care so much about marketing?" What are you a sellout? lol

Then I make the coolest fun freaking music with NOTHING to do with pitching anything or marketing and I get.. "What is that? A publisher isn't gonna listen to that for more than 15 seconds" It don't make sense, it's too long it's etc... etc...

Song-writing but mostly music in general is so wide open & subjective that most people (artistic mainly) will look at ANY subject from there personal angle only. How it applies to them more than how they can apply themselves to it.

Song-writing but mostly music in general is so wide open & subjective that most people (artistic mainly) will look at ANY subject from there personal angle only. How it applies to them more than how they can apply themselves to it.

And to many people for whatever reasons that's how Nashville feels to them.
Almost like Fantasy Island :)and Mr. Rork has the rule book LOL...
Even though it's very live & breathe music it still plays out like a system, like other systems.

Read all the songwriters books
Go to seminars
Take classes.
Make your songs like this or that (Very specific)
Don't submit ballads (we have enough) but they keep doing them though lol
Get critiques
Find and hire a song plugger
Try to move to or near Nashville
And the list goes on & on


Now I agree with all of that... And it makes total sense to me. I have applied MUCH of that to my personal resume and experiences. Even if it's not my world it totally relates and is relevant to it. It's like if your were getting into ANYTHING , say parachuting, a degree in something, a license to cut hair, whatever..
You do research and the PROCESS and procedures you follow are laid out for you... If you want to make Country Music your LIFE don't move to Alaska lol...

So here you go explaining that WHOLE thing to someone and after wards they say
Well I want to play cello in the Philharmonic someday.. Or "well I write songs for myself" I play alternative rock and non of this pertains to that"

When someone asks me about TAXI I say -
1-It's good to join Taxi for this & that...
2-This is the slight problems I have with it after joining myself in the past.

But then the best answer of all is simple .. WHO do you submit your music to every week?
NOBODY? Well why not make it somebody!

Goals determine EVERYTHING! every step you take and the direction you go.

Great topics for conversation,but everyone should try to remember if it's not applying to you, (CAREER WISE) don't waste too much time with it. Stay focused
and best of luck to all....

“Pay for Critique”??????????

Y?

Sam,
Yep. Paying for critiques before I moved to Nashville probably saved me around $35,000 and five years of wasted time. The three people I worked with for several months before I moved saved what I would have spent on recording very bad songs done the very wrong way for the very wrong market.
So yeah, a little prevention up front for me, changed everything I did. That came through paid song critiques.Of course that was around 22 years ago. The Music Industry has probably gotten easier since then.

MAB

Big Jim,

What's this $30 evaluation stuff I hear about? My song evaluations are $5. Basically for file management costs. I have a TON of repeat business so it's helping someone. (I think the price is pretty competitive too...:>0) But if it's not right for you, that's cool.

However, if I'm a pro bricklayer, the FIRST PERSON I'LL ASK to comment on my work will be another pro bricklayer. I'm of the mind that there's always something new to learn...just because I can write a song doesn't mean I don't need help from anyone. I have so much more to learn...and that's how I learn.

I'll have somebody send me a song that they love, that their friends love, that their neighbors love, that their peers love, that they've played out and found to get great responses, etc. etc., and now they want to know if the song is right to get cut in Nashville. Sometimes the song is one I dig but I know there's something in there that has to be changed before pitching here.

People that get that kind of info are paying for something they can't get on their own...someone in Michigan finding out what todays's trends are in Nashville and how they apply to their song.

I pay for services I either can't get or don't have time to get on my own. Silly for me to take a year studying the L.A. market before pitching when I can just send my stuff out there and get a pro critique and find out that way. But it's not a crap shoot...ya gotta know who you're getting your info from.

bill
www.writethismusic.com

Thanks Mike. Great point.

I haven't had the number of cuts some of the others have who are out there by any stretch. But I'm told that I'm an excellent teacher of Nashville songwriting. I don't say that to bragg...I just have a knack for it, and I love it. I think about it all the time.

I have my finger on the pulse in Nashville and I write, co-write, produce, demo, whatever, constantly. I didn't offer song advice until I knew I really understood how to write Nashville songs (not that I'm 'there'...nobody is). That took a long time...12 years of being here...not even counting the years before I came here.

Often times people are reluctant to enter into any kind of consult with someone unless they've had had a Tim McGraw cut. I know people who've written Tim McGraw cuts that don't teach well and don't give very good feedback on songs (2 people come to mind). Not all because they can't... more because they're not interested. SOme poeople will still go to someone with a 'name' in their past though...gives them confidence. Others want to tell their friends they're working with 'names'. All kinds of reasons.

SOme are looking for sound advice. Some are looking to find what to do next. SOme are looking for mercyless critiques. Some are looking for technical info. Some (many) are looking for affirmation.

In the end people usually find exactly what they're looking for and get exactly what they want.


Bill Renfrew
www.writethismusic.com

Bill $5 is cheap and am sure is great value for money. However it is a bit pointless me asking you for a critique for one of my euro rock songs or you asking me to critique a country song aimed at a Nashville audienece. Horses for courses and all that is my point.

I have a team of trusted folk mostly fellow musicians who I run stuff past.

I do think the bricklayer analogy is a particularily good one. A good competent bricklayer will not need another opinion as he has worked to a plan and followed the specs and standards.
He can check his own work with a plumbline tape measure and spirit level. No need to ask another bricklayer to confirm what he already knows. A novice apprentice may however benefit from a once over from an experienced tradesman who would spot errors and give tips.

That said songwriting cannot be assesed in the same way. It is ART and not sold by the yard nor measured with a tapemeasure or spirit level. There are too many different styles, standards and variables.

Most of my musician pals write in many completely different styles and ways and aim at different audiences. Any benefits from a paid critique are of a limited value.

My original point is that for some paying for a critique can be a great benefit but for others a complete waste of time and money.

One thing is for sure we are never too old or experienced to learn and should take every opportunity to advance our skill and knowledge.

I am a bowler (lawn bowls) I have been over forty years and am considered to be pretty good at it having won many championships and achievd high status as a national coach. That said I learn something new every game I play or watch.

Over the past several years I've had 87 critiques from SongU coaches, at least 12 a year from NSAI coaches, and a few from people like Jason Blume and Barbara Cloyd. I've also had phone coaching with Rick Beresford. So I believe in paying to improve my craft, which is what all these critiques have done. It is like taking a course in songwriting with individual help. I have also received helpful advice from JPF folks, and not so helpful advice as well. Not all paid critiques have been extremely helpful either. Most--not all--but most of us on here are amateurs, and professionals who have had #1 hits or been in the business for years often know things about the market that we amateurs don't. A lot of it has to do with what NOT to pursue in terms of an idea. I would much rather receive advice from someone who has a pulse on the market and pay for it than receive kudos from someone I don't pay. Although it's not true in each case "you get what you pay for", I'm an advocate of professional paid critiques.

Jim,

I agree with what you say. People trying to break into a new market can benefit from people in that market, but people who already have their team in place (to coin a Mike Dunbar concept) may not benefit to the same degree.

bill
www.writethismusic.com

For a lot of folks, songwriting is a hobby. I'm sure most all of us would like to have a star record our song and it be heard by millions of people. There probably isn't anyone in here for whom that will happen unless they move to Nashville. Lots of hobbyists spend lots of money on all sorts of stuff--that's why they celebrities get rich off endorsements. Nothing wrong with paid critiques.

Pay me $15 and I'll critique your song. Pay me $25 and I'll tell you whatever you want to hear. That's because I don't know what will be a hit. I once said "that boy won't ever amount to anything." That boy was named Randy Ray. The first song he released as a single bombed but a year later it was released a second time and wound up being the CMA Song Of The Year.