JPF Home Page Forums Sara Palin quits

Doug,

I see the same thought over and over again. What you don't take into account is that without government some would live totally evil lives. The reason most decent governments were formed was to keep that from happenning. Taxes are merely a form of government paying for programs for the good of the people, at least that's what they should be. Today they have taken forms our forefathers would abhor. You are saying you don't want to be forced to pay taxes for any reason. Would you give them voluntarily to pay for the programs needed to protect the innocent? How would you feel about the people that refused to pay? Would you be happy seeing your neighbor living a life of luxury you couldn't afford because you were paying his share?

If taxes weren't taken at the point of a gun would people pay? Helping others is a voluntarily choice of an individual. Knock on my door and ask for food and I'd feed you. Come to my door with a gun to take my food and see what happens.

The evil done by government is multitudes more than any good accomplished by government. Individuals murder by ones and twos, governments murder by the thousands and millions.

The majority of the people pay taxes not because someone is at their door with a gun, but because they know it is their duty. The laws, and the guns, are there for those who really don't care about others.
P.S. I was a breath or two away from being on that wall and I am still a believer in: "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing."!

I do not question that taxes are necessary, they are. I just question which taxes are good and which are not.

Nobody likes paying taxes. Nothing worse than seeing other people benefit from YOUR money, unless of course you are the one who needs education, who gets invaded, who gets sick, or robbed, or unemployed or a whole host of other things taxes pay for. That is one side of things we forget about...that someday we may need those services. We also forget about the mundane day to day services and other things that benefit us that our money is being used for. It is swings and roundabouts.

It is however up to us to determine how our money is used and how much of it is used...that involves talking to politicians and politicians listening. That is called democracy.

democracy = mob rule
51% of the people think that all guitar players should be hung so that's the law.

Now that is one law that I could go along with. Could we also include banjo players and drummers.

I agree, but all governments are in power because God wants them there, and we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's. Taxes are a way of distributing wealth for the betterment of all. All are taxes at the same rate for their earnings or profit to a certain level, after they pass that level, they pay a higher rate, but never 100%. A person earning $20,000.00 a year needs every cent to live on, someone making ten million can live quite comfortably on what is left, even if he is taxed at 50%.

While I do agree that taxes are a necessary evil, I don't agree that they are in any way fair, especially in this country today. One of the most unfair aspects of it is that people are rewarded by tax breaks for having children. Why should I have to pay higher taxes to educate and pay for the healthcare of children someone else wants to have? I believe once you have two children the exemptions should end there. If anyone wants more they should be ready, and willing to pay their education and healthcare costs out of their own pockets. I also don't believe my taxes should go to support and care for people in this country illegally. If the businessmen or the rich want to bring them here to do their work, let them pay for their care, not me!

So you think it's ok to take a gun and rob from the guy earning ten million.

Not to rob, maim, or kill him, but to get him to pay his share; in a word, yes! For the decent people you don't have to ask more than once. For the others, just desserts. I am not happy paying taxes I don't think are really fair, but I am even less happy with people who try to get out of paying their share. When they don't pay it only increases the amount decent people have to.

Why is one persons share more than another persons share? Taxes if they exist should be per capita with each man woman and child taxed the same amount. If you have to have a tax system that is the only fair system.

So
Based on these assumptions it is OK for a person earning $20,000 per year to pay some taxes.
Let's just say they would pay 15%. That would be $3,000.

That $3,000 should pay for what? Let's say they have one child.
Would the $3,000 pay for education?
Healthcare
Paving the road and sidewalk used to get the kid to school
How about the Military to defend his/her right to education
Police dept?
fire dept?
How about water to the house, the sewers?

I could go on but I think you get the idea. That person would be getting far more from his $3000,00 taxes than he is paying for.

Now we have successful business man who makes that $10 Million, he also has one child
Shouldn't he pay an equal share. Say 15%
That would be $1.5 Million in taxes.

Would that $1.5 Million cover the cost of the same services $20 grand guy gets.
I would think so, and then some. the $10 Million guy is likely paying for several of the $20 grand guys.

That would be fair IMHO.
Unfortunately nearly all of our law makers fall in the $10 Million class (probably not $10 Million but very wealthy) or they have lobbyists pressuring them and there is no way they will ever agree to a flat tax. Not when they can get away with paying far less.

The millionaire is earning obscene money which should have been divided more equally amongst the $20,000 guys and then some. No individual no matter how hard he works or what sacrifices he has made is worth that kind of money whilst others work for fractions of it. That is capitalism at its worst

How can you say something like that.
An individual can earn what ever he can earn and anothers earnings have no effect on it. A person is worth what ever he get paid.

It is easy to say. I am a socialist and totally against the unfair distribution of wealth. How can you say that a greedy profiteer can justify taking a salary of millions whilst the workforce he controls earn a pittance? The problem with capitalism is that too few are paid their worth. There are far too many grossly overpaid people and far too many grossly underpaid people. One mans greed is anothers suffering. It shocks me to think that people who are being exploited can actually condone, encourage and even admire such corruption.

But capitalism is based on the idea that people want to, and will, work harder to better their situation in life. America is founded on the idea that anyone who wants to work hard can succeed. It was true then, and it still is today. If you want me to feel sorry for someone who wants me to support, or help support them because they want to take it easy; don't bother. I do not admire greed, or envy others with more money than me. If I wanted to put more effort into it, I could have had more too. I chose not to. The worst problem with socialism is that it rewards laziness. Socialist policies, from the time they made welare long term on, is one of the factors bringing this country down today.

John
I always love to listen to these folks that believe socialism is the best way to go and capitalism is the worst.
Yet the American Capitalist system has created 90 percent of the technology and medical advances in the world. Has developed the manufacturing model the rest of the world follows, and has made America the strongest, richest, and most coveted nation on the planet.
Why does it work?
It's called I_N_C_E_N_T_I_V_E
Yet these same folks live in countries that may be rooted in Socialism but are supported by their own Capitalists. They have their Billionaires and Self made Millionaires that only a capitalist ideal can create, Capitalist Moguls who really prop up their country whether they admit it or not. It's humorous actually.

Now we are being eaten away by the socialist ideals these persons covet. They come here in droves because they believe our Capitalist system has created enough wealth to sustain these socialist programs that reward the lazy. But it can only sustain it short term. The very thing they come here for is what is bringing this nation down.
They are not all Lazy. I am sure some are well intentioned and willing to work but where? where are the jobs? And I think the biggest drain on our system is not cash, It is medical care, food stamps, education (they do send their kids to school), Prisons, and just the strain 20 Million people put on our infrastructure.

Incentive creates growth and advancement.
Incentive to eat is what makes people, (and animal, insects, fish, even bacteria) get up in the morning and go out looking for food. It's called work whether you are just walking along picking berries off the vine or pounding nails. It is work.
I think there was an effort to require work for welfare but it was shot down.
Joyboy is right. They have a system where you have to go out and look for a job. I know a few folks on that. They complain that it is too much work trying to put in twenty applications a week (or whatever the number is). It isn't fair.

The capitalist's that created our system are quickly becoming a minority and once they are weak enough and there are not enough left to sustain the system this country will fail.
We are witnessing it now. It is a sad day for America.

Hmmmm, I think the socialist/capitalist labels (personally--US is more corporatism these days) only go so far. It does come down to freedom--go Mike! Freedom to do what you want (even if its dangerous to you) as long as it does not hurt others. I don't think its moral to force people to pay for others--and yes, thats done involuntarily through the tax system. Theft is wrong and taxation is theft. It is simple. If I don't pay taxes, eventually someone shows up with a gun and forces me to pay. Fairness and equality cannot be forced---as much as it makes people feel good about it.

Taxes, we all hate to pay, but they are necessary. Taxes have been in existence for thousands of years. Without taxes you'd have no roads, no water and sewage in cities, no police force, no armed forces, etc. Unless you all want to go back to the wild west days on the frontiers, where the only law was who had the biggest guns, then you need taxes.

Individuals at the worst murder by ones and twos. Governments at their best murder by thousands and at their worst murder by millions. Taxes support mass murder.

As usual with all things they always attack the stronger first trying to bring them down but in the case of Sarah Palin they will never bring her down and she will only get stronger and come out much more dangerous to her rivals and enemies than before remember she lives in one of the toughest environments in the USA and compared to a mouse like Obama is she is a grizzly that would devour him in 1 chomp

Obama a mouse? hmmmmmmmmmm I don't care what anyone's opinion of any candidate is, espeicially if it's about the one who outmanuvered all competition. But to call the President of the United States of America (again regaurdless of one's opinion or political affiliation) a mouse is completely denying the reality of the political process. Hey if Obama's a mouse YOU run against him next election. see how far that'll getcha.

Cheers,
Rick

Gary,

The name calling is counterproductive. All it does is make people angry. Anger divides people and what we need to do right now is to get Americans together to protect what is left of our country and it's heritage. The very best things we can do right now are to let our elected officials know what we feel about the the bills being considered, and to let the actions of the administration speak for themselves.

at least if I ran against him and if asked to show proof of birthright doctument I'd gladly produce and show it stantuating my proof of legality.

I've noticed the "birthing" issue is really popping up -- saw a segment on Lou Dobbs and then a liberal take on MSNBC. OK, here is my opinion. I think the "birthing" caucus are lead by nutcases and whackos. Even if they are right in the end (Obama was born in Kenya and trained as a Muslim in Indonesia), they are still nutcases and whackos. Why, you ask? Because they would have just gotten lucky (LOL!) -- there is no shred of evidence that it can be true, but these folks are blinded by their absolute hatred of Obama and nothing will stop them (even if Ronald Regan rose from the dead and declared Obama a natural born US citizen).

Now, I don't think calling these folks nut cases and whackos is really name calling. It is just like saying someone is 6 feet tall -- it is just part of their makeup.

So, let me summarize: Birthing caucus -- Nut cases and whackos (even if they are right).

Kevin

Well,
For what it's worth I like Sara Palin. Will she ever be President? Who knows? There are, of course, practical issues that need to be delt with as we speak. I have been worried about a depression coming even before it began to show up in the News and Political Cartoons. Some say we may be thru the worst of the ecomonic downturn. I hope so.

Under most circumstances I would agree with this. But mouse? Seems a little silly to me. After all the President will eventually be labeled a Lame Duck. I think that sounds much worse than mouse.

Outmaneuvered? I'd say out bid is more accurate. You can buy anything if you have enough money. Even the Presidency.