JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum Genre Demographics

I'm a member of NSAI (living in Seattle) and I've gone to Song Camp and some BMI-sponsored industry workshops like the Kauai Music Festival. I read books, I watch the workshops, etc, etc.

NSAI resources do a great job of pinpointing the mainstream Country demographics - women aged 25-40 doing all the things that go with it, who have the buying power in the home. You write for them and make sure you don't let them change the channel.

But you know, over the years, I just grow more certain that as an artist, this is in no way my best target audience. And I really want to be an artist/songwriter and have some shot at publishing - but maybe not in Country...

I'm sure the information is out there and well-defined, so I'll ask it: What are the demographics per other genres that you are *really* going for?

(I'm casting a wide net so that others can benefit from the answers, even though I have a narrower band of interest.)


Thanks for your thoughts!

-Ethan

Hi Ethan,

Great question.

I think less about the demographics of a genre than I do about the genre itself. My weakness is in pitching, that's why my team includes publishers and co-writers who pitch. This is because I spend my networking time drumming up bass work (how came you can't bass up drum work?) That's my bread and butter.

When I pitch songs, it's to publishers who I know quite well. I rarely even do demos, just go in and sing the songs to them. Sometimes we'll cowrite on them, other times they'll just like it and then we'll do a demo on it. It's pretty much the same with cowriters. The only cuts I've gotten myself were a few songs on a German artist I was producing who cut some of my songs. Even then, I didn't pitch them to him, he just heard them at a writer's night while here to do pre-production work on his album.

So I've never had to pay much mind to demographics aside from mainstream country, and yes, those are the demographics, though they sometimes will slide younger with certain artists such as Taylor Swift.

But for genres, I believe it is important to get it right. If someone writes a song for modern country that sounds like jazz, or sounds like old country, it becomes a door closer among the publishers. It's the same with jazz, rock, and etc. There are genres within genres and you need to get it right.

You can search the demographics for different genres, but just for fun, try looking at the biggest selling jazz cds, for example. What are the lyrics like, the cd labels, the artists, how about the promo for them. You can probably figure out those demographics with simple deduction.

Interesting thread, I'm looking forward to reading more. Good luck on your research.

Mike

Well yes, CMA does a great job of doing the statistics every year. And they are free for everyone to make something of. Here's the one for 2008 http://www.cmaworld.com/media/pdf/marketing/2008_cma_industry_overview.pdf

Statistics can be useful, if you are really good at reading them. But if you think you can make something out of statistics without a particular emphasis, you can forget it. As a songwriter mailnly in country and adult contemporary (well, I do drift some also), these stats are useful as a broad framework for knowing the target audience. I can use it to interpret which point of view's will be commercially viable, and decide which images and values that will most probably be commercially viable to include in my writing. So the demographics can at best help me to better the odds of getting a cut, knowing and acting on some of these things.

But when that is said, I don't think a lot about them in the creative process. When I listen to your songs on your Myspace site, they more comes across as folk/rock, and the closest commercial reference that comes to mind is Bruce Springsteen.

If that premise is accepted, then you might ask, but what are the demographics for that? I'd say the male counterparts of the country stats. Male listeners between 30-50, just about..

That is very true as for listeners, male's make up a large segment of the audience. But that is not to be confused with CUSTOMERS. Women account for 70% of all sales of concert tickets, t-shirts, hats, posters, etc. So while it is great to write songs for that partying male, if they don't buy CD's, and mostly get their music from illegal downloads, no one is really doing themselves any favors catering to them.
It is why out of the 26 number one songs in country music last year, 24, were positive, up tempo made the singer look like a winner and glorified women.

MAB

Are there really specific genres anymore ? I listen to quite a bit of new material, and genre wise, it's at times very difficult to put in a box.

If writing for a request, sure genre is important. But just listen to anyone's mp3 player these days, and there'll be a whole bunch of different stuff on it.

I prefer to write the song and produce it how it "feels". Probably better for artistic expression too.

cheers, niteshift

Niteshift,

The genre lines continue to blur, but as far as country music goes it is always in conversational lyrics and reality based subject matter. People as listeners now listen to a much wider variety of music. On I-pods you will be likely to find Green Day and Nine Inch Nails next to Kenny Chesney and Taylor Swift.
You are hearing more rock influences in country music particularly but the story still makes the difference between country and most other formats.

MAB

Yeah, that rings true in my ears as well as my experience, Marc.

It doesn't look like we are on the brink of any big turns like when Willie Nelson released outlaw country in the early 70ies or like when Garth Brooks launched the rockin' new country in the 90ies.

But if we follow the historical pattern, there might happen something new early next decade? :-)

I agree on the feeling approach, but funny enough it always ends up like some kind of music anyway! :-)

What I see is that rock is more rebellious in terms of dividing in subgenres noone can make sense of, but if songs are going to make it on radio, they better have some recognizable markers to be selected from. Outside of radio, it's a different ballgame..

Interesting to see what happens as country adapt more rock influences - will they make country blur? hehe

The Willie Nelson and Garth phenomenoms are pretty good examples Song Dude. (Never know what your name is, but you are pretty smart for a Denmarkian) actually what both of those and others did were bring different people into the genre that didn't like country music before.

Willie, Waylon, Merle, Johnny Paycheck, etc. brought in the "Owtlaw Movement" which basically brought the "pot smoking hippies"in. That widened the format and opened up the concepts. Of course Willie then became a Hollywood actor and got all respectable. LOL!

The Garth phenomenom brought in the "Kiss" fans of the big rock show into country. He shifted the peramerters and dynamics of the game by getting the rockers involved and the big stage shows we see now.

In both case it radically opened the money floodgates and the LA and New York inflences in. Which of course got rid of the multi year careers and led to the flavor of the week singers and acts.

If you follow the trends in country music,you can see a correlation between the money coming in, and other elements of society. For instance, if you look in 1995,the same time Country was exploding, things in LA were insane. Rodney King riots, mudslides, earth quakes, famine, pestilince, locusts, etc. They came to Nashville, invested in real estate and basically took over the industry here.

The latest trend is reality TV shows, and the youth phenomenon of Taylor Swift, who was the biggest selling act in all of music. That continues marketing music to a younger demographic which of course are less likely to purchase music legally. So that is essentially where we are.

MAB

Song cabinet Dude,

The influences are very much there in modern country.

Rascal Flatts- Journey
Jason Aldeen- Aerosmith
Little Big Town- Fleetwood Mac
Montgomery Gentry- Lynyrd Skynyrd
Van Zant- 38 Special
Darius Rucker- Hootie and the Blowfish.

MAB

Hey, I like my new name :-) My american co-writer has teached me to appreciate the dude'ing.. Lol

Thanks for that analysis, Mark. I knew the Rucker one, but the others weren't that obvious to me, so it's really helpful for my ears!

Never realized the american sociology behind those events, really interesting! You should make history, at least write a book about it.

Actually, in Sweden (yeah, them with "The Pirate Bay"). There are now a (so far) legitimate political party called "The Pirate Party" who lobby for having entertainment for free. At the swedish national election in 2009, they got 7% of the votes! Scary stuff..

Well, I can't say I really get the hippie movement (I think they were a bunch of egocentrics), and neither am I a Kiss fan, but I have learned to appreciate some of the new country/pop, allthough Im really a blues guy by heart.

Is your name Magne? I apologise if I get it wrong.

You always have very intellegent posts. Usually you seem to understand more about American Music than most people here. If I can help you with understanding some of this idocy over here, let me know. You can always PM me.

There are enough books about all this, I don't think one more will make much difference. I prefer to do my own kind of "online workshops" on pages like these. More informal and personal.

If you study the history of Nashville recording you can see a very interesting pattern.

Starting in 1936 with the Bristol Sessions, Jimmie Rogers (A distant cousin of mine) and the Carter Family,started the first major country record out of Bristol Tennessee/virginia. Nashville was already in the book publishing business so it was a natural expostition to come here.

In 1955, Owen Bradley started the music business here with Bradley's Barn, which started the "Nashville sound" Kitty Wells, Patsy Cline, Jim Reeves, Tennessee Ernie Ford, Jimmy Dean, etc. That brought attention from New York, where most of the music and television industry was. That is why you got TV shows like Eddie Arnold, Tennesee Ernie Ford, Andy Griffith in the 50's and 60's.

In the 60's you see the spike driven from Johnny Cash, Glenn Cambell, Mac Davis, Hee Haw. The "Outlaw Spike you mentioned came at that time, the mid 70's where the hippie movement was happening.

The late 70's-early 80's brought the Urban Cowboy days with everybody looking for love in all the wrong places.

The early 80's were the new traditional movement with Randy Travis, George Straight, Alabama, Reba.

The late 80's-early 90's were the Rock explosion with Garth, Shania, and others.

The 2000's have continued that with Rascal Flatts and on into Taylor Swift.

And it gets really funny how each generation complains about the current state of music coming after them. With the older contengient complaining about "That new crap that is on the radio, don't sound like in my day." The only thing constant is the complaining.

On Sunday I was in Florida playing a week of gigs that I do once a month. At the first of one of my shows, I saw an old Nashville writer friend of mine. He just happened to be in the area befcause he has a condo down there. We were talking and he was complaining about the current state of the industry. This is a guy who four years ago wrote one of the biggest songs of the year, called "Murder on Music Row", It was a huge hit with Alan Jackson and George Straight. It had the lines:

Twin fiddles can't be found and steel guitars no longer play
And drums and rock and roll guitars are mixed up in your face.

Great song and well known sentament. The funny thing is that I moved to Nashville in 1988 when this guy was just getting his career in high gear. He had some songs on the charts and the "old guys of that age, the 60's and 70's, were complaining about his songs as being "That new crap ruining country music."

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

MAB

Yes, I'd have to agree. More conversational story telling lyrics.

Funny, I used to live in a rural area, and wasn't really into country. Then went out and heard a few bands, and as long as it was played well, and delivered with soul and meaning I really enjoyed it.

The last 2 songs I've been involved with are country flavour, something I didn't think I would ever do as a keys/electronica guy.

Magne, does country have a good following in Denmark ? I'm finding the last track we put out gets a lot of hits from Denmark, and Germany especially.

Mark, if you've got the time, please drop by and give a few words on this one...

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/738469/page/1#Post738469

Backing track only. Is it Nashville ? I don't think so, but sure is a hell of a lot of fun producing it.

cheers, niteshift

Night shift. ARe you talking to me? If so I couldn't open your site. If you could drop me an MP3, I can give it a listen.

MAB

Done. ( email )

I'd be interested on your take.

It's funny to me, there's so many country guys doing stuff, and I'm not really into it, yet I'm having a blast prodcing this song.

Must have a lot to do with will power, lack of common sense, and sheer igorance of th genre.

cheers, niteshift

No not at all, country is almost (well, on radio, entirely) non existant, and that goes pretty much for most of scandinavia. To most people, if you say you do country, they grin a yiihaaa and begin to linedance like a russian. If someone is putting out any country, it sounds like (very) traditional stuff. Taylor Swift was on the charts with "Love Story" recently in Denmark, though. Americana is quite popular in my home country Norway, though.

The germans have something called 'Tiroler music', which is accordion based folk and singalong (mostly for elders), but I don't know much about their preferences for country.

Aha ! There we go Magne, there's a whole new market to crack ! I like the "line dancing Russians", now that would be an experience.

Perhaps I should add an accordian to my new track, and conquer Europe ?

cheers, niteshift

Nightshift,

Got the song. Thanks. I have been moving for three days so am a little tired, but I sent you my impressions. Here is what I said:

Geoff,

Cool track. Yes, it sounds like it could be country, maybe one of the newer acts out like Zac Brown or possibly Little Big Town. Needs some really kicking vocals on it. One thing that I don't hear is a big definable chorus part. I was waiting for it to go to a four or five (Nashville number system. If you are in "A" That would be the "One". The "four" would be a "D" and a "Five" would be an "E." Country features some pretty big changes in what I call a "Definitive line of deliniation". It is kind of telegraphing what you are doing so that it is very self evident. Again, this is nothing new. 60's, 70's and 80's rock always did it as well as all country. It is where we all hold hands and sing "Kum Bah Yah! It is expected and the audience wants it. Other than that I think it is a pretty cooking track. Good luck and thanks for letting me hear it. I hope you let me hear the finished product.

MAB

Geoff and Magne

Google and listen to an artist named Phil Vasser. He is a friend of mine and one of the top country artists out. He does a very cool mixture of Billy Joel/Elton John influenced country pop.
You see, I don't feel that music is about change as much as about adaptation. We all are influenced by things and gather all that either conciously or uncoinsiously. Then we take it to the next logical step.
I was a Ray Charles, Motown and Eagles nut so my music, has a very up front voice, huge harmonies, and a funk groove, while keeping the language and structure within the country market place.
That is what the majority of artists are doing now. If you have an artist, they are influenced by about a 8-10 year span of music. We are all interested about 12 years old and learn about music from there. Some earlier, some later, but most are about that. Around 13-14 we start playing and by 17 are pretty serious about it. So what we hear on the radio, coupled with our parents, older siblings, etc. make up the basis for our musical legacy.
The artists I mentioned all are like that. Eddie Montgomery and Troy Gentry, grew up being around Eddie's brother John Micheal Montgomery's band, learning songs like "Sweet Home Alabama" and other Southern rock standards. So that is their biggest influences.
Little Big Town are two girls and two guys, and if you are not an ABBA fan (Sorry Magne) you are probably going to be hitting the musical pinicle around 1977 with the Rumor's album. So that is going to be one of the biggest common threads of them when they form a group.
There is a television show called "Cross roads" where they have the country acts perform live with their heros. Wynonna Judd was with Ann and Nancy Wilson of Heart. Jason Aldeen just did one with Aerosmith, and the latest was Taylor Swift and Def Leopard. Very interesting.
Magne, the joke of Darius Rucker and Hootie and Blowfish is just that, a joke. Darius WAS Hootie and the Blowfish. I was talking to him about a month ago in town and he is starting to get the "Didn't you used to be Hootie?" stuff. And it is actually kind of funny, that I didn't really care for him as Hootie, but I like him very much on his country stuff. I can't define why. I think rock lends itself to a lot of redundancy. That "Only Wanna Be with you" song, drove me crazy because I thought his voice sounded like a frog in it. But his song "Don't Think I Don't Think About It" I like very much. Weird how your perception changes. No reason, just does some time.

Good to hear from you guys.

MAB

Hey Marc,

Thanks for your comments. You're quite right about " how we're brought up ". It's just what you were listening to, and those influences do permeate what you're writing or producing.

Me ? I kinda like country, but absolutly love Southern gospel, so I hear a muscal simlarity between the two, and try to mix and mingle the two, to create something which is pleasant to my ears. I say pleasant to MY ears, as I think it's a combo, that technically works. Wether it's pleasant to the listener is a whole different matter.

So are genres important ? To me, no, not really. That's only bcause I don't have a great deal of money riding on the outcome. If I did, then I'd play the game, and learn from those who have gone before me. Interesting thread.

cheers, niteshift

Hey Magne,

Cool ! Looks like we've got an opening for a new genre. Line dancing pseudo-Russian-country folk with accordians sounds good to me

cheers, niteshift

Yeah, I have a gut feeling that an australian mate singing southern gospel accompanied by the accordion, while perhaps dancing the russian kalinka or the chinese dragon dance, can really make it..

Just keep it positive, uptempo and with a soaring chorus!

Marc,

Thanks for sharing your stories.. They are great!

Even though Im just a wannabe songwriter who have chained myself to a livingroom studio, I feeling like I actually have a life, when reading this stuff :-)

Clay Mills, who wrote "Don't Think I Don't Think About It" with DR recently had a workshop at SongU. He was a really down to earth guy, who finally got a break with a great idea. I love those stories, ain't that what we all dream of..

You'll probably get one anytime now, Marc! Eagles and Motown influenced stuff is still hot in terms of sales and chart climbing..

Well, sorry ethan, about highjacking your thread, but another reference for your music could be the hitting Zac Brown band.. allthough you still need to get a hold of those women! :-)

I am very conscious of it. When writing songs for Justice, we have to constantly focus and refocus our aim on the market - tween girls (and their mothers - since the mothers buy or must approve the songs).

Tom

That's alright, made for some entertaining reading at least!

It is harder to put any specific genre in a box that much most of the time. Some artists that often were classified as country really weren't that much. Anne Murray, for example. She did do a remake of a George Jones classic, but other than that her music was defintely much more pop than country. I once read an interview with her in which she reasoned that they probably classified her as country because they didn't know how to classify her.

It was, IMO, in the 1970's when country started to become much more pop-oriented. A few country stars of the time even did disco-fueled songs when that short-lived genre was in its heyday in the late 1970's. Fast forward to today, and it's very hard to, say, compare Kenny Chesney with George Jones or Carrie Underwood to Loretta Lynn. Sometimes I regret that we have gone too far away from traditional country, but we had country-pop hybrids before. Think "White Sport Coat" by Marty Robbins or the rockabilly acts such as Elvis and the Everly Brothers.

Beechnut,

One thing that needs to be remembered is that not only country determines country. Other markets change. The "Pop" catagory changed to harder edged acts around the Anne Murray time. In my own experience, the country catagories changed enormously when other catagories changed. When Seattle grunge music took over the rock and pop airwaves, many groups like Alabama, who might have been considered rock ten years earlier, were pushed to the country airwaves.
All music adapts and changes. It is never just one format that determines those changes. It is an entire business model and the general public. And since all these elements generally compete with each other, it is rarely one person or entity that makes the determination. You find generally it is incremental and happens over a longer time period.

MAB

Here's a great resource on radio demographics and trends:
http://www.arbitron.com/home/content.stm

Arbitron is the major radio rating body. The above link will take you to a page that breaks down format trends, audience composition by format, and radio listening audience breakdown by age and sex.

Of course, this is just radio, but it will give a decent idea as to listening trends. The format trends spread out over the years is very interesting.

Mike that is just perfect - great link!

Thanks!
Ethan

Interesting figures.What are you sources? (I'm not trying to discredit you, I'm simply curious to find out more)

Carrie,

You could probably find out those numbers from ASCAP, BMI, Arbitron, Clear Channel. They are pretty well known industry standards.

MAB