JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Getting Songs Cut

There are so many websites that you can become a member and submit your songs to whether for free or for a fee. The ones that do charge a fee from $5 - $35 like ala Taxi or Broadjam.
Which I have been a member of both and think they are probably the most legiate for what they offer.
The one thing everyone says to get heard is you need a great recording. Now I can understand that with so many submissions they wouldnt want to listen to a bunch of junk. And as a band or artist trying to get a record deal you would want to present youre best. But for a Songwriter who can compose and write a zillion hit songs but isnt a singer or even is a singer but is only looking to get there songs cut by a major artist who would record it again anyway. Is there anyone in the industry that can overlook a not so great but still good recording to be able to open the door to GREAT songwriters that are not performing artists. Wouldnt this offer so many more options for performing artist that are not songwriters as well.

If you dont have to be a great Songwriter to be recognized as an Artist. Why do you have to be a great Artist to be recognized as a Songwriter?

Others will come along and get into great detail about this I'm sure.
And this subject always comes up.

1- Your recording sounds bad. NO ONE takes you seriously. Its like wearing a rag dipped in grease to your job interview, It says "You don't care enough"

Oh but I can't afford to or etc... Well these other ten thousand songwriters can...

How?

Well they put there music and songs before everything else in there life pretty much.

Like for example...

Well drive a piece of crap car
Do not go on vacations... EVER!
Limit your drinking,smoking, eating out whatever...

Now for the composer who can write a zillion hit songs....
Write ONE! and it will pat for EVERYTHING! all the recordings and whatever...

Just like if your an established "Artist: you can write so so top actual crap songs well if your a writer only who is established you can walt in mostly with people who you already no and more importantly "Know You" and play a tune or give em a real real rough maybe even a cassette straight out of the tape deck.

But believe me those first times those hit writers spent MONEY and TIME!
They still do afterwards but it gets a bit easier when you have some money to work with.

For the millions of others. those days are long over. They want quality in every regard. I don't blame them for this. I do blame them for a whole bunch of other things.

Regardless of all that wind as for this statement

If you dont have to be a great Songwriter to be recognized as an Artist. Why do you have to be a great Artist to be recognized as a Songwriter?

I couldn't agree with you more!

Thanks for taking the time to respond. So now that we got that clear that even the Best Songwriters need a great recording. And when money isnt an issue, from referrals to hours of researh after numerous attempts in studios to get that great recording you only end up with another good recording to add to the stack of crap you already got.

So where do you go to get that great recording?

It's kinda like going to a job interview well prepared with your resume, well-dressed, hair cut, clean nails, etc. How you present yourself speaks volumes.

Your music has to speak for itself. It can't speak well if it's dressed in old jeans. It's your calling card. If the singer doesn't deliver the lyrics well (and on key), if the music isn't well played & decently recorded, those who listen will just move on.

I think a great recording starts with a great song. I wouldn't go anywhere until I'd had a worktape go through various critique processes and rewrites. Don't neglect this or you will end up with great recordings of so-so songs.

Then, I'd choose my demo house based on a) the style of music I write, b) verifiable success stories from other songwriters in that genre who have used that house, c) pro reviews.

Like, if I decided to take some songs to a particular demo house, I'd get one song cut only, and have that demo reviewed by several people I trust. If the vocals & music cut the mustard, I'd be confident enough to use them again.

Personally, when looking for assistance with production, I look for musicians who I know are signing music they've produced.

Cutting demos is serious business. Like, I see listings for songs (not film/tv) that ask for specific instrumentation & groove to support the song - even tho the artist would re-cut it. It seems that nowadays the demo has to sound pretty radio ready, which is terribly frustrating (and costly) to songwriters, especially when getting a song cut is so competitive.

Why not take a different angle? Go to live music events in your town, get to know what local artists play music in your genre, hang out and chat with them, pitch your songs to them if possible. If they cut a song or two, you'd have a demo and a credit.

HTH

Not sure I follow you

But anyway if you have a stack of good recordings "not crap" what you have is "your catalog"

The coolest thing about good recordings is when you shop for film and TV it's ALWAYS "AS IS".. So that means "No Re-recording"

And if you don't shop for film and TV then you just cut your chances of every getting anything anywhere in less than half.

This is just all the way the game is played, like any other game.

I spent sooooooo much in studio's I just built one instead. But then I have always recorded my own demo's from 4 track cassette and upward. When I started you could submit a home cassette. But now everyone has a computer and gets better results with much less expense and work actually.

No hit song bought a $100 grand of gear in my lifetime, broke my back & neck to do it. (literally) If we waited for a "cut" or some promise of one to do anything we'd never get anything done.

Even though I fail, It can NEVER be ME who fails, it's hard enough to live with everything we have to live with it. But I can try to live with "I did everything I could,
I put everything in, every penny, every day, every year the sacrifices the dues, the joys the disappointments. In other words bad timing, bad breaks etc... but I'll never have to question my commitment and drive. To me that's "no excuse"

What I'm talking about can't be bought and can't be faked. When you think like this
all these questions and concerns don't even exist really. You love what you do or you don't. When you love something can you ever give enough?

At the end of a tremendous amount of effort you still need LUCK! Somebody has to help you somewhere along the way.

All the best!

You probably need an adequate recording of a song but you don't need a overly expensive one. A good song will show thru with an adequate recording. If you don't have what a producer/artist is looking for the best recorded song will be passed on.

Some who are seeking songs will pass on a song even if it is what they are looking if the demo isn't perfect. You don't want to do business with those types because they will always want something else down the line. So when you are satisfied with a recording of a song start pitching it. Try to send songs that seem appropirate for a listing.

Hello guys,

I know it gets pretty tiring of me always giving the "Nashville perspective" and I admit that is where I live and work. But Nashville is just about the only place left where people can have material listened to for commercial exploitation.Most other places have long since turned into totally inside communities. You might as well save your money.

But the real deal is that it takes "Flipping the desk." In the technological day and age that we live in, there is no longer "Can anyone hear through this song." The reason is the competition is so heavy and there are so many filters. Even if you were to get a song to a producer who can "hear through it" you would have to have a really good demo, because he is going to have to play it for virtually dozens of other people for their opinions long before it is recorded. And most of them can't hear through it.

I recently attended a TAXI event here in Nashville where this same question always comes up. The panel was as exasperated as we always get when we hear it because it is the equivalant of saying "I really don't want to do the same things you all have to do so why can't I get my songs cut?" It frankly gets insulting. One member of the panel played a demo on a current Rascal Flatts cut. It was a piano vocal. But the piano was so crisp and clear and played so perfectly, the vocal soared so much and the entire song just ripped everybody's head off. Oh yes, and the song was tremedously well written by a writer that had previously had three number ones. There is always that.

Everybody thinks people that move to Nashville and get writing deals have unlimited funds for demos or some secret door they go through to pitch songs. They don't. they have to find ways. One of the whole things about co-writing is sharing demo costs. And every publisher has a limited budget on demos so they are only going to demo about 10 out of 100 that are presented to them by writers, friends of friends, oustside songs, etc. So writers write about ten songs for every one they turn in to even be considered worthy. They may write "Zillions" of songs but only turn in a very few.And even fewer of those are actually demoed.

When you factor in that over half of those songs recorded are written with the artist, and those songs are from people the artist got to town with,went through the hardships and losses in the beginning, and these people often were the ones who supported that artist, co-writer, producer, label person, at the first of THEIR career, there is a LOT more incentive to take that song, promote that song, perform that song live, get opinions on the song from a million directions, not to say the least invest money in that song.

So if you are unknown, you are up against not only better written songs, but also more technilogically proficent songs and songs that have personal attachments to them.

Yeah, you better have a great demo.

MAB

Well Marc,
A Publisher I used to work with, who may get back in the business, according to what he told me is, you have to put the right song in front of the right person at the right time. Not always easy. Now why would someone who has a song signed have to play it for a whole bunch of people to see if it is worthy of a cut. If he/they don't see the potental of a song right off, he should pass on it right away.

Of course after you listen to dozens and dozens of songs you probably get pretty confused.

Marc, I never get tired of your Nashville perspective.

Tom

Ray,

It always has to be just the right song. It never goes anywhere without that. And you never know what is right. That is the general problem of all the industry, it is hit and miss. Whereas if an artist is saying something, going through something, living it, etc. they are going to nail their emotion better than someone who is not. Right place, right time.
The more you know artists and the inside people, the more likely you are to have the right song. But once again, you are having to go through filters.
I just had a friend of mine over to my girlfriend's house. he is with a band who signed a deal on Warner Brothers. His main job is as a plumber. That should tell you something about the music business. These guys have a current deal, are on the Row Fax pitch lists, are doing all the right things, going to the right parties, but they are all still working day jobs. That is the music business.
He is the bass player in the band but the Band is run by two brothers who are the main writers. He cannot even get them to listen to his stuff for the band. That is reality. In my dealings with Frankie Ballard, my own artist on Warner Brothers, I have 15 songs written with him. But he is now writng with Jeffery Steele, Craig Wiseman, etc. and his songs take a back seat to what the label says is going to be on his record.
That is the deal here. Even if you have the perfect song, it has to be played for a lot of people and go through a lot of hoops. And even being part of the project or the artist themselves do not guarantee anything. This is the business of music, not the business of friends.
Everything you do is designed to cut through the competition, from the idea, the writing, who you write it with, who is on your team, the demo, the guidance, who is behind it, who it edges out in the close competition, who it edges out in the medium and long competition, who it competes with in the marketplace, what kind of reaction it gets from the first, second and third line of critiques and finally, what kind of reaction it gets with the general public. All those steps have to be crossed. So there is not one step you can scrimp on.

MAB

And I think Mark's point is that even if you follow all those steps, carefully, throw yourself fully into doing whatever you have to do to make it happen, it's *still* a long shot. Even if you do everything right, and even if your song is truly brilliant, you don't automatically get a cut just by checking off all the right boxes on your list.

Hey Marc,
I have Frankie Ballard's myspace bookmarked. I took another listen to him. At first I didn't think I had anything for him but I may have some songs he may want to check out if he can't find good songs up there. Be happy to send them up on CD. Later.

Ray,

I'll be happy to pass along the info. but to be honest I am more concerned in keeping my own songs on there. he is inundated with people now, getting about 200 songs a week from the big boys along. And you have to remember, he is being paid to write for Sony and record for Warner Brothers, so his own material is going to be first on the list WAY before any of us get on there.
To be honest with you, I don't see anyone getting anything on this record they did not write with him. That is not his decision. That is corporate. And that is pretty much every artist out there.
When downloading took the industry, less revenue came in. So if it is a choice between a song that might sell pretty well that the artist did not write, and a song that might sell pretty well that he did write on, there is no choice.
Waylon Jennings was at a show one time and a guy came up to him asking to play him a song that was "Perfect for him." He let the young guy play away. After the guy finished, Waylon said "Hoss, you're right. That song does sound like me. But I could write the same song and keep all the money." That is the real deal. They are going to write their own because they can and because they have to.
In the eyes of the industry it is going to be the best songs. There is a producer, record label, publishers, and Frankie that will see to that. This guy has really good song sense. But there are going to be additional factors involved. The track record of people who wrote the songs and what they have delivered in the past. And most of all the personal tastes of what Frankie and his team decide. That is always the deciding factor.

MAB

Hey Marc,
Thanks. I realise it is a long shot but you never know when an artist can't find that "Last" song they need. I have heard of Artists who couldn't find the songs they needed after checking everything in Nashville. I hope you get a song or two on your Artist discovery.

Ray,

That does happen. Actually, that is how Jeffery Steele and Craig Wiesman get as many cuts as they do. In addition to writing ALL the time, and having a TON of contacts in addition to continuous track record, they often have a brand new song just as an act is tiring of all the songs they have been listening to and working with.

It takes about a year to 16 months for a CD project to come together. Most acts are on the road about 8 months of the year so when they come home(which are most likely early weeks here and there, they are meeting with family, doing the home things, buisness meetings etc. And recording. They record a little bit at a time, maybe three or four songs. Then they are back out on the road. All the time they are getting songs from Management, friends, writing on the road (Steele is on the bus with many of them) and performing some of the songs during their live shows to see how they test out with live audiences.

It is not unusual for acts to wear out on a song or several songs. Since you are always most excited about the most recent thing, they are always on the lookout for new songs. But the filters they have to go through, producers, record labels, A&R. etc, keep all that filtered out. That is why it is so hard to get something through.

In my own experience, I got a John Berry cut on a song called "Rescued Me" after they were finished recording. But they liked my song so much they went back in, added it (actually ended up as the title track) and bumped another song off of the record. Oddly enough, that person had bumped me off a Patty Loveless record about 8 years before.

So it does happen. But the fact that I wrote it with David Vincent Williams, who was coming off a number five song called "Hands of a Working Man" for Ty Herndon, and the fact that his song plugger worked for Warner Chappel, the second largest company in Nashville AND the fact that he had gone to colledge with the producer on the project, all played into getting the cut.

It is about access. That is what is the key to everything. If you have a song written that is really good, and your friends like it, that is great. But unless one of those friends have access to the upper levels of the artist's world, able to breach through the producer or the label people, it is going to be screened out unless it is just magnificent. Which does happen.

Then of course you have to go through those teams to make the final product, which is why 15-20 songs are cut and 12 are used on the CD. Ever seen the "Special three bonus tracks" on a "Greatest hits" CD? That's where they come from. And everyone have competing interests in the project. Right now with Frankie, I have 15 songs. Those are competing with the songs he has written with Steele, Wiseman, etc. Then the existing catalogues of those guys, along with Rutherford, Dipeiro and company, that are pitching their other songs to him that he didn't write. There are songs that are coming from everywhere. It gets kind of funny actually.

I saw him last week and he is being pitched songs by artists who don't get their own songs on their own projects. he is getting songs from Dierk's Bently, Blake Shelton, Jason Aldeen,
Jamie Johnson, also. These have all become friends of his as well. He even gave Dierk's Bently a guitar. it is a VERY inside business.

So Ray, the deal is "upping the level of your odds." You co-write a song, you double your chances of getting it out there. You co-write it with a known entity in a place like LA, New York, Nashville, you get it up the ladder a little further. Everything has to be competitive, from the writing, to the demo. It has to fight it's way up the ladder. Get represented by a well known publisher or song plugger, you have better odds. But nothing is guaranteed. I saw Sherril Blackman last week. Sherril is the top independent song plugger in town. He and the other song pluggers are getting virtually no meetings any more due to the artists writing everything. It has become almost totally self contained, just like rock has been for many years.

The deal is finding new artists on their way up, writing songs on them BEFORE they get deals, or get inundated by the outside world. It is kind of funny in a way. Right now I am very good friends with three people with some pretty large deals. One is Frankie, another is a bass player in a band on Warner Brothers, and a third pair are people that just won a major television show. All three groups are just like talking to the same people. They are all frustrated, because they have to wait on dozens of people, places and things to happen before they can even start recorded, nothing they bring in seems to get total approval from the "powers that be" and the music industry has totally lost every bit of fun and interest. Each one of them are ghermed to death and the only reason they confide in me is that I am the only one who doesn't gherm them. And I actually have material for them,but I know how the game is played and have to wait on my turn if it works out.
As I always say, the more you know about the music business, the less you want to know about the music business.

MAB

Thanks for the great insight Marc!

Jerry,

No problem. It is what I do. I want people to realize that it is not impossible. There are a LOT of gatekeepers, and a lot of steps to go through or around. But it can be done. Everyone of the people I have mentioned here, including dozens that I know I don't mention were and are doing the same things we are all doing. Writing songs, recording demos, putting out product, playing gigs, doing internet ventures. not one of you are doing anything other than what you should be doing.
You just have to be effective. If writers would take one night a month and visit a writers night or open mic, in their area, if they would make the effort to contact "unknown acts" they can actually sit down with, if they would just do some follow up beyond My Space, they would find themselves in a MUCH better place than they are now.
So many people look for the easy ways like sending something to a publisher or sending off to Taxi and expect that to be it. It is not. There is NO ONE IT! there are a lot of avenues and a Lot of angles to be worked on. But I will tell you one thing that I do know for sure.
EVERY SINGLE Hit writer or artist, started out with dozens of small connections that one or a few led to the bigger things. And that is what I try to get everyone to see. Look for things around you in your neighborhood. Partner up with them. Help them and help yourself. If you help somebody else, it will come back to you ten fold. But it is a PEOPLE business. You have to shake hands, kiss babies and get people to vote for you, your songs and your efforts sometimes over their own.Go get em'.

MAB

Jerry,

go to an NSAI meeting in the Tampa area. Find a guy named Mike Deeson. He is one of the local weathermen for a TV station down there. Great guy, very good writer. Try to hook up with him. Tell him I said Hi.

MAB

Ray,

I have hope. Brett Beavers played me a song for an artist he's producing the other day. He said, "Listen to this. This song floated to the top over thousands of other songs that were sent to me over the last year and a half...and it's still floating. I simply can't not like this song." Then he played it for me. It was without a doubt one of the coolest, most amazing songs I've ever heard in my life. It dawned on me in that moment that getting a cut is a lot less complicated than I'd like to think it is sometimes. If I write a great enough song...not good enough, but a GREAT enough song...a song who's greatness simply can't be denied, I'll get it cut if I can manage to stay out of the way. All the talk of who ya know...yeah, sure, you have to have someone who will listen, but that's the easy part compared to writing a truly great song. Anyone can get a sit down with a top producer if they really set their mind to it. Maybe not a second sit down, but I digress....

Brett didn't know who wrote that song when he heard it the first time....and if he had, it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference. The song is great. If you'd written it, he'd have cut it.

It will be my belief until the end of time that we as writers spend far too much time trying to find some way, some trick, some contact person, or hone in on some magical piece of advice that will be the answer for us in getting our 'good' songs cut. Why? Because we hear bad, fair, good, and really good on the radio all the time and we figure we can do all of that and better. But that's where all the politics comes in that MAB refers to...companies dictating that their artists will be 'writing' with so and so, etc. He's dead right. Happens all the time. 90% are inside jobs. Those artists that have proven themselves have that luxury. Brad Paisley can put out anything he wants now but that wasn't always the case.

We don't have that luxury. We have to write GREAT songs. (here's where the masses will chime in with, "But Bill, how do you define great?", thus shooting me down like I'm some kind of dreamer.

Well, maybe I am a dreamer. But I heard great when I heard that song the other day...truly great. It's like porn...you can't define it, but you sure as hell know it when you see it.

See, it really isn't all that complicated after all now is it?! ;>)

Billrocker
www.writethismusic.com

hit submit twice...sorry.

Bill,

Very well said. You see my point of view comes from the fact that most writers are so consumed by networking and trying to make those connections, web sites, what service to use to pitch their song, what song plugger to get in with, how to attract publishers, etc. they NEVER stop to figure out if they have THE songs that blow everything else away.
That is very hard to do. But exactly what we have to do.

Well said Sir William.

MAB

Hey Bill,
I have no doubt everyone that has been writing for a while has at least one hit if not a super hit in their catalog. I have had unsoliciated feedback on song submissions that was very postive so I don't worry about having a song or two to pitch.

The other thing I would say is it takes time to write good songs. You don't write a hit every day. While Artists and Labels want the Artist to write all their own songs it is a big mistake to not listen to outside songs because that is where you are most likely to find that "Sleeper" that puts you on the map.

Bill,

But what was the quality of the demo? Was it a guitar/vocal performed on a 1980's mono cassette recorder? Or was it "radio ready". Regardless of the recording quality -- what is a great performance, too?

Kevin

Without that "great" song, none of the other things make any difference. I get a fair amount of indie cuts because of the other things, just got an indie cut yesterday on a recent cowrite, that makes three indie cuts this year so far. But, until I write a great song, It's extremely unlikely that I'll have a major hit.

Songwriters always look for the magic "key.". Well, there is one...write a great song. Do everything possible to improve your writing, expand your experience, learn to feel and communicate. Listen all the time. Listen to the music you are aiming to get cut. Listen to what that music is affected by. Expand. Learn. Work. Read. Do a websearch on "creative writing." If you stopped listening to new music twenty years ago, don't be surprised if your songs sound like it. You don't have to listen to things you don't like, just find new things you like. Stop making excuses and do it. Tie your shoes. Stand up straight. Look me in the eyes when you talk to me. Rotate your tires, and brush your teeth.

It's just that simple.

All the Best,
Mike

What is the good of writing a hit song if you can't squeeze it past the doors of publishers and artist that don't want to hear outside songs? If recorded by an indie artist on an indie label, how do you get radio to play it, they wouldn't know a great song from a hole in the ground.

Everett, to be fair, most of those guys play golf. They would know a hole in the ground.

absolutely undeniably great song, fantastic recording with excellent vocal delivery, and a RELATIONSHIP that can get it out there. Those are the rules of the "get a cut" game today.

Everette,

One of the biggest skills in all of the entertainment business is in developing the relationship. Aside from writing the song, you have to get it to an audience. To do that you have to present it either through clubs, writer's circles, other venues, the Internet, publishers, producers, etc. That is 85% the success of any writer, artist, etc. especially in the day and age of everyone can try to do this.

The cool thing about Nashville is that the community is actually very close knit, and if you have something of quality, everybody talks about it. It pops up. That doesn't mean it becomes a great hit. It means it gets better access. People who don't understand that and feel they can just "mail things in" never get that part.

Writing, recording, performing, the song is only 15% of it. Without something amazing, all the 85% in the world does no good. And most songs are quite frankly just average. Not nessasarily bad or that good, just average. Very few stand out. If other people don't take it from one person to the next and help build the ride of that song or artist,the song or artist quite simply don't go anywhere.

When Harland Howard, Bobby Braddock, Willie Nelson, Roger Miller, Kris Kristofferson and others moved to town, the same was true then, although those days business was generally done mostly through a shot glass in the local tavern and later, on the golf course, than always on stage or in the studio, whereas now, it is in business lunches, and corporate staff meetings, but the principal has never changed.

It is about getting more people to agree with you and your song than dissagreeing with you. Getting them to invest their time, money and attention with you instead of the millions of other choices out there. That is the true skill. Writing them is the easy part.

MAB

Good one Mike, some of them would be trying to putt the song into the hole, mistaking it for the ball.

But Marc, everyone can't live in Nashville, Nashville wants the whole world to buy their music, but Nashville won't acknowledge that people outside Nashville can also have the ability to write and produce music. I don't like Union closed shops, where you have to know someone on the inside to get in, talent does not matter, we won't look at your credentials, only the name of someone who sponsors you. It's not always the best talent that makes it, it is sometimes the person that tramples others and smooth talks others to get where they are. Not everyone is so desperate to be recognised that they will forsake home, family and friends to head to Nashville and maybe live from hand to mouth with the outside chance that they will make it. I don't know if admire someone like that or pity them. It takes guts or reckless abandonment to do it. But songwriting shouldn't be something that you have to be in a certain location to do it and succeed. If you want to build cars, then go to cities where the factories are, but songs are not cars. They are not built in factories. If someone wants to write a book, they don't have to go live in the city of the publisher of books, they write it at home and send it to the publisher. I don't see myself at my stage in life, forsaking all to go to Nashville to live, but if I have some great songs that the world should hear( not saying I do) shouldn't I be given a chance?

I can't speak for MAB, but it seems like the answer is no! I guess no one is given a chance, they have to go out there and grab that chance. I guess songs are like cars since they are manufactured (recorded) in Nashville (or LA or NY or London...). I think the point that seems to be made over and over again is that if there is a choice between an outside song and an inside song and the writing is about even, why wouldn't artists just record songs from people they know and trust? Makes sense to me.

Now if you have a song that is head and shoulders above everyone else's, then you you have a shot.

Kevin

MAB,
Enjoy reading your posts! It's always good to hear firsthand whats going on in the "Emerald City"! Are you still doing your "tours"? I need to come to town, have new music, up-tempo, no more "Cheaper Than Therapy"! Let me know,....

Droptine

I'm sure there are poets, damn fine ones, who are complaining that they don't get paid enough for their poetry. Several years ago there was an actual market for poetry books, and a couple hundred years ago you could make a good living getting a patron, and publishing your verse.

This is just the way it is. I got the same message when I visited Nashville -- I just have to accept what the market is doing. Sure, I wanted to say, hey, just listen to my stuff, you'll be BEGGING to hand me a contract. But everybody who comes to Nashville comes in thinking that way, from what I hear. The fact that I like writing, and might even be decent at it, doesn't entitle me to money or opportunity.

Nashville is flooded with people who have made huge sacrifices just to be there and get those opportunities, the way LA is overrun with good-looking young people who want to be in movies. I can't pull a Paul Gaugin on my family and move there -- and I can't sit and complain that they aren't tracking me down and handing me money and fame.

It takes talent, persistence, dedication and luck to "make it." But luck doesn't hang around waiting for people who aren't there to meet him when he shows up.

This, to me, is a "money" thread...in other words, something very valuable and true was said here. We can either embrace it or ignore it at our own peril.

We have to write great songs.

Everett,

WHAT???? If you can't squeeze it by? You can walk into any record company, publishing company, or artist rep in Nashville and give them your song. If it's packaged correctly and you follow some basic guidelines, like calling first to ask permission (most will grant it) it will get listened to by someone who's looking for great songs. That's the path of least resistance. If you want to work a little harder, you can attend workshops and seminars where the speakers will agree to take your song personally.

Dude, getting it in the right hands is the easy part. It takes absolutely no talent whatsoever to network. I'm a member of a publisher group that is by no means exclusive, and guests come all the time...major publishers and producers. They all offer to take 1 (one) song from meeting attendees. And they listen.

If you're a soldier going into battle and you tenatiously and creatively work your way through the front lines, and through your sustained efforts you finally are able to corner the enemy general, all your effort will be have been wasted if you don't have a bullet in the chamber.

b

If you want a simple answer to the question; "do you have to move to Nashville to make it?"

Take a look at who has made it. Does anyone here think Taylor Swift would be at the top of the game if she had not moved to Nashville?
And I don't mean that as a reflection of her talent or lack of.

Hi Bill Rocker.
It's good to see you here again.


And where might these meetings be held and how does one become a "guest".

Everett,

You're right, everyone can't live in Nashville. You said,

"But songwriting shouldn't be something that you have to be in a certain location to do it and succeed."

Why? Who said that? Why is it ok for surfers to have to move to California but it's unfair that songwriters need to establish a presence of some kind in a music town if they want to SELL their songs (which, by the way, has nothing to do with WRITING songs)? Why do you think that's unfair? Because it's inconvenient for you?

You say,

"I don't know if I admire someone [who makes personal sacrifices by moving to a music town] or pity them. It takes guts or reckless abandonment to do it." If you do pity those people who've made those sacrifices and/or disrespect them for the decisions they've made, you should be fine with your decision to stay where you are, right? If that's the case I guess Im not sure why you're still complaining.

You say,

"I don't like Union closed shops, where you have to know someone on the inside."

There has never been an industry more open or more fair than the music business. What other job that pays big bucks can you get where there's no dress code; you don't have to get a haircut and buy a suit to apply; you don't have to answer the question, "Have you ever been arrested?"; references are optional; race, religion, age, sexual preference, and years of experience are non-issues; anyone who wants to play is offered a shot at the brass ring; and MY personal favorite...no drug testing! (just kidding...those days are long behind me).

Unfair? Heck no! It's TOO fair and that's probably the biggest problem with the music buisness...anyone who wants to fight can not only enter the ring but actually get a shot at the tile.

Ringo said when the Beatles were looking for a new drummer they called him because (as he tells it), "I 'ad a kit." Using your logic I guess you could say the Beatles were descriminating against people who didn't own drums when they hired for that position and argue that that was unfair. I'd argue that Ringo was willing to do what he had to do to put himself in a position where he had a shot.

By the way, who ever said life was fair?

br
www.writethismusic.com

Bill,

Great to be back...you know me...in, flury, gone. (I'm ADHD)

Come to Nashville the 3rd Monday of September (no speaker in August) and I will take you to the 3:30 Nashville Publishers Network (www.songpublishers.com) monthly meeting which meets in the main conference room of BMI (1st floor). You will go as my personal guest. And that goes for anyone else who's reading this. We LOVE having guests. I'm speaker chair and I'm not sure who I'm getting as speaker yet...I have some irons in the fire though.

Anyone interested should contact me ahead of time, either through PM or my website.

But I'm tellin' ya, getting your songs TO the right people is the easy part. Spinning their heads with your songs is the hard part. It's a tough town, a tougher market, and a brutal economy. 'Really Good' won't even get you close to getting a cut. It might win you a second appointment or invite to pitch again, but it won't get you a cut. And if U send a dog? U gone.

Like I've told Everett, the industry reps aren't trying to exclude, discrimated against, ignore, hurt, mame, deflate, criticize, demoralize, reject, or humiliate us. They just want us to write a hit song. If we don't do that, they WILL blow us off. If we do that, they will love us forever (or until we don't write another hit song). It's really up to us. It's REALLY not someone elses fault.

br
www.writethismusic.com

Ray,

You said,



What on earth has led you to this conclusion?

You said,


Dude....positive feedback is awesome. But good and really good will both inspire positive feedback. I'm not saying you haven't written the great one...you may have. But positive feedback does not equal truly, drop dead, flat out, in your face, frickin GREAT!!!

One myth I operated under for years was that if I didn't foul out or score at the wrong end of the court, the MVP award was right around the corner. Truth be told, I was in the game. But I sure wasn't being featured in the highlight reel. Heck, I'm still not being featured in the highlight reel. But I have a few more people coming to my games than I used to. ;>)

Dinner time,

br
www.writethismusic.com

I have probably attended about a dozen NSAI pitch to publisher nights in Nashville. Every one of those nights had 60 or 70 wannabes there pitching a song.
Every one of those wannabes, including me, thought they had the next big hit, including me. (or at least a song worth a second listen)
I never heard a hit until I was there the night I heard "She Wouldn't Be Gone" Cut by Blake Shelton.
I knew it was a hit soon as I heard the first verse. So did the publisher.
That was also when I realized I didn't have a hit to pitch.
I had heard hundreds of songs before I heard that one.
Of course I did not know for sure that night. I did not know until I heard it on the radio a few months later.

Damn I wish I wrote that one.

Well I guess I've been put in my place.

Hey Bill,
I have had it in mind to make a trip to Nashville sometime in the near future and make an appointment with my PRO (BMI) and see if they can hook me up with a Publisher or two. When I decide to make the trip I will E-mail you and see if we can have a get together.

My wife is a Nurse. Retired but a Doctor called her 3 months ago to see if she would work a couple of days a week. Well someone left and now my wife is working full time so I can't make a trip yet.

I guess you are listening to lots of songs so you can judge if everyone has a big hit in their Catalog.

The Publisher that I was working with, who signed a couple of my songs on the first time I pitched some songs related to me that he got mostly junk so maybe every one that has been writing for a whild doesn't have that big hit in their catalog.

About 3 years ago I sent some songs to someone in West Virginia. I don't send a SASE anymore because no one uses them anymore.

A couple of months later I got a letter from him saying they would press my Train Song. What Train Song? I didn't send him a Train Song so I ignored the letter. Som time later he sent another letter identifying the song. Well I did have someone riding a train to work in the song but it was hardly about trains.

We went around and around because he wanted that song pretty bad.
I finally got everything fixed so he could put the song out. Keep writing. That big hit may be just around the corner!

Why say that Everett. You are your own success barometer. I, or anyone else, haven't the right to tell you how to proceed with your music. Or your life.
You have been doing this for a while and I am sure you know the score. You write some very good stuff and I have listened to your songs.
Nashville is looking for something specific. Provide it and it won't matter where you are they will talk to you. But if you want to actually proceed I think they want you close. I don't think that is hard to figure. Movie stars don't move to Nashville. They move to Hollywood, or New York.
Years ago if you wanted to work in the Auto industry you moves to Detroit. Now you might need to move to China.
That's just the way it is.
It does not in any way diminish what you do.

Everett, we're all works in progress and we're all learning. I still have plenty to learn. About a year ago, I was exactly where you were, wondering why the doors didn't just fly open when I wanted them to.

These guys in Nashville are inundated. They spend their entire day listening to music (a lot of it at least decent), meeting people, wall-to-wall -- and they're probably not hearing a hundredth of what's out in the Nashville community. For every songwriter they give time to, there are probably ten more banging on their door wondering why the publisher won't give them just five minutes to listen to their hits. And you and I, sitting out of town, are not going to have a lot of success breaking through that unless we're extremely lucky.

LOL
Ray I wish I could listen to a song and know if it is a hit or not.
I got lucky on that one.
The thing of it is when I sit in on those Pitch to Publisher nights and listen to the songs it's like listening to the frogs and crickets at night. I hear them every night and you know what? they always sound the same. They do sound wonderful though. It is natures beautiful night music. But it always sounds the same.....
But
Every now and then I'll hear something special. Maybe a Whippoorwill, or I might get lucky and hear the beautiful bass voice of a Bullfrog. The other night I got to hear a Great Horned Owl.

Those are the special moments of nature. Granted a Great Horned always sounds like a Great horned, and a Whippoorwill always sounds like a whippoorwill but I know it when I hear it.
It's like that with songs. You listen to 500 really good songs than all of a sudden you hear one that is special. That is the one that will be the hit. You know it when you hear it.

How do you know it when you hear it? It's easy. Just like the Great Horned Owl you have heard it before. You hear the hits on the radio every day.
So you might ask; why don't I write a hit if I know what one sounds like?
The problem is I don't know how to sound like a Great Horned Owl. Oh! I can come close but I can't fool anyone.
When I can sound like the Great Horned Owl I'll have a hit.

It would be great to see you if you ever make it here.
Matter of fact I would like to get together with anyone who comes to Nashville. My house is always open and The BBQ grill stands ready.

Bill,
If I get up that way I will defintely give you a hollar.

Bill,

At these "pitching nights" are they all recorded demos or do some folks play live?

Kevin

Everett,

The questions you've asked are asked in every seminar, workshop, critique session I have ever attended or taught. "How can Nashville, New york, or LA know about the great music that is out there if they don't listen to the music that is out there?"
The best answer I ever heard was by Herky Williams of ASCAP who said "people are always wondering why we don't reach out more to other areas. The reason is everybody is trying to reach in?"

With the unbelivable amount of songs, writers, artists,trying to do the same thing every day every year, all the time, there is simply no physical way people inside the town can listen to all of it. Just can't happen. So the writers who want to be a part, have to do that. They have to be a part. Mt.Everest does not come to the climbers. They have to go there.

Songs are created everywhere. But there are only a few distribution points where they are manufactured,developed, and distributed. Those are New York, Nashville and LA in the states. Toronto in Canada, London in England, Sidney in Austrailia, etc. Most countries have a central distribution point where the legitamate sources of those industries, the banking, angencies, publishers, labels, Managers, plugggers, and the central writers etc are located. Just like any business.

In Detroit, as you mentioned, the cars are manufactured. (or used to be) But now other cars come from all over. Music is like that with the Internet, but you still have to get your music through the mainstream (radio) in order to really make money at it. And that takes going through the established avenues.

There are a number of people in Nashville who are doing quite well who do not live in Nashville. Hugh Prestwood (the Song Remembers When)lives in New York. Steven Seskin (Don't Laugh at Me) lives in the San Fransico area. Barry Gibb had Johnny Cash's house, until he burned it down. Peter Frampton, Carol King, Neil Diamond,all have presences in the town. And that is the key. making the time and effort to develop a presence. And that is what has to be done.

If you can imagine whatever you do for a living. You have taken years, developed your craft, built relationships, spent money learning what to do and locating yourself in an area where whatever you do is to a level you can make money. Then someone who has never done what you do but wants to step ahead of you in line, take your customers, and your livelyhood. How would you react to it?

That is the point those of us who are in music centers constantly try to make. Everybody writes songs, records them, tries to get them out. But there are those of us who have sacrificed our lives, financially, given up all security, family, etc. to go for the brass ring. Why are we expected to step aside for someone who hasn't done the same thing? just because it isn't convineint for them to do? That is no reason. just because they have "written a song, or done a demo or spent money?" There is no sense of entitlement. No one is handed anything. Everyone struggles, everyone writes songs, every one does demos. Everyone has the dream. Very few have the drive.

And the drive is the only thing that breeds success. People from inside a place like Nashville are always happy to show our town. We have writer's nights, open mics, seminars, shows, every day and night. It is the only place that someone will actually help you above their own interests, if they hear a song, writer or artist better than them. There is no other business on earth that will do that. In the co-writing process, when you write with an experienced writer or artist (those that have track record or are better or more politically connected) they are actually training you to take their job. There is no business that does that either.

But if a writer, artist, etc. don't care enough about their own art to make even the most basic committment to their art by taking time to learn the community the rules and etticate, why should that community take time to embrace them?

Most of it is just plain common sense. Wish you well always.

MAB

Droptine,

Do em' every day. It is a great time. The "tour" is through the writer's past, present and future. We do song critiques, performance evaluations, I take them around town, go to studios, have lunches with hit writers, publishers, etc. I try to introduce everyone to the town and vice versa as a friend instead of just another writer trying to get his music heard. Make friends is what networking is.
If you do the "MAB four essential songwriting elements, you do fine:"
#1 Creation of the song. Write songs that are interesting, different and keep people's attention.
#2 Presentation of the song. Make sure your demos sound good and competitive, and your performances stand out.
#3 Networking. Make a bunch of friends and have them want what you have.
#4 Business. underestand the elements that motivate other people financially and figure out how you can help other's achieve their goals and you will achieve yours.

That is what the tours are about. Would always love to have you. And Everett, that is how a lot of my clients find their way into the "back doors" that are so essential in this business. There is no "magic way," but I do provide a way to see the whole playing field without going broke or make too many mistakes.

MAB

MAB,
I'm a tour "alumni"! Took it a year ago, and I'm ready to make a trip back this fall. Would recommend your tour to everyone! Very informative, very candid, worth your time! No more "Cheaper Than Therapy" songs for me! Up tempo, driving, totally marketable songs!! Wait,... isn't that what everyone else is claiming? Oh yeah!? I posted a couple songs on the MP3 board, I'm sure you'll recognize at least one of them,.....BTW do you give "two-for-ones" for your tours? I'm married now. Ha!

Droptine

If you figure me out, send me a PM.