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Lately while going on my daily walks with my wife Sandra I’ve been pondering our Earthly limitations. In my early years, with the mindset “anything is possible”, I never considered that man was so boxed into Earth’s margins.

For example, being a musician, I’m amazed by the limitation of tonality. Be it half-tone, quarter-tone, of fractions there of, the frequency of tones end at the octave then repeat in a new register. I can’t help but marvel at the idea of a tone outside the box.

Consider half-tone music starting with middle “C” – the chromatic sequence then follows – Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb, B, - then comes alone “C” again in a new octave (but still “C”). Twelve half-tones, twenty-four quarter-tones, forty-eight eighth-tones, etc… No matter how you cut it, it’s going to end at the same point and begin the sequence over again and again, but still contained in our limited physical boundary.

Anyway, I’ve been tormenting my brain trying to hear a tone outside the box, but it just brings frustration and Migraines. What if Earth’s physics would allow some extra unimaginable tones? So instead of our music being based on twelve tones. It was based on fifteen. C Major Scale; C, D, E, F, G, A, B, H, I, J, then “C” again an octave higher.

These limitations seem to exist in every part of our lives. I’ve been trying, to no avail, imagining a new primary color (and what the secondary colors formed from the new primary color would look like). I can’t for the life of me think of anything more than cyan, magenta, and yellow. What would a new primary color look like? Boxed in again.

I read once where man can only make 26 possible sounds for speech. The hard “C” or “K” sound is one. Can you think of all 26, and then add a new one?

Life can be frustrating at times. Maybe I should give up my walks.

I believe other forms of music have many other tones. I can't think of a lot of the speech sounds but the Asian languages have a lot of sounds which include melodic tone placement and also there are those languages with the clearing of the throat sound.

Re tones...There is a distance in frequency between any tone and a tone an octave higher. It does not matter how this distance is measured or split up into parts it remains the same. Some instruments can slide or bend even play between defined notes or points in the sound spectrum but they cannot play tones that do not exist in the sound spectrum....... Well they perhaps can but they would not be picked up by the human ear. LOL

The same rule applies to colours. Any colour or shade is just a point in the spectrum. You cannot make the spectrum larger....... You perhaps can but it would be invisible. LOL

Not sure about the speech sounds Jean, though the article I remember reading mention 26 possible speech sounds in human beings. I think the article was published in Scientific American years ago. Maybe a Google could come up with it. I’ll check.

Regarding tones, we're all constricted by the physics of Earth. All the fractions of tones would still exist inside the box, be it half-tones, quarter-tones, etc.

The feedback will certainly keep my interest on this topic.

John

Thanks Jim! You articulated it much better than I did.

John

What about dogs. Dogs can hear frequencies that we can't. Hmmm. If you write music that makes dogs howl, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

I would think the same law of tonality would apply. It would just be in octaves that us humans aren't able to hear.

John

Well you have vowels, consonants, and diphthongs, and there are combinations in the vietnamese that have a sound like ng which is really a tongue placement thing but it still changes the sound. Like Nguyen. Non- native speakers say it Win or nuwin, but it doesn't really sound like that when a native speaker says it. Some african languages have a variety of click sounds. I think there are more than 26.

But regarding the tones. I have enough trouble working within the box.

But regarding the tones. I have enough trouble working within the box- Jean

Yes, it's amazing how much music is made from just 12 tones.

John

Well, I think there are the tones but also the spaces.. don't forget the spaces.. they sort of multiplies the whole deal, nevermind the endless rhythms to train the tones and spaces with..

The division in notes are also just divisions. With stringed instruments as well as synths ect, we continue to punctuate differently, and thereby divide the note spectrum outside the perfect note values in endless ways.

We don't give these kinds of punctuations names, yet they are still there, and we use them all the time..

So Im glad you did'nt ask us to NAME new ones, but just think of some. Just happened.. I was there

The big deal is what tones you use, how long they last and how you progress from one tone to the other. This is called music.
Master this science and you may be called a musicator LOL.

Keith Jarret got suspended from Berklee College of Music for retuning some of the pianos in the practice rooms to microtones. It's something that has been experimented with since before the mean temepered scale, specifically because it was hard to get instruments into a standard tuning with the technology around at the time.

The music that is written and preformed using microtones has a very differnt flavor from music written for tempered instruments. To use the color analogy purple and lavander are not the same color, they are close and related but not the same. So why limit your pallet to 12 whole tones?

Nowadays we don't have to retune pianos to get microtones on a keyboard.

Check this out. 211 keys per octave.

http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28intro.html

Interesting.

Yes, there are as many microtones in the box as one’s ear can fathom. When the old guitar starts going out-of-tune we’ve got microtones.

Though I've listened to quarter-tone music, my ears aren't quite ready to mix color analogy purple and lavender together yet, though I enjoy clashing unlikely half-tones together (dissonance).

John

Can't you get microtones by recording at one speed and playing back at another? That would give you an infinity of microtones.

As 100% is to a full bucket of water, (counting the cohesive water above the rim,,,("Really" full), 100% of our sounds and colors that we perceive with the brains we have now, is ALL we need to create an unlimited amount of music and shades.

WE are not limited at all! I see the octave as a perfect expanding Universe, that like it, is even increasing in speed.

Maybe the problem lies not within an octave, (for as Jim points out, there are different frequencies within any other C octave), but the problem could lie within any certain musician not able or willing to create even more original music from an octave's HUGE mathematical possibility. That goes for beats too.

As this relates to piano tuning, in the Mozart days of harpsichords, and the early pianos from 1726, there was a different tuning method of setting the notes with their beats per second not as they are now. "Those" sounds, even from Mozart and similar, would have all of us yelling, STOP!!!! But, to the players of that time, and for the listeners, it was their normal.

Limits within our notes? NO! Not ones that are reasonably countable anyway. Limited creativity, for many reasons for any one of us is what can limit us if we aren't musically aggressive enough to be creative. (Talent being just one a factor of course)

It's ALL in there! (Those initial 12 tones, plus combos of slurs, from any instrument, and all the other octaves for all sound colors to be expressed),,,,it's ALL in there! 100% Full of possibilities. Music history probably has only accounted for 1%, if that! Maybe business reasons, influence reasons, expectations, etc, is what holds the creative process back to make it seem like we need more notes.

We just have to keep banging away at the 100% of notes that we know of!

The edge of the growing Universe has us looking to see what is on the other side. If not made yet, we're looking for, and at nothing. Not yet anyway. When we hear NEW music, it's like the newly formed sections of the growing Universe, (100% of the Universe is all there is for that Universe),,,as I see it anyway.

you should listen to world music, which is based on other scales.

I myself have sung, and heard others sing 'between the cracks', lol. Also instruments like the violin have the potential to be 'off key'

PS - there are other tones -- but they can't be heard with human ear. Dog whistles, for example.

Interesting observations by everyone! I agree that there’s more than enough God given tonal possibilities to last us a lifetime. You won’t find me debating that.

And yes, I’m aware of the different modes and alterations of tonal possibilities within the “box”. However, I’m also fascinated with the contemplation and possibilities beyond our resources. Probably need to re-wire our brains to connect to those possibilities.

I know we can’t change the laws of scientific tonal limitations that have been handed to us anymore than our mind can escape our physical body here on Earth, but it’s mind-boggling to wonder beyond the “box”. I’m sure we’ve all wondered what’s beyond our Universe at one time or another. And that was the gist of my original post on this thread.

Keep the interesting replies coming.

John

My singing frequently contains microtones that largely unplanned and unappreciated.

Limitations are connected to freedom also. If we had endless possibilities, we would have no platform to get any job done. So by having a palette to choose from, we actually are given the freedom to make music. If we didn't have those limitations, we would be discussing each time if something would qualify as music or not (well, we do anyway, but you get the drift)..

Agreed, the complexities of our 12 half-tone system can give us plenty of possibilities Magne. Our brains probably couldn't handle more.

Note values, rests, durations, octaves, retards, dynamics, pivotal/extraneous/harmonic modulations, modes, chord structures,time signatures, key signatures etc, etc,etc, - all weaved into infinite roads of possibilities gives us a miraculous playground for compositional inspiration.

Isn't life wonderful!

John

Either nothing, or the shrinking of another one, allowing the Bully Universe to squeeze the life out of it!,,,,Silly!

Next!

Ha!!!!

The time it takes to think over exhausting possibilities, could have you compose a piece that may have you think you just created one outside a non-box box! 100% is already there. It just seems like there's limitations.

To find something in the nothing zone? Where's Einstein when musicians really need him?

One could spend a lifetime searching,,,,then finding what you speak of, then play it to a booing audience. Then he or she says, "Oh man, wait! I got another you're gonna love,,,I KNOW it's a hit"!

Then, the box will look like an ocean of diamonds. Plenty of gems yet to be created not tapped into yet.

Ponder, ponder, I love to do that though, I admit. I have written Universal theories. So, I really do understand the pondering process. BUT for music? Man, it's just so complete as is, I feel. It may be an allusion that makes our sounds appear to be limited. Besides, isn't it what we do with the sounds that can explore the unknown, not how many there are?

Now,,,,just PLAY! Compose something based on this topic. It may have you go outside your musical box that may be. ???

I try, but still just come u with Brit Pop Rock songs! (other than film music, but that too, is not really original. Tough to do, after so much music already created,,,,but tough may not mean we exhausted "everything" that is already right in front of us.

Hey! You get me thinking too much! I could have started a unique song! Now I have to stretch nore after moving snow for over 2 hours. Almost 2 feet of the white stuff in this area.

Great topic, John of another mother.

John

Hey John, some good points there.

Not sure about you, but I can't compose more than 10-12 hours a day. I use my idle time pondering.

I'd like to think some of my music falls at the tantalizing edge of the box (but not out of it).

Anyway, I do most of my pondering while walking at night with Sandra. So, it's killing two birdies with one stone; staying healthy and wondering about the wonders of the Big "U".

Best, John

P.S. My wife Sandra would probably whack you if she knew you were trying to give me a pep talk in spending more time with my music.

http://www.pro.com.eg/mazzika/details/e-kb-play.htm
If you get this keyboard, she'll really whack you!

A few years back, I talked ot Buddy, my cowriter then, about designing a keyboard that would have 1/4 tone steps, not just 1/2 tone ones. Today, I was drawing up what such a keyboard might look like. BUT, "searching" for 1/4 tone keyboards, to make sure there weren't any like mine envisioned one yet, I came across this Arabic style keyboard. Not sure where to by one,,Ebay?! Ha! If you want to step outside of your box, then this might just do it! My version would be very different, but you would get the options to do some different sounding music anyway, (with tones you are not using now of course), and while working with a familiar keyboard,,,,sort of. Check it out.

Get used to this one,,,,for if I do what I envision, (with the help of many), it will be a revolution to music, for sure, If it catches on, that is.

I wasn't going to talk about my vision, but since there already is at least one such 1/4 tone "optional" keyboard, I thought to let you know about it. Tell Sandra I'm sorry, but us musicians have to help each other, right? ("If" this is Help!)

So, as I said above in posts,,,,"It's all in there". I wasn't kidding! That, and much more. I think us piano players could one day play a keyless keyboard, much like a fret less bass. Imagine that! Slurs, slides, wiggles, with much more than even what 1/4 notes would give us! and even steady playing, if wanting to go back to the usual box you think you have there!



Ok,,,back to the drawing board.

Hey John,

Yes, I'm aware of quarter-tone keyboards/pianos and quarter-tone/microtone music. They've been around a long time. And no, I'm not ready to buy one in the near future. They require much finer hearing than what I have

Besides, these quarter-tones you speak of aren't out of the "box". They're tones within the cracks of the box.

What I've been referring to (pondering) from my first post on was totally new half tones - out of the "box" (beyond the physical capability of our system). Just pondering Earth's limitations...

And yes, our imagination can far surpass our limitations. On the other hand; remember the reverb units back in the 50’s? They were huge monstrosities with coils that could only produce one reverb. The scientist’s at that time said it to be impossible to build a smaller unit that could produce such reverb. That was pre-digital thinking.

The 12 half-tones and their octaves are more than enough for me to handle in this lifetime (unless I live for several centuries ).

John

I think this is interesting, the big question about outside the box. I can handle thinking about the color one easier than the music one. A world with 4 primary colors I can conceive of, can't think of a way to fit a 4th in there but yeah I can conceive it. But a note that isn't inside that doubling frequencies thing is beyond what I can conceive. Maybe if you approached the physics from a different way. Hell I don't know but it's interesting to think about. Ponder ponder ponder ponder ponder ...... LOL

John,
Ok, I'm with you now. But with universal math in place, the double frequencies are set in stone to produce octaves of course. With each tone having eight waves, they ALL have to be lined up in halves in order to produce a united wave that our brains can pick up to turn them into sounds.

SOOO,,,,what we need then is to have Quantum Mechanics allow for such math as to not use the bpm system, and those frequencies. Possible, yes. Just that we might not have the brain's hearing center that would be needed to hear those new half step tones in the Quantum world.

Would need Quantum Ears! I'm in! These ones now just RING all the time! And in one pitch. You'd think a musician;s brain would be able to come up with at least a basic melody for the Tinnitus. Geezzzz!

New half steps huh?.......I would follow your own signature to be able to get to sleep at nights. Then just dream in a Quantum world and who knows, you may just be able to perceive such sounds! Your brain is already on a search for them, so pay attention to your dreams.

The rest of us will sleep Chromatically! Ha!

John Daubert

Yeah John, I'm only a part-time ponderer (didn’t Dion have a hit titled “The Ponderer”) . Most of the time I deal with what is, not with what if - and follow my signature. I was afraid that signature would incriminate me someday.

Quantum ears - hmm... I'd be delighted with normal hearing. I'm not a Tinnitus victim, only a nerve deafness casualty.

Maybe I should be pondering a new vocation for the inevitable deafness that stalks me. Possibly oil painting. Hmm... a fourth primary color???

It’s been a fun read John. Thanks for participating.

Best, John

Who is that guy Dion's with in the photo? Hmm...

John, it is interesting how much learning affects our perception and appreciation of music. "Our' scale is partly very arbitrary. Quite amazing actually how much our comfort with this scale is learned and learned deeply.

Tom

Good point about the "deeply" Tom!

Although I pride myself on ignoring the rules, my music education is so deeply embedded in my brain that I probably follow the rules without realizing it.

John

There are no limitations but ours. You can tune a string to an infinite amount of pitches between C and C#, but you just can't hear the difference on the smaller intervals. There is an infinite number of points in time between two beats set at 240 beats per minute, but we just can't sense the difference when it gets close.

But, take heart.

All style comes from limitation.

That's why genres come and go.

Jazz progressed to the point where it could go no further with bebop. Who could play faster? With more notes? So it lost the listeners.

The trick is to be B.B.King. To play one note and have anyone in the world recognize you.

Just a thought,
Is infinity even possible? If you can measure something, then by definition isn't it a finite thing? Can't there only be a certain distance between 0 and 1 even if we don't have the tools to measure it?

You can measure infinity, you just never stop measuring.

Think of it this way. Take a line between 0 and 1 inches long. Then find the half way point. Then take the line between 0 and .5 inches long. Then find the half way point. Then take a line between 0 and .25 inches long. Then find the half way point. Keep doing this.

Call me when it becomes impossible to find the point. You will call me in infinity.

More on infinity.

.000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000005

can still be divided in half. It never reaches the point where it can no longer be divided in half. That is infinity. It is the point where all parallel lines intersect. It is the point where everything becomes nothing and nothing becomes everything. Infinity can not be divided in half.

Zero is not infinity. Nothing relies on something to exist. Infinity is where all is nothing and nothing is all. The infinitely small and the infinitely large are the same.

We are amazing. We can grasp the concept of infinity without attaining it. It is where there is no consciousness...and all consciousness.

There are no limitations but ours. You can tune a string to an infinite amount of pitches between C and C#, but you just can't hear the difference on the smaller intervals - Mike

Those infinite pitches are still within the box Mike. What I've been pondering are new half-tones out of the box. Again, just pondering.

John

In infinity, there is no box. Everything is within and without it. It is we, who put ourselves either in it or out of it.

Also Pondering,
Mike

Well then Mike, you have just disproven the concept of zero. Because If you can keep dividing to infinity then there can be no such entity as 0. That is unless 0=infinity.

Also just pondering, not pontificating.

Also as an aside, you can't have an end to time because if infinity exists then time is also subject to it' laws.

I agree with you Argo. I've debated this infinity issue before. Many mathematicians consider 1/infinity = “0”. I’ve actually been aggressively insulted for saying different.

I'm not a mathematician so I didn't understand their complex equations that proves it ends up “0”, but common sense tells me it will never end. I’ve been told that common sense has nothing to do with it.

John

Infinity = Wow! That's a lot!

What's half of nothing? (Almost something)!

How many grains of sand are there on earth?, (I don't know, for something keeps making more in the spot I was just counting last week, so I have to start over). Ok,,,1,2,3......)

How far can I throw a baseball? (Around the earth forever if I could just get this damn thing up high enough! Gravity gets in the way,,,worse than wind)!

How high does the sky go? (From where? Here or China)?

I think of music much like my theory of a Spiral Universe. We start at some point, then we keep spinning our heads round and round, forever expanding our egos and skills, and at an ever increasing speed. Then we say, "Wait a minute! Let me see what that beginning has to offer now, and start from there, adding in any spirals for dynamics.

It's all about curves! That makes it easier to see our starting point, if we keep our eyes on where we came, while enjoying all the spirals as we travel, in music and life.

I "guess"!

Wow, nice thought provoking thread!! Music possibilities become damn near infinite by the time you get to 20 notes with option of pitch, instruments, rests, timing, etc...

John S..1/sideways 8=0 is an approximation. Damn near close to zero, but its still SOMETHING (just not much)

John D....I always thing of those troubling spirals as curves. You always intend to leave something (situation, home town, etc..) in a straight line. But always come back at some point. I guess it would be considered an orbit.

0 is not infinity. Zero extends into infinity. It is infinite. Zero is nothing. Infinity is nothing+everything. Zero is half of infinity

Now I do have a headache.

0 is proof for how ridiculous measurements of infinity is For Man, infinity is just another horizon, and we think we can follow the 12' note trail to get there..

Infinity.....well we look/measure as far as we can and when we can see no further we have to stop looking/measuring...that is infinity. We can only imagine or theorize what lies beyond.
We live but a century, if we are very lucky, that is like a speck of dust in the universe.....and the things we can see is still like only a tiny speck of dust in the universe.
Rather than wasting time pondering about how big infinity is we should be making the best of our lives and the lives of others.

YES!,,,And to the Infinity of "Best"!

Ha!

Rather than wasting time pondering about how big infinity is we should be making the best of our lives and the lives of others - Jim

I imagine some of the great inventors used some pondering in their creative process. I think it's a great past time. If one can ponder it, maybe one can create it.

Probably better than watching TV. Though this topic expanded further out-of-the-box of the original post. Though I also find "Infinity" interesting.

John

Interesting thread for a rather bland day..
If I'm not mistaken, Yoko Ono found some "Out of the box" notes on some of earlier recordings and the Moody Blues were always in search of "The Lost Chord"

Leonardo Devinci used ponder while walking and look how he turned out.

Steve

Einstein too. Pondered up a bomb! Now that's some serious pondering!

John...

My father (who is tone deaf) used to try and sing occasionally and came up with sonic marvels I could not replicate on any keyboard....while I am not sure these are the lost tones you may be looking for I can surely say they were lost on me...lol.

Interesting thread.

Larry