JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Demo quality

i'm sure this has been asked a million times and I do apologize. Just how important is the Demo quality? What are the odds of getting a cut from just an at home ruff studio production?

But a high quality demo is only one of several necessary parts to getting a cut. It starts with a great song and includes good relationships with the people who decide on what songs get cut.
A ruff demo has its place, just not at the point where the song is pitched to the final deciders.

Thanks Mike

Brandon,

It is probably the most important question asked. And as many opinions as you can imagine. Just look at it like this. The people who make the decisions on what gets cut in this day and age are most often writer's themselves and do their own demos on songs before they get cut.They run publishing companies. They are artists. They are producers. They are involved in record companies. They have spent years being in the business and earning their way to the table.

THEY have to do great, radio sounding demos to play for even more people that go into making a decision. In today's music market there are DOZENS of people making decisions on any project. And most projects lose money. So every one has to agree. And EVERYONE HAS COMPETING INTERESTS.

So if you are not playing the game by the rules that THEY establish, what is it that makes you think you can compete by doing less than they do themselves?

Read a lot of other posts around here. There are a LOT of conversations going on about this and similar subjects. Then at the end of the day, put yourself in the shoes of people who listen to hundreds and thousands of songs all the time. What is going to get and keep your attention? A well written song, with a great sounding demo? Or a mediocre song, or even a well written song, but with a rough demo that does not match up, thereby turning that song off after a very short time?

Listen to a LOT of songs and the answer is self evident.

MAB

Thanks Marc your advice is always very appreciated.

Hi Brandon

Mike is so right about that.

Ya know what part of the catch is? People learning how all these things move along and grow together.

In other words, often it works like this, not so solid writing, not so solid playing, not so solid production, better writing, better playing, better production.
Good writing, good playing, good production.
GREAT writing Great playing, Great Production.....

These things often seek out and find each other. BUT!! often times things get mixed up and thrown off in uncertainty this often happens when combination's come together.

Writers who don't really play basically NEVER record, so how are they to know what's happening in that world. Costly world too..

Many PLAYERS think because they can play they can write commercially appealing songs. Ah wrong So they invest but don't have the appropriate material.

Also players & player writers can feel, well I have a computer so I can record, I'm an engineer and perhaps a Producer as well.

That is why Mike D is always talking about "team" who's your team? And then you have the whole "pitching world (the impossible) to deal with.

How do I know this? Because I have destroyed myself, financially,
mentally and physically finding out & doing ALL of it.

Quality of demo to anyone who can REALLY help you get a cut or succeed at a higher level of business.
Like Mike said starts with quality of song then there on...

But even a song that is very say, musically lacking to MANY can still be a TREMENDOUS hit if it is PRODUCED great and contemporary. That old saying you can't make gold from garbage or polish a turd is just that an OLD cliche, that was yesterday when the song you had to beat or equal was "Cat's In The Cradle" good luck with that lol. The radio TODAY is LOADED with proof of the otherwise.

PRODUCTION is probably the most important aspect in Popular music today, no not probably definitely.
As long as it fits the most popular genre's and that genre is hip hop by the way. Sound HIP and you are definitely in right direction.

But basically that quality of demo or production is the equal to the clothes you were and hair and appearance you bring to your most important jog interview.
First impressions are HUGE!! Don't make a good song sound bad!

Don't forget the vocal is HUGE, make sure it is right for the song, and in tune. A bad vocal DESTROYS songs to most human beings. Don't buy into that "See/hear past the vocal nonsense"

Don't count on ANYBODY to see or hear past ANYTHING!

The quality of your songs,you or anything is represented by that Demo. Always make it count!

Thanks Jp friend =)

I'll keep it short but emphatic, Brandon. If you're looking to get a commercial cut, it's EVERYTHING! There's just too much competition for anything less. Hope this helps!
-Dave

If a guy turns up for a job interview unwashed, unshaven, and wearing scruffy clothes would you give him the job?
So what makes anybody think that a rough home demo will get you the gig when you are competing against pros who spend thousands on demos?

Not only do you need a top drawer demo but more important you need to know what song to demo and who exactly to pitch it to.
It goes without saying that a rough demo comes from someone who does not know the business and probably cannot write decent songs. You will only if you are very lucky get one shot.....make the most of it.
(Do not know why I typed this. I could have just cut and pasted this reply from all the others on the same subject)

Great post Sir James.

There are always new people that read these. Never hurts to re-interate.

MAB

Actually the word 'demo' doesn't really exorcist anymore.. everything is now called 'records'.. the point doesn't need to be spelled out

Had a demo ever been released on a major recording?

Well I can't prove it but if you ever listen to Faron Young's recording of ALONE WITH YOU, you would swear it is a demo. I think the song was written by Roy Drusky with some help from Faron and one more.

How good does a demo need to be? Good enough to sell the song. A good demo if not what someone is looking for at the time will be passed over so don't thing a demo was what had the song rejected.

Demos have been used in the past. There used to not be as many demos. The technilogical age ushered that in. The same way as television sitcoms will have a pilot before they order more episodes. Everything is test marketed.

Everything is about hedging your bets.

The two biggest questions asked from people outside a major music center like Nashville are:
"Why is it co-writing is so important? What if you don't co-write?" (two takes on the same questions)
and:
"Why do you have to have such good demos if they are going to redo the song? Can't they hear it?"

Here is the answer to both.

For around 11 years now, Jeffery Steele has set the bar on Nashville songwriting. Last year I caught an interview with him. At that time (around May) he had had 187 cuts, 90 singles and 11 number ones. He has controlled the charts for about that entire time with rarely a week going by that he didn't have something high up on the charts.

If you have ever seen Jeffery you know that he is a great looking guy, great musician, great writer, great singer, monsterous entertainer (5 hour Bruce Springsteen type shows) He knows EVERYBODY and every artist beat a path to his door to hear the newest Jeffery song.

If you look at his list of songs you find he doesn't solo write anything. Everything is co-written, and has been since the beginning of his career. Yet, he writes with TONS of people and almost all of them turn out pretty well. So I would say he is the strong link.

Jeffery does full, radio ready demos on anything he pitches. They sound almost Exactly like the final product that comes out.

Why co-write or do great sounding demos?

Because the leader of the pack does. That is why. That is called
where the bar is."

MAB

PS: And I am not the one who says this. The presidents of four major record companies have all said this. He made them reset their own bars.

Marty Robbins didn't co-write. In fact when he was first approached the person doing the signing wanted Marty to sing other songs. Marty said he had better songs than the ones he was given. Then the person wanted to put his name on Marty's songs as a co-writer. Marty told his band to pack up, they were going home. He was signed. He didn't put anyone elses names on his songs.

I think co-writing is only important if the writers are somewhat weak when writing alone. It may only be important in getting more access to someone hearing your song and then when in a Music Center such as Nashville. Of course if you can co-write with an Artist it may be an advantage.

Most Major Artists wrote very few songs but cut songwriter's songs. Merle Haggard probably don't co-write much.

I would be happy to give up some of my rights to my songs if an Artist asks. However all of my songs are only written by me, no co-writer's.

Ray,

Then you have yourself to pitch and ally yourself. That is it. That is 1970's thinking and ingnores the entire way the town is constructed. Music Row is a bunch of small and medium sized houses next door to each other to foster the "Neighborhood" effect of writer's, artisans, publishers,record companies, etc. That is the reason for the Music Row.
If you look throughout history, particularly in the past 20 years (I moved in 1988 and it was more than prevalant then) you will find almost NO solo writing. And in the environment of now, you are not going to get a song into the inner circles over an arists, producer or the like's personal interests. Not going to happen.
So if you want to keep that attitude, it is fine. But people who want to really do this need to look at reality of life. With that attitude, you will probably not find many artist's that ask. They are too busy writing themselves.

MAB

Marc,
I think there are two things about co-writing. One, good, one bad. While two heads are better than one, (they are, aren't they?), in a close enviroment such as Nashville you may be able to write better songs, but two, everything begins to sound the same. A producer may listen to a bunch of good songs and pass on all of them because there is nothing fresh in the whole bunch!

I once heard Joe Diffie say he went thru every song in Nashville ans say he could find nothing he liked.

It is hard to write a good song co-writing or not. I would like to visit a Publisher sometime and listen to a good selection of songs he has signed. I think it's true that most songs have been written by more than one writer but not neccessarily with the Artist.

A few years back Scooter Crusoe broke out the mold when Kenny Chesney recorded Anything But Mine. It's one of my favorite Chesney tunes. Crusoe wrote it by himself.

Of writers who are not artists with major deals, Hugh Prestwood is about the only one I know of in the last twenty years to build a good career without co-writing.

I find it interesting that almost every artist, every writer, you guys mention is in the past 10-20-30 years ago range.

I started out just a bit ago saying the top of the list is Jeffery Steele with nearly 200 songs cut, multiple number ones, tons of cuts. But like always, the response is "in 1968 Marty Robbins, did this and so on and so on."

You also mention people like Hugh, whom I like, but hasn't exactly had a rash of cuts in the past few years and if you want to hear some negativity on the Row, you can hear him talk about it.

I can't tell you guy what to do with your writing or your careers. I can tell you what the industry is now and has been for about the past 20 years. You can always bring out exceptions and make pronouncements. It is easy to do. The closer you get to it, the harder it is to make blanket statements.

You can all do what you feel you need to. A lot of people are trying to do that. They all have the same chance. They have the Internet and they have the ability to "go it alone."

To each his or her own.

MAB

I do not think it matters whether a song is cowritten or solo written. It is the quality of the song that counts. There has been some great songwriting duos both in the past and at present.
There has also been some great teams and also solo writers.
I think that people should concentrate on their own strengths. Some are great lyricists, some musicators, some are just good all rounders. It is what works best for the individual that counts. Some people are team players whilst others are loners.
The important thing about cowriting is to find people whose strengths match the others weaknesees. No point in having two great lyricists who cannot compose music or two great musicators who cannot write lyrics.

Big Jim: I don't think MAB's "insistence" on co-writing has anything to do with the "quality of the song". Quality is a given, a must. Co-writing is all about relationships, getting more folks involved and having more things cooking on the stove. Plus, if the marketplace is almost 100% "writing artist" driven, you HAVE to co-write if you are not the artist.

Having said that, I think co-written songs have a better chance to be great that solo written stuff (non-artist). Why? It helps get the writer out of his own mind and helps see things from different angles. Yea, a solo person can do that -- but co-writing forces it.

Oh, this thread was about demo quality -- sorry.

Kevin

My take on this is that a good artist can evaluate a song based on its merits and can imagine how it would sound if he or she recorded it his own way. However, to get the song to well known artists, it has to go through layers of suits who have to screen and approve the demo. And the suits do not want to listen to crummy recordings all day long. So your best bet may be to connect with local up and coming artists and see if you can get them interested.

It is all a revolving circle.

If you have a solo written song with no allies, you are trying to get that song access to people over their own intersets. In this day and age, that is doubtful to happen. So you have a song for yourself.

If you have a song with a poor quality demo, it doesn't measure up to current industry standards and what your competition are doing. It is the equvilant of an Amish horse and buggy on today's Interstates and freeways.

If you have no constituants within machines, artists on the ground floor, publishers, producers, pluggers, people who are ahead of you in line, who will put you ABOVE their own interests, you stay where you are.

If you cannot demonstrate a way to create econmic activity for other people as well as yourself, you have no incentive for people to put you into the ball game.

Those are the facts of life.

Everyone has the right, responsibility to write what they want to.
No one has the right to be heard.
Everyone has the ability to go where their talents, drive and determination take them.

No one has to embrace that drive.

It is about creating a situation where as other people embrace you as much as you do.

Without all of those things, you are not in the game and just writing for yourself.

For some people, that is enough.

MAB

Ah, Yes,
I do agree that if a Producer has his own songs he wants an Artist to record he may drop yours in the nearest circular file so he don't have to compete with those other songs. I have no doubt it happens more often than you think. So you would have an inside track if you can write with the Artist. But very few have that opportunity so we have to rely on other means. Any way you look at it it is hard to get heard or placed. But I think most aren't going to give up just like that person that got signed with Big Machine Records. I think Staff writing positions are a lot less than they were a decade ago. And if you can't produce the hits your staff writing position won't last long.

Somewhen from this area got a staff writing opportunity several years ago. They said you couldn't bring in material you had already written but had to write from scratch, with other writers. Keep plugging.

I'm wondering how much Jeffrey Steele's success is a matter of developing co-writers' songs from mediocrity of lyric, or melody, or construction, or production, to higher quality.

Probably, many of the songs credited as his successes began in the heads of co-writers, and Jeffrey knew what to do with them.

Co-writing can be an excellent modus operandi if the co-writers are open-minded, and one or both truly know what is 'wrong' and what is 'right' in the many aspects of a song. I've seen people attempt to co-write who have no reason for the things they offer, merely rhyming without adding anything to the storyline, or failing to, losing the rhythm of a lyric, repeating ideas already expressed in previous lines, contradicting a concept, sometimes THE concept of the song with a line that is the opposite of what the storyline is leading to; many mistakes.

And then, rather than see why those are mistakes, they often defend those choices with an in-depth explanation that might work fine if listeners heard all that along with the song. But they don't. It all has to be in the song, clear, concise, 100 words or less (so-to-speak) with no explanatory foot-notes.

Co-writing can help you learn how to write your solo work, how to see things from other points of view, which enables you to assume the character of the singer, becoming the drifter, the lonely one, the joyful one, the angry one, the philosopher, anything a human can be and sing about.

There are great songs that were the product of one mind, great songs co-written by two, three, and more people. Getting involved in co-writes can be a great learning experience, or a pain in the (body part of choice here). It's what you bring to it, and what you take away from it that matters. Even an unsuccessful co-write can enrich your skills and open your mind to new things that may help you succeed, in commercial terms, and in your solo-writing. Don't be afraid to try it. It's not like you're committed forever, or changed forever, or married to it. It's just more experience you can benefit from.

Well said, Gary! That's excellent advice to anyone aspiring to become all he / she can be as a songwriter. Thanks for sharing your insight!

-Dave

Gary,

I would say that Jeffery's success is much the same as Wiesman, Rutherford, and almost everyone else in the game. He is able to find a way to say things differently than most people out there. He will be the first to tell you a lot of his hits started with mediocre ideas. It was his ability to find the ordinary part of that and make it extrodinary.

It was passed on to him from the co-writing process and he now passes it on. For years, a guy named Chris Wallin was around town working hard and writing songs. But he didn't have anything that quite "cut through above the other things out there."
Then he got together with Anthony Smith and Jeffery, they wrote "I'm Tryin'" for Trace Atkins and that opened up a huge stream of hits.

Did he have the "stuff" before? Probably. but something needed to unlock it and put it in the "right place, right song, right time." The co-writing process, coupled with the right demo process, and the right connections, are all needed to unlock that in anyone.

Usually there are "pivot" points that add to that process and from there it seems like nothing that writer can do is wrong. A lot is perception, but perception is often reality.

I think I got this thread hijacked from the original intent, the "demo quality,"but it is actually related. If a wrriter has well written songs accompinied by a strong ralatable demo, it "ups the level of his or her's odds."

Without a great demo, it limits the places that song can go. But without a very strong or great song, the greatest demo in the world is not going to be able to save it.

MAB

Today I heard a disc jockey broadcasting from the Country Radio Seminar in Nashville. One of his guests was a woman whose name I can't recall. She has a new album out on a major label but he didn't have a copy of it so he asked her to sing acapella. I thought about this thread because I likened her singing to a simple demo. I've heard the MySpace version of the song and believe me, there is a BIG noticeable enjoyable difference!

I wish it was that easy. Would be a lot more fun. I was at CRS on Wed. and if you saw the 10,000 people all shoved into space fit for around 200 you would realize how many people are all trying to do the same thing, how many filters are involved up and down in every way shape and form and why everything has to be done at the quality it has to be done.

The demo is what represents you when you are not there. when you have a "hold" on a song, that is just meaning that song is going ot be played for someone else or dozens of someone else's in line of ascention before even getting near the artist. So the demo reflects what has to be done. and everyone else is doing it also. That is what has to be kept in mind.

MAB

I think I do understand to some extent how CRS works. My words were more a commentary on the "fancy demo" vs. "simple demo" issue than on anything involving CRS.

The important thing about a demo is to make yours as near to the finished article as possible. If the finished song will be aimed at a simple guitar voc performance then the demo should be a quality produced and performed guitar voc. If the song is a full production with all the bells and whistles then make sure the demo contains all the bells and whistles. Marc is quite correct.... gone are the days when people heard beyond a simple amateur rendition of a song. With so much competition producing radio ready demos you have to compete on an even playing field by making your demo as good and professional as possible like the many other thousands submitted by the competition. It is worth noting though that few big hits nowadays are just simple guitar vocs. Most big hits are production driven rather than relying on just melody lyrics and a simple performance.

Hey Jim,

Hope you are feeling better. Met a guy from England last night on a show I did down here in Fla. and thought about you. Was wondering how you are doing.

Jim's comments are spot on. A part I like to mention about demos are that you have to think of it past just that one particular song. A demo in this day is our overall business card. Everything is a My Space, Face Book moment.

And with everything going back and forth among countries, all over the world, you never know where your music will end up or what connection that might make for future songs or contacts. A friend of mine got five cuts from a group in Texas. She lives in Wisconsin. And now she has a writing deal with one of the top Nashville publishing companies.

Another aspect in this day and age is the propensity for artists to like to "try something out" first before they committ to recording. If they can get their voice on something and see how they sound, it is another edge that might help in the long run. Having a backing "track mix". If you have a mix of the music with no vocals, a singer might want to take a stab at recording his or her vocals to that track to see how it feels, if the key is right, etc.

And in some cases, that song could go as a pitch for a new artist which might make a later project. I have experienced several things myself and in actual hit songs, where a singer had an attachement to it early, recorded a version. Got a deal and then as they got more successful, ended up re-recording that for a later project.

So there are a lot of ways that you have to look at demos that extend past that one individual song. Like everything, look at it all as one part of a larger whole on your career.

MAB

Well,
I am reminded of the old saying, I WILL DAZZLE THEM WITH FOOTWORK. I do wonder how many times a Excellent Demo sells a not so ready song that gets released and then bombs.

I am against providing tracks for any artist. If they are serious then they should be ready to do it all from scratch. Of course there are a lot of "Hangers On" that want a part of the product even if it ultimently proves unsucessful.

I invarably caution against spending huge amounts of money on demos. If the song is what someone is looking for the basic demo will suffice. A Publisher will want something more Pro sounding but probably won't want to spend any money on another demo. As is always recommended, if you can't sing some and get a good basic demo made of your songs get a demo service to do it for you. Don't spend more than $300.00.

guys like Bob DiPiero, Jeffrey Steele, Gary Nicholson, Chuck Cannon...hell their demos are often better than the cut version an artist ends up releasing...by the way that's our competition in the real music world and all things equal they still win
real hope = write great songs, make great, tight, well produced demos and work the relationships in the business equally hard, face to face
be well...mj

Ray,

I guess you are talking to different people than I have. I know of about 15 people who ended up getting cuts and hits when a new singer used their tracks and the song ended up getting cut. They didn't like the singer but liked the song. And I haven't seen the cheap demo route work in about 20 years.

The people Moke just mentioned, Steele, Wiseman, and about every other major writer out there do huge demos. I was just at a Taxi session in Nashville where the subject was this very issue. As well as almost every panel and private discussion I have been around for years, the subject comes up. The demos are as competitive because of the amount of competition in the market, and you are competing with the artist's themselves and their inner circles.

I guess it just depends on your background and who knows you. But I would never suggest anyone try to pitch anything but a great sounding demo. Just one more reason to be filtered out.

MAB

I agree with Marc 100% and more if possible! You simply have to have a top notch song and demo to compete with the level of competion you're up against.

-Dave

I cannot say I agree with much of that. A lot of music nowadays is production driven and songs tend not to be of the lyrical and melodic quality of yesteryear. So a lot of hit songs anyway are all packaging and no content. That said there is no point in sending a demo song that contains little packaging. It will be thrown in the bin as IMHO most modern day singers and producers cannot tell crap from class. They only hear production.
I am also against providing songs for other artists as I write for myself. However not everyone can say that and people pitch songs to artists beacause that is the only way to get a hit or make any money. It should also be noted that a lot of songwriters cannot perform well but can still write good hit songs to be sung and performed by others. They rely on great demos and must speculate to accumulate.
To provide a less than top notch demo say something about the songwriter and to me it says amateur. It goes without saying that any songwriter should do homework and only pitch to people who will be responsive to the song. In other words do not demo a song unless it is worth demoing and you have a potential buyer. Then spend what it takes to get it across.
Manufacturers spend millions on advertising cause there is the potential to make millions. Why should songwriters spend pennies on demos yet expect to make millions?
Despite demos being radio ready you will find that most top stars WILL produce their version from scratch. However it does no harm to provide them with a finished article as well.
I cannot stress enough that this business is so competetive, audiences and producers are fickle so do not give any excuses for your song to be rejected.

Well,
Can a demo be good if it is just a singer with no music? Can a demo be good if it is acompanied with just Piano or Guitar? Who decides what a good demo is?

I don't talk to nobody Marc. When I sit down to write a song I am on my own. I had better write a professional song or it will get no attention. When a Record Label/Producer/Artist decides to record an album I expect them to be professional. If they can't do it then I am unable to help them. I can't be there when they take the stage to do a performance. I can't go into the studio with them and hold their hand. They better be big boys, well you said it yourself a number of times, or they better fold their tent and go home. When those songs go thru all those "Filters" are those "Movers and Shakers" professionals or am I the only one?

Big Jim when I send out a song it is there. It is ready to be taken to that next stage. I don't have to make any excuses for the song even if it is only my Guitar/Vocal. As I understand it most if not all the above named writer's co-write. If you can co-write with an artist it improves your chances of getting on a release. My songs have to stand on their own. If they are rejected chances are it wasn't quite what they were looking fo at present.

Did I tell you My Publisher got requests for two more of his songs. Things are happening.

These threads always seem to end up in a rut. Quality is good, co-writing is good, yes. Why? Because quality is good, and cowriting is needed to expand your network.

Nashville is a traditional meriocracy. If you are writing good songs at a professional (writing songs artists would want) level, you can move up through cowriting with songwriters that are closer to a cut, and thereby get closer to a cut yourself. That's the game, and you are probably facing a 7-10 year perspective if you are just starting out (and you are continuously learning and adapting to commercial needs). It can happen from outside town, but not very likely in the good songwriters circles. There's simply no incentive for those in Nashville, as all the knowledge you'll need is already there. So coming from the outside, you need to be respectful, cause otherwise you'd be looked upon like you are stealing the more and more scarce market shares of getting songs to artists.

Other routes can be to write songs that great that you get to write with staff writers (not just in Nashville, but anywhere), and at that route get to write with Nashville writers, and eventually get a cut. Time perspective is probably the same.

That's not only the Nashville game anymore, it's the standard throughout all of music business (it's really not that big worldwide, if you count decision makers).

No matter what and where, you need to be able to write commercially strong and sound songs, and in the first place, not to get cuts, but to build a portfolio that'll enable you to cowrite with songwriters with better and better networks.

So, if you are writing alone, and aiming for cuts without netwoking, you are actually trying to rob the bank without doing the work. The work is cowriting, not just writing. Philosphically it's way more sound to share than to go solo, as it raises your potential energy levels (which is needed to not block success). Even here in Denmark most songs are cowritten, it's the same all over the world. The loners just don't make it anymore within the established business circles. You can go indie of course, many do, but I often find a lot of complainers in those circles, just robbing your creative energy, getting nowhere, and getting more and more bitter. Some like to play the lottery and some like the knowledge games. Personally I'm a knowledge guy.

If you are serious, you got to play the games as they are, not as you'd like them to be. That's something you should have learned as a kid. Also, learning a new game is half the fun - when you get too good at it, it tends to become boring.

And what does this have to do with demo quality? Well, all of this IS actually part of a good quality demo recording. It needs to be cowritten and commercially sound to have any momentum, no matter how pro it sounds. A good quality demo needs to be done by good musicians, sure. If you are one, you CAN do it from home. Being a good musician isn't about playing with lightning speed and making clean, well balanced recordings, it's also a knowledge game. It's knowing your genre, knowing what works, knowing what doesn't, doing things with taste, and work for the SONG, not for the publisher, a&r guy ect.

Actually, there are quite few demostudios capable of this too, so any 'professional' studio can't deliver competitive demos. I've heard a lot of studio's work, that I belive just doesn't cut it. Especially in the lower region of rates. So you can't always just expect to lay down your money and get a killer demo, without doing proper research. You can pay 2000$ to get a good representation of your song, and you want to pitch it to say Miranda Lambert or someone, you phrased the melody so it matches Miranda's style, and then you want a contemporary country sounding demo, because that what you think she's about.

Then you get a great sounding track back with a good backbeat, not realizing that Miranda wants songs with a straight Waylon groove for her next record. Your demo wouldn't stand a chance if the groove for the artist is wrong, so your 2000$ on a fabulous sounding contemporary country demo is wasted, as your phrasing of the melody needs to be redone, to pitch it for another artist.

So, yes, good demo quality is eh.. good. But good is relative to who you are pitching to.

If you are a great musician yourself, and is on top of the knowledge and networking games, then you'll have great opportunities if you are doing your own demos, because then you can adapt your demos to your pitches in a whim. Today you really have no business in the music business, if you are not a great musician yourself or are a writer with relations to great musicians IMO. There are many contenders that don't, and they need to play it really smart to get ahead.

So, better than spending a million $ on vanity demos, that won't go anywhere because the knowledge and network skills are not matching pro level, is getting on top of the networking and knowledge games by listening and learning, and ally yourself with some great musicians that can do the job (you won't believe how many great amateur musicians there are out there), and it's a lot cheaper too, paying someone on the backend with half a copyright, only worth something IF the song (unlikely as it is) ends up being successful.

justmy2c

What rule says that songs have to be cowritten? A great song is a great song regardless of how many write it. I am sure that any producers or artists are only interested in the song fitting their needs and not how many writers were involved.
Why is it always assumed that all roads lead to Nashville? There are other genres and other places that produce huge hits. I am sure the rules are pretty much the same regardless of where a song is pitched. The crucial thing are to produce a quality song that is suitable for the target market, know who to pitch it to and produce a demo that sells the song and you. If people put out second rate songs with third rate demos then that is to their disadvantage and my advantage if I am competing against them.
Ray might be interested to know that the big boys can do pretty much what they want.....They make the rules and all the decisions.....songwriters just have to comply....or suffer the consequences. In order to play by the rules you have to know them first.

Before continuing, I need to make the usual disclaimers, I can't postulate to be an expert - only talk about the strategies I apply myself in the hunt for a career. So I might be very wrong, but have to take my chances. Maybe I should do this before every post, but I think it's kind of redundant when posting in a forum on the Internet.

"What rule says that songs have to be cowritten?"

Knowing that others has a lot more clout to say this, I think that must be a rule of sociological probability :-) No rules without exceptions, but we're talking general strategies for getting a major cut here, and not neccesarily just Nashville.

The music vip's are very few in Denmark as well, so if you want to get ahead, cowriting is just as good a strategy here.

Are you saying it's easier in Scotland?

"Quality" is just a popular buzz-word, and every contender fight over it. It's a premise for everything of this that the songs are commercially competitive, and in that perspective quality for Britney Spears, Taj Mahal and Kenny Rogers are very different beasts.

Back in the days, the word "quality" was singular and reserved for fine art, usually meaning the tastes of the dominant classes. Today the plural pragmatic meaning of 'quality' prevails, meaning if the song works and match the artists/ labels needs at a particular time and gets commercial success, it has the right "qualities". Discussing "quality" in the same sentence of commercial songwriting, just undermines the discussion, because of this.

Im talking commercial songwriting, not poetic justice.

I have never written a co-write song, so I guess I don't stand a chance.

Says the guy with royalty checks coming in from famous tv shows! Less is more, huh..

Everett,

Here's the way I look at it. A songwriter's chances of getting a major cut are very, very small to begin with. First, you need to have an exceptional song...not only an exceptional song, but one that fits what the major labels are seeking...you need that or nothing else matters. Then, doing all these things such as making a good demo, cowriting with established writers, making contacts etc. just increase your chances of getting that song cut. The way I see it, it is like playing the lottery. First you need to buy a ticket to have any chance at all. Then you need to buy more tickets to have a bigger chance.

Doing all these things, demos, cowriting and such, probably does not increase your chances that much. I'll say that again. Doing all these things probably does not increase your chances that much. If you buy two tickets, in my example, your chances may double, but still the chances are very small. Doing all these things may double, triple, quadruple, maybe even up your chances by 1,000%, but still your chances are very small.

But, if you don't buy the ticket...if you don't have the exceptional song that fits what the gatekeepers want...your chances are zero.

That's, IMO, where people need to focus their attention first. The rest of these arguments are less important. If you catch the ear of a major gatekeeper, they'll hook you up with cowriters, help you find a good demo producer, promote you. Then you can decide whether or not you want to increase your chances.

Ray, if your publisher called you and said some famous artist wanted to cowrite with you and he would do a high dollar demo if the song suited him, would you say "No?" I wouldn't. Everyone should keep doing things the way that makes them comfortable and focus on good songs. Once the songs are cutting through the business like a hot knife through butter, then it's time to make these decisions.

Here's a question for eveyone. If you're on tour, are you better buying your own private jet, or leasing one?

Well Mike,
If a Famous Artist wanted to write with me it may say he can't write so well on his own. But I think my songs intimidate those Artists. or, they are laughing themselves silly at my feeble attempts at song writing. I don't know which. They never tell me anything. Well some have called me and asked for more songs. My publisher likes my songs. But what does he know?

Oh a note he indicated to me he may be looking for songs to put in the Library situtation. As most of you know it has to be original material recorded by the writer. I don't have any as all my songs are just demos and not released for a library placement. Things are happening.

Things are no easier in Scotland than elsewhere. Probably in fact things are harder as we do not have the same amount of top producers and studios here than in other places. Most people in Scotland write songs for themselves to perform rather than for other folks. Non performers writing for existing star billing artists seems to be an American thing or maybe even just a Nashville thing. That said the chances of a newbie songwriter or performer breaking into the big time market anywhere are tiny at best. Therefore to stand any chance at all you need to produce great songs with great demos and know how to pitch them to the right people at the right time.
The trash cans of record companies are full of rejected demos and most have not even been listened to.
I have nothing against cowriting and teamwork or even writing for others....in fact I am no stranger to it. My point is that it does not matter too much who writes the songs or even the quality of the demo...the MOST important thing is getting them listened to by the people who make the big decisions. If you do get a ONE IN A MILLION chance to have a song pitched properly to one of those people then make the most of it. Your song must tick all the boxes. It has to be much better than all the rest that have been pitched. It must be of the style required, with a great production demo to stand any chance of a cut. There is no point in doing a demo for pitching if nobody is ever going to listen to it. Nothing sells itself it has to be marketed. The best product is a waste of time and is nothing without being sold and marketed properly.
Serious songwriters must spend more on that aspect...the rest will follow.

PS In answer to Mike's question If I had to worry about whether to rent or buy a jet for my tour then I would have no worries.
My worry right now is who's turn is it to drive the van?

Here we go again. Jim, you know we don't think "all roads lead to Nashville." That is only one part of it but since most music is now self contained, totally written by the artist or the aritst's inner circle, (a trend started in the 60's with the Beatles) there is very little hope of getting a song even heard any more outside of some film, television, the very long shot rock or pop pitches. Nashville and country is one of the last vestiges where there are outside writers. But that is dissapearing as downloading has taken so much money out of the industry.

Songs don't have to be co-written. But relationships have to be built. And having others writing on songs, sharing the costs on demos, helping in pitches, bringing in people to their respective careers which in turn effect your career is essential. Write a song by yourself, and you only have you to pitch it. In this day and age there are just no single entities in any career. You need the publishers, artists, record labels, and having them as a part of it helps.

They have their own interests and songs, artists, etc. so everybody you need are direct competition to what you have. And it is the relationship business. You meet people constantly who you like, get along with and most of the time, that interaction leads to co-writing which intensifies both the quality of songs and the nature of relationships.

All those "gatekeepers" that everyone talks about, were once people on the outside too. They all worked their way in by being a part of something bigger than themselves. Those relationships led to one form of success or another which put them in the position to be a "gatekeeper."

Everything is just one more step. Writing a great song that knocks people out is the biggest thing. Having it written with someone who might be a great artist on the ground floor of his or her career, is another step. Having people who are interested in the artist and the song and refer it to others are another step. Having a great representation on the song that eliminates every excuse from "if we had a great demo of this we could pitch it" to "this needs to be on a web site, or a video done, but we have to get a great recording of it" to "This is an artist we are working with and one of the songs he is recording but it is not a complete demo' and having to play that for money people who are investing in a company that will keep that company afloat to get things out there but are all laywers and accountants and couldn't hear a hit song if it fell on them from the sky, is another part.

Writing a lot of songs with a lot of people, having dozens of pluggers, producers, agents, record promoters, artists, know your work and trust that you will be writing great things, and are writing and interacting with people they know and trust and have made money from , is all part of it.

There just isn't one step. There are hundreds. You are upping the level of your odds at each time. and it is about being flexible and taking advantage of every step as economically as you can.

Ray, if you have backing music tracks for your demos, you have what they are looking for in film and television libraries. They need backing music without vocals for scenes, underlays, technical applications.And they are on a tight time restraint, so there is no time to re-record something. So if you have a great demo you can have one version with vocals for pitching, one with music for film or television.

As far as letting an artist use tracks, I have no problem with it because it is another pitch on the song. I have 2 songs signed at Sony music now because the artist I was working with last year, Frankie Ballard, sang to two of my tracks on my songs. He was signed to a writing deal there and now an artist deal with Warner Brothers and has his first single coming out in May. The companies are interested in everything he has written and recorded and two of my songs are subsequently there because he recorded them for his first CD that I did with him. And one of the songs of mine has been pitched to other artists on that label.

Another writer I work with just signed a major publishing deal with Taylor Swift's company (told you a lot of people benefit from that girl) and several of the demos I did with her, including two songs that we wrote with a current artist signed over there, are involved in her deal. Those artists, the duo Steel Magnolia, are at number 15 on the charts this week. My client has the second single that is already on top of the I tunes charts.

So nothing HAS to be done. You don't have to co-write. You don't have to do good demos. You don't have to spend money, time or anything.It can work in a variety of different ways.
Everett got a song on the Today show, a very famous TV show here. Big Jim has built a career playing music, and does fine where he is. Ray, you have your publishing contacts that you use and work fine for you. I am not really talking to any of you.

My concern on any and all of these posts, are that people who might be newcomers, people that might have been spending money unwisely, chasing dead ends, hitting roadblocks, see a broad variety of thoughts and experiences. Each person has to decide on what to do on their own benefits, and it helps when you hear from other people who might have already made some mistakes that you can avoid.

I talk Nashville because that is where I live and work. I talk about modern country music because the format has expanded and with all it's challenges is a pretty cool place to be involved in. I talk about demos, co-writing and the process of publishers, pluggers, artists, etc. because it is what I know and have been involved with and where most writers who participate in things like this end up trying to either come to or find a way into. And for everybody that might have their own processes, there is a Polly Hagar, Bob Cushing, Magne or others that might be trying their hands at writing, recording, dealing with other countries, or doing a writer's night that I have been involved with for a long time.

There are no rules. Just some strong suggestions. Mine is one perspective, not the end all. I have an opinion backed up by practical experience. Some of those work. Some don't. I just want to keep people from wasting a lot of time and money on things that other's have failed in. To me, that is what being a part of a community like this is about. Helping your friends be the best they can be.

MAB

We're talking wannabe strategies here. Not much of this is relevant for writers with vip contacts and a superhighway to decisionmakers in the muzz bizz. They can pretty much do whatever they want.

But for the rest of us, concerning the subject on demo quality, I think there are put way too much faith in studio demos. Cause like Jim and many other states, nobody is actually listening.

Demo quality is important, sure, but only for those who gets their songs considered by artists, and that means a very exclusive club of the top of the line songwriters.

Basically, demo quality is just a strategy to get professionals to listen to your work.

The reason the thread slides into discussing co-writing as a strategy, is just because of this. 'Pitching' songs is just not a reliable strategy for getting songs into the market. It's highly unlikely an outsider will ever get a song cut in the record industry, just by submitting it to a listing or having a publisher pitching it.

In the tv/film business it seem to be a lot more likely to get 'first contact' as an outsider, so to speak. And if you go though organizations like Taxi, they can be a shortcut to get a network, but you'll still need great quality songs (in the meaning, they fulfill a demand in the market) and great demos (or 'broadcast quality' songs).

But to get song on commercially released records, the network coming from co-writing needs to be an accompanying strategy to great songs with great demos. If you truly are a great writer, parts of your copyrights will be a valued commodity for others. I've had a couple co-writing contracts where the one who's instrumental in getting the cut is getting 75% of the publishers share, and as I see it, the extra 25% is a great incentive to be very active in promoting the song. Business is about creating win-wins. Your songs aren't worth anything anyway, on the shelf.

Think about having a product, but no one to sell it to, or a bad presentation to show it with.. it's just unthinkable, you'll get ahead. Songwriting is about excelling in all of these three basic requirements at the same time:

- Great songs (raw material)
- Great networks (co-writers ect.)
- Great presentations ('demos')

If you have two of these, no matter which, and still don't get anywhere, working on making the third, is the way forward. And most likely one writer can't get to the top on all of this at the same time, even more a reason to collaborate and co-write.

Mike, I think leasing might be the way to go. I would let the band lease the jet, and I would work my way over for the ride, as the Steward.

Wow here is a first........put it down in history...I agree 100% with Marc....I also agree with Magne.

You have to do what it takes to get a deal.....Marketing and networking is as important or now maybe even MORE important than the quality of the song or the demo that is being marketed.

The best song in the world is no good if it is just gathering dust on a shelf whilst pretty crappy stuff will get cut if backed and marketed properly.

Well if I was in Nashville and had the opportunity to write/work with/assoicate with all music types maybe I would have more to work with. I think my first attempt at songwriting was on Guam in the early 60's. So I had to go where life took me etc. And to be sure it is A LONG ROAD TO TIPPEREARY and maybe even a longer Road to Nashville thru all those obsticles.

Big Jim,

We all actually agree much more than we dissagree. We all believe that the song is the most important thing. It is the intracacies on songs that we dissagree with mostly. And the business things we talk about are all from our individual tastes and experiences. That is why there is no really right or wrong answers, just opinions.
and since none of us own record labels or are big publishers, artists, or even monster can't miss writers (in the eyes of the industry) we often see things out there that don't meet our personal standards, but who the Hell are WE? Most of us don't even buy today's music, so it doesn't make differences.

Ray, my suggestion to you and anyone is to use resources around you to make up for geographic, age, or whatever that might challenge you. My principal business is working with people who DON'T live in Nashville, and some that don't even make trips. But they do connect through various ways, the Internet being chief among them, that helps them bridge those gaps.

In the example I have given on the school teacher from Wisonsin, she now has a writing deal, and is being paid to write and make her trips by a major company while still living in Wisconsin. It is because she made the best of her trips, connected with quite literally hundreds of people who are now representing her while she is not there.

And at the end of the day I want to stress one thing I say over and over. I am NEVER interested in someone getting hit songs, becoming stars, making lots of money. Those are all by products that happen sometimes but is not a prerequesent. I am interested in people interacting with each other, make cool music, make more friends and finding the best way on their respective journeys. I just think that all of that is easier done the more you work with other people,get outside of yourself, and the more you build your friends, your catalogues and your knowledge, and then share that with others passing it forward.

That is my total intention. Because of things like this, I know a guy in Scotland, who I might not always agree with, but feel I am better for knowing him and always makes me think of all sides of an equation.
I know a guy from Denmark who seems to know more about Nashville and the industry than many people who run publishing companies and always has an interesting way of saying things.
I meet people out who come to Nashville and might have picked up a tip or two from something I said and they make a point to contact me and invite me to their shows.

And through me I would like to think people know they have a friend more than an adversary. I am never pollyanna, "everything is beautiful" about the industry, the people in it, or a lot of the material that passes for songs that are out there. I hate a lot of it, consider it amateur and agree with most of you on a lot of things in society as a whole that have brought so many things down. I know it first hand. My overall point is that I can't do anything about that. So I try to focus on things I think can make a difference and will help.

At the end of the day, sometimes I may sound like a "one note horse" about nashville and country, but I am actually just talking about the entire process of writing and the struggle to get heard.

That is all that I ever ask that people keep in mind when I say things.
MAB