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Polly, the monthly mentoring was stopped because people seemed to lose interest for one reason or another. Unfortunately, I only discovered it shortly before the section was closed.

However, perhaps Brian would see fit to resurrect that possibility if enough people here requested it. I think that section used to be within the Mentor Questions Forum. I might have been the last or one of the last to have a lyric critiqued. It was a tremendous experience being put under the microscope. Made you realise just how much work is necessary to get a lyric to a decent standard.

As to my first suggestion, I'd really like to have the Shout Box available again for casual drop-ins and chat rather than as a venue for collaborations. It must get awfully confusing at times. In fact, there'd be no need for a separate chat box at all if collaborators were to open a song thread in one of the forums and simply work on each of their songs there, in tandem with using email and PMs as necessary. What do you think?

Donna

Howdy DM, mentoring lyrics sounds fantastic. I think it stopped
just before I started, Id see mentions of it, but nothing active.
As to the shout box situ, I'm confused. I know that for a while most every evening, me and the GUTTER GANG are on there, and
there is nuthin' serious going on. we might spam each other to
look at one another's lyrics, or teel each other about a PM, &
we invite anyone brave enough, to please jump in on the fun.
..........our only wank is it is so small

We've got an awful lot of forums already BUT
A collab forum or a special thread for collabs sounds like it might be a good idea. Some sites have a "collab corner" or some such.

As far as nothing serious going on,on the shout, to me that was the original idea. A place that wasn't too busy, to holler at someone who shows to be online or someone you haven't seen for a while and maybe chat a little, but----
with steady collabing etc. going on,in "Prime time" any post like that is soon scrolled out of sight or even completely off.

Quite right, if the collabing went somewhere else, the shout would probably be pretty empty for a while but that's partly because when it's so busy at times it'd not used much anymore to just chat for a minute.

Course, that's all JMO--Everybody's got one<G>
Prob'ly stepped on some toes, but they'd be far from the
first. <G>
Y
(Whyja' think some of the few "long timers" left called me "Mudgie" <G>)
Heck, I haven't doneany "Mudgin" for a long time--Andy is liable to drum me outa the Mudgeon society.)

(Maybe I oughta put a post on 3 about all the "Back pattin" going on and the dearth of serious crits. I'll think on that <G>)

I'll be back in a day or too to see if there's any "ruckus" but I gotta dig ground and plant maters and stuff.

Y'all carry on in my absence. (Did I spell that right? I always have trouble with that one <G>. (Well, heck, it'd got SIX letters!! (I think)<G>

Scroll down Polly, they are all still posted and very educational. Plus that's another volunteer project I want to create. (Extracting all th best tips, problems and outcomes into a series of educationwl lessons.

Brian

The MP3 and Lyric Boards already ARE meant for collabs. I wasn't aware of a problem with shout box misuse. I've never seen it personally or I'd just nicely suggest they use the boards which are much better suited for long chats/projects as the shout box clears out and the record of who said what is gone.

Also, if someone knows a chat room with outside ads we could use, let me know. I've always wanted one if we had the money.

Brian

Hey everyone I really like that we are getting somewhere. I was also wondering what you guys think of an MP3 crit forum where both the song and the critiquer are anonymous. I also agree with that "new music" forum but we need to make the title more appealing somehow. New users will still look at that and not see it being any different that what we already have but maybe I am crazy what do you guys think?

AJ, you keep suggesting you're crazy, so I'll take your word for it...but yes, I think an anonymous crit would be a good idea. As Wy said, a lot of "back pattin'" is going on. I myself listen to some stuff and don't crit because I don't have anything nice to say, and I don't want to hurt the person's feelings, so I say nothing at all. When I do post on someone's song, I only post the positive qualities (I save the negative ones for Kevin Emmrich ) ALTHOUGH, part of what makes this site so nurturing and friendly is that people AREN'T anonymous and it helps them be held accoutable for their behavior.

Wy, I liked the idea of "collab corner". That does leave the shout box open for casual conversation. Still, the shout box is so small it's hard for more than 3 people to get in and have a good chat.

Let's try to resurrect the monthly mentoring a song thing. I'd love to see that. Heck, even once a week would be better! There are so many songs and I'm sure boatloads would be entered for consideration. Being a newbie to the songwriting thing myself, I'd really be religious about visiting that forum.

We have no option for an anonymous critique nor would we want one. It's better to simple teach folks how to critique honestly and with helpful and useful comments. Our Mentor Critique forum did that for roughly a year or two very well and mqany of our best critiquers learned a great deal from it. Great songwriters can write bad critiques, but greqat critique writers rarely write bad songs.

Brian

To be honest, I'm kind of shocked to find that this site is so lacking. I used to be active on other sites but these days, I find myself here because I had deluded myself into thinking this was a pretty good place to be. I don't know what I was thinking.

OK, sarcasm aside, what makes Just Plain Folks so special is the sense of community. People from all different backgrounds with all different musical interests can come here to share, learn, and be a part of something bigger than themselves.

I'm not against change if something isn't working, but I honestly didn't know there was a problem here. New people come here all the time and I always see them being greeted and made to feel welcomed. People come together and share their music and ideas. Sometimes unexpected collaborations happen and the music goes in unexpected directions. If changes occur that make even one of those unexpected collaborations fail to materialize, then we all lose.

I looked through it -- I didn't see any support for tags/tag clouds, though. I'll poke around some more.

Kevin

Hello guys,

I am not really understanding what people are looking for here. Are you looking for someone to critique songs, a place to put different formats, attracting new writers, or some combination of all of it?

Everybody seems to want something different and that is why forums dissapate so quickly and people lose interest. If it is song critiques you are looking for, use peer to peer, and find someone who's writing you admire, contact them privately and ask them for a reality based critique.

If you have interests in different types of music, find someone closest to your interest and personally contact that person and try to find out where they post or participate in things. There should overall be more personal interaction. That is the key to anything that has to do with music.

MAB

MAB: It seems to me that the gang is trying to find some where for the newer crowd to post alternative type music so it won't get all mixed in with the predominantly country/folk/old fogey stuff that is most popular here now. I think they want to call it the "Under 30 Only" forum (ha, ha).

I think, for the most part, forums like these do get dominated by the older crowd -- but the younger folks are out living life and don't have the time nor inclination to use this. Facebook pretty much sucks up their on-line time (with MySpace thrown in there, too). I might be wrong, though.

Kevin

Kevin,

You are right on. The younger people, artists and writers, don't really participate in forums like this. Twitter, Face book, My Space, are all more suited for the "imediate responses" they look for.
So probably if you were to open up one or several forums for that, you would find very little use for it. They just think in a different forum than us really old people do. It is the way of things.

MAB

I do not think there is any need for anonymous critiques. Brian is correct learn how to critique properly be respectful and honest and give constructive criticism. How can anyone take offence? To be honest I would prefer someone who is really brutal and honest saying what they like and dislike about a song than someone who back pats and thinks everything is great however bad it is. That said it is nice and reassuring when someone says nice things even if you know they are not true. It balances up all the bad things. LOL


OLD?......... WHOS OLD?

I have noticed that songs move down the board pretty rapidly though so it might not be a bad idea to have more boards or divide boards up into the dreaded different genre thing. Then we would need to have another board for all the posts from people asking what genre to put a song in. LOL

Hey!!!!!!

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to simply have an Icon that identified genre.
When making a new post you can select a posting ICON. What if it said Rock, or Metal, Country, etc? Not sure how you make them.

There is no doubt the MP3 forum moves pretty fast. I don't know if another forum would help or not. We still have three lyric forums and that does seem to help with the lyrics.

We can have MP3 Forum 2, but what we learned with lyric forums, at first it split the crowd in two, one became a clique and dominated the boards, the other half disappeared and rarely came back. We created a third to try and break that and in the nd nearly everyone ONLY posted on version 3. Finally lately people are starting to use all 3 as we hoped from the start.

I will say it again: I am happy to add any new forums.. IF they are regularly used AND if they don't cause a rift or the appearance of segregation of members. Sell me on that and we're good to go.

By the way, we'll be adding at least 1 new board to welcome new members and offer up guides (not rules) to better using the site.

Brian

I'M old. I am seven years older than dirt.

MAB

I think Aaron's post is pretty clear --- he feels that people ( the younger crowd ) come here and don't stay because they do not SEE anything like what they are doing here.......

could be true --- but I think that they most likely will not stay even if we post a Younger Genre forum........

why -- because their interests keep changing and they move on to the next best thing --- keeping regulars will be challenging -- but I could be wrong....... jm

I'm pretty much with Kevin Edward Rose. I've never felt there was a problem with the boards as they are (though a little streamlining is always in order anywhere). As far as welcoming goes, newcomers have always been welcomed, no matter in which forum they posted. Brian's intention to provide an Introductions section with guidelines is a good idea, though. As far as genres go, if it's not possible to have icons, we simply need to mention the genre in the subject box.

I'd mainly like to see people getting - and giving - good, solid, constructive critiques. It's this kind of "tough love" that helps people first develop and then hone their songwriting skills. (Unfortunately, several of the best "critiquers" and previously active members have stopped visiting or posting much over the past several months.)

Donna

Donna - I too have Not felt there was a problem with how the boards work... Over time I have noticed slow spots and changes, for instance the effects of the award process..... lots of people help with that -- so when the judging is going on the critiques on the regular forum diminish --- likewise when the mentor forum began --- everyone went over to that to spend their time. Consequently less time was spent on the regular critique forums.......

It's clear to me whenever you create a new place (forum) and Need people to visit -- many people just move their time over --- not necessarily spending More time...... just splitting what they do -- this is what I meant Aaron - when I said the people disperse......

before I was recording and writing music - I spent much more time on the lyric forum -- now it makes more sense to spend it on the mp3 -- there are only so many hours in a day - critiquing a lyric - sometime takes more time than a song in progress - imho

More solid constructive critiques on the regular board - rather than a mentoring forum - makes much more sense to me --- I also believe that this will draw the quality writers and musicians In........we seem to attract many beginner writers - they all need services -- it would seem like the mentors - could and should critique there -- and then hopefully draw in clients for a win win......situation

jm

JM, continuing on the theme of more solid and constructive critiques in the regular forum(s), perhaps when/if Brian installs an Introductions/Forum Use Guidelines section it could include a stickie that gives guidelines on how to critique lyrics.
In fact, perhaps it could also - or instead - be placed at the top of the MP3 and lyrics forums. This type of guideline would, in reverse, also be a kind of how-to summary for writing lyrics.
For instance, asking oneself- both as critique-giver and lyricist - things like:
Is the hook/title memorable?
Is the hook placed optimally in the lyric?
Is there a distinct lyrical message?
Is the title consistent with the message?
Does the lyric start off strongly, pulling you in with the first couple of lines?
And so on and so on, including a number of elements such as use of rhyme/meter/structure, etc.

And - if Brian could swing it - it would be a tremendous bonus if the pro mentors who participated earlier were to drop by on a regular basis - perhaps a different one each fortnight or month - and randomly select a lyric or song to critique: e.g. one visit it's a lyric, the next visit it's an MP3.

I feel that what already exists on the JPF site simply needs a little tweaking to optimise it.

Donna

If I were to have more than one forum for "Genre" I'd make it simple. I wouldn't bother with LYRIC Genre's. because Lyric alone doesn't determine Genre.

I'd have this
Country Board
Finished MP3 (No crit needed just a showplace. Back patting encouraged)
Critique MP3 (Self explanatory Tell it like it is)

Other Genre's
Finished MP3 (Metal, Jazz, Rock, whatever. Again a showplace)
Critique MP3 (self explanatory)

The reason I'd lump everything besides country into one board is I think the majority here are country, or country oriented. If there was a real big variety in the "other" board making a presence you could consider expanding it. But I think it would be mostly Metal or Pop. If, for instance, Metal seemed to dominate you could then consider a METAL forum. But not until it seemed needed.
And you could still do ICONS if that would make them happy.

The only real issue I see is the speed with which the songs drop off the page on the MP3 forum. It seems like one or two days is about it.
Part of the reason is most feel obligated to comment on every song on there. Makes it go by fast and takes a lot of time. But that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is just how it is.

I just increased my preferences to have 30 topics/mp3s visible per page instead of my normal 20. That means they should stay on page one 50% longer!

Kevin

I know Kevin. I did that a long time ago. Mine is set to 50. But I have high speed internet. It might be difficult for folks on slower connections.

How about just banning Country for a month ?

*slinks off into the corner to dodge the bullets*......

cheers, niteshift

I think this here is exactly what I was thinking about this is a great idea this is where we can sort out what would be need cuz we know we need country for sure but we dont want to open up other forums cuz we are not sure pf the traffic. this would be a way to figure it out. IMHO most people these days dont listen to country and this would help to keep those people here maybe it just me.

[/quote]
IMHO most people these days dont listen to country ... . [/quote]

Oh my goodness, Aaron, wherever did you get that false notion?

Donna

It seems to me that having a country and non-country board DOES create a rift and the segregation of members.

Kevin

Donna

really if we were to poll the whole buying world what thier favorite music was country would not be at the top. Do they even have country in europe or china or japan or australia or brazil or south africa?? If we look at every musical culture it really wouldnt be sure its the largest business but thats cuz North America is the biggest producer and consumer of all goods and services so how wrong am I??

Kevin

It wouldnt seg. there is still the gen forum the songwriter forum the mentor forum and WE CAN USE AND VISIT ALL FORUMS right??

OUCH! Juice, thems my toes you got your boot heel on....
But, I know what you really meant, was the non-geriatrics..ha ha
the non-geezers, the PRE-DEPENDS CROWD...(c):Gus. OK, I gotcha,
THE MORE YOUTHFUL CROWD..........LOL......

Aaron, I was thinking in terms of North America, parts of Europe (e.g. countries like England and Denmark have a strong country following) and the kinds of people who frequent JPF and other songwriting forums.

Donna

I really don't want to just hang out in a "Country" mp3 forum -- but if you split it up, then I might have to chose where to spend my time. Or I could just get frustrated and find somewhere else to hang out. There are lots and lots of music forums out there.

Kevin

here are genre stats.......

it's STILL though , a matter of who will come and stay on a posting site -- and learn the crafts



http://www.statcrunch.com/5.0/viewresult.php?resid=814261


well you can copy and paste into your browser

it won't do it right here

Hey Kevin I think thats what i am going to do. or maybe you could use both forums?? that might work

THANX JM that shows exactly what I am trying to fix note the statement at the bottom. country is dying sorry really it is.

Ok we could have a country only Mp3 forum and a general Mp3 forum for all other genres. Maybe the same with lyrics? I would go along with that. I also like the idea of a Newbie forum where folk can introduce themselves and ask questions normally associated with new members. I would like to see a FAQ forum where the most common questions that folk ask can be located. The moderators can select the old threads that give the best advice and best answers.

RIGHT ARM JIM!! we can buckle up now haha

Kevin, I don't think having a seperate forum for non-country music would segregate people at all...it would give people like me MORE to look at! I like country, but I like a whole bunch of other genres too, and I don't see them regularly posted here. Again, having a non-country forum (for those who despise country music...yes...some people do!) would keep more people around and actively posting (and hopefully donating as well). It might also spark an interest in non-country folks to start up JPF chapters in their areas and host musical events, knowing those events won't be centered around country (as they might have previously thought).

genre forums, a great idea, saves time and able to focus in more.

does it matter if it's 2 or 10 or 100 people?

if the right 2 people connect it can make for a wonderful marriage of music(ians).

Aaron, Polly and others: The main thing is now you have asked me to decide what genre I am (ha, ha). I choose a genre when I put it over in soundclick, but I don't think about it that much. I mean here's a link to me 2010 RPM CD: http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/800151/ How many of those songs are country? (I don't expect you to listen to whole thing, just breeze 30 seconds to a minute of each one).

We have all these discussions about how great the radio was in the late 60's and 70's because within an hour you could hear the Beatles, the stones, the animals, funk, soul, bubble gum, folk, a boy named sue, instrumentals, crap and non-crap -- all on commercial top 40 AM radio. All smooshed together, great variety. And now everyone complains about how "segregated" radio is. Your solution: "segregate JPF". I just don't get it.

EDIT: To me, right now, the JPF is '69 radio. It seems like, without realizing it, you want to make it more like 2010 radio!

Kevin

Well, at least the Kevins agree!

well It Shows that ALL music is being listened to and Bought in a different way .....and Country is hardest hit .........

but the real Reality is that the Internet offers just about Anything easily.......

This is really a matter of what you would like to build here......on jpf -- that's why I vote for mixed forum -- everything IS welcome -- right Now --- if you have friends that want to Chat and Post other genres they CAN do it today.......

The Reality is the people who STAY and contribute regularly over Years are people dedicated to their music and process --that's not going to change -- we are already Open to any genre --- I have Never played the country Only road -- but I could always see the value of learning good writing --- it IS on offer here -- any genre Any time........ jm

"Country is dying' Really Aaron? Where exactly do you get your facts? Market share is up. Country concert tours are consistantly the biggest grossers of the year. This past year country acts are winning Grammy's and every other award, people coming into the Nashville area are growing by leaps and bounds, including the money people, the producers and major artists from other markets. more country artists on more magazine covers and more television, motion pictures eminating out of here. But actually they made those same statements before. Like every year. Probably should learn a little about the subject before you make more silly statements. Do a little research.

MAB

I'll have to agree with MAB on this one for sure.
Just to confirn what I already "Thought" I knew, I asked Google what genre had had the most onlne stations playing it--I didn't copy the figure but-- Country was by far the most-I think 264 and the closest to that was Rock 189---just about half. Somebody else might get a little different figures but I think not too much
(Awright, so Rock was "Two thirds" country. Nitty, nitty<G>)

I haven't been on much so just read the last end of the thread but this seperate genre thing for JPF has been discussed several times and always abandoned. I'd have to ask Brian but it seems like it may have been tried, I've seen it tried somewhere anyway and all it did was fracture the site---the smaller ones,matterafact "most" of them , just die for lack of participation.

All that I rememember being decided last time was, if you want to designate a genre, post it in the lead in to your song . All someone has to do is sweep the page to find what they want.
JPF has "Always" been mostly country and as far as it dying , I refer you to Mark, Twain <G>

Carry on as before
Wy
I wa gonna start at the beginning and read the thread but at this rate I don't think I have time <G>

I think maybe from Dick James, who said to The Beatles Manager Brian Epstein, "Guitar bands are on the way out"!

LOL

LOL LOL, Johnny

So do you think everyone in music prefers '69 radio to present??
come on now any big shot will tell you if your stuck in the past you wont make the future