JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Lyrics or melody first?

SO I've been writing music for 15 years now and have always run into the same issue with Lyrics. Which comes first the lyric or the melody. This issue usually stems from the fact that i have worked with a lot of vocalist who don't play an instrument out side of there voice but still write lyrics. Now i understand it can work both ways and have tried both approaches but in my years of writing I have always been a fan of melody first.

I tend to write the melody of a chorus to start and sing random phrases until the texture of the words flows right for me and the sounds of the words compliment the melody and chords. From there i move on to a basic verse and song structure. After going through it 20 or 30 times words generally start to feel right in certain spots. By this i mean the amount of syllabols, texture of the words, and sound of the word. At this point i tend to start looking for a direction lyrically to go.

I know from working with a few artist over the years they find this way to be very restrictive to there ability to write lyrics. Due to the fact there's not a lot of wiggle room with in the melody to add more words. There's always a few syllabols here and there but not a huge amount of room.

Growing up as a pop/rock writer I've always been a firm believer that lyric don't mean as much as the melody. If you listen to any pop or rock it's really not about story telling in the direct since that country is. Lyrics in rock are most times left up to the the listener to choose the meaning. They can be very abstract and in some cases they just don't make any sense. See Nirvana, Alice in Chains, ect. ect.

So where do you guys stand in this equation? I'm sure most of the lyrical writers will be on one side and musical people on the other for the most part. Just a question, maybe it'll help us all when we write together?

I am exactly like you. Im a melody first kinda guy. I can arrange way better to an already made melody. For me its easier to put in more interesting musical twists in the lyrics then to take a lyric (considering its well ranged) and put a well placed mel. to it. It really does work both ways but if you start lyric first it usually creates a less interesting melody. But with Melody already made it can make for some really interesting lyrics (musically) like which notes to hold how much to go up or down where to to put stops and starts. Where lyrically if you were to write like that it wouldnt seem like it sounds good but cuz of the music it does. that might just be me. Jason Mraz is a lyric first guy I am pretty sure and he's done some pretty wicked stuff.

You are going to get as many answers to as you have writers. There is no right or wrong way. But over the years I have learned one thing. Melody gets them there, lyrics keep them there. In this era of the disposable song, the lyrics become more and more the defining factor in songs. If people can related to it, they are more likely to stay tuned to it. If they don't relate, it is usually just one more melody that they can dance to and actually just seque's into another song.

I came from the rock world where the melody and production were everything. I gravitated to country with rock undertones because I still care about the groove and feel but need to talk about something. Country and Nashville are much more lyric oriented and the metaphors don't really work here.

The differences can be described as the difference between abstract, impressionist art and the grand masters. In rock or pop you can have a bowl of fruit with eyeballs on the oranges, noses on the apples and blood and guts everywhere. In country it has to look like a bowl of fruit. May not be as different, but is generally more understandable with a broader audience. It is why a lot of rock artists find their way here at one time or another. Just makes it more interesting and challenging to write. There are only 12 notes.

At any rate it is about connecting with the audience. However you get there, is irrelavant as long as you get and keep attention with the audience.

The process I generally use with my students and what I have learned from writing with hit writers is:

Get a conversation going on various subjects. Jot down notes on various phrases, rhymes, words or thoughts that jump out.
I write from the first line down, developing a story around the various thoughts and senarios going on in people's lives. The hook usually manifests itself from that. At the same time I am writing down lyrical ideas, I am formulating musical grooves, passages, chord progressions. Usually the conversations have included style and types of songs to give a beginning direction.

At some point, I generally pick up the guitar and play what comes out. Very free form but structured. I shoot for a verse and chorus pattern because it gives a road map, if that is as much as we get, each writer can take the map and work on it's own or if that is not the direction, we can scrap it and move in a different direction.

I use all senses, touch, taste, smell, hearing, sight, as well as emotion. I take mental notes on the scene just like a music video or short film storyline. I identify the characters involved, the scene, the dialogue, just like directing a movie.
The musical style is interfused with the lyric contents throughout like a dance. Each song has:

#1 Reality based in dialogue.
#2 Conversational in tone.
#3 Memorable melodic hook.

I generally write in verse, lift of channel, chorus with the hook at the end. Usually two verses and possibly a bridge and out. This is how about 90% of most popular music has been written for a hundred years. There are a variety of styles, and structures inside that but most commercial music is written in that style.

I want the audience to immediately connect with the subject, see the entire scene in their mind's eye, be able to hum or sing along with it by the second chorus and wrap it all up in a 3 minute and 30 second time frame. Keeps me from wasting any lines. I use distinctive visual furniture in each line and great specifics in each detail. I don't allow the audience to have to fill in the blanks because usually they don't want to work that hard. I avoid cliche's and hard to define metaphors, because they are generally overused and make it harder to describe what you are trying to say. And with the overabundance of music in the world, the last thing you want it to have someone tune you out quickly, which they most certainly do. Always something else on.

Less is more from my particular point of view and if I can say the same thing in one verse and chorus that most take two and three verses to get to, generally I am going to get to my hook and thereby be more memorable. People are more likely to ask you for copies, purchas CD's, downloads, etc. and tell others about you more if you make it sweet simple and keep them engaged.

The most important aspect is Memorability.

That's what I shoot for. Don't know if I always get it but that is the goal.

MAB

I used to do a combination of lyrical phrase, then think up a melody with a chord progression.

Now I write the lyrics first and let the lyrics lead me into a melody. I marry them together, yet each can stand on it's own. During the song writing process, I adapt one or the other if necessary. I notate as I go, which makes it easy to find glitches in the lyric's meter and helps me avoid the pitfall of subconsciously altering the melody to fit a new verse. I add the harmony or chords after I have found the melody.

I have only a few successful songs that I created working from chord progression inspired melodies as opposed to quite a few working from the lyrics first. Learning to notate my music made a big difference in my song writing. I tend to be very visual and I can see inconsistencies right away.

Marc,

I agree that in country there's more attention payed to lyrics, i also agree with your idea that melody gets them, lyrics keep them. My thought is that starting with lyrics limits your melody, and if you never get them, well they never get to the lyrics. I personally hate writing lyrics, probably due to the fact that i think i suck at it and there are better writers then me. That said i always find myself trying to make my co-writer understand that while i can tweak a melody here and there to fit a extra word or two it can only be if it doesn't hurt the melody of the song.

Most songs i write i usually sing anything that pops in to my mind until something clicks then i start a conversation with the writer about where that line could lead or what situations it would work in.

Trav,

That is a very common tecnique among rock writers. Actually back in my band days that is how everything was written. the band would come in, jam away for a while, then later the lyrics were written by myself and usually one other of the members.
For me,my move to Nashville involved having to get better at it as that is the nature of this town. And while the over 25 writers with number one songs that I have written with were often drawn to me because of my R&B styles, the reality is that I always had to step up to the plate and get better as lyrics as well.
But we always try to work with others who compliment our strengths and weaknesses. If you don't feel as accomplished at lyrics, by all means always find others who might be able to take it to places you can't. 70% of writers are lyric only so you are in a good percentage when it comes to your skills.

Good luck and stay at it.

MAB

Marc,

I have my moments of great lyrics but as guy who is pretty emotionless there few and far between. The good thing is i know my weakness and tend to find co-writes with people who's strong point are the lyrical side. It is definitely the one part of writing i work on the most but after working with a couple of brilliant lyric writers i always end up comparing myself too, I'm never satisfied with my lyrics. I'm usually good for half a chorus and half a verse, thank God some people did pay attention in english class while was sleeping.

Man, great post...I have a feeling your responses are going to be all over the place. I'm a lyric first guy, but you nailed it, its for a lot of the reasons you mentioned above. I like the freedom to me able to work the melody around the words and not be restricted. Also, I'm a Country guy and you are totally right, you cant be abstract in Country music the way you can in pop/rock, the lyrics have to make sense.

I wrote with a guy a few weeks ago that is a pop singer. He had a melody and chorus already done and needed help on the verses. It was fun, but it was completely different then how I write. To me it was like writing the second verse, the melody and structure have already been established and now you need lyrics inside that melody...and I've never been a fan of writing the second verse, thats the hardedst part of every song.

I'm a huge fan of pop and rock music, but as far as writing goes, the words have to make sense for me to write it which is why I prefer Country.

Good post!

Chad

I do not write country but write just about everything else. I can work it both ways. Most recently I have been presented with lyrics so I have to work lyrics first. LOL
I have written with melody first and with lyrics first.....it all depends on the mood and the project. Sometimes but not very often I do both at the same time. A melody and words come to mind at the same time.
At the end of the day it does not matter..it is what works for the individual and the end product that counts. Nothing should be carved in stone and writers should be prepared to tweak both lyrics and melody to get a balance. I hate it when co writers refuse to change their lyrics to allow meter or tunesmiths refuse to alter melody.

We often speak of 'tweaking' a lyric, refining lines, how we say them, what we say, how many words, how many syllables we employ to say it, the time tense, present, past, first-person, third-person, male/female point of view, changing words, moving lines around within a stanza, moving stanzas around, exchanging what we thought was a verse if it makes a better chorus.

But tweaking melody is seldom spoken of, and it is fairly flexible too. You can alter the pitch up or down, the duration shorter or longer, inserting rests or deleting them, all to fit the beat, tempo, and general prosody, the 'marriage' of the vocal to the arrangement.

Tweaking lyric and melody can challenge you but you can be up to the task. Success demands lyricists write with the comprehension that their words have to be singable, hitting the beat, matching the melody employed in Verse 1 with words singable to that same melody in Verse two, three.

Melodists are under the same strictures, demanding comprehension that their melody must be able to be sung without distorting the words so that listeners can't understand them, that the melody must be memorable, memorizable, constructed so the listener can 'get' it, can be singing along, if not the first time they hear it, certainly the second time.

During the writing process each co-writer should have clearly logical reasons they can communicate to the other about why their suggestion for a change is necessary, or why it would be better. And each should be open to exploring the changes to see if they concur that the change is indeed an improvement, or if the experiment proves the change was not a good idea.

Explore. Try the differences. Changing the key sometimes reveals a melodic difference which offers nuances of interest. Changing the tempo can reveal dynamics and even genre possibilities the original inspiration didn't have. Explore. You may discover new worlds of songwriting, new lyrical ideas, new melodic phrasings, a gold mine of possibilities.

The whole work should remain malleable, flexible, as water, filling the shape as the shape changes, adapting to the new influences, bending to the wills of the co-writers. When any co-writer becomes inflexible to the others' inspirations they may be denying themselves the opportunity to create some of the truly great works of their career. Explore the possibilities until you both, or all, agree that you have refined the raw ore of the original inspirations of lyric and melody and the prosody of the two to a point where no party to the work feels something remains to be 'fixed' or tweaked.

If there is frustration you have to rethink your attitude toward the work. Loosen up. Keep it malleable. Be malleable.

Hi travrocks

Could be either or both

I write in many ways but my preferred style is to take a lyric and then write the song. However, I never see the lyric itself as cast in stone, so it’s not necessarily a case of ‘starting with lyrics limits your melody’. I suppose I see the lyric as an interesting piece of wood that I can make a nice carving out of. I am first and foremost a musician and the music side comes fairly easily to me so that’s why the lyric is my driver most of the time.

Going back to ‘starting with lyrics limits your melody’. I agree that a lyric can influence style e.g. country or rock, but I don’t think it limits the melody. The opposite argument would be that the ‘melody can limit your lyric’ – but I don’t think either is true, it just gives a reason to be more creative.

Nige

Flipping a coin sometimes works best for me -- different strokes for different folks, you know. All that really matters in the end is the birthing of a song to be proud of. That's what it's all about.

-Dave

Ahhhhhhhh, the age old question... Most of the musicians I work with have been able to work very nice melodies out of lyric as long as I am there to give them the flow/lyrical phrasing. What has worked best for me is bring the song to my picker with chords laid in with BIAB and sing it to him. He'll say we need to change a chord here or there, put a pause/rest before this word, lengthen or shorten this word, sing a little behind or ahead here etc. Then he records a rhythm guitar and drum track and a simple melody lead track. Then he calls in a vocalist and after they are done he goes back in and redoes the lead to flow with the vocals and adds any other instruments/harmonies to make it work. I've also worked with a couple of classically trained singers who want to be there from the initial session so they can have input on the lyrical phrasing and melody from the start. That is a very nice way to do this. I have tried writing to existing music but I am terrible at it. For me, lyric first but I "Hear" the feel of it in my head as I am writing it. That isn't always how the song turns out but it is usually pretty close. My genres: Country, Western Country, Christian Country, Gospel, P&W, Contemporary Christian, Jazz, Blues, Pop, Southern Rock, Bluegrass, and one Rock Opera I'm still looking for a musical co-writer for. I hope all this rambling answers your question.

Hi Trav:

I believe it does not matter which comes first. The only important thing is the end result. Does it sound good, does it inspire, does it "rock?" I've always been told that the melody is most important but IMHO... it's only a miniscule difference.

Before I forget... Welcome to JPF. Nice to see you participating and sharing threads with us.

This is an old trotter of a question, but I think it's more important these days than it's ever been.

The view I subscribe to, is that contemporary melodies are more adventurous than before. They tend to rely a lot on rhythm patterns with shorter note intervals (attempting to be more memorable, I think, as shorter intervals is easier to sing), due to the extended role of drums & percussion in contemporary music, and melodies doesn't start on the first beat as much as they used to.

So, there are MORE (but less dynamic) melody in contemporary music these days, and it is more rhythm driven than harmony driven. Melodies are also more fractured, broken up in smaller chuncks, I think. This is not my analysis, but one from songwriter Robin Frederick http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/5815303 (an hour well spent IMO). But I do agree with her.

If that premise is adopted before writing, I think this makes it more of a challenge to start with lyrics. Not impossible, and talents differ and all that, but to be able to craft contemporary sounding melodies, I personally feel it's easier to start with melody. Well, not just easier, but essential, in fact. If the song is more traditional, and doesn't have to have the contemporary sound, I think starting with lyrics is just as fine.

I often work on melody a'capella first, works out the sections, memorize it (I put chords on here), and then write the lyric to the (crafted) head melody.

Somehow I feel collaborating is more difficult due to this, as it takes a lyric writer that is very good with writing to melody. I used to write melody to lyrics, and it works fine, but I think the end result often ends up sounding dated, no matter how good it is.

I do think lyrics tend to be leaning more to rock in content due to this also, as stories are harder to write on top of a melody.. for me anyway.

So these days, I have lots to learn, but melody rules with me.

Trav bro,

I personally just get really worked up about something, and then play a random chord progression and sing over the top of it. Usually there are a lot of nonsense words I have to decode but I trust my unconscious mind had something it was "trying" to say, and even if there wasn't, I just make the nonsense into something poetic. And doing it this way, the melodies tend to suit the words.

I've never enjoyed writing lyrics and melody separately but if I was to try it, I'd write the melody first and then write lyrics without the melody in mind! And then change the rhythm of the melody to match the words (one syllable into two notes, etc - i'm sure there's a word for that). Composing the other way round, I think i'd end up plagiarising. I'd hear the melody which suits the words based on my memories of how those phrases have been sung.

BUT THATS JUST ME!

What must be taken into consideration is that a lot depends on the genre....As stated contemporary music is more production driven and less emphasis is placed on lyrics. Therefore it stands to reason that this type of music is more often driven by a core riff or repeating hook rather than clever or meaningful lyrics.
More traditional music has lyrics at the core.
I think whether it is lyrics or music first will very much depend on the style and genre of the song.
Interesting to read about plagiarism. I think it works both ways....I have seen many songs where lyrics are plagiarised and also a lot of songs where musical hooks, riffs, hooks chord progs and melody has been ripped off.

Lately, this is how I have been writing:

1) Get a general melody in mind. This melody will probably not have anything to do with the final melody but it gives me a framework for my mind.

2) theme and hook.

3) chorus

4) pre chorus

5)verses

6) bridge

7) give it to co-writer to write music

8) revise lyrics to match music as necessary.


Tom

I have done it both ways and I'm not saying it can't be done just that i find it more restrictive. A lot of that has to do with the fact that melody comes very natural to me, where lyrics do not. It's good to hear different ways to approach songs and as i start writing a little more country styled songs i see more songs that are written lyrically first. I understand every song will go through changes to be good, I'm just that guy who needs thing proven before i say yes to anything. I take my craft seriously and I have always found for me at least that it's easier to find a lyric change then a melody change. Simple math logically tells me there are more words then notes. To me there's always another way to say the same thing but there's not always another great note for a melody.

for me thats a '' which foot should go first when you begin to walk '' question ............

ya need both and for me both come first no which one I start with .

but yah its always interesting to see what folks say once they answer that question and then their answers become more interesting as the begin to describe in depth as to how the song creation develops.


smiles man!

for me thats a '' which foot should go first when you begin to walk '' question ............

ya need both and for me both come first no matter which one I start with .

but yah its always interesting to see what folks say once they answer that question and then their answers become more interesting as the begin to describe in depth as to how the song creation develops.


smiles man!

Good thread!!!

Something MB said stood out about reality based in dialogue: I remember reading ( or was it an interview) when Tim Rice said while writing lyrics for Jesus Christ Superstar, he would read them without music to see if they sounded will on their own, and felt real (incidently here the music came first).

Who knows which is the right way: Elton John wants lyrics first then writes the melody to it.

I think both give different perspectives, I do enjoy hearing a melody and then writing lyrics to this, as the melody gives a feeling, an idea, an emotion which can inspire the lyrics.

Writing lyrics first, well to be honest, I write them to a headtune, so in a way I am writing to melody. I do that to keep a meter and structure as well as form between each verse. So maybe I am a melody first person, or at least melody and lyrics and the same time.

Just my few thoughts. Also I do thing genre is important. I remember an interview with Max Martin (co writer of many hits such as Baby One More Time and My Life Would Suck without you) saying that the premise of the song they can come up with in 5 minutes, but the work that they do on it after that you would not believe.

Cheers

Alan

There are a number of books and seminars with the "rules" of songwriting. Others say there are no rules, only guidelines. The truth is, each song has its own rules. It is up to us as songwriters to discover the rules for the song we are working on.

It seems to me that listening to Taylor Swift's songs, that she must write the lyrics and melody together. The structures and the word usage leads me to think this.

Just looking at the lyrics without listening to her songs is interesting - the structure often makes little sense. But with the music, it works.

Tom

HiDee Trav!

I've been at it for 25 years now, & what usually launches me is a good Lyrical HOOK. Next comes a CHORUS..usually..& by-then a rudimentary Melody is already in-mind. The Song's VERSES usually follow-along, as does a Head-Melody for them, too.

I rarely ever sing 'em "out loud" as I write/having recorded over 100 of 'em over the years, I know it's not TOO-hard to fix a line in the studio come Demo-Time. (I'm WELL-aware of the Differences between Songs..& Poetry..& Crowds..& Bars..&..heh-heh..What-Musicians-Like!) (& a Decent Lyricist SHOULD be, too!)

I've learned, since I play NO Instruments, the benefits of Splitting a Song WITH a Musical Co-Writer. I rarely mention MY version of the Melody...THEIRS are usually better that what I had in mind/they more than earn Their 50%.

Genres: Lyrics seem to dictate which-is-which, tho I've more than once had a "Country Lyric" end up Reggae..or Pop..Or Rock..or R&B! Like Marc, I TRY for "Everyday" "Conversational" Lyrics..&..I prefer Fairly-Simple Plotlines. I'm also fond of Comedy..& Irony (which hasn't necessarily boosted my stuff's "Commerciality"..time-to-time)..but..I make a decent-enough living from my Day-Job, & this should be FUN, too, (Dagnabit!) ;-)>

It's NOT hard to write Words to "Music First" IF you Composers merely sing some "Nah-Nah"s in where you're hearing SYLLABLES..{That's How Ya Spell It, BTW}..heh!

I'd argue the lyric DOES mean "Close to as-much-as-The Melody" unless you're penning an INSTRUMENTAL or a heavy DANCE Number.
(TRY buying a Song by just HUMMING IT..eh?) (Even your INSTRUMENTAL will need a Good TITLE to sell it..)

You need Good WORDS about as-much as we Lyricists need Good MELODIES. (& even "Abstract" & "Vague" Lyrics STILL take a Wee Bit-of-Skill...JMO.)

Rock-On, Amigo!
Best Wishes/Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

Exactly

A closed mind will find, at most, one way of doing things....whereas an open mind will find many different ways.

Hey trav, the thing about more notes that words, reminds me of what Don Black said in an interview: the difference between writing music and words, is that because everyone uses words and knows them, it is easier to say 'well you could have said it this way' whereas with music, not so many can say, well maybe it should have been a bflat and not an a sharp.

What struck me from Don Black, is that he said we have to try to saw something similar in a different and new way.

Nice ideas....

I will take the anorak off now

Alan

I respectfully disagree. Sometimes there is another way for lyrics and sometimes there is another way for melodies but not always. Sometimes the search for another way is key to coming up to something even better. I think a lot depends on the genre.

Getting back to methods.

There is no right or wrong way to put a song together. If we can consistently and produce quality songs in a timely way, then that's a good thing. However if our current methods are not working for us, then it may be time to try other methods. Flexibility and versatility are two of the greatest tools of the song writer's toolkit.

If composers who work from chord progressions find their songs are starting to sound too similar or that the melodies they come up with are too predictable, it may be time to try writing melodies first and let the melody provide the parameters for the chord progressions.

If always writing the music first results in a song with inferior lyrics, then it may be time to try working with the parameters of lyrics and vice versa for the lyricist who needs to find new rhythms for their lines.

The greatest asset for me was learning to notate music within the Finale program. (Oh, there she goes again.) I am a visual learner and it helped me to see what I was doing. If I am stuck melodically, I can look at the pattern the notes are creating or the note values and quickly try different variations. (The undo tool is a wonderful thing for people with short memories.) I can see at a glance if the second or third verses are fitting the melody. When it doesn't I have the option to either change the notes, or the words or rhyme patterns to make it work. Because I can sing (more or less) I can also check and see if the notes or word combinations will work for the vocalist. Likewise, creating the accompaniment is facilitated. It is easy enough to type in different chords to try them out. I got to the point where I didn't even need my guitar until I was nearing the end of the projects to check if everything is working together performance wise. At that point, I have the sheet music in front of me and can make changes as I try out the song with vocals and guitar.

However, every once in a while, if I find I am stuck, I will get out my guitar and experiment with chord progressions. It doesn't happen very often, but it has been a great help to me when I needed it.

Good thread!!!

Something MB said stood out about reality based in dialogue: I remember reading ( or was it an interview) when Tim Rice said while writing lyrics for Jesus Christ Superstar, he would read them without music to see if they sounded will on their own, and felt real (incidently here the music came first

Alan,

There is a thing we do here called the "If you can't speak it, don't write it." During every song I write and especially at the end, I am always reading out the lyrics as if in a conversation with a friend. If I can't speak it comfortable, I don't write it.

MAB

In Trav's defense, I don't think he's judging any one way of composing, just making the insightful (I thought) point that there are indeed more words than notes.

That would be a good topic to start in another thread, Marc.

That would be a good thread...however "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" kinda blows that rule outa the water. LOL

Big Jim, I would beg to differ. The "supercali..." word was used conversationally in a song by Beth Williams, which I musicated. Hight "Syllables for Sale." www.soundclick.com/share?songid=6303643.

Joe

Neat song Joe.....Now I am confused....cause if we should only use words used in everyday conversation and words like the "S" word are used in everyday conversation...then what words are we talking about using..... and what in the hell words or expressions should we not use in a song.
Now Joe you have upset me greatly I will not be able to sleep tonight pondering all this over.

You say that, but I said it to me girl and now me girl's my wife!!

"That would be a good topic to start in another thread, Marc. "

I don't like to start em.' Just like to comment on what people are interested in talking about.

MAB

Big Jim, I think anything's fair game. I regularly toss polysyllabic words and foreign words and phrases into lyrics--a trick I picked up from TampaStan Good--and people never fail to get them. (I do always make sure it's conversational, of course. This here's country music.)

I got rather bothered when I heard about an article in the Times of London that reportedly listed things you weren't supposed to have in songs--liposuction, libraries, deformed puppies, Star Trek conventions, &c.--so I had to write a song that had all of them in it. "The Taboo Song" is at www.soundclick.com/share?songid=7750801.

Joe

Joe I get it 100%. I also think anything is fair game..I have worked with some comedians who's material can only be described as anything goes and take no prisoners.
Music is also about self expression......if you cannot express yourself without rules and constraints then it is a sad world.
There are those who work within those constraints but that music tends to be predictable and one dimensional.
Sadly the one dimensional guys usually dictate and decide what becomes a hit.

This is the expressionist's tale.. I belive you can work in other art genres as a musician/ producer/ songwriter too.

Rules and constraints are also found in musical form, and it's not only constraining, it's liberating too, as well known forms can help you to communicate something in a way others can understand.

Basically, you don't need music to express yourself at all (unless you consider the rhythm and pitch of natural speech as 'musical').



There are some truth to this I think, but you actually are doing the same thing here, putting expressionism up as the only way to do music, so I think it's not as uniform as you put it.

Everything seems overthought and distant when there's no examples, so take a look at the latest winners of the John Lennon Song Contest. They write in well known forms, and adhere to genre conventions:

http://www.jlsc.com/winners/2009b/winners.php

Don't they do a great job? I certainly think so..

Once in a while, stop the babble on automatic pilot and try to LISTEN to the new stuff. It's still the only known path into music, no matter what 'level' you are at and what achievements you have left behind..

Jim,

Any writer has the right and responsibility to create and express themselves any way they want to. They just don't have a right to be heard. And if they are not embraced by the listening public, that is not the public's fault. Current types of music formats and structures are those that have been continued for about a hundred years of popular music. The Internet is open to anyone who wants to do anything, any way they want to. You can't get more creative and open to expression than that.

MAB

You miss my point entirely Magne.....Self expression means freedom to express in any way you want either by ignoring or using any rules you see fit. The minute rules HAVE to be adhered to this applies constraints and that restricts expression.
There are some occasions where we need rules and some rules are worth adopting. But not all the time.
The biz by nature will only bet on a sure fire winner. They seldom take a chance with rulebreakers and now more than ever in popmusic they want complete control. They make the rules and that IMO stifles and stagnates music.
The John Lennon winners do a good job...but that seems irrelevant to any argument about expression and constraints. I can of course make a huge long list of one dimensional music where people had the formal constraints of writing to a prescription formula where rules have to be adhered to.
As I said earlier people with narrow minds will find, if they are lucky, one way of doing something. Whereas broad minded people will develop many ways of doing things and find many different things to do.
Some people like working to a formula whilst others like experimenting and trying out new ideas. I have nothing much against those who work to a rulebook.....I sometimes do it myself.

Marc I agree...it has become very cold all of a suffen here like something wants to freeze over....The only diff I have with whatyou say is that we now, more than ever, seem reluctant to move on.....we want more of the same. Over the last hundred or so years music has changed and evolved dramatically there have been many revolutions and new ideas....but during the past 20 or so years we seem to have stagnated and keep reviving the old in cycles..rather than finding and embracing new ideas and styles.
People have become lazy and want everything on tap...Music is not an entertainment now more just a background disposable noise.

some great stuff here...thanks all.

I've done both first, although I am far more comfortable with writing the lyricfirst...but I've also gone a third way.

I have a "beat box" that will drum out patterns...giving me a "groove" to play with...so that the rhythm and feel came first.

And MAB, yes, greatb point.

I sometimes lose folks with a lyric because it is far to esoteric or abstract...making sense (only?) to me.

Fun to write, but to as Neil is heard to say on Four Way Street...that starts of slow then kinda fizzles out all together