JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Words NOT to use in songwriting

Ok i've posted songs and had some tell me there are some words not to use in writing...like .....that, and, just..


are there other words to try and stay away from??

and once someone said not to use but....so what are the boundaries and what words do we need to stay away from...

and I wish we had more rhyming words, seems most have been used so much....where is THAT perfect rhyme....:::::???????

thanks glyn

Antidisestablishmentarism, which I think is the longest word in the Dictionary.

Songwriters employ 'and' and 'but' and 'Because' or the abbreviated ' 'cause' to tie lines/thoughts together. It helps them conceive the storyline in a coherent way.

But the listener may not need those words. They 'get' the story and the connections without them. The singer can omit them as extra words they don't have to fit into the space allotted. Sometimes they're needed to make the lyric hit the beat properly.

The word 'and' is often poorly enunciated by singers, dropping the 'a' sound, leaving 'nd' to slur into the next word sung. "And I" becomes 'ndI' sounding like 'die.' As the line continues the listener can straighten out their initial misperception. But that means they're not paying full attention to the ongoing story of the song. You want them attentive, not distracted.

You can decide whether the song needs those 'and's or 'but's or 'because's for meter or meaning, or whether some or all of them can be eliminated and improve the song.

On the written page, misspelled or misconstrued words have the same effect. The reader has to go back to see that you meant 'You are' or 'You're' when you wrote 'Your.'

'There' and 'They're' and 'Their' are commonly misconstrued for one another, changing the meaning the reader gets first, even if they sort it out as its use in the context of the line or verse makes it clear what was intended. The distraction robs the lyric of its full effect.

Rhymes? Some words have only a few rhymes you can logically express your storyline with. 'Heart' is a good one to avoid. You end up stuck with 'torn apart,' used a million times by amateurs and professionals alike. The line needs to be very clever indeed if it's going to rhyme those two. Run through the alphabet and see how many rhymes you can find, Bart, cart, dart, and imagine how you're going to find a line to use them in a logical storyline with 'heart.' (Please don't use Wal-Mart!) There aren't many are there?

Sometimes you can flip a line around a bit, taking the hackneyed rhyme away from the end, putting it in the middle of the line somewhere, and giving yourself a rhyme word to end with that has many more possibilities.

You broke my heart

My heart was broken

But you don't have to mention a broken heart at all. If you can express the sorrow the singer-character feels without mentioning their heart, the listener gets what you mean, and maybe it has a better effect.

Thank you Ben I for shore will try and stay away from that one..


Gary, thank you so much, this has helped alot...glyn

Glynda,

This is a HUGE subject for me because I hear songs almost every night. This would be a partial list of words I hear in almost every amatuer written song:

Heart and Apart
Eyes and Realize
True and Blue
Wife and life

Pick up trucks (use a specific model of truck or DON't USE IT)

Angels (This is the newest hated word)

"Other worldly critters (devils, angels, God, Satan, etc.)

Bar's

Beers (be specific)

Honky tonks

Two stepping

Boot scooting

I'll come up with more later.

If you ever get a copy of Music Row magazine, a friend of mine named Kevin, does a collumn each year called "The Nashville cliche' Commission.

It is a satirical editorial being humorous, but like most comedy,it has a real basis in truth. It really does get into the elements of the whole thing.

What happens is that Nashville is a very "follow the leader" town. And it goes in cycles. You will start to hear a certain type of song, let's say, The "Beach song." Chesney will come out with "No Shirt, No Shoes, no problem". Joe Nichols will have "Some Beach" etc. then you will have song after song from artists that all kind of sound alike, have similar stories, but still kind of different. And they hit the charts about the same time, and stick on there for a while so it sounds like every song is about that same thing.

What has happened is that writers are writing all the time, and we all write the same stuff. We already have them in the can and sometimes have been playing them around for a couple of years, pitching them,etc. Then suddenly the flood gates open, and publishers start asking for them. Well,everybody "in the loop" already have them written, demoed, and ready to go. And this even happens sometimes BEFORE they hit the radio. There are private listening parties, people finding out what each other are doing and trying to "beat each other to the punch."

But you never see this. So you are writing your songs, and something comes on the radio, followed by one after another. Then you think "Hey this is perfect..." The problem is that after about the first wave of these songs, publishers are over them and onto something else. That wave will not hit for another year and we already are onto the next subject.

When you have something topical, like 9-11, or war EVERYBODY hits them out there. And if you are Alan Jackson and have the machine behind you, you can get "Where were you When the World Stopped Turning" out a few days after you write it and record it. Then everyone else is chasing you, and the fever burns out very quickly. It has a "Shelf life" and that is more fickle than the public itself.Think of how often new commercials are coming on the market. By the day. That is what we have been conditioned to in life. Very quick marketing.

For me that last three years have gotten nuts, as every guy who every gets on stage, is wearing the John Deer hats, talking about "being out in the COUNTRY' "I'm A little More country than That" We're from the Country and we like it that way" "She thinks my tractor's sexy.." Then we get into the "Bonfire" and whatever else in my pick up truck on the back dirt road.." you name it. And some of these guys are VERY country.

And it sucks sometimes cause there are some REALLY cool songs out there that just miss the boat. Last Wed. I heard hit writer and artist Marty Brown do a really cool, funny song, "Jesus was a Country Boy too." It was great, singable as Hell, and was cut by a new artist. But they had just run out of gas on the whole country thing, and nobody wants those songs now.

It happened to myself and Wood Newton several years ago. WE had written a song called "I've Got Too Much Blood in My Alcohol Level" 13 years before. Wood had a really big number one with David Ball on one of his songs, "Riding with Private Malone." (Again, kind of a "war song")

So 13 years after we wrote it, he cuts "Blood" on David. It takes three years to get it recorded, and then we did the video. I was in the video and it looked really cool. Started getting airplay and then the president of the record company DIED. So the entire bottom dropped out. And we were about the fifth one out in the "Summer of the bar fight" video. Toby Keith came out with "I Love This Bar," there was "Billy's Got his Beer Goggle's On" with Neil McCoy,(written by my friend Phillip White) and Montgomery Gentry had "Turn it Up, Hell Yeah!!" written by Jeff Steel.

We all had a really fun in the round down in Florida at the Frank Brown festival when Jeffery, Phillip White and myself were all playing our "drunk assed Party songs". We were all on stage with Jimbeau Hinson who wrote "Tonight I'm Looking for a Party Crowd." Then Jimbeau and Jeffery both had songs with the SAME TITLE, "Must Be Something in the Water." We all just laughed our butts off. WE get goofy sometimes.

So that is what happens. We are all writing the same stuff, 12 notes, 6 basic senses, 5 basic emotions. We are all living life, doing the same thing.

My suggestion is to always look at lines and ask, is there any way different to say this or have I heard this a million times before and can't WAIT to hear it again?

And things like the "Heart" or Angels" thing, I would just skip over. Move on to something else. You start hearing those trends in songs, find the next trend. And it will come. Live life and write reality. If you are going through it, chances are someone else is too.

MAB

You're right, and I think i've come up with a great hook, man I made it up myself then google it and there's my words all over the place that someone has already written...so i move on..

thanks Marc....glyn

Happens to everybody. I hit you on the Shout box.

M

Great thread, Glyn!

WOW post, Marc.. really makes me think, when writing from overseas.



This is great advice, and one can never get it too many times IMO (seems like you forget so many things during the course of writing..). The same thing applies for guitar players, who's trying to find the next great signature licks'n fills.

Nice one Marc,

I would add apart from the latest hated words, it's knowing where your tune is going melody wise, "The Vowel Triangle"

described in a book by Pat Pattison (A Professor of Berklee College)also know as (Beauty and the Beast)

In short Pat describes how there are Certain words to avoid at the higher range, and certain words that sing better at the lower range.

Listen to the high notes of Roy Orbison, and try substituting them for others, and you will find 99 percent of your chosen words will not work when the song peaks.

The same goes for the bottom range.

It's all about how the mouth forms itself re open vowels and closed vowels. < O----nely in dreams >(key letter here is an open vowel) < Yest-er-day > like the song sings better in that mid to low range (Yest- er-day) closed vowel.

Not many top writers use perfect rhyme any more because most have become cliches.

Hope this helps.

Cheyenne

Pat is a friend and co-writer of mine. Have taken a couple of his courses but not read any of his books.

MAB

Never say never.......if you catch my drift. Use whatever words you want.......but the advice given sounds as if it makes sense.
Cliches can spoil a song.

All right now Marc, I need some clarification here. I thought Thom Shepherd wrote "Riding with Private Malone"....Is there an inside story we need to know about?

Just curious.

Midnite

They tell you to keep it conversational, then they don't want you to use words that you would use in a conversation, like and, but, because, etc. Make up their minds won't they.

But then there's a song somebody mentioned later in the thread called "A Little More Country Than That." Then there was "That's That" by Hugh Prestwood sung by Michael Johnson I think. I had an English professor (he was an American who taught English not a professor who was from England) who said that "the word "that" is the most useless word in the English language." Ever since then I've been OCD about that word. I wish he'd never said that.

Then there's "just" which is still used a lot. That would leave out Billy Joel's first massive hit, "Just The Way You Are." (Don't tell me "Piano Man" came first, just humor me.)

And "And I Love Her" etc, etc. Of course, Billy Joel and The Beatles were self contained acts LOL.

When it comes to the start of a line, I try not to use that no good "that" and "and" or "but" but I still wind up using them. I never heard about not using "just" but for some reason half the time I want to use "just" my fingers type out "used." I can't figure that out. It started happening about three years ago. It's like a mental block for me. My fingers just tend to type out "used" instead of "just."

Sometimes I'll use a word but when I try to sing it, it has a sound that is like a brick wall. I think it's referred to a lot of times as a hard consonant sound.

Forget the rules just go with your instinct and what works for you. As mentioned earlier the powers that be keep changing their minds. IMO these rules that so called experts keep "inventing" do not even apply to or comply with existing hits so why bother adopting them for future hits.

Yeah Pat is a good teacher and that concept (some words sing poorly high, some low) is an excellent observation. I think he may have brought that up at one of our JPF Workshops a few years back when he was a JPF Mentor.

Hey Marc, how much are people writing for specific artists who are not actually in the inner circle of that particular artist? Is there any benefit to doing that at all? I'd think not, but nearly every entry level writer is just sure Song X they wrote is perfect for Artist X. Do Pro writers even consider that these days? Do you all go racing to find your file full of songs you wrote for Artist X when you hear she is going to start on a new album?

Writing from real life is really the best approach. JPF Mentor Steve Seskin always talks about listening to conversations in line at the grocery store checkout. I once tried an experiment an spent a day writing the most interest real life comments I heard around town in a single day. At the end I had more than enough material for several albums. Give it a try. Take a little recorder in your pocket or go old school and use a notepad. Then write to those comments and subjects. You'll be amazed at how much better your storylines ring true and original but not overused cliches. People tell their stories in ways that might sound un-cliche like sometimes but you may find you've stumbled upon a real life cliche that hasn't been beaten to death in song form. Jump on those.

Brian

Midnite,

Thom Shepard AND Wood Newton did write Private Malone. Wood was a lifelong friend and golfing buddy with David Ball and David had not had a hit in a while. So they cut it on him and went looking for a deal.Right after 9-11 there were a lot of demand for the "Military themed songs." What they did on that one is not so much make it about a war or military event, but about a soldier who died and his ghost looked after his prized car. Very cool way of saying the same thing differently.

The idea came from a newspaper story Thom read on the day of the writing session. It was his first cut and was number one for 6 weeks. The same situation used to happen to my Father and myself. We bought, sold and restored, old classic cars. Every once and a while we would buy a car from an older couple, who's son had gone to Nam and died. They get too old to deal with the car and need to sell it. We would do that. Found some pretty cool cars, a couple of 60's Mustangs and Chevy Bel Aires and such. Muscle cars got very big in the late 80's and 90's. That is part of what paid for me to move to Nashville.

The neat thing about that particular song was going to the Viet Nam memorial in DC with Wood and Thom. We were expecting some big story about the song and were all walking along. (We were in DC with an NSAI delegation lobbying Congress for copyright protection) So we get to this one panel and there are like Three Malones on the wall.

Wood tells us the story. He actually had a cousin who went to Nam' in 68'. Did two tours of duty and didn't get a scratch. On the night he got home, he went out drinking with some friends and was driving his most prized possesion, a 65 Corvette Roadster.

Sometime around Midnight, they found the car flipped in a ditch and his cousin dead. They didn't think he was drunk, think he fell asleep at the wheel. They didn't use his name because they wanted a little distance from the character. So they just made up the name Malone." Why? Because it rhymed with "HOME."

Big inner story.

MAB

Brian,

Glad to hear from you my friend. Come see me some time. You have a place to stay at my house/wayward songwriter's hotel, (unless someone else is in the room already.)

I don't think there is as much "writing for specific artists" unless you are writing with that artist. (Which really is the goal after all) WE all just write songs. The "grocery store line" example is exactly right. Mine and Wood's song, "Too Much Blood in My Alcohol Level" was something a guy said the night before in a bar.

WE all compile ideas, phrases, melody grooves, etc. all the time. Then we write them. Usually the fresher the better. They don't stay in the file cabinet for lone.

But I think (at least with me) we have artist "TARGETS." That dictates somewhat the style and gives us a place to work from. since I am teaching most of the time, and taking what I have learned from the pros, it is usually "What TYPE or STYLE" of song do you want to write? What kind of song is NOT in your catalogue? If there were any artist living or dead, you could write a song for, who would it be?"

Yesterday, I had a girl from West Virginia doing one of my tours. When we got to the writing part she started talking. She is from West Virginia, got laid off and is here seeing if she ca get a job and move here since she has to be somewhere and West Virginia isn't the hottest job market right now. So she was wanting an analytical look at her chances. She has almost all ballads, so we needed mid or up tempo.

The artist she loves is Martina McBride. So that means a "motorboat" feel on the guitar groove. The story is about... a woman over 45,divorced, moving to a new life and getting on with her world. Woman empowerment. Wow, just like the client's life. But we wrote in third person so that a younger artist could sing it. This girl is a very good singer with a big range, so the melody can flirt with a few notes, a lot of singers wouldn't take on. Same aspect as your "Pat Pattison" example above.

Now, every single day in this town are hundreds of artists and writers coming in and out. A LOT of girl's are influenced by Martina McBride. So we will have that song in a "Martina style" demo and pitch. Pitch sheets are always filled with unknowns who want "Martina like songs." There will always be new ones and those are the people you are shooting for.

That is mostly what we do. We are trying to write with as many artists as we can and that gives a more established "writing with them" instead of "writing for them." Aspect. When their lives are in the songs, they are going to have more invested in it.

With Frankie Ballard, the artist I have worked with who is on the charts now, all the songs were around his love of Southern Rock music, like Skynyrd and Allman Brothers, but with a definate country language and subject matter. I don't know where they are in his CD right now, you never really know, but I have 15 songs written with him. they have to look at overall direction and he is being produced by Micheal Knox, who produces Jason Aldeen and Trace Atkins. So who knows where this ends up.

You are constantly playing psycology with these people too. What can I play for some artist or producer that they might have "never thought of?" A few years ago I was working with a guy in Montgomery Alabama. I asked him the question, Who would you like to write for living or dead?" "Elvis" was his answer.

So we wrote this really funny song called "Elvis is Alive in my Bathroom Mirror" which had that "That's Alright Mama" groove and I did the demo with an Elvis inflection voice. I get it to my song plugger with not much expectations of anything. Novelty songs are not much in demand.

Lo and behold the guy who LOVED it was Josh Turner. It has a low voice that he likes and he plays the song for his friends. But he is not at a stage in his career where he can step out with his more humorous side like Brad Paisley does. Maybe one day.

So that is what most of us do. We write songs, and hopefully have a LOT of options for any eventuality. What do you have for...? is always the question. At 1867 songs in 7 years, I am pretty well covered for anything.

Then you have to be careful of what happens. We didn;t trademark the phrase "I've Got Too Much Blood in My Alchol Level" and lately I have seen hundreds of "I've Got Too Much Blood in My Alchohol SYSTEM" t-shirts. Oh well. Live and learn.

At least Thom Shepard did register "Redneck Yacht" club, as a brand. Should've seen that one coming.

Later guys, gotta go teach a workshop today on performance. If any of you are around the Music Row area, drop by. I am teaching at 12:00-1:00 always like to meet you face to face.

MAB

Thanks Marc!

Thom was, maybe still is, the NSAI Mentor of a northern Virginia chapter, so I saw him several times when I still lived up there. He never mentioned a co-writer. And since I couldn't imagine you being wrong about such a seminal song, I figured there had to be something more to the story.

Thanks for such a touching inside glimpse!!

And along the lines of this thread, there was the "Redneck" phase a coupla years ago, and Thom was one of the co-writers on "Redneck Yacht Club" that he sang for us before it was released and you could tell at the first listen that it was gonna be a hit...Then on his next visit, when the song was number 1, he informed us that due to cutbacks, he had just been let go as a Staff Writer.

It was right about then that I started working on screenplays instead of songs....Tough Biz.

Midnite

I couldn't agree more, Big Jim! One must have an innate sense or 'feel' for the correct words to use in a particular song. Oh...And, long live the word outlaws! heh heh...

Isthmus. It just never works.

Hey Ben, I'll have you know I wrote a song back in the 80's called "The Antidisestablishmentarianism Blues". Not even kidding...

Thanks for correcting me Mark. I left "Anti" off of the word. It IS a mouthfull. I can see it being used in a song.

Hey, Her Bethness used "supercalifragilisticexpealidocious" in a bluegrass song ("Syllables for Sale"). Yes, it had been used before (only once, though)--but she made it rhyme with something.

I think the whole dictionary is fair game. Yes, one needs to be different--either saying something new, or something old in a new way (there is no point in plowing ground already tilled by folks more famous)--but I ain't avoiding words. If my dead animals need that "heart/apart" couplet, for instance (and considering that they're dead, they may), I'll use it, and not worry.

Joe

The only two I can really comment on is Heart/Apart (or start)
and Love/Above.

I can assure you I have been told several times by people whom I have PAID for good advice to not use those words/rhymes in my songs. And they proved why I should not use them when they sang their own songs that had those very same words in them.
The experts have used them all up.

Of course any filler words are out. Write tight.

THAT is total nonsense AND I can prove it, you should stay "JUST the way you are" BUT we can't have and sell songwriting books if there aren't rules to write about. lol

Actually it all depends on the song and where YOU are coming from.
Go look at Grammy winner Norah Jones's lyric and tell me she ever paid any attention to any song writing book or workshop ever.

Run it by the top RAP hits which are the most popular songs in the world right now and see how many books they read about the rules of songwriting.

And then take a a rock band and give them a whirl on lyrics...

All THESE things totally depend on

1- What your doing musically/style wise and career wise.

***2- If your NOT writing very good songs*** these things are noticeable.
They stick out and are a distraction. Yes naturally it is HOW you use, - and's - but's - just etc.... They should compliment and aid the song, and also be subtle. When they are followed by something effective they become effective and not such a no no...

That said it is good to make a conscious effort to try to avoid them and over use them. For YOU in which non of the above situations apply it makes more sense.... I just want you to be aware of that regardless.

We keep hearing DONT DO THIS and yet we still keep hearing the don't do's ALL over the radio year after year after year...

There are RULES and they only apply to the unconnected!

Midnite,

Actually since all that, Thom has found an investor and has his own publishing and production company. He is producing and dating a girl who is GORGEOUS and a Great singer. Amazing hair. I cannot remember her name but she is VERY hot. He also merchandises lines of "Redneck Yaght club merchandise, coozies, t-shirts, hats, etc. He is actually doing pretty well.

Most people want to have their own publishing companies. Staff deals are usually the first step toward that.


Mike, that is actually true and not true. If you are the artist, you can get away with anything. There are no rules. The people you are talking about, Norah Jones, rap artists, etc. are all self contained writers and artists. That is a different entity. And a totally different approach.

Most of the people from the outside trying to pitch songs to other artists, who use film and pitch libraries and services, etc. who do this will be CREAMED. And often it is not just the rhymes or the cliches', it is the predictable, nothing out of the ordinary songs. They just really don't do anything to stand out.

I just left a songwriter's festival that has been going on for three days, and before that I was in Atlanta for three days. The problem is not that songs are bad, most arent. They are just average. When you have a very average, or mediocre song, and you are not the artist, you are going nowhere.

Adding those cliche's, words, overused subject matter, overused titles, redundant melodies, songs outside the frameworks, and not observing the (not rules but strong suggestions) are just ways to increase the reason that industry people say "NO." You are in effect competing with them in their own songs, their own artists, etc If you don't bring them anything they don't already have too much of, you are not bringing them anything. It is all about standing out. Most songs and writers simply don't stand out.

And until you do that you can know every body in the business. But that doesn't mean they are going to do a thing for you. It is not who you know. It is who knows you and how they know you.

MAB

Hi Marc

Yes that's why I also mentioned (quote) what's above... That Glynda was non of the above mentioned, but wanted her to know the differences,same as you pointed out. Of course being a stand alone writer is the toughest spot to be in. You only have Country and Teen Pop mainly to be involved with.

As for TV & Films that has little to nothing to do with being the artist from Glynda's stand point. As she can a have song turned into what totally appears to be an artist or band song and then pitch that product to film/TV by getting or hiring someone to do it. Hard regardless but at least self do-able.

It's what I have to do mainly now OR completely change everything about the way I make music. (At this stage)

That is the small tiny crack we have of getting any work placed anywhere realistically. Where we get a small taste of the convenience an artist(singer/songwriter) or band gets.

I agree with you a 100%

Mike,

Glad to hear from you. I am seeing more and more competition in film libraries, TAXI, as well. They are wanting songs that adhere to the same rules we talk about. In my conversations with people like Micheal Laskow, of TAXI and even today at the songwriter's festival, Steve McClintock, a hit writer with cuts on Tiffany, The Nelsons as well as country stars, who lives and works in LA in the film business, was disussing this just today.

They are becoming more and more picky on what is pitched as those relationships are getting prickly as well and the level is getting higher and higher. Frankly they have a lot to choose from as well.

So I would say overall it is getting harder and harder no matter how you look at it. And by skipping rules and suggestions, it just makes it that much harder. And right now it is nearly impossible even for those who do everything exactly right and have their own styles, attitudes and million dollar smiles.

Tough competitive world.

Hope you are feeling okay my friend.

MAB

Words "not to use"
The list is long
They don't fit in
They don't belong
But not so fast
They just might fool
When used just so
They might be cool
When melody is memorable
It takes away the sting
And words that once were called "taboo"
Become a passing thing
So put no word upon a shelf
Give all their due fair shake
They someday might surprise you
When a hit they help you make!

Like Lynn.... I would suggest that there are no words you should "never" use... there are a lot as Marc said are overused... but it all comes down to what you are writing... in general the "New thing" (which has been about for more years than I've been writing) is the song/ lyric should be conversational... words you'd use when speaking normally in the way you'd normally speak ... however there are a lot of songs about angels, beer, pick up trucks, my wife and so on... so we need to find either new exciting ways to tell an old story or new words to say the same thing....

Take care

Cheers

moon, june, love, dove --- nah not really. Sometimes it all can work. No absolute rules.

One interesting song recently is by Miranda Cosgrove, aka Carly as in I Carley. One of the songs on her new cd is "Its Disguesting" --- which is a great song.


Tom

HiDee Mz G!

"Wifebeater" is one that comes-to-mind...heh...THO I did use it recently in my Co- with Heather (to describe an Undershirt)...

There Are "Exceptions" to every rule.

BUT..(If you remember that Thread on "A$$ in the Sand")..there's a LOT of "Bending" lately on What Not To Say.

I think I'd RATHER hear a Swear Word than a Cliched-Rhyme like "Love/Dove/Above"...(which to MY ear indicates a Rather-LAZY or WAYyyy Too-ELDERLY Songwriter)...but, IF it WORKS-OK and the audience isn't heading for the Bathrooms pukin'-away, What The Hey!

Always HELPS to keep an ear open for "What The Kids are Listening-To"...to keep-up with What's-Going-Well.

You AREN'T gonna hear MANY new ones with "Groovy" in 'em, Methinks! ;-)>

Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

Fewer pronouns, more active verbs. Leave spaces for the trombone.