JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Free songwriting software! I've been using it a few weeks

If I'm not supposed to post this, please remove it

http://www.world-of-songwriting.com/free-songwriting-software.html

Dottie

Note from Brian: Who said you weren't supposed to post this? They're full of BS. I am the only Sheriff in these parts and I think it was very nice of you to post it. For those who missed it, Dottie found some free songwriting software. I don't personally know much about it, but you can read the comments below of those who gave it a try. Thanks Dottie!

Brian

Wow Dottie.. looks and feels real impressive especially with the

feature...

Thanks

God Bless Roy and Helen

You are very welcome! I think you'll like it

Dottie

Hi Dottie:

Thanks for sharing. I'm always pretty cautious about "free" software but this looks interesting and worth more exploration. Do you have any idea how much space this package requires on the user's hard drive?

Can you give us a brief list of benefits and your negative findings or dislikes, if any?

Regards,

Dave

What about the music?......a lyric is just a poem without a melody. IMO and that of others whose judgments count for more than mine it is the melody and production that sells a song lyrics are in the overall picture not that important.

Hi Jim:

You make an interesting point. It looks like this software is for lyrics only but that, in itself, is important. After all, a melody without a lyric is just a composition. In 75% of the cases involving great songs, I'd agree with your comment wholeheartedly... but there are exceptions... and it takes both elements in the final analysis.

I'm still interested in knowing more about this software package and have written the site to see what they can tell us.

Regards,

Dave

I downloaded this and started using it successfully. It takes 28 megabytes of hard drive and includes a thesaurus and rhyming dictionary.

Thanks Colin:

I have not received a reply from them yet... but you provided exactly what I needed to know.

Regards,

Dave

Sorry I'm a little slow replying. Yes it's just for writing lyrics but it's a very quick painless download. It doesn't add anything to your pc that I've noticed, you don't have to do anything but download it and use. Being that it's totally free I thought it was pretty cool.

I'm not trying to promote it and I'm in no way associated with this, I was just sharing what I found.

Dottie

. IMO and that of others whose judgments count for more than mine it is the melody and production that sells a song lyrics are in the overall picture not that important.

So, how would "Amazing Grace" sound without the lyrics? "Lyrics are in the overall picture not that important". I can't believe I'm reading this comment on this board, though I recall discussions about it. You, sir, are incorrect.
Also,I don't use songwriting software. It's like the paint-by-numbers of my childhood. Just fill in the spaces, color #4. Ott

Bad example Ott.. Amazing Grace is done as an instrumental all the time and often very beautifully. = )

Brian

...... especially by pipers.

cheers, niteshift

I downloaded this program a year or so back and realized I was better off with a hard-cover thesaurus next to my desk. That may be just a matter of my own preferred work flow but it does seem cumbersome and essentially unnecessary.

OTT Even Hymns are just poems without a good tune to sing them to....LOL I accept that religious music and some genres like country rely more on lyrics than other genres but even that said most people will remember the catchy tune before any lyrics. Whether we like it or not it is the "Old grey whistle test" that sells a song lyrics although necessary are not as important.
Whilst most listeners hum a melody all the way through they struggle to remember more than a couple of lines of most songs.

Brian & Big Jim:
For sure, I love the melody. I'm of the opinion, however, that the lyrics, sung by a competent vocalist, greatly enhance the listening experience . . . at least for me.
Ott

What you say is true Ott.....however melody is the most important thing that determines any songs success. Here is some interesting reading.
http://garyewer.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/how-important-are-lyrics-to-the-success-of-a-song/
http://ezinearticles.com/?Basics-of-Songwriting-Part-4---Song-Melody&id=3455710

Lyrics are important because they put a face on the song. There is a personality involved, i.e. the vocalist, rather than a bunch of instrumentalists. Almost no one, other than other players, cares about those instrumentalists but there are loads of listeners out there wanting to connect with a charismatic vocalist. This, I think, is why so little instrumental music makes it onto the pop charts. Practically none these days.

Do the words actually have to be all that good or even make sense? Probably not! But I'm personally enough of a perfectionist to want them to stand as, well, art. Which has little or nothing to do with commercial success, I know, but that's no reason not to make an effort.

Hi Stephen I am not saying that lyrics are NOT important so much as saying that THE melody is IMO more important than lyrics....... that is what sells the song. Of course a song has to have lyrics otherwise it is an instrumental and as you say people want to hear singing generally. Judging by todays chart music the quality of the lyrics does not mean much in the big picture of things.....most teenagers cannot communicate properly through speach anyway so asking them to listen to, undertand or relate to profound lyrics is a bridge too far LOL.

I would like some evidence that lyrics are unimportant in popular music or older music.
Has anyone done a study to determine which came first, melody or lyric?

Of the top songs done for the last 100 years which were done lyrics first which were melody first?

Amazing Grace is a typical example. Without the Lyric would the melody exist?

It is my belief that melody is determined by the lyrics.

Having said that I wish I knew how to write better melodies to my own songs.
We should have a forum on that.

Well, I was sort of saying that the artist, the personality, the performer, is often more important than the song. Lyrics OR melody. Of course, the artist does need some sort of lyrics to mouth. In rap, that's pretty much all that's needed!

At the risk of sounding sexist, I think that female listeners tend to be more interested in the lyrics. I can think back to my own teenage days (yes, I can remember back that far...with the help of notes) and the guys were mostly interested in the riffs and such and the girls would buy magazines full of lyrics and pore over them. I suppose they look them up online these days.

I do know that all of the songs from Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals were written music first.

I also know that the songs from Rodgers and Hart musicals were written lyrics first.

So which are better? Beats me!

I think this little bit of dialogue from the movie "Music and Lyrics" sums it up nicely:

Alex Fletcher: It doesn't have to be perfect. Just spit it out. They're just lyrics.
Sophie Fisher: "Just lyrics"?
Alex Fletcher: Lyrics are important. They're just not as important as melody.
Sophie Fisher: I really don't think you get it.
Alex Fletcher: Oh. You look angry. Click your pen.
Sophie Fisher: A melody is like seeing someone for the first time. The physical attraction. Sex.
Alex Fletcher: I so get that.
Sophie Fisher: But then, as you get to know the person, that's the lyrics. Their story. Who they are underneath. It's the combination of the two that makes it magical.

Bill et Al
Amazing Grace is a very bad example it has had over twenty diff melodies....many hymns and Psalms have alternative melodies.
Religious music is obviously more about the words than music but even that said I bet that most peoples favourites are more because of the catchy tunes than the words. I do not think that writing lyrics first or music first has any bearing on the discussion or proves anything. A good song is a good song regardless of what came first.
I am not saying that lyrics are not important. I am saying that people remember the tune and that is what sticks not the words. I bet very few people can even recite the words to Amazing Grace...WHEREAS MOST PEOPLE CAN HUM THE TUNE. In the days of tin pan alley song producers tested out prospective songs on old grey doormen...they played the song and if after just one listen the guys whistled the tune then it was deemed a winner. This was referred to as the Old Grey Whistle Test. Lyrics were not even discussed.
I bet that many great hits would still have been hits with lesser lyrics. I doubt the same would apply if the melody was changed. I also bet that most people can only sing a few odd words from a few songs but will remember many many tunes from beginning to end.
In fact there are numerous songs where people sing the wrong words completely...thinking they are the correct lines. Some of the results are hilarious and there are many examples....here are just some....
http://www.kissthisguy.com/1305misheard.htm

I think if people paid much attention to lyrics then such mistakes would not happen so often.

Re rap being about lyrics..... well most of the words are gibberish and undecipherable..... and there is little or no melody in which case imo it is only the beat and rhythm that sells.

Now I have no facts to prove anything BUT try writing a great lyric with a rubbish melody and the whole song sucks and will never sell....
Try writing a great melody with any old lyrics and you could have a gret hit......It has been done hundreds of times and will probably continue to be done.
Now a great tune with great lyrics is the ultimate but I bet more people like it cause of the melody...lyrics are just an afterthouth.....I generalise of course and there will be excepetions however that does not mean that the general rule is wrong.

Well now Mr Big Jim I must say
That was a well thought out and lucid explanation and defense of your point.
You might be right.

On the other hand I wonder how many people can actually hum the melody note for note?
Just a thought.

Bill.....it is a testimony to Autotune and Melodyne that most pop stars stay reasonably in tune. Sometimes I wish some of the folks could lip sync on karaoke....or better still some of the so called stars restricted themselves to singing in their local karaoke. Remember that rules are meant to be broken... LOL

Seriously my point is not meant to provoke argument but to provoke thought.......If what I say is true then all lyricists HAVE to find great melodies otherwise their great lyrics will fall on deaf ears.

As a singer I sometimes may forget the lyrics but will never forget the tune......even though I may not always sing in tune LOL

OK. Is it "lyrics are to melody as a chicken is to an egg", or "a melody is to a lyric as an egg is to a chicken"? And, to get even more philosophical, "why did the chicken cross the road?" And, of course you would have to discuss which came first, the chicken and the lyric, or the melody and the egg . . .
Maybe the chicken crossed the road to write a song. And it turns out it laid an egg (melody or lyric wise). . . and the song was toast, which happens in the real world too often . . .
I've got to stop free-associating.
Ott

We have discussed the lyric / melody debate on this very board over the years. As I recall, melody always wins. This does not mean lyrics are unimportant, just that melody are MORE important.

Huh ? Songwriting software ?

It's not anywhere close. It just rhymes words. It's a glorified word processor for those cannot write and don't have any imagination.

What ever happened to a notepad and pencil ? Whatever happened to talent ?

AND, it doesn't even compose or support basic musical structure. Does anyone remember actual music being present in a song ?

What a load of rubbish ! No wonder it's free.

cheers, niteshift

Lol c'mon nite, it's just a tool. You don't critisize a hammer for only being useful to hammer nails into things. You just use it if you prefer it to the garden stone :-)

VersePerfect looks interesting, allthough a little complicated? I use Master Writer, and it has helped my workflow tremenduously when writing and rewriting lyrics.

But maybe some of you can tell more in detail about how you are using this?

Hi Dottie!

Thanks a lot! That's exactly what I was looking for!!

All the best
Jimmy

Hey Magne,

No, I think a better analogy would be.....

Do birds need parachutes ? Do goldfish wear life jackets ?

How about just learning to write a song...... that may work. Software like this is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

cheers, niteshift

Personally I subscribe to "a tool is a tool" mindset. While I am not inclined to download/use this software, if it helps someone with creative process and/or productivity, more power too them.

I've worked with clients who use various mind-mapping software, for connecting (or visualizing the connecting) of ideas. I prefer a simpler tool - just an ongoing stream of ideas document or a notepad.

I spoke to a college on Friday on Creativity & Innovation. 3 primary concepts: 1) thought/idea origination, 2) advancing ideas and fostering innovative teams, 3) organizing ideas. The last one is on the pragmatics/tools you can use.

But the first really deals with filters or fear that kill ideas. For some, a tool like this software can remove a barrier to production and/or creativity. It is just a tool or a construct.

For me, I read Stephen King's book, "On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft" and agree with his approach. Basically, waiting on your "muse" or inspiration is less important than showing up at the same time, same place, everyday so your muse knows where to find you. Then, even if he/she (your muse) does not show up, you are there to do the heavy lifting. And besides, she's attracted to that..

In any case, whether by tool or by focused diligence or by sheer dumb luck, people need to find and utilize the tools or process that best works for them. If this software does that, perfect!

I tend to agree with Nite.....there comes a point when the skill of telling a story using rhyme and meter is lost because a word processor churns out meaningless garbage that rhymes and syllable counts.
I do not think that such "tools" will ever compensate for a good education and a working knowledge of language, songwriting and music production but it might helps peed up the process.
I was in the studio only yesterday and the guys were discussing different plugins that they use for mastering and editing etc. One guy liked a certain program whilst another used different software........each had its pros and cons. Each served a purpose.
The concensus was that at the end of the day results come down to "ears and experience".....the tools of preference just help you get there faster.

OK Here is a profound statement for Ott based on the chicken egg scenario. Why did the duck cross the road?.....cause it was the chickens day off.
Think about it.......

Gotta disagree, Niteshift. It's just a tool, it works, and a free one at that. I, personally, would not use it so much to write a song from scratch, but it's handy for tweaking / perfecting a lyric. It gives you syllable count for each line and rhymes for each end rhyme. Cut and paste and see problem areas with syllable count. Get ideas for other end rhymes that could take the song to a better place, giving you a spark of an idea to take the story to a new place.

I do not write with rhyme book in hand but I do use one from time to time to stimulate ideas. Writing a lyric is easy. Writing a great lyric is another matter. My method is to write, write, write, sing, sing, sing, write, write, write, sing, sing, sing. Until it's as good as I can get it. And that does not happen in a couple of hours. For me. It takes many hours of work. A tool can help.

This is true
Yet we do not have a melody forum. Why is that?

Is it because melodies are so easy? or the opposite? Too hard to discuss.

I would really like to understand why melody is so important and more importantly why it is so hard. What does melody do for a song. I hear words like tension and release and really don't understand the concepts.
If there are only twelve notes how can there be so many variations.
Well I got to thinking on that. Is it a Mathematics issue?
It seems there are a LOT of possible combinations.
Twelve notes using each note only once I think gives you ?????? 479001600 possible melodies,
Holy Cow! is that right?
And that's if you only use each note once and only sing twelve notes.
If you do a 24 note riff it would be??????????
620448401733239439360000. possible combinations and that's only using each note twice?

Someone tell me this isn't so. Did I do the math right?

Then you add in the Octaves. You can sing a middle C then go up an Octave to Cand then Drop back two Octaves to C.
OMG I am getting a headache just thinking about it.
How will I ever figure out how to use them.

I think it's because the internet attracts more wordsmiths than musicians. It's a piece of cake to type a lyric and post it...more involved for an MP3, and also very uncomfortable for a musician to post something unfinished...whereas a lyric is often thought of as finished.

Very difficult to discuss melody, yes it is. It's like that old "dancing about architecture" quote...it's easy to discuss words with words, but not so easy to discuss melody and chord structure with words.

Thanks for posting Dottie, thoughtful of you to share.

I haven’t looked at this tool, but the bottom line is (no pun intended) if it works for you then that’s great. We all have our own ways of recording lyrics (and melodies) there is no right or wrong way, just what is right for you. And if you find a tool that makes what you do easier or more enjoyable then that’s great.

All roads lead to Rome

Wow, I just thought it might be helpful! True it won't write a song for you and is nothing to compared to some of the software you can buy!

I feel like rocks are being thrown at me for even posting such garbage! Sorry! My bad.

Dottie

Dottie.

It isn't garbage and I thank you for think of us.

It is usefull especially the Hyperbolic Thesaurus IMO.

Also the links bult in to vaious internet resorces is very useful.

Of course some still use pen and paper or even word but that is their preferance.

I still use my usual methods but this tool is an added too.

Thanks from me

God Bless Roy and Helen

Thanks Roy and Nigel, Duke

Maybe a few people will find it somewhat usefull.

I think the best feature is the syllable count. I can throw a lyric in there and it save a little time.

It's free! I didn't expect a lot from it.

Dottie

Hey Dottie,

You're Ok mate, you provoked and brought up a great discussion, and provided a useful tool in the arsenal.

I guess my point was, that song writing is not about syllable counts, or perfect rhymes. It's about relating an experience or a feeling of life in 3 or 4 minutes. A place in time, or a story, distlled down to an essence.

I think great writers have that ability, because they have a certain way with words. And that comes from the experiences they have in life, and the ability they have to translate that exprience into art. ( whatever form )

It has a syllable counter ? Well, that just kinda says it all.

Throw the programme out. Get a pad and paper, write, doodle, draw lines from one concept to another, underline, overline, circle, scribble out, scrunch up and throw in the bin, write and re-write, file for further use, or do as you please. And paper doesn't need a power supply.

cheers, niteshift

Nightshift,

I don't understand, you're saying I shouldn't be concerned with syllable counting? I thought good lyric writing was about relating an experience or a feeling of life in 3 or 4 minutes but doing it in a manner that is accepted. A rhyme scheme, flow, meter, syllable counting is a part of that, I thought? I don't try to make it perfect but I do try to get it pretty close. So this is very confusing to me when I hear people say that's not important.

I'm very confused!

Dottie

I think and possibly Nite would agree that this program is the equivalent for lyric writing that painting by numbers is for artists. Top painters do not need to paint by numbers they can start with a blank canvas and produce a masterpiece.
Whilst all the things like rhyming, flow, meter etc are part of a lyricist's craft he should not need a tool to do this for him it should come naturally. I also think that the essence of great lyric writing draws on skills which has nothing to do with such a program.
That said any tool that people find useful is well worth using.

Lyrics should be conversational and contain words that most of us easily understand......if we need dictionaries or thesaurus and syllable counters etc we are probably making fundamental errors in our approach. JMO.

lyrics are in the overall picture not that important

Hi Jim,

Don't let MAB hear ya say that. LOl. Actually I always looked at ti like the melody is what pulls you in, the lyrics are what kepp you coming back. Just me. LOl. One thing is for sure, anymore you need both for a great song. Take care,
Roger

I like having a thesaurus and, sometimes, a rhyming dictionary on hand. I do find it quicker and easier not to use an all-in-one program like this but for someone else it might just be the thing.

Lyrics: I love witty lyrics. My idols are writers like Dorothy Field, Cole Porter. I recognize that much -- probably most -- of the public does not share that taste. But that won't keep me from shooting for that level!

After all, there's no excuse for writing bad lyrics no matter whether they or the tune is more important.

Come on Big Jim. 'Painting by numbers'in deed.

It's a tool. Nothing more nothing less, to be used occationally as and when needed.

It dosn't write lyrics or work out structure or flow.

I often count sylabals and use a thesaurus so I must be lacking and making errors in my approach.

Ummmmm

'Lyrics should be conversational and contain words that most of us easily understand'

The above is true but some of us don't remmemer every word we know. It's an age thing. We need to be reminded at times. The trick is knowing which word to use and where to use it and how to use it and that is not a feature of any software that I know of.

God Bless Roy and Helen

Sorry Dottie.
I am guilty of hijacking your thread.

Garbage? Nonsense.
Any program you use to help you along on the path to songwriting or music creation is worth using and investigating.
At some point you may outgrow the program and move on to something else. Nothing wrong with that.
Some folks just think they are above such programs. That's their bad.

Nothing wrong with counting syllables but the stress or "beat" and how they fall on the syllables is more important. Always remember to tap that foot.

Precisely Bill ! Excuse me, have to go and sharpen my quill, catch a squid, and beat out a piece of parchment.

What's a "programe", anyways ?

cheers, niteshift

Thanks Dottie, I'm not sure if I will use it or not but certainly it can do no harm to have a rhyming dictionary and thesaurus to hand, I'm not so big on lyrics and the discussion here is one that time does not allow me to participate in.

I think that a good tune does not need lyrics, it will still be a good tune. Lyrics impart meaning to a song where-as music only implies meaning.

Why is it so many are terrified by lyric writers? So much so that they have to cast dispersions at every opportunity.

Why the need to attack and be hurtful?

What does it prove other than personal weakness and insecurity?