JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Native American Indians invented the Blues

Hi All

I'm currently researching the origins and history of the Mississippi Delta Blues, from one very specific perspective, which is the contribution that Native American Indian Nations such as the Choctaw and Cherokee made at the very beginning of the blues.

I'm anxious to collate as many ideas and facts regarding this subject, as the central thesis of my research is that the blues was originally a re-interpretation of Native American 'Round and Stomp' dances played in Juke-Joints on the plantations of the Mississippi flood planes.

Obviously, the blues is most associated with the Southern African American communities, a fact which may render this 'thesis' controversial. However I do believe there exists enough evidence to make this case and I am by far not the only one supporting the theory.

My Thesis in a Nutshell

After the American Civil War (1865) the emancipated plantation workers became share-croppers. While the Removals Acts (Starting in 1831) - had clear out most Native Americans to Oklahoma, a small amount of Mississippi Choctaw Indians remained in Mississippi where they worked as share-croppers side by side with their African American neighbours.

During the period after the Civil War, the Plains Indians began to revolt and war with the Union Forces. These were the so called Indian Wars. The Bureau of Indian Affairs was set up specifically to acculturate (assimilate) Native Americans into mainstream culture.

Tragically one of the main devices employed was to outlaw the use Native languages, the practise of Nation American culture and religion. As today Native Indians celebrate their music and culture at Pow Wow, so too did the Native Americans (mainly Chickasaw and Choctaw) indigenous to Mississippi before such culture pursuits were banned.

So, just like 'the prohibition of alcohol' later, the prohibition of Native American culture drove Native musicians under-ground so to speak. In the Juke-Joints (makeshift bars) on Mississippi Plantations, as well as playing all manner of Tin Pan Alley, jigs, reels, hornpipes, spirituals, field hollars, etc. etc., the musicians many of whom were Native American Chowtaw, such as Charley Patton, Scrapper Blackwell and others, played a re-interpretation of 'Stomp and Round' dances with Fife, Whistle, Guitars and Washboards. I believe this early form of blues was originally called 'Hokum' - the word which European settled used to describe the language - 'Hokan-Sioux' spoken why Native Americans. While this was mainly dance music, the 'call and response' pattern which is identical to that of Indian 'Stomp' would originally have been sung in Native Language.

As time went on, some of these lyrics would have been translated into English. One unique characteristic of the blues is the way 'standard lyrical phrases' were used time and time again by different blues musicians. I believe the reason for this was that originally that only a 'finite loop' of original 'hokum' lyrics were translated into English and as the music was mainly dance music, the quality of the lyric wasn't held to be all that important.

When the sound recording industry started in the 1920's however things changed. One of the first 'pop record' markets ever was in the Southern States of America. Virgin companies like Columbia and Yazoo recorded and sold blues music to a mainly African American audience. These were the infamous 'Race Records' - arguably the first pop records ever produced.

Charley Patton was almost a clear generation older than Robert Johnson. While the main appetite was for blues - the recording companies stipulated that in order to get a recording contract (no royalties) a musician would have to sing original lyrics in English, as Native Indian Culture was still outlawed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and the companies couldn't risk loosing money on their investments as a result of censorship.

Hence the reason why Robert Johnson became so famous, because as well as being a young skilful player he was arguably one the best and most original lyricist amongst the blues men. Indeed this fact may also had given rise to popular music's obsession with 'originality' - the whole thing about 'a cover band' but being as good as a band that writes it's own stuff. No such prejudice is found in traditional folk music or classical music.

No-one goes to see the New York Philharmonic Orchestra and comes out saying - "Well they were good - but unfortunately they didn't play their own stuff!" Originality seems therefore to be the preserve of 'pop' music?

Lastly, many of the very earliest blues lyrics (Patton in particular) seem to have distinctly Native American Themes and may relate to the 'Trail of Tears' - the removal of Native Americans from their traditional homelands to Oklahoma.

Themes such as 'walking' and 'going home' and 'hound dogs on the trail' not to mention 'rider' the word that young Native Americans used to call a girlfriend, as they would collect them on horse back and take them for a ride.

Finally, I have my own views about the themes of 'the devil' and the 'crossroads' which I'll keep for now!

All Suggestions, Criticisms and opinions welcome guys!

Regards

ColmT

thats a very interesting thesis you have there Colm!

and you explain it so well-like a real scholar-have you an academic background or current university connection? you certainly sound like it.......am much impressed by your knowledge of the subject.......you are definitely a real blues historian judging by this and other posts you have done on the subject....I cannot add anything except to lamely offer a Google page of links that popped up when I queried "Native American Indian Blues Music"...hope it is of some help though knowing your depth and research skills you have probaly already done that.....

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF...amp;q=native+american+indian+blues+music

your thesis is really quite intellectually stimulating.......never occurred to me thats for sure.......good luck with your research!



Tom

Colin,

Interesting theory.I doubt you will find many that will subscribe to it.You will find that most types of music had simultaneous beginnings. But it really falls to those that bring it to the mainstream that are credited with actually inventing anything. And you will probably get quite a deal of argument from the African American community that can show origins in Africa hundreds of years before it showed up here. I don't really think there were too many Choctaw indian tribes in Africa.

So claiming one person or another "invented" anything is kind of an excercise in futility. There is always going to be someone else that will claim origins hundreds of years before anyone you can name were even born.

I should tell you that my Father's family was from Philidelphia Mississippi, one of the largest communities of Choctaw indians, and that a distant cousin of mine was Jimmie Rodgers, who is credited with being the "Father of country music." The only reason I mention that is that I am familiar with claims of Indian's creating the blues. Interesting theory.

The fact is that the Blues, like all music has many fathers and often completely independent of each other. From the Blues of St. Louis that came from Riverboats, the blues of New Orleans with it's jazz traditions, the blues of Memphis, Mississippi,etc. you are probably going to find that there is no true way to prove anything and you will find many conflicting points of view. You will also probably find many of them will make the same claims as you are making for their own versions.
When you get into trying to re-write history or challenge people's opinions of their roots, you will probably find a lot of push back.

But I do wish you luck in your journey. Always interesting to get other perspectives.

MAB

Fascinatin' Stuff, Colm-Migo!

I'm perpetually Interested in ROOTS..whatever they be.

I'm also appalled at how us "Early Americans" treated the Natives Here. (Hmm...we didn't JUST steal their Land..we killed their Languages & Stole their Music?)

The Truth has a Way of always leaking out. Keep up your Research, Amigo, & DO get it all Back to Us!

Thanks! Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

It's human nature Stan.
The victor always tries to obliterate the conquered.
The French did it to England. If they hadn't been overthrown we would be speaking French.
Before that Islam. If they hadn't been kicked out we'd be speaking Arabic.
And the Native American Indian Tribes did it to each other.

It is what we do.

I'm wondering if there are examples of this Native American music we could hear. Might be interesting to hear the influences.

The NA communities were certainly 'there' at the birth of the blues, so I wouldn't be surprised if they influenced the development some. But they were very much outnumbered by other ethnic populations that also played a part -- the African-American, of course, and your own Irish countrymen for that matter.

I've long felt there was a definite Celtic component to the blues, especially early, more folk-like songs such as 'Careless Love.' Everyone played a part, most likely, as Marc was pointing out.

Good luck, ColmT, interesting thesis! The NA tribes certainly had plenty to be blue about. It is sickening how they were treated.

Hi Tom

'Missy' is coming along good, should have a rough cut by the weekend.

Interestingly, you're right, while I'm not an historian I have a degree's in Philosophy, Economics, Irish Common Law and Computer Science - so academic I guess! Strange when you think I'm a writer and a musician - 'Longest way around ... I guess! LOL

Thanks for the support! I'll PM on Missy as soon as I'm ready!

Rock On Buddy

ColmT

P.S. - Thanks for the link Tom!

Historically, the rules of life are set by the aggressive use of military force. It always tickles me to hear people speaking of the "peaceful indians." They were some of the most violent nomadic warriors on earth. One tribe conquered the other. That is how they ended up on the lands they ended up in.

As far as music goes, all music is an amalgamation of styles and influences. As we all find here almost every day, most of the songs that are out there are copies of existing songs. Even songs we write ourselves are usually found in other places, even though we may have never heard them at all.

We all borrow and steal from each other. Is the way of the world since the beginning of time.

MAB

'Sickening' is very much on target -- European diseases killed way more Native Americans than bullets ever did. To some degree, the white folks filled a vacuum left by so many NA dying and leaving large areas under-populated.

Note that old Cortez was chased out of Mexico the first time he invaded. The next year, half the Aztecs had died from the diseases his troops had carried and he had little problem subduing the rest.

At least they got back at us some by sending syphilis back to Europe, circa 1493.

Hi MAB

Thanks for this buddy!

"Interesting theory.I doubt you will find many that will subscribe to it.You will find that most types of music had simultaneous beginnings. But it really falls to those that bring it to the mainstream that are credited with actually inventing anything."

I agree this Marc, however my intention is to uncover the NA communities contribution. There's no point in trying to contend that Robert Johnson, Blind Willie McTell, MS John Hurt (and all the rest) weren't some of the greatest blues musicians that every lived and that the 'Race Records' weren't the beginning of the blues as we known it today! That said it is the threads of the NA's involvement which have been 'positively obscured' in most historical accounts of the blues, in my view.


"And you will probably get quite a deal of argument from the African American community that can show origins in Africa hundreds of years before it showed up here. I don't really think there were too many Choctaw indian tribes in Africa."

Two men that I'm sure you are familiar with John And Alan Lomax, carried out a decade of detailed research in the Southern States and later in West Africa, all commissioned by the Library of Congress in Washington. While they recorded a vast and invaluable collection of early blues and traditional African tribal music, field hollers and prison blues .... their specific objective was to discover what they referred to as the 'West African Link' in blues music. That was (and is) evidence within West Africa Music which point to blues structure, rhythm or tuning. According to Alan and his father John Lomax, after conducting the most detailed and extensive research into the blues they found no hard evidence .... for their West Africa Link.

"So claiming one person or another "invented" anything is kind of an excercise in futility. There is always going to be someone else that will claim origins hundreds of years before anyone you can name were even born."

Again you are absolutely correct here Marc! The great historian JR Hartley once remarked that 'History is a foreign land and that people did things differently there!'. The fact that others will inevitably disagree is no reason not to look and theorize!

I should tell you that my Father's family was from Philidelphia Mississippi, one of the largest communities of Choctaw indians, and that a distant cousin of mine was Jimmie Rodgers, who is credited with being the "Father of country music." The only reason I mention that is that I am familiar with claims of Indian's creating the blues. Interesting theory.


Well Marc in that case I'm very lucky and honoured to make your acquaintance! I am also aware that I am by no means the first to posit the connection between the NAs and the origin of the blues!


The fact is that the Blues, like all music has many fathers and often completely independent of each other. From the Blues of St. Louis that came from Riverboats, the blues of New Orleans with it's jazz traditions, the blues of Memphis, Mississippi,etc. you are probably going to find that there is no true way to prove anything and you will find many conflicting points of view. You will also probably find many of them will make the same claims as you are making for their own versions.
When you get into trying to re-write history or challenge people's opinions of their roots, you will probably find a lot of push back.

I agree the thesis is controversial! When you say 'attempting to re-write history!' my only defence is that the writing of history has been an interpretative pursuit as back back as the bible. In many ways the 21st Century will be known as the age of Historical Revisionism as earlier interpretations of historical events are proved to be coloured by the culture and establishment of their day.

"But I do wish you luck in your journey. Always interesting to get other perspectives."

Thank you so much Marc for your detailed response - it is greatly appreciated. Of course I might be misguided or simply wrong ... but that's no reason not to look into the history of the most important music genre of the 20th Century!

Many thanks

ColmT

Colin,

Actually you could send it the other way around. NA introduced the world to tobacco, which has killed more people than just about anything. So you might draw a correlation that NA killed more people that Europeans.

This is all pretty mindless. People debate this constantly and aside from an interesting side show I don't think it goes very far.

On the initial subject of Colm's, there are a lot of people that lay claims to everything. On the subject of the blues, while I am sure that Native American's did have some influences, they really didn't succeed in bringing it into the mainstream. In most of my interests are what elements come together to bring things to the mainstreams.

History is full of cultures, inventions, music, etc. that were nearly there yet died out before they resulted in much. My particular postition to Colm's study would be that. That while there is plenty of influences, the actual influence of the blues would be more African American than anything else. I don't see a lot of debate on that.

MAB

Hi Stan

Will do - so watch this space!

ColmT

Hi Bill

Good point Buddy - I'll try to find some good examples of both NA dances and earlier blues lyrics to illustrate my point. Many thanks for your contribution.

Regards

ColmT

Hi MAB

In many ways I agree with everything you say. I would be that last person to deny that the vast majority of early blues players and musicians were part of African American community! Probably like you MAB these are the people whose recordings I learned the blues from. My intention isn't to diminish any culture groups contribution to the origin of the blues - rather to acknowledge and celebrate every ones!

As an aside MAB I should tell you that the Irish have a special respect for the Choctaw nation, who in 1845 were the first nation in the world to send financial aid to the Irish People during the Great Famine, which killed an estimated 4 million people on the mainland of our country! $750 a fortune in 1845 which the Choctaw couldn't have easily afforded.

Regards

ColmT

Hey Marc -His name is Colm-not Colin

put your coke bottle glasses back on


Tom

Hi Stephen

You absolutely correct about this, foreign disease was the ultimate killer. While the Removal Acts - divested NA's of traditional homelands they were by the stage of the 'Trail of Tears' a shadow of their former numbers. That said I wouldn't relish walking from Mississippi to Oklahoma - would you?

Best Regards

ColmT

Hi Duke

Thanks for this.

Regards

ColmT

To be certain this is the first I have ever heard of Native American's inventing the Blues. Maybe or Probably there are parallels in music styles developing independent of each other.

If you find information affirming Native American's developing a style of music you could include it in your research.

The History Books say there were about 500,000 Indians here when the Pilgrams came. As with all things the facts may vary and the history sometimes sketchy.

Colm, Sorry Tom, I missed a key on my typewriter. I do it sometimes.

My family is also Scotch/Irish and arrived in the US around the late 1700's to settle Alabama and Mississippi.

Ray, there are a lot of theories where music of any sort came from. Everyone is always making claims of this or that and there is probably a bit of validity to all of them. And probably as much overstatement from each of them as well.

This is an interesting subject and I wish Colm,Colin, or whoever is studying it a lot of luck. Will probably find as many sides of the coin as there are people telling the stories.

MAB

Hi Ray E.

Thanks for this! There are a number of levels or aspects to my research Ray.

There are those that say such research is meaningless as all mucical genres are an eclectic mix of amalgamated influences, yet in the 1930's and 1940's the Library of Congress commissioned detailed and expensive research into the roots of the blues - in the form of the Lomax Project. This project while invaluable to blues and African American music, failed to achieve it's objective.

My claim is that John and Alan Lomax appear to have failed to look into the possibility which I suggest and failed to do so precisely because of a political agenda, determined by the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Library of Congress in Washington (who remember funded the Lomax Research).

The 'Blues' is one of the great American cultural success stories. It's history was incorrectly re-invented in the late 1960's and 1970's by revivalists in both America and Europe, who attempted to characterize the blues as a form of 'American Traditional Music!' when in fact the blues as we known it was originally 'pop' music and the blues men who played it were, in their day, regarded as local pop stars!

My thesis, isn't that the blues didn't have many influences, rather that one of the significant influences of the blues arose out of Mississippi NA music and that for a variety of reasons their contribution was effectively written out of history for largely political reasons!

As MAB has already observed it's a very difficult thesis to prove and he is absolutely correct. But it's an easier thing to prove than the fact the Robert Johnson ever met the Devil at the crossroads and no-one seems to had a problem with that one!

MAny thanks from your comments Ray.

Regards from Ireland

ColmT

Hi Again MAB

Scottish/Irish? No wonder you're giving me so much trouble. LOL Buddy. Your very lucky to know so much about your roots! It must be a great source of pride for you! Do you have knowledge of were your family originally came from?

Just to clarify MAB, this isn't another conspiracy theory - it's research. Therefore if I discover enough evidence simply doesn't exist to confirm my suggestion then the answer is simple - I'm either wrong or I can't prove my thesis - which I accept you believe will be the outcome and you may very well be correct!

Again not a reason - not to try?

Thanks again Buddy

ColmT

Hi Guys

While I'm at it I might as well go the whole hog and challenge yet two other taboos. The name of the blues and the legend of the blues!

I have written a fictional novel called 'The Remarkable Legend of Henry Sloan!' soon to be published! In it I posit two other controversial views regarding the secret history of the blues.

Firstly, the name 'The Blues' has been accredited to Washington Irving the first great American author of such stories as 'Sleepy Hollow!' and 'Rip Van Winkle!'. Legend has it he coined the word to describe a state of depression, which then became associated with the impoverished conditions of share-croppers in te southern states. That's the story. However, how a largely illiterate population of African Americans in the South could have had any knowledge of such an obscure literary reference published in 1802 in a New York magazine confounds reason.

Secondly, I'm afraid I commit the ultimate blues heresy which is the challenge the legend of the blues itself. The legend of the Devil at the crossroads - is an interpretation of a much earlier legend or story told amongst NA peoples. It is the story of the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek' - the very first Treaty negotiated between the Choctaw Nation and the Union Army and Washington.

In East Mississippi near a place called Macon, at Dancing Rabbit Creek, the elders of the Choctaw met at that place were the the four winds cross to meet with the lead of the blues (the Indians name for those that wore the Union Army Cavalry or Infantry Uniforms). There the dark figure from Washington promised the Choctaw a new and better life, in exchange for their Mississippi homelands, the land that was considered by the Choctaw to be the soul of their people. But the leader of the blues lied to the Choctaw and as a result they lost everything. This story is told to this day by the Choctaw to their children. For me it is the legend of the blues in it's original form and a legend which found a voice much later, all be it in an altered form by blues musicians!

Regards

ColmT

Hi Colm

I'm no authority on your specific topic, but I do know a bit about things like change and innovation.

Nothing (well very very little) springs up fully formed. It is all incremental as people build on what came before. It seems to me that all the musical forces in "that geography" would have been intermingling, much like what happens in technology in Silicon Valley.

Change happens because people mix and mingle according to their interest, and share their ideas, accomplishments, stories etc.

So from that observed generality, I think you can start making your case. The reality is, if they were "there", and part of the music scene, they influenced the direction of the music that sprang from "there".

Ask yourself. Why are there so many musicians in Nashville and what happens when they get together? Who influenced "X" (insert uyour favourite artist here)

It really is that simple.

So IMO as long as you can identify individuals who played with other musicians in the South before the Blues were popularized, you're 80 percenty there.

But I would disagree with your thesis that it sprang from Native music. It sprang from the cultural mosaic of the South at that time and the conditions the people and musicians faced back then.

Hi John

History makes itself! I agree with you! But the things that happened, happened! But I'm not contending that the blues were invented or developed by any one particular ethnic group. In fact John the 'Blues' like the 'Celts' is probably a myth. I've played acoustic blues for 40 years and the differences between many artist's style and structures of playing are far more different than they are similar! So root blues may describe a geographical area more than a genre.

My thesis is far more specific John, which is that the beat, lyrical structure and format of the delta blues, as performed by Charley Patton and his friends was directly influence in a demonstrable way by NA traditional dances - Patton was a Choctaw Indian and would have been influenced by his traditional culture!
That's what I'm researching. It doesn't diminish any other persons contribution to the development of the blues!

Regards

ColmT

Big Congrats on your upcoming book publication Colm.........

anyone can start writing a book-and many have.

fewer can finish the book

and only a chosen few will ever see publication..

good for you fella!

Tom

Colm,

My family's sur name is Berryhill, which were from Scotland. Another side were McClusky's,from Scotland. The Irish aspect is also in there after they got in America. The Barnette's were from England, so we have spent our entire existance fighting among ourselves.

Like the two guys in the pub.

"Me mother was named Maureen."
"Ya don't say, Me Mother's name was Maureen."

"Aye, we're from county cork!
"Get away ya, we're from county cork."

"Me Da's name was Gerald...."
"Ah yer a liar! Me Da's name was Gerald..."

Guy at the bar asks the bartender..
"What's all that about?"

He says "That's the Clancy Twins... They're just drunk again!"

We're all mixed in there somehow. The family geneology was done many years ago. Let's just say we go back quite a way's in this country. Good to have you on the discussion. sounds like you are into a lot of interesting stuff. Probably will end up discovering ol' Blind Vomit Redfeather" before it's over.

MAB

Cheers Tom

You're on the mailing list - Buddy! For sure!

Better forward me a PO Box or Address for a hard copy!

Missy is arranged acoustically and I like it - raw and lively! I have a rhythm crew coming in, in the next week or two so I'll do a full blues version in the studio and I'll shoot them off to you asap!

Cheers Buddy

ColmT

P.S. Got your email! Brilliant one! I'll save a copy for future!

will be my honor to get a copy from the author himself

pm'ed you my address ........thanks!

p.s. I myself am a truly conflicted ancestral mix

that being German-Irish..(Yeager-Sheppard)

half of me wants to rule the world-but the other half is too drunk to care!


Tom

Colm--

History is selected documentation of all known facts that are recorded (though later readers had no hand in selection of the input)--Somebody else selected or left out maybe whole reems of ideas, that should have been included.

Review of the literature is much easier with linked libraries and the internet--When I was in college doing graduate work--our review of documentation--was limited to what we could lay our hands on as data--NOW THE WHOLE WORLD--is there in the mix of almost instant RECALL.

WE were TAUGHT:

•STUDY and come up with a TOPIC to investigate
•STATE THE PROBLEM ( HYPOTHESIS)
•REVIEW THE LITERATURE (now the whole WORLD)
•STATE THE IDEAS SUPPORTED BY PROOF
•STATE WHAT IS NOT PROVEN
•CROSS REFERENCE AND FOOT NOTE WITH ALL REFERENCES
•SUMMARIZE AND COLATE, EXTRAPOLATING THE OVERLAP WITHOUT SUPPORT.
•WRITE OUT THE PROOF WITH DOCUMENTATION
•PUBLISH THE FINDINGS YES OR NO

Thats how we had to do it in the OLD DAYS--

MAB you are JUMPING THE GUN, before all the facts are in--Everyone is entitled to an opinion, until the PROOF OF THE PUDDING is in--THE TASTING.

I AM 1/8 CHEROKEE AND SCOTCH IRISH--HELL OF A COMBINATION--INDIANS COULD HAVE DONE A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE NOT PART OF HISTORY--AS WELL AS COULD HAVE SCOTS, IRISH, GERMANS...............ETC.

RESEARCH IS THE KEY--THEN THE DETERMINATION--TRUE OR FALSE--BUT THERE IS ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY--NOT ENOUGH DATA---------------?

INTUITION SOUNDS GOOD SOMETIMES, BUT IS NOT PROOF--OTHER TIMES
THERE IS CURRENTLY NOT ENOUGH SUPPORT FOR THE HYPOTHESIS, THEN NO DETERMINATION CAN BE MADE--SOMETIMES THE RESEARCH IS FAULTY--

COMPLICATED IS THE CRUX--GOOD LUCK IN THE INVESTIGATION COLM

I LOVE THE BLUES TOO--

Mackie

Hi Colm, I don't know where to start, or even get into this conversation for fear of digging a hole that I can't get out of.

I'm glad that you mentioned the Lomax's. I first learned of them from "The Life And Legend Of Leadbelly". Huddy Leadbetter actually traveled with them after he was released from prison. Someone had to lift that 200 pound tape recorder from the trunk of their car. May as well be Leadbelly.

Mississippi John Hurt was a sharecropper from Avalon Miss. He was more of a folk singer than a bluesman and had a unique guitar style. Made some recordings in the 30's (I think) for OKEY Records, but was soon forgotten until the revival of folk and blues in the late 50's and early 60's. No one would know about John Hurt if not for some college kids who looked for him and found him on his farm around '59. The story goes that when they drove to his house, he thought that they were KKK. They had to talk him out of the house. He later played at the Newport Folk Festival and made enough money that he didn't have to farm anymore. Of course he was also at an advanced age by then.

As with Leadbelly, John Hurt wasn't a blues guy by definition. He played story songs that were changed lyrically over the years. The content of the lyrics may suggest a bluesy subject, but those guy's weren't like Robert Johnson. Robert Johnson never shared his lyrics nor wrote them down. He didn't want others stealing his songs. He changed them constantly to avoid plagiarism. Lot's of folks were illiterate in those days and couldn't write his lyrics down. Remember that he only toured in Miss., Ark, and maybe Tx., not including his trips to Chicago, Memphis, and Houston.

I just can't make a connection to blues and Native Americans. I was assigned as a judge to Native American music in the last JPF awards and nothing hinted toward Delta Blues. "Redbone" is a rock and roll band, the only Indian band that I know of. I lived in Oklahoma for 5 years, got to know lots of native Americans, been invited to Pow Wows. I just can't see the connection from where I sit.

You have provided some great info here, and I think that you should go ahead and leave a link for your book. I don't think the moderators would mind since you gave back in a non-spammy way. Best of luck, Ben

It seems to me that the Blues came out of the Negro Spirituals mostly assoiated with the slaves and from there became the blues.

Not sure if there were any native americans involved but I suppose it could be possible.

Perhaps you can point us to some actual information that is posted somewhere.

My family, on my father's side were Quakers migrating from France in 1066 supposedly with William the Conquerer to England and then to America sometime before 1756. The Quakers were involved with the underground railroad.
At least 3 of my ancesters were members of the House of Commons. One was pretty lively. Look up the Long Parliment.

Keep researching. There is no telling what you will find.

Hi Colm:

Your interesting theory has certainly given us something to ponder. Unfortunately there is no known paper trail to neatly tie your theory into one neat package. It is a little like the story of the Welsh being the first Europeans to arrive in and explore North America. Stories still exist of later explorers who came across an Indian tribe in what later became Mississippi Territory (Present day Alabama and Mississippi) who spoke fluent Welsh. Perhaps the ancestors of Tom Jones taught those Native Americans to sing the "Blues." (LOL!) As an aside, they even say that Columbus' navigator was a Welsh-Irishman named Rice of Galway. (Rhys de Galway) He supposedly learned to navigate to the Americas from a Welsh Prince who had explored here earlier.

The truth in this case will probably never be known but I appreciate your taking the time and effort to explore the possibility. The Native Americans (on a broad front) in both, North and South America were dealt very unfair hands by their European neighbors. But they, too had been dealing misery to each other long before the arrival of the Europeans.

As you explore this theory, I hope you won't ignore the Cherokees as possible candidates. The only tribe with a recorded alphabet and they spent massive amounts of time trying to assimilate themselves into the "white world" before Andrew Jackson ignored all previous treaties and sent them west by force on the "Trail of Tears." They had every reason to sing the blues.

Please keep us posted as time permits. It is an interesting theory and I'd love to hear more as you make progress, hit blind alleys and discover new facets of musical and actual history.

Best of luck.

Dave Rice

Hi Colm,
Good luck in your research. I used to wonder about the roots of all culture and have come to the opinion that it
cannot be traced any further back than the origins of the first living thing because everything evolves from that. When I am asked what is my genre I always have a problem with the answer. I choose "country" because when you tick the boxes you only get:
Rock, pop, bee bop, folk or country. You may have a valid point though in establishing a link there.
Vic

below is a link to a story in The American Indian News Service which discusses Native American influences on the blues........other than the mention of Indian Pow Wow Drums-which were played 4 beats to the measure-what I really found interesting was that Indians were enslved as well as blacks and that the co-mingling of blacks and Indians in many cases makes a strong case not that either one invented the blues so much as the blues was hybrid of both.......this article says even white Europeans-including the Irish settlers-were subject to enslavement......thats really news to me as before I only thought blacks were enslaved......interesting article........

http://www.americanindiannews.org/2009/09/music-exploring-native-american-influence-on-the-blues/


Tom

Basically blues must be an expression that originates in a particular vocabulary of human emotion. Then you may research who became known for this way to express this, what posthumously is named "blues", and when the first records of that type of expression can be dated back to, and that's certainly interesting enough.

As I see your project, it's a research in mythology more than anything else. I doubt there excists certain dna proof of the original emotions that may have lead to form "the blues" as a form of artistic expression. But of course you can aim to tell as accurate a story as you can document, within the scope of your specific interest.

Recently I heard about a natural scientist in Denmark who is currently gathering hard proof that the indians was not the indigenous people in America. A highly controversial research that has the potential to rip the indians of some of the priveledges they have gotten on the account of being indigenous (I wonder who's funding it..). Sounds sad to me, but truths ain't what they used to be.

I can buy into that Colm because it is consistent with what I think happens. Patton cannot help but have been influenced by his ancestry and geography.

And slavery was how\where I understood the blues were formed..the chants of slaves as they moved through the fields..must have also influenced him as it was also part of the milieu.

Also, FYI, I was not so much disagreeing with you as laying a practical foundation for your argument...from there you can get as specific as your research takes you.

So all the best with it.

I guess my final word on this might be one of caution. To attempt to pass forward the concept that African Americans were not the originator of the blues in today's political climate, is probably going to be met with the same general attitude of how Mulsums percieve incorrect portrayals of Mohammad or Allah. I would proceed with great caution.

MAB

Hi Dave

Thanks for your insightful comments.

My research is quite serious and therefore seeks to uncover previously uncollated documentary evidence from a wide range of sources.

Of course being Irish we were always told the Saint Brendan of Ireland discovered the Americas:here's a quick weblink on that.

I also take your point regarding the Welsh. I actually once visited a town deep in the frozen deserts of Patagonia, Argentina were everyone speaks Welsh to this day.

Also, the Cherokee were as you likely say connected strongly with the blues, the Choctaw and Chickasaw also being smaller groups amongst the original Nations of the Cherokee.

The Cherokee were one of the five 'so-called' civilized tribes in the south who embraced acculturation until Washington broke the terms of their agreements and treaties! (the other four tribes were the Creek, the Choctaw, the Chickasaw and the Seminole.)

My basic belief is that the documented history of the blues - is even in the present day, unfinished business, I have no political or cultural agenda of any description just a trust for historical proof and clarification.

Many thanks Dave

I post when I can

ColmT

Hi Mackie

This is very helpfully my friend and you obviously know quite a bit about the research process! As many other posters have mentioned, there are many that expound such theories about NA's at the very origin of the blues.

My only wish is yo clinically look at the sources of such theories and assess what evidence exists for such claims!

In order to do this I'm limiting my research questions to five specific areas of research:

(1.) Evidential proof of a direct musical connection between 6/8 time harmony shuffle rhythm and NA traditonal dance.

(2.) Evidential proof of a direct lyrical connection between the 'call and response' pattern found in early blues and NA traditional dance.

(3.) Linked to the rhythm and 'call and response' pattern in 1 and 2 an investigation into the twelve bar structure of the blues.

(4.) An investigation into the origin of Hokum Blues.

(5.) An investigation into the lives of earlier NA bluesmen.

While much unsubstantiated mythology and innuendo exists around this topic, I have yet to find any comprehensive (or peer reviewed) research on this topic.

Thanks for this Mackie, very helpful buddy.

ColmT

Hi MAB

I greatly appreciate your comments MAB. In answer I can only restate my comments to Dave above. I have no political or cultural agenda here, You're aware of such claims as you have said. My only intention is to - discover what if any historical evidence exists one way or another for the NA connection.

If I find none I'll state it - if I find some I'll publish it!

The blues belongs to everybody - as does the truth about it's origins!

Regards MAB

Thanks so much for your input here!

ColmT

Colm, If the Black Muslims declare jihad on you, I've got your back! How many of the rest of you are with us?

Hi to the The Songcabinet

I agree the blues represent a unique structure for the expression of a certain kind of human experience/

I agree that there is much too much mythology, however my intention is to de-mythologise the history of the blues rather than the other way around.

Indigenous or not the NAs inhabited the Mississippi flood plain prior to either African Americans in 'indentured servitude' or European Pilgrims! 80% of all African slaves in the Americas were taken to Brazil by the Portuguese. While some were transported to Florida and then into the southern states, many were transporting north through Central America into the plantations of the south.

This is another interesting fact of course, as Latin American music clearly had a huge influence in the music which emerged fromNew Orleans! As did the Irish and Europeans in the development of 'country blues'.

Ny research concerns origins of the 'Mississippi Delta Blues' nothing more! The rest came later! The improvised playing of the blues based around the highly structured of 12 bar format- ultimately gave rise to the extended and freer idea of improvisation around any music structure - which lies at the heart of earlier jazz and ragtime.

Regardless of Native American's claim of 'indigenous ethnicity' that fact remains they were there in the middle and eastern areas of Mississippi at the time the blues emerged and many of the earlier blues artists were half blood or full blood NA.

Thanks so much for your interest!

regards

ColmT

Careful what you sign up for Dan - I may be needing your services sooner than you think! LOL!

Thanks buddy

ColmT

Hi Ben

Thanks so much for your interest! I did know about Leadbelly and the Lomax. They met and recorded him first him in the famous Parchman Farm (MS Prison).

The Students you refer to, one of which is John Fahey a PHD student not only revived the blues but spun his own interpretation - creating the 'noble savage' image of bluesmen ,,, as though they were corn pipe yokel traditional guitar-pickers - locally undiscovered folk hero's of America! Which they were not.

Mostly they were well discovered pop stars of their day! The real history of the blues and the commercialism around it didn't suit Fahey's 'hippy' views of the way he wished to present it! So he created the blues men as trad artists - salt of the earth types! While unknown to the 'white population' in the east and north and largely forgotten for 20 or 30 years, they were very well to their own communities. Famous popular singers!

John Fahey over romanticized the Delta Blues to match contemporary views he had regarding the emerging French Philosophy of his days in University!

Anyway, two other things.

First - next time you go to a Pow Wow - bring an acoustic! Listen to the rhythm not the vocal of round drum dances. It's Harmony Shuffle! Just try it! Trust me!

Second - Tommy Johnson the guy who was the first to tell the Legend of the Blues!' came from Terry, just south of Jacksonville MS. A couple of years ago I spoke online with an African American young woman called Tracie Kelly. I was excited because she came from the town that one of the greatest earlier blues players had originated. Guess what! She didn't know of Tommy Johnson - sadder still she had never heard of the 'Blues' nor did she know that her surname 'Kelly' (O'Caillaigh in Gaelic) was originally an Irish name (presumably that of the European Plantation owner for whom her ancestor's had worked for in 'indentured slavery'.

My point is this Ben, just because Native Americans don't know or care about their contribution to the origin of the blues, doesn't mean that my theory is wrong and more than little Tracy's ignorance of the blues diminishes the contributions made by Tommy Johnson many years ago in her home town!

Many thanks

ColmT

This has been a great read, and well thought out. Thanks Colm!

For a more light-hearted thread, the history of the blues was previously discussed here on another forum. Enjoy!:

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/731534/page/1#Post731534

Hi Tom Tracy

Thanks for this. While we're on the blues I'm about to start another thread concerning the roots of lead blues guitar and blues harp playing.

Check it out = hopefully more great blues conversation.

Thanks so much for this.

ColmT

Jeez black folks can't have nothing.I get sick and tired of people trying to discredit our culture, trying to pass it off as someone else's as if we are not talented enough to develop our own. We had culture and music wayyyyyyyy before we came into contact with Indians or Europeans, our culture and music,came from our ancestors and our ancestoral land which is Africa.

I'm not denying Native Americans their right to their history but we have a right to ours as well. So please stop trying to take our culture and water it down. Seems like so many want to make sure we are a people without history or culture. Rock n Roll, blues, hip hop, jazz,gospel are the creation of African descendants.jeez enuff already.

Didn't mean to rant, but i HAD to say something.

I can assure you we aren't extremists nor are we talking about something as trivial as portraying our God in a cartoon such as Southpark.Those are 2 different things, 2 different cultures,
2 different people. We aren't planning on bombing someone or blowing up planes because of disagreements. What we as black americans are concerned with however is why so many feel entitled to continue to strip us of our culture and heritage. As if being stripped of culture,language,land,traditions wasn't enough.So yes it irritates me highly that many seem to want to take whatever is left. Are we wrong for that?

Well, well the more i search this forum the more i realize what this board is about. Black muslims declaring jihad, really?