JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Why don't Lyricists learn an Instrument?

Hi All

I'm considering posting this on the Lyrics forum - but wanted to check just how many good on-line friends I'm about to loose! Lol!

I've been an artist and musician all my life! Good songs are about an interplay between words and music. Nothing more! Universal themes, accessible themes, good storytelling, pre - chorus,hooks etc etc., are observations after the fact. Jargon! Little more! There is no science to writing songs! If there was, scientists would have created a machine to replace it years ago! Song-writing is art not a science or a philosophy or a state of positive life experience! Poetical narratives in the form of lyrics may be therapy (and very good therapy) but not song writing!

My advice to pure lyrics is to learn three major and two minor chords of the same key on any instrument, guitar or keys or whatever.

Lyrics aren't poetry! Poetic lyrics have a structured meteor - song lyrics don't or at least don't necessarily. Song lyrics match the meter of the music NOT the meter of the lyrics!

ONLY classical musical ever attempted to match both and most modern efforts have proved staid and stencil.

So lyricists learn to play! God knows you'll never find a group of people more anxious to teach and help you - than here!

So - what do you guys think? Post on Lyrics Forum or leave it?

All advice welcome!

ColmT

Most lyric writers do not feel the need to learn an instrument....at least that was the general concensus when this subject was brought up on a previous thread... I as usual got into hot water for saying that all songwriters should learn all aspects of songwriting including playing music theory and recording etc..makes sense to me but hey some people feel different.

You're opening a big can of worms, but it's your call!

Pretty simple answer, because they are lyricist not musicians.

While all things music do and can relate they don't always do.

Why isn't the producer in the studio everyday sitting at the board a recording engineer?

As Big Jim said, it's been brought up at least several times before.

I think of myself more of a musician than a lyricist or a song writer, because I've played music for more years than I have spent making up my own songs. So it's easy for someone like me to ask "why don't you learn how to play an instrument"? It ain't that easy!

A study of basic music theory might help. Mike Dunbar host's a music theory forum here. Read the posts. Learn the keys. Ask questions if you don't understand.

A musical instrument can cost a lot of money. Before the Internet came around, you had to buy an instrument first. Then make phone calls looking for teachers, buy books, etc. Now you can learn basic music theory first, then decide what you want to do. That doesn't make learning an instrument much easier. It takes commitment, time, and disipline.

Colm, People have different talents. There are people who have a talent for lyric writing. Not all of them have a talent for writing melodies or playing a musical instrument.

To be blessed with a talent to play a variety of musical instruments AND to be able to write good lyrics and melodies is to be truly talented. And rare.

In my own case, I have almost no musical talent whatsoever. But I was able to learn how to play a few chords on the guitar and pound out a few chords on a keyboard. Without those rudimentary skills, I don't think I would have been able to write songs.

So your advice is generally sound. But it doesn't apply in all cases. Some people have even less musical skills than I do and to tell them to learn to play an instrument is akin to ordering a pig to fly.

That doesn't mean they can't be a good lyricist. We must all work within our different limitations.

Some people have a special gift with words but no musical gift, some people are very good at music theory and mastering instruments but can't come up with lyrics to save their lives...hence, the need for COLLABS!

Hi again, Colm:

Some lyricists do "gravitate" into playing an instrument... or at least do the best they can... as is the case with me. I began writing lyrics at the request of a friend who would provide the melody and vocals. When he returned to his "day job" full time, that left me high and dry. My options were: 1. Continue to write lyrics and go "begging" to find someone willing to put up with my words and ill-formed lines; 2. Learn to play something in order to understand that musical structure usually requires the words to "land in all the right places"... LOL!

It has been a difficult ride for me... and, if that were not enough... I had to begin singing in order to demonstrate approximately how my creations should sound. Time and hard work cures many things... and I have improved a little. I still don't consider myself a singer and never perform in public. But I can write 'til my heart is content now. Lyrics, Melody and vocal in one package... without those sometimes heated discussions with co-writers!

Guitar would have been my first choice but I do not have the hands and well-formed fingers for that exquisite instrument. An arranger keyboard was a wise choice for me.

Dave

I agree. I wrote lyrics for more years than I care to tell you, and couldn't figure out why it was so hard to find someone to collaborate with who would provide the music to go along with my lyrics. After 15+ years of telling myself I could never learn to play guitar, I bought one and started to teach myself to play. 8 years later, I still play pretty poorly, but I play, and it has helped my writing considerably.

Hey all,

This is surely a valid topic to bring up every now and again. Let me add my two cents worth.

I'm one of those Lyrics Only type gals. BUT, I can actually read music, play the piano and guitar, and even sing a bit. So I've got that part down. What I have absolutely no idea how to do though is come up with a melody. Honest and true...I haven't the vaguest. It's as if I have all the ingredients to make a really snazzy concoction, but I don't have the recipe.

Of course it would be an ideal situation if I did...and perhaps there are studies of music theory which might help. But for the time being, I'm content to work on what I consider my strength, the words, enjoy my collaborations with the fine musicians who bear with me here at JPF, and light another candle at my Bernie Taupin shrine .

Then again, never say never....so stay tuned.

Cheers,
Beth

Well I am learning to play guitar and I'm having a blast with it. I'm learning my first song, "As Tears Go By" by the Rolling Stones. I'll never be able to sing, but maybe I'll learn to play the songs I enjoy writing and maybe it will help my writing!

Dottie

Why do so many folks think in absolutes. One reason for things, one rule for things, one approach for things?

Bernie Taupin shows us it is not necessary in order to be wildly successful. Paul Simon shows us the singer songwriter can be a sublime creature.

The world is far more complex and exists between extremes..and that "in between" is a continuem, a spectrum, with lots of room for combinations.

So my take is no, it is not necessary.

But hey, throw it out there if you want to. I for one would like to hear what others say.

I agree John.

I feel that learning an instrument would of course help lyricists to write better lyrics, understand phrasing better, just as a songwriting class would, a thesarus, etc..they are all tools.

Some people feel more comfortable working on the transmissions of cars, some on the body work, different specialties, though all working on a car.

If we felt this way, that we must know everything thing about music if we are to do anything in music, then we might as well, think, as I think Jim suggested, music producers should also know how to sing, set up stages, work the boards, write song/lyrics and play all instruments.
Colm, Though learning as much as we can is a bonus, for sure, I don't think someone should be classified as ONLY a lyricist and it be made out to be an inferior thing, as sometimes I have heard it be implied by people who are musicians/singers/lyricists..though usually, they, in my opinion are rarely genius' at all three things..

I have not learned the guitar/piano mostly due to medical problems that are out of my control. And perhaps it is also due to fear of failing yet another goal in my life...so why start and be disapointed in myself more than I am already?



I am not joking, but I am ...make sense? Ok..stepping off the soapbox now...if I can do it without breaking my leg.

Kimberly

here we go again....
as has been said...we've discussed this before...
I would have to strongly disagree with you

I will accept the "not necessarily" because nothing is absolute... and exceptions or variations are always welcomed..
but to say most (if I'm reading you right) lyrics don't have a structured meter.... well those aren't the lyrics I ever choose to set to music.

After several years of writing complete songs by myself (25-30 years, I think... ) I have done several co-writes with lyricists here. And some of the best lyrics I chose had very strong meters.. some often almost wrote the music just by the lilt of the phrases. (and I know for a fact that the lyricist of some of those did NOT play an instrument)
If there isn't much structure in the lyric, then you run into the second verse dilemmas.... where the music that you have for the first verse does not mesh with the second... (and my personal biggest pet peeve where you end up singing a word with the accent on the wrong syllable because of the melody UGH!)
yes, playing an instrument and knowing some theory would not hurt a lyricist... as also..it would not hurt a composer to study some poetry, or prose....
but... we all have our strengths...
I know that by putting music to some of the lyrics I found from writers here, my music went in directions it probably would have not gone by my own guidance.

People should do whatever they are creatively driven to do. It's no more complicated than that. I've met and become friends with people who can play amazinfly well, write excellent lyrics, sing beautifully, perform in an audience pleasing way and they are just as anonymous to you on this board as you are to them. Point being it doesn't mean anything if you view all of this as a pathway towards some magical stardom or riches. If and when that BS enters your mind first before you just express yourself in whatever way you're driven to do, you have little to no chance of being happy OR successful. At least if you feed your muse and create in whatever way you can and want, then you'll have artistic happiness and if you're not a butthead, you'll likely learn how to do whatever it is you do better the more you do it and the more you pay attention to what your peers do.

A note to those Bernie fans: remember that he partnered with someone who couldn't write lyrics. If you want to make a finished song, make some friends with folks who play music and find one or more you hit it off with and vice versa. You don't have to do it all unless you want to. 99.99% of us will never have career sustaining commercial success and only about 5% of those who stick with it relentlessly will have any measurable success of any kind. So don't beat yourself up or worry about the business trends or rules.. first.. do what makes you happy and tell anyone who says you shouldn't to stick it. That doesn't mean you should come here or on other boards or groups and play stuff in a critique session and ignore advice.. if you go seeking help, you owe it to those who try to help to take their advice with an open and honest mind and if you get consistent negative feedback and are unwilling to change, then stop asking for it because you are unfairly wasting time that could be spent on others who want and need it.

Stop thinking and start DOING... and have fun... if it isn't fun, please STOP and find something to spend your time doing that brings you happiness. Don't worry if it makes others happy until AFTER it makes YOU happy. Their happiness is their problem. = )

Brian

Ah now were getting some place. That was a brave thing to say Kim and I think many people feel like that.
I understand you completely and I'm always tapping into those obstacles and ways of thinking in nearly every post I make about music. That always creeps in.. insecurity. But even more about "being truly happy with yourself and how VERY difficult that can be.
The higher you set your goals and the harder they are to reach the more disappointed you can be in your life. Some say well "that's life" deal with it and others make excuses or settle for what is.

No matter what the only real true failure is never trying.

If you want to learn to play or even think you might want to. Try! Don't deny yourself anything that YOUR in control of.
If it doesn't work out, so what? Nobody will use that against you only you'll do that. So there's were it doesn't make sense.

Bottom line on this subject to me is, if it's in your heart & soul to play music then you will. You either do or you don't. Same goes for lyrics poetry, painting whatever.
Can it be beneficial to a lyricist to play and make music?
Sure it could, could for most anybody who wants it or needs it in there life for whatever reason. No matter what else they do.

There's a larger failure than not trying.. it's spending lots of your life TRYING to do or be something you don't want. I know people who have wasted large parts of their lives pursuing all sorts of things (or not pursuing) because of peer pressure, family pressure, societal pressure or some expert making them feel like a failure if they don't do what they tell them. The reason why it's a larger failure than not trying is because it means not only are you not trying (or spending enough time trying) what you REALLY want to do, you waste a portion, large or small, of our limited lifespans doing something only because someone else wants you to. And often that sucks all the passion out of your soul and many never get it back before it is too late.

We all know the story since most of us have suffered from it. Many of us were told not to pursue music, but rather get a "real" job. It's true making a living wage in music can be brutally hard work even for the very talented. But when folks are forced to not go that direction because they need to "try" to work at a bank, or selling shoes, or joining the right group, or marrying the right person (rather than a person you really love) or even desperately trying to write music when you really just enjoy writing lyrics, it's a waste of your life you can never get back. It's akin to murder in a way where someone elses rules or agenda or pressure forces you to loose years doing what would actually make you happy. And even for the least talented among us, you can find paying work on the fringes of whatever you dream of doing to pay the bills and remain close to what you love.

Lately I've seen some folks with totally good and honest intentions try and force their opinion and will on others to do or not do something they enjoyed doing because they weren't good enough at it. STOP THAT CRAP! I know you think you're trying to help, but be careful because encouragement in something someone WANTS to do is VERY different than encouraging people to do something they have no interest in or worse, encouraging them NOT to do something they love.

They say that if someone can scare you off of making music, you may not have had the passion to stick with it in the first place. But even that old cliche isn't always true. Sometimes people feel as hopeless and forced to give up what they love as others feel trapped in a abusive job or an abusive marriage.

Perhaps it's the year I've just had and the near death experiences and the fact that I've been thinking back about all the times in my own life even a minimal amount of positive encouragement might have made things so much easier and perhaps I would have started JPF back in College when I first launched an org. (which I called Just Plain Folks as well) to help actors, writers, and other theatrical students break the back of the elitist theater clique and even more elitist college professors that kept all but a handful of kids out of every show. I had one English professor who came to my aid when they tried to shut all of us out and it encouraged me enough to make a big media event out of the David versus Goliath battle we had to put on our own show outside of the system and I wonder if I would have buckled without her small but critical support. And at the same time it helped me overcome all the people who told me NOT to buck the system and try to do my show outside of the box because I wasn't experienced in doing such things and should leave all that to the insiders who did all the shows, because they knew best and who was I to think I could do it without them and differently than anyone else had ever done it. I moved ahead on my own with that little positive nod of support and our show blew the official sponsored college insider show away both in the reviews and with our sold out crowds every night (and we raised money for charities on top of it). I was told I had no business doing it, but I did it anyway and succeeded. But once out of school, I didn't have the guts to fight the pressure from those telling me to enter the safe job market (corporate retail management) rather than pursue a job where I could use even the slightest amount of creatity or any of my real skills and rather than moving forward with JPF back in 1986. Instead I went through the motions (with hollow and meaningless career success as well as predictable failures). Though I did have moments where I stopped the madness and made music full time, I always got dragged back into the corporate world until I left it for good in 1996 and relaunched JPF full time.

For a host of personal reasons I've always been someone with a passion for helping the underdogs. I've reflected a great deal on how life might have been very different if I'd had the slighest support when I was the underdog. Since I can't do anything about that (back then or even now) all I CAN do is pursue helping as many other underdogs as I can.

All of that to say when I see some bullying around here, even though it's not somebody beating up the little kid and stealing his lunch money, but rather some well intentioned people who probably have no clue they are doing it (though some clearly do) it riles me up and reminds me what I found so important about this work in the first place.

But that's just my opinion, I could be right.

Brian

I absolutely agree with this! If you don't have the drive, why would you engage in it?

And besides, writing lyrics are such a comprehensive craft (if you are ambitious about it) that it takes a LOT of your mental (and that can be physically hard too) resources, and there might not often be mental/physical surplus to do more.

Of course it can be an advantage if lyricists work on their instrumental/ production chops, but not if it takes too much away from the lyric writing, and thereby drains the fun out of being creative..

Thanks Magne. = )

Great post Brian.

Especially
You waste a portion, large or small, of our limited lifespans doing something only because someone else wants you to. And often that sucks all the passion out of your soul and many never get it back before it is too late.

We all know the story since most of us have suffered from it. Many of us were told not to pursue music, but rather get a "real" job

Getting the "real job" all but destroyed me as I was pressured into it. We can be raised into that pressure from childhood. However I could never blame those who only wanted what they thought best for me. Security, MEDICAL BENEFITS, an a pension to live on someday. I do blame me for "Trying" though.

But I'm such a nut, I burned the candle at both ends, thank God for youth Worked like an animal in the cold all day and in the studio, gigging or practicing all night. Many times straight through.. or on 2 hours sleep.

What I meant basically though was to me, quitting not "really trying" to do something I truly love is worse than failing at it.
As in " I failed the course and got a D" "I failed to get a deal" "I failed to score a goal or to score at anything" The marriage failed" etc.. etc.. People fail all the time.
I know it sounds cliche but knowing I did what "I" wanted,believed in it and tried my very best is all I can ask of myself, it's what's in my hands, and we all have to live with ourslves.

So let me "fail" one thousand more times, but I'll never feel that I'm a "Failure"

Again wonderful post....

Happy Holidays & Be Well

Colm, surely you jest, sir?

If anything, the opposite is true. I’ve seen so many stream-of-consciousness/free-verse pieces or rambling, abstract poems posted on forums as “lyrics”. They've had no discernable structure or flow at all, and needed to be rewritten entirely to function as passable lyrics having a well-thought out structure and meter and making any kind of sense.

It’s not entirely accurate to say that song lyrics match the meter of the music and not the meter of the lyrics. I know of many instances where musicians/vocalists have felt drawn to compose to a lyric because of its inherent meter. They referred to those lyrics as “vocals-ready” or “music-ready”.

I’ve often wished more musicians were good or better lyricists. Sometimes I hear a song that sounds wonderful but the lyrics let the whole thing down. It’s true each of us has a subjective opinion, but I think it’s safe to say there are certain basic elements a lyric needs to have for it generally to pass muster.

As to playing an instrument: This is down to talent and desire (which Brian also refers to). I’d love to play an instrument, especially guitar or keyboard. Have even tried a few times. It simply didn’t gel. My strength apparently is words, and I’m not going to waste time forcing myself to do something that doesn’t come naturally to me. Time is too short, and I'd rather write lyrics. I can come up with melodies, though, and thank goodness for software like Audacity. It means I can get my melody ideas across A Cappella or with a downloaded ( and paid for ) basic backing track in the genre I envisage for the song. I send files like this to my collaborators – gifted musicians but not necessarily good lyricists – and they turn the whole thing into a song.

I don’t think anyone needs to feel she/he should do this or that (as Brian also stated eloquently). Musicians often approach lyricists because they – the musicians – aren’t “good with words”. Lyricists – like myself – approach musicians because we’re not “good with music”.

We all work together as best we can. The results are often wonderful.

Donna

You can certainly write a song (tune and lyrics) in your head, without being able to play an instrument, but it does make it a little harder to get to the next stage. If a little hardship doesn't worry you, no problem.
Vic

The challenges in life are meant to teach us how to live and having nay-sayers gives you an Opportunity - to figure out what you Really have passion for and beat the odds... to do it

I was a child singer and victim of All that Brian mentions --- HOWEVER -- I view it as something that I ALlowed to happen --- I take responsibility for my choices and weaknesses --- and NOW am working hard to make up time and skills.........

ANYONE -- CAN -- BENEFIT -- FROM -- LEARNING -- TO PLAY -- MUSIC

EVERYONE ---CAN --- LEARN ---TO --SING --BETTER

There are great rewards in the Act of doing it - even IF only for yourself

and saying anything but encouragement to JUST DO IT --- is an excuse or side step....... but either way there are lessons........

and YES -- you get to choose to listen to the Bullying or Not

jm

Well - no truer words have ever been spoken!

Hi All

Frank Zappa once famously remarked that 'Talking about music is like dancing about architecture!' Perhaps that's true but it seems at odds with the spirit upon which JPF's is based on.

Here's my point. Stating that not every architect is a good dancer, is not the same as saying that every architect should learn to dance!

I strongly disagree with the contention that this post was intended in some way to bully people into doing anything other than they wish to do or feel comfortable with. That said Dottie is absolutely correct. What started as an innocent although perhaps badly worded topic title has very quickly lead on to a completely different and far more emotive discussion, about peoples musical ability and personal creative choices.

I had thought my point was a simple one: which is - if your interested in writing songs then it is a good idea to learn the basics of music, not necessary or obligatory, just a good idea. That's all!

Secondly, the reason I suggested this is simple and equally accessible to all here, lyricists, musicians and songwriters.

It is: that the lyrics of many songs (not all) when written down and read without reference to the melody of the song often appear to have inconsistent meter. The reason for this is that the meter (or rhythm and timing) of the melody at points carries the phrasing. That is to say that gaps in the meter of lyrics can (and often are) corrected by the rhythm of the melody.

I still think this is an obvious point and (and clearly unlike many of you here) a helpful one!

So let me ask the question in a different way, in a way that doesn't cause offence which I can assure all of you was never my intention. Here it is:

WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 'PURE LYRICS' AND THE WORDS OF A SONG?

Regards

ColmT

To me Lyrics -- are sonically melodic

meaning the words Sound Good to my ears

that's why rhymes are important and cliches have become cliches

love/glove world/girl -- etc.....



whereas words to a story song for instance --- if just read are comprehensive - but often Require strong instrumental parts - bass/guitar/ drum and a melody to turn them into a song.

That’s the approach I take as well, Joice Marie.

All about choice and personal responsibility. At this stage in my life I choose not to try learning to play an instrument. I prefer to remain focused on what I do reasonably well, and on – I hope – also helping others to do this reasonably well.

Actually, I’ve come a long way over the past 2.5 years. I take a more active role in the music production by creating melodies, and have lost my embarrassment about singing and posting my A Cappella vocal guides either on forums or to individual composers. I’d never have dreamed of doing that 3 years ago. I’m also making a point of singing more often, with the intention of strengthening my voice – which is also an instrument - so that it will gradually improve. I'm even considering singing lessons in the New Year.

As I see it, It’s about learning, growing, and doing what we feel comfortable with at any given time.

If I were beginning my life over – and had the choices I didn’t have as a kid, an adolescent, or a young adult – I’d certainly try to learn guitar or piano.
Maybe I’ll re-think this in 10 years time. But for the moment? Nah.

Donna

Hi again, Colm... and fellow JPF'rs:

I hope you did not take Brian's posts to be directed at you. In this case, you only posed a question. I certainly took no offense. To me, Brian stated things pretty well and I agree with his sentiment that we should not attempt to force others to follow our pathway. There are some great comments on this thread and I won't get started naming names. Some are quite touching yet brave. (They say that confession is good for the soul... LOL!)

To me, no matter the endeavor or direction, the biggest failure of all is never trying. Life is not perfect and it requires way to many compromises... but to me, music is a release from the bonds imposed upon us by society and duty. For at least a few moments, after our song is written and recorded, we can soar to the heavens and imagine success.

Great thread, Colm. Great inputs, group. Thanks.

Dave

Colm, the comments above may have led to people expressing their feelings about whether or not they choose to learn to play an instrument. And the question "Why don't Lyricists learn an instrument?" is a pointed one. It might even be interpreted to imply that lyricists purposely choose not to learn an instrument just to p*ss off musicians.

As regards your "pure lyrics"/"words of a song" question:

For me, there’s no difference now. When I first began with lyrics, I viewed them more as structured poems suitable to be put to music. For maximum impact, they needed of course to have particular structures/formats, metering, flow, literary devices, and so on: the things I normally associated with poetry when I was working exclusively in that medium (and short stories). And of course – depending on the genre – the lyrics needed to tell a coherent story. I relied entirely on the composer(s) to provide music and hoped he’d create a song that would please me as well. I suppose I viewed text then as “pure lyrics”.

Now, however, after a great deal of reading, research, practice, and in particular, collaborating, I find that I hear music/melodies when I’m writing. Or I’ll hear a particular bedtrack or instrumental and that will immediately inspire me to write something based on the emotions elicited by the music. These lyrics are perhaps the “words of a song”.

Mind you, I may have misunderstood the question. It's a strange one.

Donna

I hear this a lot. And I have to disagree. Song lyrics are a kind of poetry. A specialized kind, but still poetry, i.e. structured language.

Lyrics are not, generally, metrical poetry. They are accentual poetry. An equally valid approach to the poem and with a long tradition in the English language (Beowulf is accentual poetry). It's about the repeated accent scheme.

Anyway, having diatribed (OK, that's not a real word) a bit, on to the instrument thing. I wrote lyrics for about ten years before I picked up a guitar and learned to play (sort of). And it definitely made me a better lyricist AND a better poet. Shoot, even learning to bang on a drum would probably help one internalize the necessary rhythms.

I don't think you need to learn an instrument to write a song.
If you can hear melody in your head that's all the music you need.
Chords will follow the melody.

If you can sing in key and without being pitchy you already have an instrument. Your voice.

As for meter. If you can tap your foot and count to four you have your meter maker built in. You just need to learn how masculine and feminine rhymes work an how the syllables are stressed.
Learn "Mary Had a Little Lamb", Tap your foot, and count. That's meter in it's simplest form.

Now to write a commercial song you need one more thing. A Producer that can make the music to fit the genre you want the song performed in.

WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 'PURE LYRICS' AND THE WORDS OF A SONG?

Please don't think I'm picking on you , but this is IMO another badly worded question.

I think you are looking for some deeper meaning or magical transformation that does not exist

Much as a poem has a definition, a biography has a definition, a novel says what it is, etc, a lyric is, by definition, the words to a song, so once a "written work" is put to music, it becomes a lyric. There is no magic here.

Before that, it is simply a written work, prose, poetry, call it what you like.

What was 'Turn, Turn, Turn" before it was a lyric? A bible passage. "You are a child of the universe" was a poem later put to music, at which point it became the lyric to the song. No magic, it's a word that is simply a "meaningful label" ...so we can talk about it

Again the topic raises its head, but with some interesting and different angles.

Not so long ago I myself got involved in a back and forth on one of the posts because the other person kept saying that I should learn an instrument because not to do so would keep me lacking as a SONGWRITER. I was more or less told that I was a lazy person for not bothering to try to learn an instrument.

I saw nothing bad in the conversation (I can stand my own ground)and stuck to my guns and we are still friends here on the boards.

So here is my take.

I don’t want to learn an instrument. I have never wanted too. I have no interest in music except listening to a great song. To learn an instrument would as Brian pointed out, just waste the time I have left in my life doing something that I DON’T WANT TO.

I make music videos, which required an awful lot of learning, so should those who write music and lyrics be told that they must do the same, being as video is a major music medium now.

Of course not.

----------------------

So what can I do?

Well I think that I write mighty fine lyrics in a way, that allows music to be written for them, in a straight forward way, (by someone who writes music).

I think I am very good at choosing a composer whose talents will enable him/her to write that great melody that I want my lyrics to go with. ( I go by what they have done and most times I have listened to their work before).

I think that I am great at selecting the right singer or singers to sing my lyrics to the composer’s music to end up with a great song. IMO

Sometimes this is all done in a studio but still I think I am very good at picking the right studio for the song to be turned into a final demo. (not necessarily based on studio costs).

If all us who write only lyrics suddenly overnight became top musicians / composers / producers all those studios would have to just do their own stuff or close up shop.

And I do wonder (no offence intended) how many writer/musician/producer folk who can do it all, ever put together a REAL GREAT finished product where everything is top notch. We are talking the Holy Grail here.

When I post a finished song, I usually get comments saying, great words and great music and what a great singer.

That is what give me the biggest buzz. Not just the words that I wrote, but also the fact that I found the right people to put it all together.

When a co-write is finished the co-writers don’t each think just of the bit that they contributed. That would be awful No the say hey, look at the song WE WROTE.

It becomes the complete item and is listened to as such.

I LOVE WHAT I DO BECAUSE I CHOSE TO DO IT.

Anyway that’s me off the soap box for a while.

Enjoyed this

God Bless Roy and Helen

HIDee Brother C!

Most of my life I've been "Busy". Was too-busy playin' baseball as a kid to learn the Trumpet/got bounced from class after 4 weeks of non-practice..back in 4th grade. REST of my family was QUITE musically-inclined..Mom taught piano (which I wouldn't learn..to my later-in-life chagrin) & Sis taught flute (& I AM Capable of whstling..even trills..with the Best of 'Em)..Dad played Clarinet, while alive, Stepdad played a gorgeous Vega Banjo, & Brother Doug, Trombone. I played Hookey. DID sing in a Church Kid Choir, until my voice changed..LONG time ago.

I own 4-5 Guitars I've found in various flea markets/1's a Jimmy Buffett "tossaway" I WISH had been Autographed...2 are Electrics.
Also own several nice Synth-Keyboards/& various Recording Gear I never SEEM to have TIME-for to learn as Life STAYS Busy/I got BILLS to Pay! (I'd mastered Reel-to-Reel, THEN the Technology Changed.)

Over the years, various Good Guitarists HAVE tried teaching me the rudiments. So-far, all I REMEMBER is a "Cheap G". I also have BIG trouble remembering My Own LYRICS Onstage..so...I'm not bothered or ashamed to end up a mere "Lyricist", since most of my words sing IN My Head just-fine. (I've co-produced on 6 of my 7 CDs over the years...& DO know a trick or two about Production & Arranging.)

I've also learned that in Songwriting, 2..or More..Heads are often FAR better than One. I truly ENJOY splitting a song down the middle...& letting a GOOD Guitarist..or Keyboardist..Work Their Wonders. (Lately, some of the GOOD Ones ARE presenting me with THEIR Melodies to add Words TO...which REALLY gets my Creative Juices FLOWING.)

Which, frankly, so-far keeps me TOO-BUSY to worry a lot about Learning An Instrument. I've LISTENED Intently to Music for 60 of my 65 years..sorta Know-What-Works...in both the Words AND the Music Dep't. &..since I admittedly don't make Beautiful Music, I've focused on the Words part.

If I ever find myself Retired...yep...just MIGHT get one of those dust-gatherers offa the shelf...& Try Again~

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

I have seen some songs come to life here that never would have existed had it not been for a collab between a lyricist and a musician. Some of these songs have continued to live in my head. Lyricist Glynda Duncan and singer/musician Heather Cowles "Step to the Side" is one such song, lyricist Janet Snow's RISE (recently redone by a male singer who is fabulous) is another. Lyricist Kimberly Himes and singer/musician Naomisue's "Take My Hand", my absolute favorite, lyrics by Calvin Stewart, music by Mark Kaufman, "Catwalk Candy", to me, is a masterpiece! There are many more songs, it would take too long to mention them all, but what impressed me most about this site and the result of the collabs was the caliber of talent here, both lyricists and musicians! Some outstanding stuff that no one would have ever heard were it not for people working as a team and building on eachother's strengths. Everyone, the audience included, gets a great satisfaction from these creations. To me, they're successful already.

This is not a can of worms it is a no brainer.... I accept that people can do what they like so it is their call whether to learn or not.

It is simple common sense that if you want to be any good at writing lyrics then you have to understand the other parts of the craft. That surely entails learning about music theory and structure.....what better way of learning than to learn to play an instrument.....To ignore this advice will only hold you back and will show in your work.

I am surprised that people even try to argue with this.....

Somebody mentioned Bernie Taupin as a great lyricist.....well he is....What a lot of people do not know is that he is a pretty good musician and performer as well. I wonder how good a lyricist he would be without all this musical knowledge and ability.

Yes there is room for poets to write words that can be set to music......but to produce proper lyrics you have to have a pretty good understanding of music theory....Ok some lyricists claim that they have this knowledge....I wonder....and I also wonder how much better they could be if they understood a bit more about music theory.

Can such a person who writes only poems be described as a songwriter or even a lyricist?......debateable.

For the same reason John Lennon didn't drum.

A lyric and a melody need to match. It doesn't matter which comes first, but they do need to match. I've often composed melodies to match an already written lyric. It works that way too.

There is a meter to everything ever spoken or sung. It doesn't always stick to constant iambic meter ("the DOOR was CLOSED for DAYS and DAYS") or trochaic ("PLEASE get DOWN you STUpid CAT!"), but there is indeed a metric structure to the melody, some sort of rhythmic pattern that will most likely repeat, and the "weight" of the words come into play when the lyric and melody are matched. So it really is the same work that poets might do, matching words to a rhythmic structure.

Learning the classic poetic structures is actually of great benefit to a lyricist.

Big Jim:

I don't want to get drawn into a GREAT BIG thing again where no one agrees. But I would like you to answer this question if you wish.

I spend the next 6 months learning to play an instrument (I can actually play an accordion) then I do a melody for some lyrics which I write to suit each other.

I then listen to some of your demos and think, wow this guy knows how to do COMPLETE songs. So I ask you in your studio guise to take what I have and do me a FANTASTIC demo.

Being that I base this on what I have heard you do before, does that mean that you can take my lyrics with melody and make a great demo for me.

If you thought that I HAD GOT THE MUSIC / MELODY TOTALY WRONG FOR THE LYRICS AND THAT IN YOUR opinion THEY DON'T BELONG TO EACH OTHER and would sound like crap, would you say that or carry on and make my demo.

If you thought you could do better than me would you offer to do just that.

I hope you see what I am getting at.

I could never in a million years get to your standard; you have what 20 30 years experience behind you.

That's what I pay for, your experience.

At what level would I have to be for YOU to except that musically I know what I am talking about, more so than you do.

Just a simple question really.

God Bless Roy and Helen

Hi Big Jim.

Bernie may be a good musician, but on no album he put out or was part of did he do anything other that speak (his "poetry" albums) or sing. He has no instrument credits on anything he put out.

You can, as they say, look it up. I did before I posted my remark

Now I'm not saying that I think people who aspire to writing lyrics should not play an instrument or understand music. I'm only saying there is room for all kinds.

I agree with this, and even in mundane speech is music inherent. In many ways we are musical beings, as we couldn't make ourselves understood without the rhythm and tonality in our speech and languages. Even our physical prescence is musical, the way we walk, gesture ect. So this makes perfect sense.

Most songwriters work from a head melody, rhythm, or the latent musicality of the way words are written in form, whatever form, poetry, lyricism ect.

It's a good way to understand why lyrics are important in a song, when lyrics are there, as certain lyrics invites certain melodic or rhytmical phrasing. If that invitation is not recieved well, there won't be much prosody, or marriage between the two language forms, music and words. I think this is simply because they follow the same rules.

At heart, music is no different than words in terms of musicality, and thats why prosody can exist in the first place. Prosody is more a synchonicity between music and words, than a "fit" between to seperate entities. It's like dancing, two partners has both to be great, and even if one can take the lead and make it work, if the balance is too much in favour of one, the dance will look avkward and less aestaetic..

Bill Robinson, I think you are a very smart man.


Colm, right back at you sir...if what you say is true, I can't play an instrument and the lyricists I work with and myself to some degree all write poetic lyrics, then how do I have songs? You don't have to like them, but they are music to my own ears...


Also Brian, you may not read this, but thank you for your posts, when I started all of this people asked me to stop since I couldn't provide my own music and I didn't and I have songs, I appreciate what you say, it means something to me and the journey that I have taken so far.

YOU GO POLLY!! COLLABS need to be celebrated more on JPF, it is the heart and soul of this board and why I love it here!

Tammy

Roy...OK I also do not want to get into a long drawn out argument....
I answer your questions simply with another question......Do you think that musical knowledge and the ability to understand the structure of chords and melody helps or hinders a lyricist? If the answer is helps then what is the prob in learning....now I am not expecting concert pianist or classical guitarists but some grounding would help a lot.....that is what I mean by a no brainer. The more musical knowledge and ability you have the better lyricist you will be.

To your second question......I do a lot of demo work.....ALWAYS try to do the best job I can...whilst I listen to the lyricist and try to do as he asks...I will often put my own stamp on the piece and sometimes recommend changing a melody or altering some lyrics. I will always ask first and keep people informed of progress. You have to remember that the person producing the demo has a reputation to keep...so there is no point in producing crap. It sometimes is a balancing act but I will try to give a client what he wants but honesty is the best policy......I am sure you will agree that sometimes a fresh pair of ears and mind can take a song to the next level or say back to the drawing board....I will listen to crits and advice and I hope others do the same. It is the end product that counts.

And Tammy, I am so pleased that you carried on. Yours are some of the most beutiful songs I listen to on a regular basis.

It would have been a crime not to carry on.

God Bless Roy and Helen.

and thanks for bumping the JPF collabs topic.

ALL--

IN MY 72 YEARS--a lot of Music has fallen upon my ears--across the spectrum.

I remember in my early years, I loved the BIG BANDS--the SWING BEAT after WWII--BLUES WAS BIG BEFORE, JAZZ AND ROCK AND ROLL--THEN CLASSIC ROCK, POP and DISCO--FINALLY MUSIC REALLY EXPLODED and is ever expanding into ALTERNATIVE and WORLD. Running Parrallel to THIS MAINSTREAM Music FLOWS CLASSICAL, ETHNIC, GOSPEL, and many I haven't mentioned.

My point is:

We should, starting out, pick only one area to DELVE INTO to excel (IT MAY OR MAYNOT PAY OFF)--Some writers or players can do more--No matter how good one may perceive themselves to be--someone else may be more accomplished and/or accepted--THAT DOESN'T MEAN ARTISTIC ENDEAVORS ARE A WASTE OF TIME OR EFFORT--FOR IF ONE LEARNS ANYTHING FROM BEING INVOLVED--IT SHOULD BE A PLEASURE TO PARTICIPATE--WHO KNOWS, IT COULD BE A LATER PROFESSION.

ALL ONE MUST DO IS LOOK AT THE TOP 100 SONGS IN DIFFERENT GENRES
FOR THE LAST 60 YEARS TO GET AN IDEA HOW BIG A DEAL MUSIC IS--WOW!

WE HAVE COME A LONG WAY SINCE "THE MAPLELEAF RAG" CAME OUT IN 1900.

THE MUSIC OF TODAY IS REALLY NO BETTER THAN BACK THEN IN THE MINDS OF THE LISTENER--MANY BOOKS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN ON MUSIC-- THEY WOULD FILL MANY LIBRARIES--

WE MUST PICK AND CHOOSE AN AREA OR INTEREST CLOSE TO OUR HEART--TRY TO DEVELOP AND LEARN AS AN AVOCATION, THEN THAT MAY TURN INTO A COMMERCIAL VENTURE WRITING AND/OR PLAYING--NETWORKING AND CO-WRITES MOST OF THE TIME HELP IMPROVE THE END PRODUCT--A COMPLETED SONG-- REALIZING ALL THE WHILE, IT MUST BE EQUAL TO THE BEST, TO HAVE ANY CHANCE IN THE MARKET PLACE.

THERE IS ALWAYS THE PRO STUDIO WAITING--I THINK IT TAKES ALL OF THESE IDEAS WORKING TOGETHER, TO LIFT MUSIC TO A LIGHER PLATEAU--I'M JUST GLAD, IF I CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING TO THE PROCESS--I SAY WRITE ON --OR PLAY ON, YOU ALL.....WE ALL HAVE DIFFERING OPINIONS, BUT THERE ARE TALENTS AND DISCOVERIES YET UNTAPPED, MAYBE EVEN ONE OF US!

WE ALL HAVE FAVORITE STYLES, LYRICISTS AND PLAYERS, THEREFORE WE MUST LEARN OUR OWN LIMITATIONS, THEN DECIDE HOW WE CAN FIT INTO THE MUSIC
PICTURE.

Mackie

Sure it will help Big jim, in lots of cases, but not all. Some, myself included just do not have the apptitude for music. WE REALLY DON'T. No one seems to understand that.

Everyone keeps saying, it's easy to learn to play an instrument. Of course a musician would say that, they have the apptitude for music and maybe quite a few years behind them.

So if that is the case, do we give up writing lyrics, and be made to feel that we are half persons, or do we work on writing the best lyrics that we can. WORKING on what we can do well.



Sure you do Big Jim, because of your experiance.

But surly you must sometimes get lyrics with someone singing them and playing an instrument badly where you think,'Oh No'this is total crap'.

I can understand advice and helping, thats what you do. But if I call you and say, Big Jim, I am a songwriter and I have been playing the guitar for 6 months and I have a song I would like you to demo for me. Here it is.

Because I have learnt to play the guitar, does that mean you have an advantage when doing me a demo for me, because of what I give you.

Or if my twin brother gave you his lyrics and told you the style and genra he was looking for, and some singers who it thought the song would suit.
And he asked for YOU to make the melody and the demo.

And the lyrics were well done for you to work with, would he have the advatage with you.

I hope that makes sense.

God Bless Roy and Helen

STOP! STOP NOW! FOR GOD'S SAKE! STOP THIS!

Where are all these 'emotive reactions' coming from?

Polly Hager

Thanks for your comments!

I couldn't agree more. Actually I simply can't or couldn't disagree with you. All recorded music is, of it's very nature, a collaboration. When did I say it wasn't? If I appeared to say that then my comments were clearly against my intentions. I play the guitar, the keyboards, the bass and harmonica! What I can't do is play them all together at the same time on stage!

Donna

Thanks for your input also.

Let me re-state the point I was trying to make. Pure lyrics well written with good meter - can always, without exception be put to music. I do not and have never contended they could not be! So about that you are correct!

I shall however, given the interest in the thread, attempt to supply numberous examples to illustrate the point that many of the lyrics of well known and successful songs simply do not conform to the rules of 'poetic meter' as 'pure lyrics' do!

Here's a quick example

'I know your name!'

or

'I know!'

Is the meter of both these lyrics the same or is it different?

Brian

Thanks for your interest here!

There's something about this topic which appears to expose a raw nerve amongst all members that have commented. And according to far older members than I - it has been a thread which periodically arises! In my defence, I should say that to characterize me as a bully of any sort publicly here, represents a gross misunderstanding of the contribution I was trying to share with you and all my fellow members!

As I understand it, from by personal perception this site www.justplainfolks.org is inspired by the spirit of collaboration between musical (and other artists) of all kinds. The fact that I made a suggestion - just a simple suggestion (or observation) about how we might all improve the quality of our collaboration by an exchange of knowledge about the pursuits we all most love, unfortunately now raises deep questions in my own mind about which kind of artist, is or isn't to be considered as a safe and valuable member of JPK, in the mind of the administrators of the site.

I am NOT a bully and the contention that I am because I, rightly, advice members to learn each and every aspect of the business to which they aspire to, in some way appears to you to alienate other members disappoints me!

We're all gone ups here!

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes here, which is my hope!

Regards

Colm

Note from Brian: I didn't edit anything except our web domain which Colm had wrong... we don't currently own the .com of our trademarked name. (We do own world wide use of "Just Plain Folks" and haven't tracked down all the infringing uses yet)

Ha Ha HA Colm. This is all ok. we are all friends here. This is how we sometimes discusss things. Heated lol.

Maybe somewhere along the line, some of us will change or adapt our views.

No one has said anything ABOUT YOU. You just started the thread.

This subject has always been emotive and myself along with many others have often had these same or similar discussions.

So please please don't think it's you. NOT at ALL.

Just sit back and watch it eventually die out, and we will all move on to another topic.

I've seen far more emotive than this, but we all carry on.

God Bless Roy and Helen

and so having started a riot at the church picnic-our hero returns to the safety of the pub-because there folks only fight when there's a real reason to-lol......

good going Colm my friend......

I applaud you and your inately Irish ability to leave wreck and ruin in your wake

though out of the running for the Nobel Peace prize you have earned your JPF forum combat medal with crossed flying chairs in record time..lol

I think I was the previous record holder for managing to get pitchforks waving and torches burning within 2 months of joining..but now I bow to the master......good for you....

anyway-have a laugh about it-cause controversy is welcome in all things musical and intellectual here at JPF......you are a talented songwriter and a cool dude as well..... looking forward to the fruits of our collabs and maybe use of your excellant interpersonal skills in finally getting the attention of Music Row-lol.....between the two of us I am sure we wont go easily from their minds.....

Happy Saturday-have one for me you old dog......


Tom

Colm, You might have presented your suggestion in the wrong format. Had you simply posed your question in song form, and left it at that, you could have avoided stirring up a big storm and no one would have called you a bully! You might have even gotten some good reviews.

Something like this:

Why don't all you poets pick up a guitar.
I say, why don't all you poets pick up a guitar
Learn to play 3 chords and you can be a star

It isn't rocket science, it ain't philosophy
It isn't rocket science, it ain't philosophy
Learn to write song lyrics, forget about poetry

Mr. Dylan did it, so can you and me
I say, Lady Gaga did it, so can you and me
Just learn to play 3 chords in the key of C

Why don't all you poets pick up a guitar.
I say, why don't all you poets pick up a guitar
Learn to play 3 chords and you can be a star

Sorry Tom I disagree. I think it was me. Within two weeks of joining me and Big Jim had a real hum-dinger on a post. But then he was the first to come out and defend my rights the very next day.

I can't remember what it was about. lol

We are still good JPF friends. why not.