JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Overly Logical Lyrics

Hi everyone

I've only been writing for a couple of years and I have this really annoying problem.

With 9/10 songs the lyrics don't make perfect logical sense, are vague or cryptic. I just don't seem to be able to write that way. all my lyrics have to flow like an actual story - so you could read them without music and they'd make sense. I don't do this on purpose - I just can't break out of it.

I'm not sure what anyone could say to help, I'm just throwing it out there, because I think it really holds me back. I can find a great hook but never finish the song because I can't find lyrics that express the feeling in logical word form.

Has anyone heard of anyone else with this problem?

Cheers

Mark

It's a little hard to comment on this problem without seeing any of your lyrics. I suggest you post something so we can see what you mean.

Some genres require lyrics that tell stories and are written in everyday language, so that is not necessarily a bad thing, but if your lyrics are written like a logbook, they could be boring.

One suggestion might be to paint a word picture of each scene in the story and let the listener's imagination fill in the details rather than just provide a list of events.

I'll make up an example:

I walked into the kitchen,
She stood there frying eggs
She smiled at me sweetly
and I admired her legs

or

The blue flame turned the pan bright red,
The eggs cracked in her hand,
A grin appeared upon her face,
Fingers twirled the wedding band

Mark, I'm probably being as thick as two planks here, but I don't quite understand the question.

Do you mean that you can't write lyrics with logical sequences, and you'd like to? Or that you do write logical lyrics, but would prefer to write something more vague and cryptic?

As I understand it, for most genres, a clear and consistent story is desirable. (In genres like New Age, prog-rock, heavy metal, and so on, one can get away with a lot more fanciful stuff.) In country, however, things need to be clear, with plenty of visual imagery and a conversational tone.

Do you write in a specific genre?

Good suggestion from Colin: Perhaps post a lyric here or to one of the Lyrics Feedback forums. (Forum 3 gets the most traffic.)

Donna

Sometimes or many times you will have to put a set of lyrics aside and come back to them later. Some songs will jell in time and others will never get finished. Every songwriter goes thru this.

Mark,

How are you? This is a constant quest that goes within songwriting communities. What IS Songwriting? Much has to do with background, influences and style or genre of music you are doing.

I usually try to describe it as the difference between a classical Dutch Masters painting, say a Michealangelo, Raphael, or Rembrandt. If it is supposed to be a woman with a mysterious smile, it looks like a realistic woman with a Mysterious smile like the Mona Lisa. If it is Men standing around a desk, it looks like men standing around a desk. If it is supposed to be a ceiling with scenes from the Bible, it looks like a ceiling with scenes from the Bibles. The Sistine Chapel.

On the other hand, some lyrics are like a Picasso or Jackson Pollock "splatter painting." It means what you feel like it should mean. Which is right?

Well the fact is, both. They are art and that is very subjective. The common denominator in both is the acceptance by the public.

Most rock, pop, alternative music is written in the more interpretive style with the lyrics often being metaphoric, free style and meant to be cryptic and vague so that the listener can draw their own conclusions.

Country, Americana, Roots, etc, are written more realistic and direct without eliciting interpretations. In country it is not the responsibility of the listener to "fill in the blanks." Both are valid and simply different approaches to the same subject.

But most rock, pop, and alternative, are self contained, meaning the music is written by the artist or a tight group of people in the cirlce of that artist, publishers, producers, band members, friends long time associates. Outside writers need not apply.

Country, while leaning very much that way, still allows for the outside writer. And in some very limited rock writing, Dianne Warren, for instance, outside cuts still come from those writers on the top of the heap.

The approach would be yours to make as what you want your music to do. For me personally, I always write in a very straight forward narrative style. I continuously write reality because if I am going through it, chances are other people too. My goal is to write something that other people hear and go "That is EXACTLY my life, only in a way I have never quite thought of before."

While I don't perform as much as I used to, it is still my goal to be instantly communicable where even people who I don't know at all and are hearing me for the first time will immediately hook into what I am doing. Even at times if they don't speak my language. I once played in Brussel's, Belguim, where a third of the audience did not speak English. But with my grooves, melodies and some fairly universal phrasing, managed to keep them with me throughout the performance.

There is neither right nor wrong in any of this. WRite what YOU feel good about writing. If you feel the cryptic stuff is not for you, don;'t write it or experiment with it and see where it goes. As a writer you should have a large depth of catalogue. Personally it doesn't work for me because I suck at it. I don't really have these deep seated, emotions that only I understand, in my inner recesses of what is left of my brain. I have to speak clearly cause I am not smart enough to do otherwise.

But some do. You should study a lot of music and aklways try to develop and learn. My particular suggestion to all writers is to cowrite as much as possible if nothing else to get a perspective from someone else and help you get outside of yourself. But the great thing about writing is that you can do it anyway you feel free to.
Don't get too confused in it. Somethings don't work for some people. There are people that would think I am too simplistic. That is fine too. I don't write for them. And vice versa.

Enjoy what you do and do it to the best of your ability. Don't worry about the rest.

I wish you well.

MAB

Hi Mark:

The ultimate proof of any lyric... and hopefully the melody which causes it to be a song... is the success it achieves in the hearts (and ears) of a constantly growing listening audience. I don't worry too much about following rules. I worry about the result. In the end, does it grab you? Is it something you are "forced" to play again and again? Do people request it constantly?

I agree that most songs require a story but some don't. The logic of the story is more important in some genres than others. Some songs don't require even logic or not much rhyme.

Marc B. has provided a professional perspective. I don't always agree with him but he certainly has known success and has a pretty big following. I disagree with the co-writing thing... not that it is a bad deal... just that I'd rather create the whole darn thing myself. It's administratively easier, requires nobody's approval but your own (and your fans) plus you don't have to share as many slices of the monetary pie... if it comes to that.

I have done a number of co-writes, by the way and it has it's benefits so well pointed out by Marc.

Regardless... write what's in your heart or on your mind. Rewrite until it's as perfect as you know how, then sit on it for a couple of days... listening often to be your own judge, before "rolling" the song out to the ears of the world. Often, what sounds great on the first take, sounds like something entirely different in the morning.

I've been listening to and practicing Paul Simon's "Sound of Silence" the last few days. Talk about logical yet mystical writing... this guy is a genius. I've been fascinated by this song since it came out in the 1960's. This folk-rock-ballad will be around long after we are gone. To me, it's a great benchmark with which to compare our own work as far as "grabbing" the ears of the listener.

Best wishes for your musical success. Don't be afraid to do it your way.

Dave

Hi Mark.

Dunno what to say. Perhaps get VERY drugged-up, & you can crank out something like Nirvanna's "LITHIUM"..(Which frankly I ENJOY listening-to, but the lyrics sorty-suck.)

Or, just go on being Logical..& DO finish Your Songs..then post a few here. (You'll be among friends~)

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

I don't think the problem is with the logic...the problem is with adhering to structure. In other words, you have a pattern of meter and rhyme to adhere to...and you usually end up finding that the only way to finish the line with a rhyme sort of compromises the exact meaning. For example, maybe you wanted to indicate "conflicted", but had to settle for a rhyme like "sad", glad" or "mad".

It all gets back to the age-old truth: writing well is usually difficult, and simple lyrics that say it all perfectly...are hard to find.

Wow thanks everyone.

I'm a little taken aback to be honest. I didn't expect anything approaching this much (or this thoughtful) of a response!

I feel kinda silly now

First off I am only a beginner really - an amateur.

It's in the writing process. I'll come up with a vocal melody or hook that I feel is good enough to build a song around. But it never gets any further most of the time because I can't build a logical or cohesive story around it. Each line I write has to tie into the previous one.

Whereas the great songwriters don't do that most of the time. Sound of Silence is a great example. The song is amazing and conveys everything it needs to and more, without ever really making a whole lot of sense logically (on the surface at least).

Here's one I have written, which I think suffers melodically because of the way I operate lyrically. I'm sure I've written much better molodies than this, lol. I'm not sure what genre I write in btw. Wow, this is embarrasing and scary, showing you guys this.


Not The One

You walk through this world
Like it won`t hurt you when you fall
So strong, so strong
And so not needing me
Your words are fire
But your eyes are stone
So cold, so cold
Yet so damned beautitiful

Somehow I know
It won`t be me you choose to let in
It can`t be me that pierces your shell
Somehow I know
That I`m not the one

Behind your walls
You`re so safe from pain
So safe, so safe
Yet so far beyond my reach
A priceless jewel behind the glass
So close, so close
And yet a thousand miles away

Somehow I know
It won`t be me you choose to let in
It can`t be me that pierces your shell
Somehow I know
That I`m not the one

I can`t be there to comfort you
When your walls come tumbling down
I can`t be there to centre you
When your world is spinning around

I pray the one that bears the key
Is strong enough to carry the load
And if someday you think of me
You should know that I'll be thinking of you
And me and what might have been
But I'm not the one


I pray the one that bears the key
Is strong enough to carry the load


Here's me singing a rough cut of it:

http://musicianstogether.com/video/95MBOYOOYD81/Not-the-One

Well I think a lot of sense has been spoken and good advice has been given here.
I tend to think that there are many types of songs and many styles of lyrics and it is very difficult to find your own style. Sometimes lyrics might make perfect sense to the writer given that he has experienced the situation and can read his own interpretation into the lyrics BUT others might think what the hell is that all about. I listened to your song and read the lyrics and whilst most of it makes sense other bits are like what the hell is he talking about. You have to put yourself into the mind of the listener and think from a neutral POV does it make sense and will people understand the story or message I am trying to put forward. Now I am a great believer in leaving the listener to fill in his own blnks and allow him to interpret the song his own way BUT there must be clues and substance to allow him to do it. That said it is a free world and writers can write and perform anything they like. If it is for your own amusement then anything goes BUT if you are writing for others to perform or for the entertainment of outsiders then the rules and formats for successful writing have to be defined and followed.

Good Morning Mark... and Mark... and Marc... and everybody else:

First, thanks for having the courage to ask the question about logical lyrics. I'm pleased that you took our comments so positively. I'm also glad to see that Big Jim has "weighed in" and I cannot overstress the importance of the last line in his message. (He knows of what he speaketh!)

Mark, I hope you will be encouraged by our remarks and ignore any inadvertent negativity. We are all here to try and help ourselves understand the complex world of the music industry and the difficulty of writing and performing great songs.

When you have time, I hope you will begin to visit the Lyrics Boards and the MP3 Forum. Those portions of this great site are dedicated to precisely what you are seeking. Thanks again for bringing up this subject... and best wishes for success and happiness in your music.

Dave

I can't add a thing to whats been said already. Personally, I usually write a "song story" to go along with my songs. That is to keep the original intent of things in perspective and to dispell any erroneous interpretations. Just a thought.

This is my first time doing this, replying to someone,I hope you're not taken back or anything. I'm not good at these things but felt compelled to say something because I've been in your shoes. so this is just what I do when I hit a block. I Pretend I'm someone else writing the lyric. ok bye.

mw.

Like Willie Nelson, Carl Perkins, George Jones, Hank Williams Sr.?

P.

Dolly Parton, Tammy W., DW, Loretta L.

Petra you have hit upon a thing that a lot of songwriters especially novices fail to do. Look at a truly great song by a truly great writer and analyse what makes it great. Now Iam not saying that we should copy or steal ideas or clever lines from others BUT we can see the tricks of the trade and learn how they work. Things like song formats rhyme patterns storytelling and layout are easier to learn when you see them in action.

JIm,

I agree, I was just replying to the post above suggesiton; we should look at the songwriters that wrote the hits for the artists mentioned. Study their lyrics as a guide.

Petra

Mark,
Thanks for asking this question. This post has helped me also with the responses given. I have had both problems. Times when I am irritated because my lyrics are too simplistic (for lack of a better term) and other times too vague but fit the melody so well I have a hard time changing them. I think for me it's come down to putting more time into a song. And I don't mean sitting for hours and hours on end until you "fix it" but setting it aside and thinking about it a little at work or on vacation or whatever. I think for me I get frustrated and force something I know is not quite right. Then I post the lyrics or song and people often times tell me what I already knew about a certain line or part of my song that is weak. And then rewrites....Don't get me started!!!

As much as I hate how hard it can be for me, I LOVE it at the same time. I am now actually glad it is not easy and is a severe challenge and I am determined, like you, to get better.

Hang in there and don't give up. You will be rewarded for the time spent even though you may not think so now!

And thanks to all who responded to this post. I like to write mostly in a rock/alternative style and knowing it's ok if it's a little vague helps. I have listened to and loved so many songs that I did not know what they were about that I kind of lean towards those kind of lyrics. But I always need to work on my rhyming scheme and structure!

Ricky

"I usually try to describe it as the difference between a classical Dutch Masters painting, say a Michealangelo, Raphael, or Rembrandt. If it is supposed to be a woman with a mysterious smile, it looks like a realistic woman with a Mysterious smile like the Mona Lisa. If it is Men standing around a desk, it looks like men standing around a desk. If it is supposed to be a ceiling with scenes from the Bible, it looks like a ceiling with scenes from the Bibles. The Sistine Chapel.

On the other hand, some lyrics are like a Picasso or Jackson Pollock "splatter painting." It means what you feel like it should mean. Which is right?

Well the fact is, both. They are art and that is very subjective. The common denominator in both is the acceptance by the public." -MAB

Marc, that's some of the best teaching I've ever read from you. Great job!

Brian

I try not to suck.

M

Thanks Marc, there is loads of really good stuff in this post.

Hi Colin

Thanks for that - it's a really good example.

On the other had I quite like your first example, mind if I use it in a song?

Hi Donna

You are not being thick at all. If anyone was it was me

I think I was venting as much as posting a question.

But I have gotten some great feedback anyway

Thanks Ray

That's the only way I've ever been able to complete a crossword too

Hi Dave

I'm not really trying to 'make it' or anything to be honest, so doing it my way and hoping some people connect and get some pleasure from one of my songs is probably a great aim for me.

I love Sound of Silence too. I've always found it quite tough vocally though - probably because I keep shifting between the two parts.

That's quite an interesting idea actually Rick. I've just done a degree at university and never wrote an essay without some sort of plan. It would probably be a good idea for me to try the same with my songwriting - rather than the 'it must happen in a burst of artistic inspiration' type approach.

Hey Stan

The drugs certainly seemed to work well for many of my favourite writers

Unfortunately weed just sends me to sleep and I'm too scared of anything stronger

Hi Jim

I think it was the 'what the hell is he on about' I was trying to achieve. Perhaps I should be looking for the opposite.

You've certainly got me on the issue of studying the craft, its rules and formats - I haven't done nearly enough of that.

Thank you for taking the time to listen and read and I will certainly take on board what you have said.

Hi Mark

I think I may actually be making the mistake of trying to be too clever and not looking for those simple lyrics.

thanks for the food for thought.

Go ahead!

Hi Dave

I will certainly be delving into the different areas of the site over the coming weeks. I have also taken Jim's advice squarely on the chin - he is absolutely right.

As for the negativity - that's kinda what I have come here for. I actually have my own music site. But it is filled with friends and people that know I am the guy behind the site, which makes getting objectivity there a much more difficult task.

I have been really bowled over by people taking the time to respond to this thread. I think this level of interest/care is difficult to find and I will be recommending this site to the people on mine

Hi Billy

I really appreciate your response mate. That is a great idea. I'll certainly give it a try

Thanks Petra. I think you and Jim are spot on - I'll certainly be taking that advice

Thanks Ricky

It's good to know it's not just me

I guess if we are here, even asking the questions we must be somewhere along the right track.

Hey Mark,
When you get some time check out the mentor mp3/lyric critique forum. I just discovered it lately and it's very interesting to read and try to learn how lyrics and rhymes really work. May not work for you but definitely a good place to learn something!
Ricky

Hi Brian

I agree - Marc's post was so good I just had to thank him for the whole thing, rather than try to address it point by point.

BYW, you have a fantastic site here. Certainly the best message board, of any type, I have ever come across.

Haha - thanks Colin - if I ever write that song, you'll be the first to get to hear it

Mark I am glad that you are getting and taking on board the advice given...just remember that rules are made to be broken....but in order to successfully break them you need to know them. Some of the best rulebreakers can also be the best at knowing and following them.

Thanks Jim - fantastic advice