JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum so who really controls the world??

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1107/1107.5728v2.pdf


This link is to a pdf file. It is a study of who controls the world's corporations, which translates into economic control (wealth and investment choices)and political clout.

No surprise really when you think about it. Each of these large players own and\or manage (as wealth managers for others) chunks of the largest corporations, and they all talk to eachother...

The study found that of the 43,000 or so trans national corporations in the world, 40 per cent of all those companies were controlled by just 147 corporations, most of which were financial institutions such as Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Barclays etc

Here's the top 50

1. Barclays plc
2. Capital Group Companies Inc
3. FMR Corporation
4. AXA
5. State Street Corporation
6. JP Morgan Chase & Co
7. Legal & General Group plc
8. Vanguard Group Inc
9. UBS AG
10. Merrill Lynch & Co Inc
11. Wellington Management Co LLP
12. Deutsche Bank AG
13. Franklin Resources Inc
14. Credit Suisse Group
15. Walton Enterprises LLC
16. Bank of New York Mellon Corp
17. Natixis
18. Goldman Sachs Group Inc
19. T Rowe Price Group Inc
20. Legg Mason Inc
21. Morgan Stanley
22. Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group Inc
23. Northern Trust Corporation
24. Soci�t� G�n�rale
25. Bank of America Corporation
26. Lloyds TSB Group plc
27. Invesco plc
28. Allianz SE 29. TIAA
30. Old Mutual Public Limited Company
31. Aviva plc
32. Schroders plc
33. Dodge & Cox
34. Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc*
35. Sun Life Financial Inc
36. Standard Life plc
37. CNCE
38. Nomura Holdings Inc
39. The Depository Trust Company
40. Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance
41. ING Groep NV
42. Brandes Investment Partners LP
43. Unicredito Italiano SPA
44. Deposit Insurance Corporation of Japan
45. Vereniging Aegon
46. BNP Paribas
47. Affiliated Managers Group Inc
48. Resona Holdings Inc
49. Capital Group International Inc
50. China Petrochemical Group Company

Arh, we tend to ascribe these corporations way too much power. I'm not buying it :-) I have control over my view of the world, thus I rule the world as I know it..

Are you Kidding John,
I have checked and checked and checked. Nobody is in charge and you can take that to the bank. What's a bank? Glad you asked. I don't know.

One day someone asked, where's John. The Reply. I don't know, it's not my day to watch him. Who's in charge. I think you are.

Who really controls most corporations? You and I and everyone else we know. We do it via stocks or retirement funds. We also do it by who we choose to do business with.

Even using your stats (which are not in their original and complete context), the majority owners of those companies are not those 147 corporations, they are still us.

All that said, are you making a point? I don't fear ANY corporation. But I do fear quite a few governments. That is where all the power lies. And of course those corporations who are simply cronies with specific politicians and parties, especially those in the US who pay no US taxes. GE anyone? I'd put them way at the top of villanous companies. And yet I can still choose not to buy their products. I can also choose to vote against politicians who are deep between the sheets in bed with them. Corporations are easy scapegoats but are largely harmless and susceptable to changing tides. Remember Microsoft? Does anyone really fear them anymore with Apple and Google and Facebook ruling that space right now?

I do fear the lack of free, open, two or more sided speech across media platforms. I also fear lies and propaganda being spewed out. But truth often shines bright when a little light is shown on a subject. Behind every scapegoat is a coward who knows if they told the truth, the masses would reject their real motives and ideas. So they create a straw man for crony propagandists to flog to cover up their actions and intent.

Brian

Actually Brian, if you own shares in any corporations, you know that their Board of Directors and their top management teams make all the decision.

So yes, shareholders (and most of these are pension funds and mutual funds along with thousands of individual investors) may ultimately own the corporations listed, but that does not mean they control their actions. Kinda like voters do not control the action of governments.

And my point? It is an interesting, timely, and completely scientific study. I have not editorialized it, and simply stated the facts.

Should we fear it? Not sure. Should we think of it as a good thing?? Not sure. But it is good to know.

Too much power in too few hands is a bad thing. Especially when they control the governments who make the laws that favour the billionaires. Tax the people but don't tax me.

Well,
I may be getting in a little deep here. You guys never heard the saying: NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE POWER OF A WOMAN? Where you been. Mammy Yokum is in charge!

"Dunkin Donuts" is missing from that list!
Talk about control over people!

Seems the ones with the bigger boats have the bigger weapons, and a lot more of them.

But in my little world? Cindy, and my kids and their kids have control over me, for I can't help but to be involved in what they all want to do! I love that type of control! Need it too.

I think it's a mistake to focus on individual corporations or particular groups of organisations (like banks) - that response in itself simply re-inforces the belief that capitalism can be fair and simply needs better rules.

Bankers and plutocrats aren't necessarily bad people, and they don't 'rule the world' - but the action of capital can be very negative. Exploitation of resources and labour is, after all, a form of organised thievery, so somebody always loses. Blaming corporations is futile. It is the fact that exist which is the root cause of the problem.

Dan

Taking it back to songwriting...........

"Money talks" from "Forever In Blue Jeans" by Neil Diamond

I posted this because I thought it a timely study, given what is happening in today's economy, and the questions being asked about concentration of economic wealth and power.

And I disagree with Brian. The heart of the problem is that politicians, especially in the USA, are subject to lobbyists and their money so that behind the scenes, those corporations with much to gain or much to lose from pending legislation will work hard to gain a favourable outcome. Its just the way it works.

Now am I concerned about this particular concentration? As I said, I'm not sure. A lot of it is because of the fact that these financial institutions are also wealth managers for other institutions and investors, ie pension funds, mutual funds etc.

But I am in favour of more regulation of financial institutions because it is the lack of regulation and oversight that got us in this mess in the first place. Canada's banking and financial system has been consistently rated as the most stable in the world over the past several years, precisely because it was and is regulated.

Right now, as we speak, governments are discussing this very issue, and Wall Street is lobbying hard to maintain the status quo. We'll see what happens.

I know one thing...shareholders control nothing unless they have enough shares for a seat on the board....even then they will not get the final say unless they own 51% of the shares.
The world's economy is basically controlled by a very small group of very rich very influential people....who decide pretty much everything...they can hold countries and governments to ransom just by threatening sanctions or to close down or move their operations somewhere else.
One statistic worth noting is that in the UK less than 7% of the population own more than 84% of the wealth. Whichever way you look at things and whatever political persuasion you are that seems pretty one sided and pretty unequal. I suspect the figures are similar in most other countries.
Re "Money Talks"..... that is true and it also communicates none verbally....it gives the finger gesture to those without.

Mornin' Guys and Gals:

I don't have the foggiest notion regarding who controls the world... but it's not the United Nations. Here in the United States... at present... nobody's in control 'cause we have a deranged person at the helm... doing his best to sink the "ship of state."

Corporations are not the problem as we so loudly hear between drumbeats... in the public parks in several large cities (especially NYC near Wall Street) and all that drum beating and mess making is certainly bound to drive voters in a more lucid direction. Now that Ms. Pelosi has endorsed this collection of fools... it's clear what they "stand for" ...Something for nothing!

Ray... I remember Mammy Yokum. If she want's to be in charge... it's okay with me. Couldn't be worse than what we have endured here in the Nanny State lately.

Nobody made me buy those shares of Ford... remember them... the automaker that did not take a bailout? Of course I have no control over them. Why would I even want to? All I'm asking them to do is build better cars, sell them and make me some money. If they don't... I'll unload their shares... hopefully at a profit. In the end, the shareholders have the power to bring down any corporation.

That's just my "right wing" Teaparty Republican opinion and I'll vote every time I have the opportunity.

Good Morning Bro Dave,
I think a lot of people voted themselves Pay Raises but the forgot to tell the Boss.

Bro John thinks there are intellegent people meeting secretly coniving on how to keep the Peasants down. Some think, and expect the Govemnt to take care of them. And when it didn't all work out the peasants took to the streets. Where was it that the people protested having to work past 55 or some simular time but the Govenment saw the money was going to run out way too soon. France or Englsnd, I think. Now it's Greece that is a basket case.

The best laid plans of Mice and Men I always say. Now let's see. The Annointed one is now trying to fix all the debt of Student Loans. All dressed up and no place to go. Lead on.

If you look at my postings Ray, I don't think that at all...

Ray do not talk about pay rises when the bankers voted themselves billions in bonuses for bringing the whole banking system into ruin resulting in the countries you mention going to the dogs.
And re the government cannot afford to pay pensions, health care etc......we could pay that several times over without a tax raise if the multi millionaire scroungers who owe billions in tax avoidance and evasion were brought to justice.
Just for the record those people who took to the streets were protesting because they were being denied their rights and were not going to get the pension plan they are due and had contributed to for many decades through the government pension plan. Nothing to do with government handouts.
If you took out an insurance policy or pension plan and the company reneged then you also might protest I would imagine.
But I forget under your system only the rich have any rights.

Well,
The "System" has to work but when part of it gets Out of Balance there has to be or will be a correction.

It is not wise to put "someone else" in charge of your future.
If you are "Booking" your own life as least you can control it. And Least You Forget, There is no "Free" Lunch. You, (we), all pay somewhere. Some think they can beat the "System". Good luck I say.

Respectfully Big Jim, those CEO's that make/get huge amounts of money from the Corporations are paid for their expertese. Well some may get a Golden Parachute and didn't earn it but most do.

It is very easy to be a good worker but making those business decisions are always a "Crap shoot" Do you want to be a CEO of a huge company? I don't.

Mornin' Big Jim:

I'm trying to grasp the concept regarding "rich people." For the sake of discussion, imagine one of your records went cash-viral and you became as rich and famous as the Beatles. In most government tax schemes... you end up paying as you go. Their "watchdogs" (the IRS in the US) want their money up front each quarter. The same scenario holds true for the innovative individual who "parlays" an idea or work ethic into a fortune.

Are you saying that they should pay more than any other citizen? I fail to understand how being rich throws one into another stigmatized class. Isn't that bigotry? I've always wanted to become rich. It's supposedly the American Dream.

If you are saying that our tax laws are so convoluted (sorta like the music industry) so much so, that one must hire accountants, lawyers (barristers) and other minions to keep from paying more than the badly written law requires... then I understand where you are coming from. That is why I favor a flat tax... one where every living soul required to pay taxes on income... should pay the exact same percentage. No ifs, buts, or loopholes about it.

Please explain... 'cause I mean no disrepect. I just want to understand your perspective.

Thanks,

I am saying that the problem arises when people do not pay what they are due....I do not expect them to pay more than they are liable for....just to pay their bills.
It is no secret that some of the richest people in the world shirk this by clever tax avoidance measures...where we the workers pay through the nose as we go....and it is actually us who subsidise them.....
Read this...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/02/tax-gap-avoidance
If only a fraction of this money was collected then we would not be in the finacial state we all are now. OK there are some shirkers who live on handouts and that is very wrong....but it pales into insignificance compared top the cons these top companies work to avoid paying tax.....One company I am sorry but I forget their name...actually paid no tax yet made billions in pre tax profit.

Nice of you to insinuate that one of my records could go platinum....LOL.... But in the unlikely event that it did I not only would pay every penny due on it...I would give most of my money away....probably to starving third world people...or to gifted musicians struggling to buy equipment and pay rent. I have no need for riches....I am not extravagent or greedy.....I just need enough to pay my bills and put food on the family table.

PS.....Vince Cable HYPOCRATE a liberal democrat in bed with the Tories....was just today fined for failing to pay his tax bill.....this is the same man who bleated about the tax avoidance scam and wants people to pay their dues in the article I gave a link to......you have to laugh and you could not make that kind of stuff up. Now you might have some idea why I am a socialist.

Hey Big Jim:

We have similar views on many things regarding income taxes. I see the problem as not being caused by the rich nor the corporations. The problem lies squarely at the feet of governments who create these "loophole" laws in the first place.

I do not blame anyone anymore for wanting to keep every possible hard earned penny from the hands of governments who quickly squander the money on buying votes. (Like Mr. Obama is trying to do today... changing the college loan problem so the young and inexperienced will be ingraciated to him... he sees them as uninitiated fools!)

I pay only what I owe. After all, I have worked and saved all my life in order to be able to retire and then, hopefully, leave a little of what is left of my little nest egg to my children and heirs. I believe it is patently wrong for a government to write tax laws that are so difficult to understand, they require the poor schnook taxpayer to have to hire an accountant or lawyer just to ensure that the IRS does not spring the trap-door on the unwary.

As I recall, we fought for our American Independence because of Taxation without Representation. Even though we have elected officials here (ostensibly to represent us) they spend all their time running for re-election instead of being our representatives.

Seriously, it is not the fault of the rich. If we change the attitude of patronizing governments, the problem will go away.

Lastly, Jim... it is my sincere hope that you actually do become rich and famous with one (or several) of your songs. I'll be proud to say that we often agree to disagree, amicably... at JPF.

Dave I cannot comment much on Obama or any of the rest buying votes or only bringing out policies to appease certain individuals or groups....cause as far as I am concerned all politicians are corrupt....Just to redresss the balance I think that Bush had some pretty dodgy policies that were questionable as to their fairness or ethics.....in defence of Obabma at least his ethics and policies are generally aimed more at the folk who really need help most...rather than just helping out the already fat cats.... most conservatives seem to spend a lifetime doing that.
I remember once I had a job as a salesman working for a very rich guy....he was the most stupid, laziest, meanest, SOB I had ever met. He paid minimum wage and would have paid less if he could get away with it. The workers were treated with the poorest working conditions, some of which were illegal....and health and safety was very poor.....he sacked anybody who wanted a union.
As a manager I was asked by the workforce to take up some issues on their behalf....I also had some of my own I needed resolved.....
Long story short he refused all of the reasonable requests which were asked.....his reply "if you do not like it then you know what to do" so I said "sure and I am going to do it straight away"...."sorry to see you leave" he laughed....."oh I am not leaving I am reporting you to the Health and Safety Commission and Immigration, and the Inland Revenue and the Highways agency for falsifying tachograph and drivers hours worked......."of course you could give us what we are entitiled to and clean up your act...and I will reconsider".........rather than risk a lengthy prison sentence he agreed to give us what we wanted.
The reason I tell this is that there are stupid lazy people and crooks from all walks of life and just because someone has a lot of money does not make them any better or superior...or more honest.
My grandfather used to say that rich folk with plenty of money never made it ethically or honestly.....I tend to agree.

This is an ignorant statement. No offense Jim.

That's a rather Bazaare statement your grandfather made Big Jim. I wonder what gave him his first clue? If someone didn't do the dirty work where would we get our welfare checks?

I'm just gong to answer the topic question posed with:

DOLPHINS


this is why the tuna companies are out to get them.
ok bye

NO THE STATEMENT IS NOT BIZARRE....OR INDEED IGNORANT......IT IS TRUE.

History should tell us that wealth and power is usually inherited....from the feudal system....days when serfs were owned by landlords and the peasants did all the work, lived in squalor whilst the rich lazed about in luxury.

To say that the statement is ignorant...actually shows a great ignorance and naivity.

Whilst there are exceptions to the rule.....they are few and far between.

Our countries were built on slavery......that principle albeit watered down still exists.

Ray and Ben..no offense but......obviously on the day they taught history at school you pair were absent.

My grandfather was born in the 1880s...he lived through two world wars and saw the depression.....he saw the way the colonial empire invaded countries, stripped wealth and raped and pillaged these countries assets.....he saw first hand the misery of the Glasgow slums....he also saw the extreme luxury some were living in in comparison.....you do not need to be Einstein to realise that something is very wrong with our so called civilised society.....and who to blame.
He taught me to never take sides, or prejudge anyone. He encouraged me to read and to question everything......unlike a lot of people I was encouraged to have a mind of my own.....that is why after much research and my own experiences I am left wing, hate capitalism and its privileged ideology and see religion as corrupt and ignorant.

Try as I may... Big Jim... I just don't think I'm going to convince you to become and arch-conservative. (My bad!)

In your defense, I've heard a similar statement about "behind every fortune lies a crime"... all my life. Your grandfather's perspective was during the beginning period of the decline of the "Empire" and I generally agree with his observations.

I still believe that there are more good people in the world than bad. I believe that each of us must earn our own way, conserve resources and borrow only what is necessary... then pay it back as fast as possible.

Like you, I believe that the big banks have been encouraged by governments to plunder the populace with ridiculously high interest rates. Credit card debt is a major problem in this country... and our bankruptcy laws are a joke. I wonder if "rich" lawyers and politicians had anything to do with this?

In many ways, I agree with you... but in equal measure... I respectfully disagree... but I hope you will remember to send me an autographed Album Cover when you've gone platinum!

So, who controls the world? Well lots of things happened over the Centuries that are written down and are in the History Books so I suppose anyone can study and form an opinion. I believe I can safely say that nobody in particular cotrol's the world. A lot of people throught the ages may had some influence and did shape history but controlling the world? I don't think so.

No matter who you think control's the world you probably control your little corner, albit it is very small!

Golly yes Big Jim. I have read about the Feudal System and as much as I read about it, I am still not clear of how it worked. But to add fuel to the flame, my ancester came across the channel with William the Concuerer(Mis Spelled) and was a part of the winning side. So my ancesters were part of the Feudal System, got land, power, and all the trimmings of power! No kidding! I understand William was tyrannical but also fair. I don't know. I wasn't there.

My father, Big Jim, not my grandfather but my father, was born in 1871. So you see I have observed a lot of History, but learned most of it, just like you. In books or other publications. And I know, sometimes people have to do things to move the system forward, even if there are some bodies left in the wake. As much as your socialist views want, God waits for no man. When it is time to move he moves, like it or not. It is called destinty. But i'm not mad at you or the world, I just understand it. Hey. Write a Hit!

Control the World? I imagine that implies controlling its inhabitants as well. Government, corporations (government extensions), politically correct hogwash, famous individual opinions, etc. can only be controlling if an individual buys into it. Keeping an objective mind-set and not allowing the brain to warp from the flood of media nonsense should keep the controllers at bay.

John

As much as I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings on board here, I must say I'm pretty convinced a lot of devastating things this civilization is facing comes from religious organizations, which all in all function like a kind of mafia, protected from the inside by one another and by the states and systems all over the world. Here in Europe we have a history of religious wars, mindless blood-sheds, witch hunts, persecution of all kinds of people who are "different", and most of it was, actually, inspired and conducted by different religious organizations (In that manner the Bolsheviks could also be considered a kind of "religion", although they were atheists, 'cause they were more or less organized the same way, with strong and firm authority and nobody to question it). I'm not saying it to make anyone feel bad, I myself am a believer and I think faith of any kind can be a great force in life to take you forward, but I do and always will question any kind of authority, religious or else. I think it was Mark Twain who once said that the duty of any true patriot is to always criticize the government in order to make it more aware of it's failures. I fully agree with that. So yes, we all do have a bit of control over a small circle around us, but it's true that more and more of different things are aimed at taking that control off our hands, simply because the system, the governments, the banks, corporations and for centuries and maybe even more then others, the religious organizations, don't want to be questioned about anything they do and are capable of doing anything to keep us away from deciding about the directions the world is taking and to gain even more power. It has been happening for a long, long time and they want to keep it that way. But if we are aware of that we can confront it and keep our lives for ourselves and the ones we care about.

I read a book, titled, I think, "What Really Happened At Bendix". What was most fascinating was who sat on the boards of various companies, where they selected the CEO's and COO's, and CFO's, who then did their bidding. They sat on multiple boards, each giving the other what it wanted, wheeling and dealing, making companies collapse, merge, buy, sell, whatever would put power and money into their hands. "You sit on my board, and I'll sit on yours. You give me who and what I want and I'll do the same for you."
I read a fascinating book about a fellow named Bernie Cornfeld and how some people swept in with a Nazi-like efficiency and took his company away from him. They even stole the art off the walls, like the Nazis.
There is collusion by those wielding power in commerce and those wielding power in government, Mussolini's definition of fascism, setting up and knocking down targets for fun and profit. They rob the stock market with regularity. They deregulate and steal whatever previous governments have regulated, with regularity. The collapse of the Savings & Loan industry, which had not lost a dime in 60 years of lending for farms and homes, was preceded by its deregulation, enabling S&L's to lend for anything. They lent money for office buildings in markets where there was a glut of unleased office buildings, apartment and condo buildings where there was no demand. These buildings often stood empty, decaying until they had to be razed, without ever being occupied. Then lent money for a pornography collection, which the government then had to sell when it took over the failed S&L. S&L's don't exist anymore. A whole class of financial institution ceased to exist. A lot of money got laundered there, and nice, clean money found plenty of cheap assets being sold by the government. Whoops? Accidental? No. An inside job, that worked like a charm.
The current housing crisis was too universal to have simply 'happened'. Professional lenders, coast to coast, forgot how to make loans at interest to amateur borrowers who could pay them back. This coast to coast epidemic of stupid would be remarkable indeed if not for the paper trail of collusion among commercial lobbyists and government deregulation. And guess who ends up owning all the foreclosed real estate? The same people who set it up, and knocked it down.
The 'Occupy' group, individuals coming together to do what media has not, what no political party has done, to point the finger at the enemy who accomplished what no foreign enemy could, the collapse of the American economy, indeed the economy on a global scale. They've hit us where we live, literally, and, after we all agree that our assets are devalued, they will buy them or 'assume' their ownership for a fraction of the value they once had, and the value will be restored in their pockets.
Kevin Phillips' book, "American Theocracy" talks about the pseudo-religious influences in modern politics for the first half of the book, but then moves on to the 'financialization' of the economy, a condition he says preceded the collapse of many empires in the past. It's a condition wherein a 'rentier' class is created, a class of people who own things and take profit from them, without really contributing anything. We're there. We've reached that point in the evolution of our commercial functioning where a rentier class is bleeding off the cream at the top, starving the 'being' at its roots, chilling and killing the economy. The social implications of millions of people losing their homes will be complex and long-lasting, but the top dogs will come out on top again. Who 'runs' things? Who 'ran' this operation? It wasn't millions of Americans all acting on their own in ways that just happened to all combine to this singular effect, the housing crisis, collapsing the economy. That took some wheeling and dealing, a long, slow setup. And then the jerking of the rug out from under them. That took some big, ready hands. (Phillips has another book, "Bad Money" on the housing crisis. I haven't read it yet.)
Watch for 'deception'. Keep a list. Soon it will grow long. Examples of deception abound, people trying to mislead you, to mischaracterize reality, to tell you something is one thing, or one way, when you might know, or later find out, wasn't that way at all. Deception.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-banks-undermine-occupy-protestors-memo-213618820.html Group offers to smear Occupy. Deception.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/group-in-u-s-hoped-for-big-payday-in-offer-to-help-gaddafi-151084 Group offers to help Gadafi. Deception.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201111170007 Fox refers to White House shooter as "Occupy shooter". Deception.

It's laughable to suggest that corporations are getting anyone elected in the USA since Obama, Mr. Billion dollars this year in election donations he's going for, is anti capitalist all day and night, except for narrow crony capitalism which isn't free market because the fix is in via government. If your theory was correct, all the money would go to the conservatives who support the free market and support capitalism rather than going to the Occupy Wall Street endorsers Obama, Biden, Pelosi et al. His money comes from people on the government dole: Unions, and cronies. And their investments paid off big time in blatant corruption and an explosion in debt (4 trillion in 2 years) that was used to prop up union pensions in states and to hire lots more bureaucrats to dig deep into controlling private commerce as much as they could so even more cronyism would ensue.

The middle and lower middle class grew in wealth by 40% in the past 10 years. Even though the super rich got richer, so did everyone else in the USA except able bodied people who chose not to work. Most of the bottom working class are no legal US citizens, which is all the more reason to prevent illegal immigration because those are the people who are most used and abused when they are outside the system. I would be all for raiding all companies and shutting down those with rampant violations of immigration laws. Citizens who work in the USA are far better off than even the upper income of nearly all other countries and certainly better than state controlled countries who literally use slave labor (China... Russia... Venezuela etc.). Or dictator controlled countries. Or countries in current anarchy or military rule. Socialism and Communism are failed ideologies and always have been and always will be. Other "State" run nations (like.. oh.. Nazi Germany, Italy in WWII etc.) have also worked out SOOOOOO well.

In the USA, we now have a President who is saying he is going to act "around" our congress instead of letting them create and pass laws, budgets etc. as our constitution allows. Jesse Jackson Jr. said he should just take over and act without any involvement from our congress, something that does in fact add up to TREASON, and another Democrat (can't remember which branch I am sure a quick search will find his statement if it hasn't already been scrubbed) suggested we suspend all elections for at least 2 years and let Obama stay in charge. That is scary stuff. And of course these "occupy" protests are full of law breaking,violence, rape,theft and literal Nazi's and anti semites calling for the execution of the Jews as well as open communists, socialists and anarchists, and lately some Islamic extremists tossed in, each more clueless than the next, but as a MOB they are VERY dangerous. And there's our President, VP and former Speaker of the House openly endorsing them over and over. (For the record, there was zero violence, damage, destruction, crime or anti-american rhetoric nor ANY arrests for ANYTHING from all these months of Tea Party gatherings by comparison).

The problem isn't Capitalism, the Constitution, Liberty, Freedom or Free Trade, it's runaway government, crony government in bed with crony capitalists who are faux and only capitalists by name, not by action or creed. They are simply criminals. The real kind. The kind that Obama embraces at his high dollar fundraisers. And the Union thugs who provide the muscle.

A company has no power over you. Only you can decide to give them money or not. Ironically Obama wants to FORCE you to buy private insurance from a government approved (i.e. crony) company. If that survives the supreme court, there's no limit to what the government can force you to buy or who from. And some of you actually prefer this nonsense. So once you've taken the existing wealth and spread it around (with most going into the same 1%'s pocket you say you hate but who are in bed with Obama) where will you get the money the next year? What wealth does government legally create besides printing money and lowering the value of the money we've already earned?

Sadly there's a 50% chance Obama will win re-election. And of the other possibility, a likely chance that his competitor will ALSO be a big government type (Mitt Romney anyone?) who will lead us a bit more slowly down the same destructive path. As usual the status quo will remain.

Instead, we COULD have a balanced budged amendment, a flat tax so the tax code isn't a cheater haven any more, and a return to sound Constitutional practices, the one that all Fed politicians swore to up hold (not circumvent) and one that can be legally changed anytime with a vote following well established guidelines. That compared to destroy the entire system with the Occupy people. Seems an easy choice to me.

Brian

Wow

I agree 100%.

And now we are seeing that pure capitalism is about to join that club.

Don't get me wrong - I believe capitalism is better than socialism. But uncontrolled capitalism is inherently unstable, imo. It has to be regulated by a government that can be thrown out in any given election. In other words, we need checks and balances between public and private sectors just as we need them within just the public sector.

Sadly, government has been bought by the very people it should be regulating. And, sure, politicians are at fault and should be held accountable. But blaming them without blaming their funders is akin to arresting the hooker while giving a pass to the john.

Scott

Well Damn,
I understand all of this except the Greek Part. It's all Greek to me. Well maybe not, Greece is in the News. is it not?
Um, Gary. Your Conspericy Theory's would make a good Movie, maybe, but you give people too much credit. Believe me, nobody is that smart!

The S&L's collapsed because the people that had money in them were un happy because other people were making money, Hand Over Fist, (Big Dumb Mistake) and they weren't. So They convinced President Reagan to allow them to be De-regulated and he signed the bill.

The Housing mess was another Example of people, yes that's right people complaining to the government that they couldn't qualify for a housing loan. SOOO, our estemed liberal friends forced the banks to make loans to those people, and guess what!, it failed. Now Fannie and Freddy are Billions in debt, but you!, the tax payer are going to foot the bill. Who Controls the World, Are you kidding me???

So Capitalism is the best thing since sliced bread and socialism is evil....Well the proof of the pudding......etc
Europe and the States is on its ass thanks to Capitalism and its greed and stupidity for getting us all into this mess. The right wing measures have not and are not working in fact the austerity measures taken are actually making things worse....Greece is bankrupt and so by the looks of things are Italy and Portugal plus maybe a few other countries they will drag down with them......
To think that we have any say whatsoever in these matters or a democracy is laughable.......politicians never put into practice what they preach.. and once elected they never consult us...they promise but never deliver..and when one makes a pigs ear of things we vote them out and elect another who is just the same or even worse.
Maybe it is time for socialism and community ownership....it cannot be any worse......I predict that there will be revolutions in some countries and the dreaded socialists will take control......redistribution of wealth is what is needed....simply because with capitalism the sums can never add up....one mans profit is another mans loss.

Well,
You could knock me down with a Feather! I thought Greece was in trouble because people wanted to retire early and live on their ASS-sets. I wonder who is minding the store? Maybe there is no store no more. Who is filling those shelves?

Europe's SOCIALIST policies and nanny state/welfare haven and their own open border multiculturalism is destroying Europe. The "capitalism" you are condemning isn't capitalism, it's CRIME! It would be like having a baseball team cheat and win the world series and then condemning ALL baseball teams including those who do not cheat. Cheaters and Criminal should be prosecuted, not courted by BOTH parties for campaign money. So sure, get rid of ALL the crony capitalists and all the politicians who are in bed with them. Start with Obama and his buddy Imelt from GE who manipulated tax codes and hid money away to pay NO taxes... also Google who paid single digit taxes with all the money they made. Shut THEM both down. And please take out any Republicans doing the same thing (again... Romney anyone?). Enforce the laws that exist NOW and most of this would get cleaned up. These NEW laws passed mostly PROTECT the large firms and banks and kill the local and regional firms and banks with so much costly paperwork they go out of business leaving the cheaters alone entirely.

People who work hard and create something that people want to pay for voluntarily with their own money should be left alone. No more bailouts or govt. intervention. GM should have been broken up and sold off to make room for others to fill that need BETTER. Local and regional banks should be allowed to work honestly without the government targeting them with useless bills and rules meant to kill them off to help their donor cronies get richer. The local grocer should be allowed to sell food and build a reputation for having safe products to keep his business.

Capitalism rewards hard work and innovation. People have come from the lowest rungs of society and made something of themselves. Government needs to protect them from criminals, not stand in their way.

Brian

Europe is no more 'socialist' than the US or any other market based economy. It's just another way of organising capitalism.

The principle of welfare is, in any case, a liberal democratic reaction to the threat of socialism. Open borders and multiculturism are the means by which Europeans seek to prevent war and mayhem and promote freedom of movement of people and...capital.

It seems a very curious thing, this 'capitalism'- it is the solution to all the world's ills, but only if the conditions are right and it's done just the way one or other person prescibes - in the wrong hands it's evil and destructive. What does this tell us I wonder - that some people are good and some are bad?

There is no morality in economics. Adam Smith might have thought so, but he died a long time ago and his ideas have been somewhat superceded by the reality of modern commercial life, namely that Capital rewards the winner solely , not those taking part. Effort guarantees nothing. Hard work guarantees nothing. You are honestly mistaken if you think that there is some mystical pure form of unblemished capitalism that would work if only all the various bad folks would leave it alone. Just read the list of bad guys - the left, the right, europeans, big business, vested interests, welfare liberals - well that's quite a number of suspects to be going on with! Does everyone have to stop what they're doing now and adopt some local co-operative form of exchange and production and distribution?

Why anyone who isn't rich defends capital is beyond me. It's not analogous to freedom - it is a form of slavery for almost everyone involved.

Dan

Wow, I never thought I'd unleash this passionate discussion

Who "really" controls the world was an unfair question because the real world is a far too complicated reality for such a simple question.

Ultimately, government, economic situation, corporations, etc only matter to an individual in impact, so that you can live your live by choice largely avoiding all these controlling influences and using to advantage those you can take advantage of, opportunists and creative scavengers that we are.

And the study I cited was insightful in the inter relationships it found.

I guess I placed it a financial institutions ranking because financial capital is deployed according to decisions made by boards of directors

Individual shareholders are powerless really. You can sell your shareholdings as a protest and if you are passionate enough you can attend an annual meeting and verbally challenge decisions mande by the board of directors

But the decision influence and control to allocate capital and resources that affect the reality of the world is important power to yield and the interelationships of boards is therefore also important

As far as that automatically leading to conspiracies and collusions to somehow act against the public good, that much be so but not in all cases.

The degree to which it does and how is quis sais?

As far as who really controls the world and the far more complicated reality for such a question, reality is interestingly enough a fleeting moment in time after which it becomes a memory to those who co experienced it.

Because we can communicate, co experience means the history of its existence can be handed down so the the details of the circumstance, time and place can be handed down in various ways through institutional beliefs and condigned power accorded through historical existance.

The ability to influence circumstance time and place rests on the power to do so, therefore it is good government and corporate strategy to know who yields the power to control economic investment and the direction of an economy, where reality is going.

As to how it is going, it is most certainly via a mix of politics and political power and its control over geography and the strategic advantages located within their borders, corporations, religion and its institutions, corporations, and the various lobbies .

And of course particularly talented and gifted and insightful individuals who arise into the public eye and capture collective admiration and inspire others onto better things however measured.

So who really controls the world? I guess it can best be said that it depends on the circumstance, time and place presented

It can only be decided on a case by case basis. By what virtue is control over the circumstance time and place exercised and what effect does it have on others and on you?

It will definitely be described and dramatized and skewed by some, generally agreed to be caused by some mix of government, corporate and institutional people whose decisison was flawed or favourable, depending on your side of the result.

Dan said "Why anyone who isn't rich defends capitalism is beyond me. It's not analogous to freedom - it is a form of slavery for almost everyone involved."
My sentiments exactly.....Capitalism is by definition the privileged few who have power and wealth controlling the many who do not.....sadly the many slaves who support this obscenity are too gullible and stupid to realise it.
How anyone can support a system that lets people starve to death whilst others accrue more wealth than they can spend beats me.
Just for the records I am an atheist but I agree with a lot of the bibles teachings...love thy neighbour...turn the other cheek.....thou shalt not etc......etc etc. What really Psss me off is that some capitalists profess to be Christians......how can that be so when Jesus was a socialist and capitalism breaks all his rules about pacifism, sharing wealth and looking after folk who are less fortunate?

Aw Well,
To be sure there is no perfect system. Socalisim has been tried and has failed miserably where ever it has bees tried. Some of the last Bastions of Socalisim are North Korea, and Cuba. Cuba is now allowing some to actually own property. Only Cubans but a step towards free enterprise. North Korea needs the West to send food because of their failing system. The Soviet Union broke up some time ago and has moved towards free enterprise. But, that other Bastion of Socalisim, Greece, along with other countries, Italy, Portugal, and I think Ireland has been mentioned are also failing.

In the Soviet Union the State always wanted the workers to produce more. The Workers said, Why should we? If we produce more today the State will want us to produce more from now on. With nothing to look forward to but more misery why produce more. It has been reported that people stood in lines for hours to buy neccessities only to have nothing because there wasn't enough supplies.

Today in most if not all Western Societies if you go to the store for something there is about a 100 percent chance you will have it, in abundance, on the shelves. You could say, that is Capitalisim at work. Even tho Capitalisim isn't a form of Government. The Free Enterprise system has worked very well and in spite of those "Idiots" protesting on Wall Street none of them want to replace it with Socalisim. Sooner or later they will come to their senses.

Bad examples as they were not true Socialist countries and were probably more corruptly run than even some Capitalist countries....but just to throw it back...you think capitalism or free enterprise (same thing) is working? It neither works in theory or practice......millions of starving people will tell you that. Where there is inequality there are losers............and capitalism stands for inequality with a capital I.....OK in SOME capitalist countries the shelves are full BUT in other capitalist most folks are too poor to even have shelves....you have to control greedy people not let them run the country. Do not quote

Bad examples as they were not true Socialist countries and were probably more corruptly run than even some Capitalist countries....but just to throw it back...you think capitalism or free enterprise (same thing) is working? It neither works in theory or practice......millions of starving people will tell you that. Where there is inequality there are a few winners but many more losers............and capitalism stands for inequality with a capital I.....OK in SOME capitalist countries the shelves are full BUT in other capitalist states most folks are too poor to even have shelves....you have to control greedy people not let them run the country. Do not quote Russia or Korea etc as examples...why not quote some of the Arab countries or Asian Countries or African countries where capitalism is certainly not working where the folks cannot even vote or have any democracy to speak about and life is cheap....if they complain they just simply disappear.

Aw yes Feeble one,
It is Greed that fills those shelves! Surly you don't think Liberal, Socalist, wannabees fill those shelves do you. And Dammit, all those Woodstock "Hippies" now are dirty greedy Capitialists! There is no damn purity anymore! They sold out!

When are you going to catch on feeble one. If you want to cut down a tree you have to swing the Axe. You can't just phone it in. So, in what Capatilisit Country are the sheleves bare? Uh sorry. Free Enterprise.

Sorry Ray I gave you more credit than you deserve.....Try any number of third world, S. American, Asian or African countries where parentless kids roam the streets and search dump sites for food........whilst the shelves in your country may be full...there are many who cannot buy much from them.....take a stroll through some ghettos to get a taste of life on the other side of the tracks....it will educate you....a lot of these people are hard working and have all the attributes you deem to hold sacred they just do not earn much or cannot get a job...all thanks to capitalism. Try watching TV and see how the Arab princes live then see the people in the mudbrick huts with no electricity or running water....all thanks to capitalism.
Whilst you may pretend that everything is rosy in your right wing middle class Christian world.....I know different and so do millions more.

Folks,
I am sorry. I have been way too hard on Big Jim. You see, when the Pilgrims came to the New World they didn't have a big social welfare system to take care of them. If they wanted to make it, they had to do it themselves. So they worked hard, took care of each other, when needed and built maybe the best country in the History of Mankind. Today not only do we take care or ourselves but send money and Aid to much of the World. And what do we get for our troubles? Blasted by many in the United Nations on a regular basis. Some even say we don't send enough! And how do we do this? Free Enterprise! And we do have Welfare and Charities that do plenty for the down and out. Even so, some can't see the Forest for the Trees even here and complain that we aren't giving enough to the masses. No one here goes without. And it all happened because of the Free Enterprise System! I don't need no credit, oh great one. My work speaks for it's self.

"Today not only do we take care or ourselves but send money and Aid to much of the World. And what do we get for our troubles? Blasted by many in the United Nations on a regular basis. Some even say we don't send enough!" - Ray

Yep, the USA are chumps (tenderhearted as they are). Time to get a little backbone and cold-blooded common sense.

Just heard on the news a couple nights ago that we supply 1/3 of Pakistan's military budget. Huh, you're kidding me. They hate our guts. Our military will probably be facing-off with them someday. We even give aid to North Korea. I can only guess how N.K. is using that windfall.

As far as capitalism? It's never been given a chance (not laissez-faire capitalism). It's always been a mixed bag of political philosophies. Corporations? Government has turned many of them into criminals (or parasites).

After hearing this on the news last night; "Connecticut Officials Push Washington to Offer Free Diapers to Poor Mothers", I don't have a lot of confidence of any good changes taking place in the good-old USA.

I'm sure I'll be sorry I entered this debate.

John

Ray Thanks for the potted history lesson...was it deliberate that you missed out on the important points?.......
1. Your country and its wealth was built on slavery
2. It still exists albeit in a watered down way
3. Equality only exists for those who can afford it.
4. The handouts you keep bleating on about are more political than aid and a drop in the ocean compared to the stored wealth your richest citizens own and do not reach the people who need them....oh and most important the people who Really need them do so because of the unfairness and greediness of capitalism.....these people who live in poverty unknown to you and me try to make ends meet and get of their butts to help themselves but are prevented by a corrupt capitalist society who pay unfair wages and make too much profit.