JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum so who really controls the world??

I think this tells a slightly different story and from all my research it is what happened. It is also what is Happening right here in the good old USA. And I don't think I'd consider the New Democratic party of Greece very right wing. They seem more like the RINO's of American politics.

http://www.frumforum.com/how-greece-got-here

Greece�s fiscal problems did not start with adoption of the Euro in 2001. They started 30 years earlier with the Socialist government of Andreas Papandreou who began building an unsustainable civil service, with benefits that liberals in America can only dream of.

This required borrowing back then as well. Papandreou kept winning elections by putting more and more Greeks on the payroll and abused power for personal benefit (he and his cabinet made lots of money manipulating Greek banks). He changed the culture for a new generation of entitled young Greeks, leading by example that it is OK to not work hard, retire at 50, leave the wife and hang out with the mistress in public. When the right-wing finally took over, (Konstantinos Mitsotakis and later Kostas Karamanlis), they played the same game � spend, spend � and did not collect taxes.

In fact, the very few that actually get audited for income taxes in Greece are civil servants. The reason: the government does not go after Greeks who evade paying their income taxes, which is a surprisingly large number of Greeks. If the Greek government actually collected what was due, they would triple their tax revenues. As for the tough measures, remember, it is only civil servants and pensioners that are affected and demonstrating. The majority of Greeks are not in the streets and they have a standard of living that the average American would be jealous of. Most Greeks families own their own home, free and clear of any mortgage.

And finally, the violence on the street is exaggerated. Greeks like to complain and demonstrate (strike). The three people who died in the rioting were victims of a fire, not intentional killings.

Well, it might have started 30 years ago, I believe you're right, but the right-wing government had two mandates, lasting altogether 10 years to change the course of it if they thought Papandreou had conceived the system that is going to collapse, but what they did is they actually took the benefits of that system without solving the obvious mistakes in it and continued on borrowing and spending money like a drunken millionaire, and when it was more or less impossible to save the country's economy they actually almost deliberately lost elections and left the social democrats with no power to solve it, with emptied treasury, cash seeking creditors and enraged masses of people on the streets.
Here in Croatia we have the similar problem now, ex right-wing prime minister is on court for corruption scandals, money laundering and financing political campaigns with dirty money, the country's economy is collapsing and when the elections happen next month the government will most likely change. The right-wing government is reluctant to step away, 'cause they borrowed so much money from foreign investors and sold all the main industries and banks to foreigners and there's no money left, and when the social democrats come to power they'll be facing empty treasury and angry people with no time to wait for better tomorrow...

The downfall of capitalism started with FDR and The New Deal. Ever since, socialistic ideas have infiltrated capitalism.

John

I was speaking more about steady state conditions. Once the revolution is over, the smart, educated, aggressive people will rise to the top of whatever system they put in place and the less intelligent, or less educated, or lazy people will sink to the bottom. The ones at the bottom will blame the ones at the top for their ills no matter whether they are socialist, capitalist, communist, or something else, because they won't accept responsibility for their situation. The "I dropped out of school in the seventh grade, never held a real job, and now the man will not give me free medical care" mentality.

Well, if you believe what the Bible says, Satan is running this world.

I was going to post the same thing, Dan. But I decided to leave the argument to political discourse rather than bring religion into it as well. I do agree with you though.

Stevie

Wrong !

My wife runs the world.

cheers, niteshift

Hey Nite,

I was wondering who was really to blame for all the pain and suffering in my world. Now I know. It's your wife. Who would have thunk it?

Stevie

It always surprises me and I don't know why, I should be used to it, when the Left talks about these issues.
Here we have a situation in Greece created by left wing liberal ideology (can you say FDR) that went on for thirty years. Then the right wing got voted in and continued the same policies for 8 years. If you can call them right wingers. I seriously doubt it.
Now it's all the fault of the right wingers. It's as if the Prior thirty years of corruption, Cronyism, and liberal ideology never existed. The right screwed it up so bad the new lefties won't be able to fix it so it must be all the right wingers fault.
Corruption, cronyism, and pandering to the masses are not unique to right wingers. Lefties are just as bad. A corrupt politician is corrupt no matter what his party affiliation.

The people seem to be just as much to blame for Greece's mess as the Government. The Masses being talked about who are rioting in the streets are the ones who caused the mess. Most of them appear to be on the Government payroll, don't pay taxes, want to retire at 50 years old, want free health care, on and on and on.
They are running the country into the ground and all they can do is blame it on the right wing Politicians. They are protesting because the Government is going to make them work 40 hours a week. The banks are open an average 32 hours a week.
I know people here who wish they only had to work 40 hours a week.
They have people living in high dollar houses driving Porsche's claiming they only make $13,000.00 a year so they don't pay any taxes. There's no Real Estate tax.

I think someone needs to take some personal responsibility. Much like the "occupiers" here. And America is in the same boat. We have Public workers here who can retire with 20 years in. Great pensions, great health care, and earn nearly double what the private sector gets for doing the same job.

Bill is right...what spoils everything is not left or even right wing ....it is greed and corruption......where I disagree is the assumption that if a thing is right wing it must be better than left wing.
Right wing by its very nature in dividing things up into very unequal slices with the rich getting even richer at the expense of the poor cannot and never will be the way forward. Another myth is to think that the private sector is better and more efficient than the public sector.....a bad manager is a bad manager whether public or private.... the fact that in the private sector greedy shareholders skim off the top makes it mathematically impossible for capitalism to be as efficient as the equivalent public sector enterprise.
In my country we have seen many former nationalised industries and services privatised..... the results are all the same..... lower standards and no public accountability, a cut in pay and conditions for employees and a poorer service at a far higher cost for consumers. Meanwhile the fat cats who own these companies are lining their pockets hand over fist.
For the folks who still are under the misappprehension that capitalism is a fair and proper system.......just look back a hundred years or so when little kids were sent down mines and up chimneys...there was no unions, health and safety rules, or health care, or social welfare protecting the old and vulnerable....you worked till you died for a pittance and you died much younger. Nowadays we take all these welfare things for granted but forget it was socialists and the unions who fought and died for these rights....If the capitalists had their way we would be back to those bad old days in an instant.

Because it was doing really well up to that point...or was the Wall Street Crash caused by Bolsheviks?

Dan

Maybe we should try theocracy.It's coming soon.

Actually, the reason that the rich are getting richer and the poor are not is free trade.

The scenario was that a company in the USA or Europe (probably down under too) made a product in their respective country and employed local people to perform the work. The cost of employing the locals continually increased due to unions, productivity, health and welfare, etc. etc., but all the competition was in the same boat so it did not really matter. Everyone did OK.

And then free trade became acceptable and the owners of the companies discovered that they could operate their business in the same way but send the work offshore to where the labor costs including all the benefits were lower and the products were as good or better in most cases. So the companies became more profitable, the consumers could buy the products for less, and everyone was happy until jobs began disappearing.

So the middle and working classes in the USA and Europe are now scrambling for the remaining crummy jobs, but the companies and their owners are doing fine.

Free trade ultimately would bring about a world where people in the USA and Europe would have wages and benefits equal to people in China, Indonesia, and the communist countries. As costs increase in Japan for instance, the work simply moves to the next low cost country. The bad news is that as the Chinese become more wealthy, the US and European people become less wealthy until they meet in the middle. There are a lot of low cost countries that have not been tapped yet so it will be a long time before this system reaches equilibrium. Meanwhile, the working class in the West become relatively poorer and fight for jobs at McDonalds paying minimum wage instead of making good wages at a steel mill.

The only way to stop this decline is to increase the cost of imports by adding duty to products and services entering the USA and Europe from low cost countries. Otherwise the company owners and management will continue to do fine while their former working class employees will do worse and worse.

There is one other theory that states that the Western workers will innovate and create new jobs and products to fill the void. This does happen to some degree but uneducated people do not have much of a chance in that environment. Unfortunately, we are being outgunned by the poorer countries in education which means that they will be the ones innovating too.

Note that our governments are the only entities that can do anything about this. If an individual company attempted to employ only locals at high labor costs, they would soon be put out of business by their competitors.

Hey I am watching OccupyOakland on uStream's front page: http://www.ustream.tv/ as the camp is about to be cleared. I can't really feel a connection to the protesters and I feel bad for the police folks.

Colin there is accuracy in what you say but the conclusion is illogical.....it is the very same capitalist idealogy in those cheap foreign countries and from our own companies operating there that forces foreign workers to accept poorer pay and conditions......so maybe we should all take a huge cut in pay and conditions and bring opurselves down to their level just to keep our own economy going?....it will never happen..... just like companies will never pay a fair price for a fair days work when they can get it done cheaper using foreign sweat shops....the world nowadays is a small place.....the only way is for workers in those deprived countries to fight through unions and industrial action to bring their standards up to ours...so we are all on a level playing field....that will probably never happen either because of the greed and power of capitalism and the unfair divide and conquer mentality.
Kevin at least those protestors are getting off their butt to try to do something about the injustice and unfairness of capitalism....when most folk apathetically just accept inequality and slavery.

Maybe they are protesting the unfairness of capitalism and maybe they are not. There are probably as many reasons for being there as there are people. Some are definitely there to "protest", but a lot are there because it is just somewhere to be. ... and there are some that just want to bring about trouble.

Kevin

Aw Gee,
So who controls the World? Do any of you actually exist or is it only me? How do I actually know any of you actually exist? If you don'r exist why am I haveing this argument/discussion with myself? Who in the world would invent so and so? Maybe i'm punishing myself to amuse myself. Lord knows I must be good at it for all the things on this thread.

OK. I have decided you all do exist. Whew! Glad I solved that problem! After all why should I take all the blame.

Now. What is a Capititalist? I think it is an enitity that has Capital to lend Entropuors that want to build a business for profit etc. Some people actually build Non Profit Businesses. They didn't plan it that way, that's just the way it turned out. Excuse my spelling.

To some, Free Enterprise is a dirty word. Anyone that goes into Free Enterprise is Corrupt and cannot be trusted. They are all Crooks. So some people want to turn it all over to the Government. However the Government is Incomptant. So, you have Corruption versus Incomptant. Excuse my spelling. So, if you are an honest bloke, extermely rare, you are between a Rock and a Hard Place. So, either you join the Rat Race or get run over. Some Choice. Now, what was the question again?

I think Colin's analysis is dead-on accurate, Big Jim. In fact, the first point of yours I quoated above IS happening right now - in the U.S. anyway.

I actually think the second point of yours I quoted will happen as well. People are people......

As a result, in the shorter term, we will do a bit worse and underdeveloped countries will do a bit better - until we meet in the middle. Eventually, everyone will begin doing better - but not in our lifetimes - and not even our grandchildren's.

Globalization was a real Pandora's box - I'm afraid it can't be shut now. Young folks have to be made aware that they are not competing against their classmates - they are competing against that kid in Asia who does three hours of homework every night.

It makes me sad to say that - as I don't think of myself as a pessimist. But we aren't doing them any favors by not telling them the truth.

Scott

Did anyone see CBS 60 Minutes last night? The congress is corrupt with immunity by the very laws they pass. One congressmen who had the decency to get out is interviewed and explains how congress exempted themselves from "inside trading" crimes. A congressman can sit on a committee that is deciding a particular issue and then can call his broker and buy or sell stock based on the information gathered in the committee.

A Stanford professor and a team of students studied the financial habits of congressmen and discovered widespread abuse and profiting using insider information that would put any other group in jail. It's shameful and disgusting. Not surprisingly, a bill to end the exemption couldn't get any traction.

Every elected congressman should have all his finances put in trust so that he is not allowed to trade while in office. He should be prohibited from EVER working for a Lobby. His pension should not be anymore generous than the military pension. He should not get health care for life, but only for as long as he is a congressman.

The congress is a rotten institution- designed by and for congressmen. It has been going on for years and both parties are corrupted by it. As the former congressman said, "It is so easy to cash in as a congressman, you begin to feel like an idiot not to do it".

I agree 100%! They're despicable!!!

John

Do not get me wrong.... I am an idealist...but we all know idealism never works......the basic greed and competitive nature of mankind goes against the principle. In the real world corruption and greed exists in all walks of life.....that said it is up to us ALL as a society to prevent these things from happening.....or at least curb the worst offenders..well.... as much as we can. We need strong ethical governments who will bring out legislation to put a stop to the abhorrent practices that go on by companies and politicians alike.....and of course that legislation needs to be policed and enforced. There is nothing wrong with companies making a profit and most companies are OK per se......but some abuse their power and the public consumer, also the system and of course their own employees...however if they want to stay in business they must start to operate legally and ethically...they must not make too much profit and pay decent wages and provide good working conditions....they must also pay their taxes like everybody else.....nobody likes to pay tax but if it is fair and we see that OUR money is used efficiently, for the purposes it is meant for, I am sure we will all pay our tax bill without the usual complaints.....politicians and business must be accountable and transparent in their actions.......sadly at the moment that is certainly not the case.
Scott.... whilst I see where you are coming from we have no idea just how poor some of those people are in foreign countries and just how little they get paid in comparison to ourselves. The average wage in India ( a capitalist country last time I looked ) is $1000 a year......that is probably the reason why I always seem to get a Mumbai call centre when I phone about my cable tv or broadband bill. I suspect that in the USA $1000 is pretty much the average wage per week...... Most Asian countries have average wages even lower than India....In the Phillipines most people earn less in a couple of years than Americans do in a month.
Now before we get too pessimistic..... there is enough money in the world to go around...there is enough work to go around.......it just needs to be spread more evenly.

Jim,

I don't doubt that what you say is correct but what you are ignoring is the time element. There was a time in my parents' or at least grandparents' lifetimes when people in the USA or the UK were just as poor as those Asians you describe. The industrial revolution occurred and people went to work making products that increased the wealth throughout Western society. Now, a hundred years later, most of us Westerners live relatively comfortably and have what we need.

Asia and Africa are just now starting their climb out of poverty and beginning to benefit from the industrial revolution. We had to learn a lot of hard lessons and are now benefiting from the experiences of our parents. The Asians and Africans are going to have to travel that same road or they will not appreciate or be able to manage their new found wealth. It may not take another 100 years, but it will not change overnight. When we attempt to give them stuff for free as is done by the Peace Corps for instance, it usually falls into disrepair within a short time because they do not have the wherewithal to maintain and operate it. Of course, those who get jobs in US owned factories are paid many times what their brothers and sisters are paid (even though it seems like peanuts to us), and they become motivated to move into the 21st Century.

I agree completely!

The main problem of this civilization is not created by poor people who are struggling to survive and who are worried about their future, so, therefore, are now demonstrating around the Globe in trying to secure their bare existence. It's created by not more then a 100 people who own 90% of this planet's riches, by their greed and by the fact that it's designed strictly and only for their purposes. In order to survive as a species we have to redesign the system, so it would work well for both sides of the equation, there's 7 billion of us here and each one deserves a fair chance!

Colin I am not forgetting....in fact exactly the opposite I am drawing peoples attention to how things were before.......as I stated earlier it was only through workers uniting and forming unions etc that we enjoy the freedoms we have today.....had it not been for those pioneers of the union movement and their pain and sacrifice we would still be like our poor cousins in third world countries.....that said we are still slaves to the system and do not have ANY power or any say in the way we are controlled..... we think we have but that is delusional. We have a ways to go to think we have freedom. People have short memories....we have to make sure we never let the nasties impose their ways...cause they would return us to those days in a flash if they could get away with it....meanwhile we must strice to shorten the gap between rich and poor...WORLDWIDE.

Jim
I just do not understand your insistence the Unions are the answer to our problem. I don't know about the UK but the Unions have just about destroyed our economy.
I agree the Unions were a great force in improving working conditions and getting a fair wage but they got Greedy. Very Greedy. I was a Union worker. And we made a lot of money. A lot. We also spent a lot of time in the local Pub during working hours. But we were protected. We were in the Union.

American companies cannot compete in the global market if they use the American work force. They go bankrupt. That's why the Unions are becoming smaller and smaller. Their jobs are gone.

When Asia started manufacturing products to sell to the American market it took about twenty years for American companies to start to fail. They could not compete. It had nothing to do with Greedy corporate profiteers. The American worker priced themselves out of a job. On top of that they made inferior products. I remember when you were lucky to get a car paid off before it either fell apart or rusted out from under you. Along came the Honda Civic. It ran for twice as long and didn't rust out. At first people laughed at it but it didn't take long for the consumer to start realizing they were getting a better product for a lot less money.
You can blame that on the corporations all you want but the fact is the American worker who won't work for less than the $22.00 an hour the average factory worker makes has been replaced by a Chinese worker who is happy to make $2.75 per hour.

Everyone can't work for the Government. It takes Private sector profits and Taxes to support the Public job sector. Take a look at Greece. That's what happens when everyone works for the government. No one is left to pay taxes.

That doesn't mean the conditions in China are great. They probably are not. But I have seen videos of their work force and working environment and it doesn't look so bad. People in America are spoiled. Our Kids are spoiled. Scott made some points in his post that are right on. And these Kids better wake up and smell the coffee because when my Generation is gone and they don't have us to fall back on they are gonna be in big trouble.

Bill do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.......greed and corruption are our downfall.....Unions got greedy and stupid.....but this pales into insignificance compared to the real greed from the companies who made too much profit paid poor wages and refused to listen to reasonable requests from the Unions.
I think you are a bit one sided and one dimensional in your argument...we did not price ourselves out of the market......other countries allowed their workers to accept poorer conditions than we would allow....and of course the multi national companies relocated and rubbed their hands with glee.......totally unethical behaviour......
I do know the bad working conditions some countries have and it is a throw back to the pre Victorian age where life is cheap and nobody cares.....you get sick you die...but no worries cause someone else will jump into your place....these are the very conditions our forefathers fought to eradicate....do not blame the unions...when it is the greedy companies with no loyalty or ethics who are responsible.....they will move and relocate to anywhere if it is cheaper to make a buck and have no qualms about employing young kids to work in a dangerous environment where health and safety take a back seat....and peanuts is the average wage.
I do not know about public services in your country but in mine it is the tax taken from everybody who provides funds for our health and social security budget....the private sector when they can be botherd to pay tax are only contributing their share...they use the public services just the same as everyone else....and get a pretty good deal......We are taxed on what we earn as we earn it and then again we are taxed on what we spend as we spend unlike the rich who employ clever tax consultants to avoid paying anything altogether.....we have no way of avoiding tax...unlike the huge companies who make billions in profits yet pay little or no tax.

As I said. All Business is Crooked and all Government is Incompetent. So take your pick. Right now, over here, Government is screwing Big Business. Big Business isn't hiring, so who is Big Business screwing? I'll give you 3 Guesses. The first 2 don't count.

Jim
I don't think I am one sided on this at all.
What you see as Corporate Greed I see as Business survival.
Any Company in America that wants to survive must be competitive in its pricing. In the environment we are currently in it is nearly impossible. Between Government over regulation and Labor costs I don't see how any company could survive in this market.

I'll give you an example of Government over regulation.
I was a small independent contractor. I did a lot of work building Garages for a local residential builder.
We were building a garage on a residence in Kalamazoo. We don't have electricity on our jobs so I had a Generator. The Generator has Circuit breakers on it so they would trip if there was an electrical short. We were doing the roof that day. It was hot and sunny. We usually wear soft soul shoes on the roofs so we don't tear up the shingles when the weather is that hot. We also don't worry about Bathroom facilities because it really isn't an issue for us.
The USA has a regulatory agency called OSHA. It has to do with on the job safety and other matters.
In 30 years doing residential work I had NEVER seen an OSHA officer stop at a job.
That day I did. He cited me for my brother wearing sneakers on the roof instead of work boots.
He cited me for us not wearing a hard hat. We were on the roof.
It was a 4/12 pitch roof 8 feet above the ground. We could easily walk the roof. He cited me for not having safety ropes on the roof.
He looked at my Generator and cited me for not having a GFI circuit breaker on the Generator. The generator has an OSHA and underwriters approval sticker on it.
He sited me for not having portable toilets on the job.

Every one of these were personal choice items. What right does ANY government agency have to tell me what I have to wear when I work or where and when I can go to the toilet. If I want to risk falling off the roof that's my business. If the Government wants GFI breakers on generator then have them built in.

In all the fines were almost $500.00. That was almost my entire Profit on the job.

That is why Companies leave America. It's not greed it is survival

Bill I have a story which illustrates the opposite side of the coin...
My son used to be an apprentice glazier......the crook he worked for is now in prison.....he did not pay insurance or tax for any of his employees...yet deducted it from their pay and pocketed it...he did not obey any health and safety regulations and was an accident waiting to happen...it did.... my sons pal, he was early twenties at the time, fell through an asbestos roof onto a concrete floor...my son thought he was a goner but he narrowly avoided death...he had horrific injuries which took years to get over...he still walks with a limp....none of the safety regs which we have by law were enforced....no crawl boards no hard hat no safety harness or ropes etc etc etc the list went on and on.
Whilst you as an individual think you have the right to disobey safety regs......they are put there for a very good reason....to stop these kind of accidents happening...just common sense.
OK the guy who cited you may have been over zealous...but by negligence and not obeying safety precautions you could have been dead or seriously injured.
No company should be able to take shortcuts by disobeying health and safety regs....no matter how silly they seem....you simply cannot do what you like and put lives at risk.
I am of the opinion that companies do unethical things even during boom times......so the point about leaving America because of bad regs and too high wages or the need for survival is lame....
Companies have a habit of passing off extra costs onto the consumer...but CONVENIENTLY forgetting to lower these when costs come down......
When oil prices go up the petrol pump prices immediately rise.....when the oil cost comes back down the pump prices stay the same....so they can make even more profit.
I once read a book called The Seven Sisters...it was about the seven oil companies who between them owned the monopoly on oil.....strangely all of a sudden each company put prices sky high whereas they had battled with each other on price....it seems that all the CEOs were on a golf holiday at Gleneagles in Scotland.....they did not play golf but mad a pact to maximize profit....so much for fair trade and a free competetive market....you may want to read it it is very educational.
http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Sisters-Great-Companies-Shaped/dp/0553242377

Jim
You are talking about a crook who went to prison. I'm talking about the average hard working small business owner that can barely survive in an over regulated market. And yes common sense prevails.
I am sure the over zealous agent continued on his merry over zealous way to the next unsuspecting working man to hand out his ridiculous fines.
What you describe is price fixing. It is supposed to be illegal. But that is the way of things I guess.

Gone for a year and find out out it hasn't changed a bit around here ;-)
Carry on........

Good to see you Steve.
Who controls the world? Santa Claus.

I Wish.....

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...1_211991868870669_512358_463293875_n.jpg

Hey Ray:

I read recently where the Republicans are now trying to privatize veterans health care. I'm curious as to whether you think that's a good idea.....

Scott

Scott,
Sorry I didn't hear that story. Do you have a link.

Yeah, but you won't like it

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/o...-bad-ideas.html?_r=1&ref=paulkrugman

Turns out I mis-spoke though - it's not Republicans in general - apparently just Mitt Romney. Though he is the front-runner....

Scott

Well Scott,
This story, being in the New York "Daily Worker" by a well known "Unknown" really get's you excited doesn't it? I don't know if Romny said this or not but it will have to come a lot more front and center to give it any real credennce. As you may know, if not, it has been front and center for some time now, the country is about like those Bombers that flew into the Attack on Pearl Harbor, Out of Gas and no Ammounition. Your friend and mine, Obama, has seen to it that the Economy is in a Strait Jacket with little hope of recovery for some time to come. After 17 Commissions, trying to get some Fiscal Sanity back into the Federal Government there is litle hope in getting anything done anytime soon. So if your job dissappears Romny's Statement about Vouchers for Veteran's won't amount to a snowball in hell. But I understand it is Orange Picking season now in Florida. But, Obama says the American pepole have been a bit lazy over the last 2 decades. Maybe it's catching up with us, you think?

LOL - I wouldn't know, Ray - I've been too busy busting my tail over the past two decades to notice

That link is not where I actually first read the column - I originally read it in the newspaper that I have delivered to my door. It's a good paper - it prints editorials by both conservative and liberal columnists. Allows me to maintain a balanced outlook - which I highly recommend.

Scott

Fiscal Responsibility. That is the name of the game. But some people were behind the door when the brains were passed out. Tons of them are in the Occupy Wall Street Group. Isn't it amazing how stupid some people are.

Actually, Ray, what a lot of those folks are advocating IS fiscal responsibility - only on the part of bankers.

As for President Obama's quote? The lazy Americans are those that can't be bothered to read what he actually said before spouting off about it.

Scott

Well,
I don't make the News, I just report the News. After 75 years if Big Social Programs you would think it would be fixed, wouldn't you? So, I have to ask, Wha Hoppen??? You aren't saying Obama didn't say, We have been a little Lazy over the last 2 Decades, are you?

Occasionally President's put their foot in their mouth. This was one of them. Bill Clinton said, We could Give you more of your money, but you would'nt know how to spend it.

Are you a little lazy? Do you know how to spend your money or do you need a Nanny??? Fiscal Responsibility is the duty of Citizens, not the Banks, or the Government, except when Liberal's are in charge. But, people voted for all this, now some of them are waking up, but how many got the message???

Those that fail to learn from History are bound to repeat it.
I don't make the News, I just Report the News.

Here is what he said, Ray:

"You know, we've been a little bit lazy, I think, over the last couple of decades. We've kind of taken for granted, well, people will want to come here, and we aren't out there hungry selling America, and trying to attract new businesses into America."

Anyone with any sense can see who he is talking about - and it ain't the American worker. But hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Scott

We Gee Scott,
He said We. I have heard people say, What do you mean we. You have a turd in your pocket or something? I didn't invent the term. It came out of the east and maybe Vaudville. Jesus Christ, Obama Selling America? Apologising for it is more like it. But with a 15 Trillion Dollar and growing Federal Debt. 9 to 16 percent unemployment, 46 million on food stamps, 15 percent below the poverty level, Millions of Morgages under water and the Inmates in charge of the asylum. Maybe he should apologise. For all the Liberal's that put us in this fix.
And to think, they have been at this for 75 years.

I know we have an Education System in the country. I wonder what happened to all the money they spent on those classes???

I have to laugh at the old-timers who pine for the Gilded Age of the Robber Barons, the Bankers and Industrialists who got rich exploiting American workers in the times before the Great Depression. Of course prior to Franklin Delano Roosevelt - who they would brand as the first anti-Christ (they've had many since) - most Americans lived in grinding poverty and the average lifespan of an American was less than 60 years and only 48 years for black folk. The anti-government types who romanticize American history in support of their law of the jungle ideology are living longer and far more comfortable lives than their forefathers who reaped the whirlwind of the small government philosophy and the harsh whip of unregulated corporations and businessmen who ruled the roost before 1930.

It's no coincidence that America's greatest economic era - the '50s and 60's - came about during the period when unions were strong and the Congress and President were willing to use government to soften the rough edges of crony capitalism by instituting social programs such as unemployment benefits, social security, medicaid and medicare and, by the way, end overt discrimination against black people, women and minorities.

Since 1980 we've seen a steady erosion of government regulation of business and support for social programs and a corresponding growth in the corrupting influence of wealth on politics and business, leading to a financial system that rewards crookedness and allows the wealthiest few Americans to game the tax system and accrue colossal increases in their own personal wealth far out of line with any value they've added to the economy or nation.

According to a study by William Domhoff, Sociology Department of the University of California, Santa Clara, the top 1 percent owned 45 percent of the wealth and the bottom 99 percent owned 55 percent of the wealth in 1929.

By 1975 the top 1 percent's share of the nation's wealth had dropped to 20 percent and the bottom 99 percent's share had risen to 80 percent.

Enter Ronald Reagan and the right wing horde.

By 1981 the top 1 percent's share of the wealth had rebounded to 25 percent and the bottom 99 percent's had dipped to 75 percent.

By 2007 the top 1 percent's share had grown to 35 percent of the nation's wealth and the bottom 99 percent's had fallen to 65 percent! That's an economic landscape nearly as favorable to the 1 percenters as the one they enjoyed just prior to the Great Depression in 1929, when they controlled 45 percent of the nation's wealth and the rest of us only had a 55 percent share.

So I say to to all those old-timers who support the anti-government, anti-tax, pro-business line and pine for the good old days when the rich ruled and the rest of us got screwed over, be patient and don't blame Obama. Just be happy we're almost there.

Humm,
I don't know anyone who is pining for a return to the Gilded Age of the Robber Barons. In fact I doubt if anyone knows what you are talkng about. However it appears we are heading right back there. But you already know all the facts of the fiscal mess the Country is in so I don't have to repeat it.

So tell me. After all the good things our Liberal friends have done, why are in this big mess? Who screwed up??? A lot of people blame someone else for the sorry state of affairs. Who do you blame???

Ray, I thought I made the indictment clear in my post. But I'll give it to you again:

"By 1975 the top 1 percent's share of the nation's wealth had dropped to 20 percent and the bottom 99 percent's share had risen to 80 percent.

Enter Ronald Reagan and the right wing horde."

Humm,
So you are blaming the fiscal fiasco we are in on Reagan. So you think we should pay more taxes or is that only on the so-called rich people. In other words you want a Nanny State.

Why did GM go bust. Was it huge saleries being paid to the Unions or did GM just do the workers wrong. What happened? Is it possible you don't believe in taking responsibility for your life and want someone else to do it for you??? I don't know how being Conservative sent us into a 15 Trillion dollar debt? Reagan and GM did that??? I could care less if some people get rich. They worked for it. Reagan has been gone for 23 years. Why did things get worse since then??? Obama has been in office about 3 years now. Why did unemployment go from 4.5 percent to 9 Percent. It wasn't because of Conservatives.

Ray, The Prosecution rests.

Ray, could you please define "Nanny State" and then tell us how that is in any way related to what Dan said?

Kevin do not worry about Ray...he obviously finds it difficult to understand simple concepts.....you should have seen the difficulty I and others had explaining to him why a bog standard sound card was not much good for music production....I do not think he grasps what we are saying...despite explaining it in simple English and giving links to sites where it was explained both in in depth tech detail and also laymans terminology.
That is the problem with much of the Conservative support....they are too stupid to realise that they are being shafted by capitalists....they mistakingly think that by supporting and ass sucking rich and powerful folk some of the riches will rub off on them......sadly nothing could be further from the truth.