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Sorry to hear about you losing your Mom, John. I'm glad her suffering is over though. I'm glad you made it in time to say goodbye and comfort her in her last moments.

Stevie

John:

So very sorry to hear of your Mom's death. Glad you were able to be with her in her final moments. Please accept my sympathy and best wishes for you and your family.

Dave

I'm sorry you had to go through this John, and I now have a better understanding of why you asked the question.

John
These questions are the same ones I have been struggling with for a long time.
I am sorry to hear you are going through the loss of a parent. But like all things in life it has to be.
I lost my Father, my Stepfather, and my Little Brother in the last few years. Let alone a whole bunch of Uncle, Aunts, Cousins, Nieces, Nephews, etc.
Why it has to be is what I don't understand.
In the 1970's I went through the pain of burying my children. A 6 year old, a 3 month old and one stillbirth.
Why?
The Coroner couldn't even tell us why they died. Sudden Infant Death Syndrome is all we got.

If I get to "Heaven" will they be there? Will they be grown up? Or will I pick up where we left off?
I cannot understand a God that could create this Universe and then let this happen. If it's a test to see if I am worthy that's a really crappy thing to do. I'm not sure if I am willing to give my allegiance to a God that would do that to me.
When I die if I get the chance to stand before "Him" He has some explaining to do. We'll see where it goes from there.
I wasn't much before they died. Didn't really have a whole lot going for me. But the death of my 6 year old did, I believe, long lasting damage to my Phsyche. I believe it affected my ability to function in society in ways that I do not understand.

I read a book once that tried to explain it all. What I came away from it with is God does not interfere with happenings here on Earth. He lets things take their course.

Well then why did he create us in the first place. What are we, toys? He gets to sit up there and watch us crawl around on this miserable rock like ants in a Glass display with nothing to look forward to except death. Then we are supposed to believe he is "there" for us. And we are supposed to enjoy some kind of everlasting peace for eternity?

I have a friend who has always had it good. I'd say "easy" but that wouldn't be correct. He works hard.
He is about my age. He got married about the same time I did. He has 4 kids and a bunch of Grandkids. He is financially secure. Wealthy actually. Everything always seemed to work for him. He is happy in his retirement. His kids are all doing well, College. etc. Even his Grandkids are doing well. Of course he has the money to help them but they really don't seem to need it.
I have tried to understand this. He and I started out about the same. Working stiffs going to work every day and trying to get ahead.

Here I am still wondering about next months mortgage payment, 3 out of 4 of my kids are dead, my one remaining daughter has struggled through her whole life. None of my Grandkids even finished High School and are struggling.
My friend has never been very religious. I don't think he ever goes to church.

Why two such separate paths? I just don't understand it.
Where is God in all this.
Why was he deserving and I was not?
Then I look at my own situation and see people all around the world living in horrible conditions. They would trade their life for mine in an instant. I realize I have actually had it good. Now that's pathetic.

Like I said. This God has some explaining to do.

Thank you guys!

Yeah Bill, that's the dilemma in getting old - seeing more friends and relatives pass away.

John

Hi Bill,

There's a lot of us struggling with questions such as you have. My pastor says "It's all in God's plan". Like you, my life hasn't gone the way I wanted it to. I'm definately not where I wanted to be at 63. There's things I've wanted to do but it never happened the way I wanted it to so I'm still working and struggling to get by.

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of so many in your family especially your children. I've lost family members too. Two of my sisters, one was on Christmas Eve three years ago. Then that sister's youngest daughter passed away this past Thanksgiving day. she was only 44. Sure makes the holidays lousy. Enjoy the family you have left, love on them all you can and make as many good memories as you can. Remember, they were God's children before they were ours. He lent them to us for a certain amount of time. "We'll Understand It All By And By". God bless.

Myrtle
Myrtle

So very sorry about your loss John. We love our moms, mommies, mothers in a very special way. We are at that age where our parents, their siblings, and parent's friends are closer to heaven's door so sadly their passing seems to come far too often.

God Bless,
Lynn

John: I'm sorry for your loss. Loss of someone close leaves a hole in one's life that nothing will ever fill, but we go on for the sake of the others who's lives we fill. Thankfully, there are no 'holes' in the next existence, or we would be encumbered from our tasks there.

Big Jim: If we were in a pub in the "E", I could buy you a pint of Watney's Brown and we could have a nice chat. We could talk music and have a great time. We might become friends, who knows?
History doesn't matter, politics doesn't matter, if smoking bothers you, I won't smoke, we don't do things that offend the other. We become friends.
A problem comes up for you. I'm not the PM, but I do what I can and you for me when I have trouble. I say something that pisses you off, but we get over it because it's the big things that matter in the long run.
God is like that. He wants to be your friend. When you get to know each other better, you'll know what to do and what to avoid. You talk to him when you are alone in your room just as if you were at the pub. Whatever is on your mind. He's the best listener there is. For something to be true, you must act like it is true. You will never find a thing if you don't believe it exists and are not looking for it. I can believe the Fender Guitar is the best because everyone says it is, but to find out if it is the best to me, I must try it. My experience will be unique to me, but then I will know for myself.
Some people fear they will have to give up what they enjoy or that they are not worthy and too flawed. That's not how friendship works. I would hope you would give us a chance to be friends if we met at the pub. Give God a try next time you are alone and have a right ole chat.

Sorry for your loss, John.

Thanks all for your well wishes!

Best, John

Truely John,I am sorry for the loss of your mother,I lost mine not long ago and it leaves a hole in your life that is hard to fill. But I will see her again in Heaven,she was a beliver in Jesus Christ,as I am, we are promised by the Word that we will rise again or be raptured to be with Him,Jesus,on that last day. To those that are being lost,this teaching is foolishness, but to those that believe,it is unto salvation.

My thoughts are with you John,

best, Geoff

Thanks Everett & Geoff.

Best, John

John, I'm sorry to read about the loss of your mother. I pray for you and your family. Jesus felt loss, just as he felt all of our sufferings and temptations. In fact, the shortest verse in the Bible talks about Jesus' loss of his friend Lazarus..."Jesus wept." God understands. We may not, but He does.

God bless you.

Mike

John my thoughts are with you and your family...I have been there same situation.... with both my parents and my younger brother. Although I do not believe in an afterlife or creator I still think that there is a purpose to our lives...that is to make the world a better place and to help our species survive and evolve into something more benevolent and caring than previously existed...I am not too distant from most religious people with my views on good V evil ...execpt for the dogma.....which I have little time for.

What blows my tiny mind is that fact that there is "something" rather than "nothing". That is the first miracle. After that, what can you say? The Universe, maybe Multiverses? Child' play after that one. And are we the most complex things in the Universe? We may possibly be. Certianly something really enormous is going on. We have to call it God because it is just so amazing.

I believe in God and His Son Why are we here and why doesn't God intercede Here is a poem I wrote a while ago that i think says why we are here Thanks Turtle
The meaning of life

The question, what is the meaning of life
Why are we here in this endless strife?
Answer, we are here to love the Creator of all
To enjoy the blessing that He foresaw

God could have made us robots loyal to Him
But He gave us freewill right from the beginning
God could have made us perfect like the Garden of Eden
But He gave us a choice love Him or leave Him

God could have made us Angels with a Heavenly voice
But He made us special He gave us a choice
We could be stars in the sky He controls
But He wanted true love that comes from the soul

We could be just another planet floating through space
But God gave us a conscience that we can’t escape
God wants our love and obedience to Him
The choice He gave was righteousness or sin

God wants our love that He doesn’t control
The reward He gives is our eternal soul
The age old question, why are we here
The answer, to be His loving children that He can hold dear

I believe in fate and that there is something controlling this universe. I don't believe it is God. I mean, the God that everyone describes may be all-powerful, but no one man can control a whole universe. I believe that there is within each of us, a lesser god whose duty it is to follow in the footsteps that fate has predetermined for it.

As for the creation of the universe, I don't understand why we as humans must concern ourselves with such an impossible topic. Or why it even matters. We should just be content that we're alive in the first place. Don't worry about how you got here. Just be.

There is a God, and as the bible says "He who says there is no God is a fool".I didn't say it,the bible said it, but to those that don't believe the bible is the word of God, I guess it doesn't matter.

Sunday is December 25, the day we Celebrate "Christmas" However no one knows the exact day when Jesus Christ was born. As I understand it, that day was sorta decided because the Pagans had that day as the day the sun reached it's lowest point in the sky. The so called myth that Jesus decended into hell was the Pagan knowledge that the Sun seemed to stand still for three days at the beginning of winter before it began to rise again in the sky.

Christmas is a wonderful time of the year when we renew old frendships and maybe exchange some gifts. I always get excited at Christmas time even tho it is all built on many incorrect assumptions. But I am not the only one that has ferreted out the facts of which are all in the Bible somewhere, all you have to do is look! But, Happy Holidays everybody and hope for a great New Year!

We must concern ourselves with it so the government can funnel money to the people working on discovering what actually happened.

Yep...if you don't believe the Bible, oh well. One day you might start believing it though and even if you don't, if the Bible is true (as I believe it is), there will come a day when every knee shall bow and ever tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

I just watched a documentary where archaeological and scientific findings put many of the popular Christian and Jewish myths, beliefs and legends into grave doubt.....including the very existence of Jesus and the stories of David and Moses plus other major Biblical events...at the very least some discoveries from Holy land digs actually contradict statements of so called fact as stated in the Bible. Historically they could not have happened or tie in with known historical records...so if they got these facts wrong what else did they get wrong...but hey I cannot argue against someone whose beliefs are so strong they are prepared to ignore scientific proof...
IMHO I say the opposite to the last few posts........ he who believes the Bible as an accurate book and the word of God is a fool....at least I have evidence to back up my beliefs or lack of them.....I rely on science rather than man made fiction and wishful thinking....but hey in a democracy we are entitled to believe in what we want....just be a bit more open minded before quoting dogma and falling to indoctrination.

Nobody ever fought a war over Santa Claus so I believe in him.

It's a strange thing to read this thread. I see so much of my own evolution of thought through the years here... first, where I believed what I was told, then where I adapted my beliefs to try and paint what I had been told in a kinder light, then having to abandon them all together because they just didn't stand up to logic and reason. I have a Christian friend who tells me that I am saved, because there was a point in my life where I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior. He tells me it doesn't matter that my beliefs have changed... a 'once saved, always saved' kind of rationale. If that were the case, though, why would it matter if I never believed to begin with?

Is God, the Universe, the creator of all, so obsessed with his own ego that he would punish his own creations for eternity for having a different belief than that which comes to us through organized religion? Or for growing up in another culture with another system of beliefs, and simply rejecting a different origin story when it comes our way later in life? If I find myself in hell, will I be in the company of Gandhi, the Buddha, the Dalai Lama, and countless other kind souls who understood truth and compassion in the world in such profound ways, but failed to channel those understandings through something as abstract and prone to interpretation as a belief? Will it only be members of one branch of Christianity who find themselves in Heaven, with others left out for following the wrong doctrine, the wrong leader, the wrong church?

Anyone who has looked at the historical origins of the Bible, and the many ways the modern church has used it to serve their own ends, must also spend time trying to reconcile how the infallible word of God that we take in such a literal sense, has been changed so many times over the years by the hands of men, and often with the intent of using it to control.

I think belief in God is like art. Some of us do the paint by numbers, some of us paint what we see around us, and some of us like abstract and pull in all different colors to create things entirely new. Some of us just don't like art. It all has meaning, it all draws criticism from one side or another. In the end, though, it's all just an expression of our personal experiences and can mean something entirely different to those who view it after we are gone. And it all is trying to grasp something that no one fully understands.

Having said all that, I know I believe in something, and have seen far too much in this life that defies explaination to think this is all there is. If the spirit is eternal, though, this life (and all the goods and bads we commit within it) is surely just a spec of sand in a learning experience... only 'God' knows to what ends. I think we'll see our loved ones again, but I doubt it matters what they believed, and I doubt that there is some kind of afterlife segregation that treats us only as the people we were in life.

Just my two cents.

Very sorry for your loss, John.

Sometimes I imagine God is all of us, and that we are here as a manifestation of God's myriad musings to be experienced in physical form. All the stories, all the love and war, all the striving, all the music... I often hear that God is Everything, and for all I know maybe this is so.

This has been an interesting thread.
As many opinions here as there are in life I reckon.
I don't quite understand folks like Big Jim who want to call folks like Everett a fool because he believes in God. The reason for the animosity escapes me.
On the other hand I don't think believers should be telling the non believers they will rot in hell.
This one's a case of "to each his own" as long as one doesn't hurt the other.

As for me. Hell, I just don't know. I do know I got dealt a pretty crappy hand in life and for whatever reason I wasn't able to turn it around. But that was my failing, not some Deity's.
I really don't think "God" really gives a Sh*t what happens on this miserable rock from one day to the next.
If he requires people to grovel in front of his alter and shed their spiritual blood for him is something I'll never quite grasp. It would be like me insisting my Grandchildren love me and respect me even as I stand on the Bank and watch them drown. The last thing they would hear as they went under would be me saying. Love me and obey me I will save you. Then they would be dead. I wonder what they would be thinking as the water filled their lungs.

I think I'll just wait and see. If there is a God then he can give me a test after he has made Himself known to me and explains my life to me and why it had to be the way it was. I really don't remember doing anything to deserve the lot I received.
On the other hand there was about twenty years where I didn't deserve any better. I was a real jerk.

For those of you who have had a nice life I say good for you. I don't begrudge it at all. Me? I am just putting in my time waiting to die.

For the records I was NOT calling anyone a fool. I was just responding to the statement "anyone who does not believe in God is a fool"
Whilst everyone is entitled to BELIEVE in what they like it is not clever to assume that ones belief is fact and that others should blindly follow what some would say is an illogical preposterous man-made dogma based on pure myth and legend.
There is no proof that anything mentioned in the Bible actually happened......in fact there is some proof that much of the stories are just that..... only stories...... twisted, exaggerated and mistranslated over the centuries.

I find it interesting that you feel compelled to go to so much trouble to disuade those who believe in a Creator from their beliefs, Jim. Atheism is in itself a belief system based on nothing but faith. The atheist cannot disprove the existance of a creator any more than the believer can prove the creator's existance in an empirical sense. You make bombastic statements like "an illogical, preposterous man made dogma based on pure myth and legend." That kind of stance would presume that the atheist had all knowledge as to what exists and how it came to exist in the first place. You also like to make claims that would indicate that science has disproved the existance of a creator. Please humor me with this so called proof. You speak in vague generalities with nothing to back it up other than mere rhetoric.

So...Let's for a moment put aside all religions and concentrate only on the existance or non-existance of a creator. I, as a believer cannot prove God's existance to you in a laboratory any more than you can disprove the same. But we can look at the evidence. So what is your evidence for the claims you make? I'll first let you give your evidence or better yet, your proof that there is no creator. Make your case and since you always cite science in completely vague terms, why not show the scientific evidence to start with with some measure of detail.

This is your youth talking. I brought up the topic with my 18-year-old song a few months ago and he said, "I can't think about that now. Maybe someday but I have too much to do"- Translation: "I want to party, score with chicks, EXPERIENCE life, not think about it." He is very hedonsitc right now- more so than any of our other kids.

I have heard it put: "Man is Nature's way of looking at it self"

This is the only explaination that my mind can accept. God isn't a vindictive judge. He's got to be the Principle Life or LIfe Force. When my Father (Sam) was dying he said to me, "God is closer that the air your breathe". He has abandoned every earthly hope or desire by that time and I got a profound glimpse of a man looking beyond. Now I don't know what is beyond for me. I may simply be "a single drop of rain" but I am confident that Life is continuous. Show me proof otherwise. Has anyone reading these words ever known anything but Life? Life is all there is. Death is an illusion.

Yes, but it's the Greatest Story Ever Told.

Jim, you said you read the bible several times. How could you have read the Gospels and not have gotten the sense that you were reading an eye witness to something extrodinary. I came to the conclusion that the "story" of Christ was huge as a historical phenomenon from studying art history at the University of Oregon. Clearly something very big happened. Stories don't have that kind of sweeping impact on history. You have the opinion of the life of Christ like I have of Joseph Smith and Mormonism. Millions of people believe in the Mormon creed yet it is pretty easy to trace the mythology of it's orgins. Now if you "just know" that the Christ story is myth like I "just know" that Momon beliefs are myths, then I am not going to convince you that the life of Christ is not myth. But keep in mind that the impact on history of the life of Christ has been more significant than, the Founding of America, WW1, WW2, the French revolution, the renaissance, the industrial revolution etc. We ever measure time from the day of his birth. It doesn't matter that the exact year is off. What is significant is that the historical life had, and still has, such influence on our lives 2000 plus years later.

No, I can't buy that Jesus is a myth. Myths give us greek gods and Harry Potter, but they don't change the calendar.

seems to me the quote "seek and you shall find" applies to just about anything. If you honestly seek evidence of God or evidence of his absence you will probably find it.

Most folks start out by proving or by disproving what their parents (or others) have attempted to instill in them.
The real task is to seek your own truth without reservations about how or where you will find it.

As for me, I hold my own beliefs sacred, and I do not require anyone here on earth to validate them or follow/lead me along the path I walk.
when I leave this existence I will discover if my beliefs and opinions are indeed truth and knowledge, or falsehoods and mistakes. until then I listen, learn and adjust as I go.

I can't see or prove electricity exist,but it is there, I can't see air, but it's there, I can't see radio waves but my radio says it's there. There are many things we can't see,hear or even feel but we know they are there because we see or feel proof of it. God is spirit, we can't see or feel Him with our limited sences, but we can see proof all around us that He is there. Without faith no man can see or please God. We have to accept Him with the faith of a little child. If you need concrete proof of His existence, then you don't need faith. No man can look upon the face of God and live, even Moses could only see God's back. Jesus, who was God in the flesh, said "you have see me, you have seen the Father".

Everett et al I cannot prove a negative.....in other words I cannot for certain say that there is no Loch Ness monster.....but I can say that on the evidence presented so far it is very unlikely even preposterous.
Now similarly I cannot prove that Jesus or God does not exist...but I can say that on the evidence so far it is VERY VERY unlikely....
Yes the Bible as a set of letters and diaries is a great read and some of it may have some historical truth to it...but to believe 100% AND to reach the conclusions you reach given the circumstances in which it was written, badly translated, and over egged I just cannot stretch my faith or imagination that far.
Everret I can prove the existence of electricity and gravity and air and radio waves....although invisible their existence can be proved and demonstrated scientifically......
There is no way scientifically you can prove any of what you say...it is only a child like belief in your head (your words)......sadly for me there is no scientific means to disprove what you say.....but I am afraid the evidence points more to my line of thought than to a child like belief which will never be altered no matter how much evidence is thrown at it. I feel like a bigger kid telling a younger kid that there is no Santa Claus.....I am not surprised the younger kid will not accept it...till he discovers it for himself.... all I can say is to be a bit more open minded and read other things apart from the bible....I learned far more about religion and God reading and watching documentaries and factual books than from reading the bible.......I take a look at religions of the world and say it is not for me......I respect my morals and life too much....
One question...where in the Bible does it say that women should be treated as second class citizens.....I could not find that bit BUT a lot of Christian religions operate an open discrimination system where women have little or no say.....in my own country women are prevented from being priests or other such positions.....I would be interested to hear what GOD has to say on that one.

Good Morning Folks,
It is Christmas Eve, Morning! Now there is STILL disagreements among Religious Scholors of just what the Bible says on a lot of Subjects and more importantly what it doesn't say!

Did someone mention the Gospels? I invite you to read Matthew 2:2. It says the Wise Men, (Remember them), asked King Herod, Where is he who has been born King of the Jews? King Herod knew nothing about it. So I ask you folks, how did being Born King of the Jews translate into Savior of the Universe? We are assuming the Gospel is correct and Matthew wrote it down correctly. But the word has changed many times before it got to you. I imagine Matthew got the word second hand. As I said, scholors are still discussing the subject.

Big Jim,

I see you have not offered any specific scientific evidence for the non-existance of a creator or against creative design for the cosmos. Nothing in science (and for simplicity's sake) I'll only concern ourselves with the science of Cosmology, gives any evidence or clues that there could not be a creator or cosmic design. But there are a myriad of parameters that are clues that the cosmos is fine tuned to the point that makes it more than compelling that some intelligence beyond our comprehension designed it so. I will include only 34 of these for sake of space. There are many more. If any of these were less or more than they are by infintesimal amounts, life could not exist.

Furthermore, there is no instance of there being any effect without a cause in the cosmos at anytime...anywhere.

strong nuclear force constant
if larger: no hydrogen; nuclei essential for life would be unstable
if smaller: no elements other than hydrogen
weak nuclear force constant
if larger: too much hydrogen converted to helium in big bang, hence too much heavy element material made by star burning; no expulsion of heavy elements from stars
if smaller: too little helium produced from big bang, hence too little heavy element material made by star burning; no expulsion of heavy elements from stars
gravitational force constant
if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn up quickly and unevenly|
if smaller: stars would be so cool that nuclear fusion would not ignite, thus no heavy element production
electromagnetic force constant
if larger: insufficient chemical bonding; elements more massive than boron would be unstable to fission
if smaller: insufficient chemical bonding
ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant
if larger: no stars less than 1.4 solar masses, hence short and uneven stellar burning
if smaller: no stars more than 0.8 solar masses, hence no heavy element production
ratio of electron to proton mass
if larger: insufficient chemical bonding
if smaller: insufficient chemical bonding
ratio of number of protons to number of electrons
if larger: electromagnetism dominates gravity preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
if smaller: electromagnetism dominates gravity preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
expansion rate of the universe
if larger: no galaxy formation
if smaller: universe collapses prior to star formation
entropy level of the universe
if larger: no star condensation within the proto-galaxies
if smaller: no proto-galaxy formation
mass density of the universe
if larger: too much deuterium from big bang, hence stars burn too rapidly
if smaller: insufficient helium from big bang, hence too few heavy elements forming
velocity of light
if larger: stars would be too luminous
if smaller: stars would not be luminous enough
age of the universe
if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase in the right part of the galaxy
if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed
initial uniformity of radiation
if smoother: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed
if coarser: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space
average distance between galaxies
if larger: insufficient gas would be infused into our galaxy to sustain star formation for a long enough time
if smaller: the sun’s orbit would be too radically disturbed,
galaxy cluster type
if too rich: galaxy collisions and mergers would disrupt solar orbit
if too sparse: insufficient infusion of gas to sustain star formation for a long enough time
average distance between stars
if larger: heavy element density too thin for rocky planets to form
if smaller: planetary orbits would become destabilized
fine structure constant (a number used to describe the fine structure splitting of spectral lines)
if larger: no stars more than 0.7 solar masses
if smaller: no stars less than 1.8 solar masses
if larger than 0.06: matter is unstable in large magnetic fields
decay rate of the proton
if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation
if smaller: insufficient matter in the universe for life
12C to 16O nuclear energy level ratio
if larger: insufficient oxygen
if smaller: insufficient carbon
ground state energy level for 4He
if larger: insufficient carbon and oxygen
if smaller: insufficient carbon and oxygen
decay rate of 8Be
if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars
if faster: no element production beyond beryllium and, hence, no life chemistry possible
mass excess of the neutron over the proton
if greater: neutron decay would leave too few neutrons to form the heavy elements essential for life
if smaller: proton decay would cause all stars to rapidly collapse into neutron stars or black holes
initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons
if greater: too much radiation for planets to form
if smaller: not enough matter for galaxies or stars to form
polarity of the water molecule
if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too great for life to exist
if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too small for life; liquid water would be too inferior of solvent for life chemistry to proceed; ice would not float, leading to a runaway freeze-up
supernovae eruptions
if too close: radiation would exterminate life on the planet
if too far: not enough heavy element ashes for the formation of rocky planets
if too infrequent: not enough heavy element ashes for the formation of rocky planets
if too frequent: life on the planet would be exterminated
if too soon: not enough heavy element ashes for the formation of rocky planets
if too late: life on the planet would be exterminated by radiation
white dwarf binaries
if too few: insufficient flourine produced for life chemistry to proceed
if too many: disruption of planetary orbits from stellar density; life on the planet would be exterminated
if too soon: not enough heavy elements made for efficient flourine production
if too late: flourine made too late for incorporation in protoplanet
ratio of the mass of exotic matter to ordinary matter
if smaller: galaxies would not form
if larger: universe would collapse before solar type stars can form
number of effective dimensions in the early universe
if smaller: quantum mechanics, gravity, and relativity could not coexist and life would be impossible
if larger: quantum mechanics, gravity, and relativity could not coexist and life would be impossible
number of effective dimensions in the present universe
if smaller: electron, planet, and star orbits would become unstable
if larger: electron, planet, and star orbits would become unstable
mass of the neutrino
if smaller: galaxy clusters, galaxies, and stars will not form
if larger: galaxy clusters and galaxies will be too dense
big bang ripples
if smaller: galaxies will not form; universe expands too rapidly
if larger: galaxies will be too dense; black holes will dominate; universe collapses too quickly
size of the relativistic dilation factor
if smaller: certain essential life chemistry reactions will not function properly
if larger: certain essential life chemistry reactions will not function properly
uncertainty magnitude in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
if smaller: oxygen transport to body cells would be too small; certain life-essential elements would be unstable
if larger: oxygen transport to body cells would be too great; certain life-essential elements would be unstable
cosmological constant
if too large: universe will expand too quickly for solar type stars too form

Please note that this is very inexhaustive list. It goes on and on and we're only looking at cosmology. We could also delve into biology and other scientific disiplines.

What? What? What you say?

WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

I don't believe it You can't say that
Not True
Not true


Hah If that's true who put my presents under the tree?
Huh? HUH?
Answer me that smarty pants.
Who ate the Cookies last year.
Huh? HUH?

God doesn't want to be proven scientifically. He wants our unconditional love, our faith. He proved himself to us once and yet even with this proof we rebelled. You'll find that in Genesis.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Also, Herod was not a prophet, he had poor info. The savior was predicted many times in the old testament.

There will be folks who believe and folks who don't. May God bless us all.

Wrong place. LOL.

Mike, I agree with you. But for someone who thinks The Bible is merely a collection of myths and legends, when one gives The Bible as being authoritative it becomes a circular argument to them and they usually, as a matter of course, remain unconvinced. What I have done above is give just a few clues or evidence to the case for creative design for those like Big Jim who think science has proven that there is no need for a creator.

Scripture is chock full of prophesies fulfilled of the Coming, death and resurrection of the Messiah, which in and of itself was fulfilled in Jesus as the Messiah as well as many other matters. For one unique instance, the Eastern Gate of the temple was predicted to be walled up some 600 years before the birth of Jesus in Ezekiel 44. In Jewish tradition, this is the gate through which the Messiah will enter Jerusalem. Ottoman Sultan Suleiman I sealed off the Golden Gate in 1541 to prevent the Messiah's entrance. The Muslims also built a cemetery in front of the gate, in the belief that the precursor to the Messiah, Elijah, would not be able to pass through the Golden Gate and thus the Messiah would not come. This belief was based upon two premises. First, according to Islamic teaching Elijah is a descendant of Aaron making him a priest or kohen. Secondly, that Jewish priests are not permitted to enter a cemetery

The Eastern Gate (which is also the oldest gate of the old temple) remains closed to this day and anyone who wishes to visit Jerusalem or view pictures of it can clearly see it.

But...at this point in the discussion I was being more generic concerning the creator apart from any one religion or The Bible. Biblical prophesy can be delved into in much greater detail in another discussion. When Biblical prophesy is explored in light of well established history, it all becomes way too compelling to be mere coincidence.

Oh good, I was having trouble making the connection Mike.

John

BTW, some intensely interesting replies here. I'm absorbing it all. Again, thanks to all for keeping this thread civilized.

John

Wow,
No one ever said King Herod was a Prophet. He was, appearently an Arab who practiced Judesim and was appointed Govenor of what then was known as Judea, Canan, Palestine, or what is now known as Iseral. An if I remember correctly the for So Called Gospels, Namely MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, and JOHN, were written after the fact after Jesus departed from the scene. And all of it was written from memory or from other sources rather than first hand knowledge.

I haven't heard anything or much about Predicted Saviours in the Old Testiment but I guess that isn't talked about in today's world much. Prognostations about coming events are mostly a figment of someone's imagation such as the Pastor just this year predicting the end of the world. As we all know it didn't happen.

The one about 2000 years ago was a Saviour of the Jews to get out of Bondage from Egypt if anyone would bother to look it up. And as we all know that was also a complete bust. Instead Jesus decided he was much more than that. Even the Jews of the day saw him as a fraud but that is never talked about today. He was a Rebel Rouser, Trouble Maker, and Law breaker. There was a price on his head, one of his own people turned him in. Does a perfect person go into the Temple and start breaking up the place? If he was what people say he is all he would had to do was speak a few calm words and the Money Changers/Merchants would have all cleared out. And for his troubles he got a Crown of Thorns? Of course today, he is the perfect one and all others are wrong.

And, you can look it up!

I found this and copied it...

"You wonder why God chose to allow two other men to be crucified with Jesus that day. In your thinking, why wasn't the historical spotlight put on Christ alone? Actually, I think what is interesting is not that the two thieves were there but that God chose to record that particular detail.

Think about all the things we don't know. Lots of stuff was going on that day which was never mentioned in any of the New Testament accounts. If the thieves were not important, they could have hung there beside Jesus in anonymity. So I think you are on to something in trying to figure out their significance. They were written into scripture for a reason.

You mention one of the great lessons regarding this incident in your question. Jesus extended love and forgiveness to the so called "good thief" even though he was dying himself. Actually, his love and forgiveness were there for the other thief also since Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE world. The difference is that one chose not to receive it.

Yes, the tender love of God is one lesson but there are others. Jesus also gave us a key to understanding grace when he said to the good thief; "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43) Scripture teaches us that we are saved by grace and not by works and this is a perfect example of that. There was no time left for the thief to do anything in the way of making up for his sins or turning his life around. Yet Jesus told him TODAY he would be with him in paradise. It was the thief's heart condition that gave him instant access to eternity in heaven.

There is one more powerful analogy I see as I look at the three crosses. Jesus is in the middle, at the very center of God's plan for redemption. Who is he? "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6)

But what is speaking out from either side of him? On the one side is faith; the other side is unbelief. On the one side is humility; on the other is arrogance. Profanity speaks out of one side and reverence speaks out of the other side. These two voices continue to speak from either side of the cross today. The world has always been divided, and always will be divided, with Christ at the center. Maybe God placed a man on each side of Jesus for this reason: one is the voice of the kingdom of this world and the other is the voice of the kingdom of God.

I will end with a question of my own for each reader. Which of these two speaks for you?"

Stevie your list although extensive proves nothing other than that conditions have to be perfect for life to begin.....if given long enough chance will make conditions right.....If God is so all powerful and clever...well you would have thought he would have made a better job of it all round....
1. he would not have made anything imperfect.
2. if mankind blew Eden for whatever reason you would have thunk he could have rectified the situation there and there.
3. If he wanted his presence felt then he could have made it clear by giving us conclusive unchallengeable proof ( a few manmade words called the Bible does not count for me)
4. and last but by no means least he could never let atrocities happen in HIS name.

You ask for proof that the Bible is wrong...well there is archaeological evidence a plenty just watch the Discovery channel....or read the Bible to see just how many contradictions and alternative versions of events there are......bear in mind that ALL the Gospels were written at least a hundred years after the death of Jesus how can we take the facts at face value......also there is no written evidence from Roman sources to show of any of the events actually taken place.
http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm
plenty more where that came from.

Here's an old joke titled Science Verses God

The scientist approached God and said,

"Listen, we've decided we no longer need you. Nowadays, we can clone people, transplant hearts and do all kinds of things that were once considered miraculous."

God patiently heard him out, and then said, "All right. To see whether or not you still need me, why don't we have a man-making contest?"
"Okay, great!" the scientist said.

"Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam," God said.
"That's fine," replied the scientist, and bent to scoop up a handful of dirt.

"Whoa!" God said, shaking his head in disapproval.
"Not so fast, pal. You go get your own dirt!"

I came across this list...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

they all have something in common...they all think that theirs is the one true faith and that everyone else is wrong...some even want to kill others who do not believe as they do if they cannot convert them first....now they cannot ALL be right......at the end of the day not one person has any real tangible evidence that what they believe in has any real credit or truth other than a belief or a blind faith....so even if I did believe in God then who do I support and who do I declare is talking nonsense?......given the poor track record of organised religion when it comes to hypocrisy, contradictions, moral and social issues, fairness and preserving life I vote none of the above.
When I see what evil has been done in the name of God and the barbaric practices of some religious folk I cringe....that is enough reason for me to be an atheist.
Man created God not the other way around...and it was man who wrote the bible to try to explain his own creation....now IMO it might have worked when people were uneducated and easily led but today more and more are questioning the ethics of religion and the existence of God.....I also find it hard to take in that people actually think they can second guess what God thinks, wants and what his plans are......He has never spoken to me....but if he did contact me then I would give him an ear bashing for the needless suffering he has caused to the planet he created.....that is IMHO inexcusable even for a God......and could have been very simply sorted out thousands if not billions of years ago.

Jim,
Sorry for the format this takes on but I wrote it in "notebook" and now after previewing it, it comes out a bit jumbled.
Anyway, you miss my point. First off, I wasn't at this point concerning myself with Christianity or any other religion. I was merely
giving a very small bit of evidence for the case of creative design. How did the cosmos become so finely tuned, not just to
support life, but to allow it to exist as it does at all? It all just happened by mere chance right? Modern astronomers
believe they can mathmatically go back in time to a fraction of a second after the Big Bang. It's actually a fraction so
small that if memory serves me well is something like .01 to the 43rd power or a decimal followed by 43 zeros and a 1. But
they admit that they can go no further back than that because at that point, all known physics breaks down completely. So
what was the catalyst for what happened just before that, at the very beginning of time and the cosmos. As a side note, the
Big Bang was a name started by astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle to ridicule those who did not believe in a steady state universe.
Steady state cosmology has been debunked by more advanced and recent scientific discovery. So tell me, What was that
catalyst? Whatever it was it had to be outside of what became to be the cosmos just as if you made something you would not be
found within it itself. So far you have offered zero evidence scientifically that would preclude a creator or the need for
one other than your opinion. That's it. Your individual opinion. Not much to go on in your instance. No evidence at all.

But since you mentioned "Stevie your list although extensive proves nothing other than that conditions have to be perfect for
life to begin.....if given long enough chance will make conditions right" let's address that comment. It is estimated that
the universe is approximately 14 billion years old. Earth, it is believed by astronomers, is somewhere in the area of 4.5
billion years old. That's not much time for life to begin, if you believe in evolution, even given the precise fine tuning
and mere chance. It gives Earth enough time to be in a suitable state to "support" life but not for organic life to spring
from inorganic matter by astronomical standards. Big difference. Why is there no organic life springing forth from inorganic
matter today? The conditions are ripe for it if it was scientifically sound.

You further wrote...
If God is so all powerful and clever...well you would have thought he would have made a better job of it all round....
1. he would not have made anything imperfect.
2. if mankind blew Eden for whatever reason you would have thunk he could have rectified the situation there and there.
3. If he wanted his presence felt then he could have made it clear by giving us conclusive unchallengeable proof ( a few
manmade words called the Bible does not count for me)
4. and last but by no means least he could never let atrocities happen in HIS name.

To address points #1&2 God didn't create anything imperfect in the beginning. Through the fall the world became imperfect but
he did rectify the situation by becoming a man in real space-time in the person of Jesus so through his birth, death and
resurrection he who was without sin became sin and paid the price for your sins, my sins and everyone else's. But is all based on Grace (unmerited favor). He has offered you this gift. All you have to do is accept the gift. You can't get there from your own works. Finally, Then everything
will be restored to it's original perfect form.

Your 3rd point..."If he wanted his presence felt then he could have made it clear by giving us conclusive unchallengeable
proof ( a few manmade words called the Bible does not count for me)"

Well, actually He has given more than enough compelling evidence that He exists as I previously stated and there is no
scientific evidence or proof that He doesn't or couldn't exist as you like to state. You like to scoff at the Bible but there
are hundreds of prophesies which came true concerning the birth (even the place of birth), manner of death and concerning
many other concerns in the life of Jesus. The Hebrew scriptures are a collection of 39 books written my people of many
different writers from differing times, situations, stations in life, etc. which all fit seamlessly together as a whole and
they all lead up to a climax in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. He also has made himself available on a personal
basis to billions of those who sincerly seek or have sought him. I am one of those billions so I can speak for myself on that
matter, thank you very much. You made a definitive statement earlier on that PRAYERS ARE NEVER ANSWERED. Hmmm...How do you
know that as a matter of authority? I know of lots of cases personally where prayers were answered in miraculous fashion.

Point #4..."and last but by no means least he could never let atrocities happen in HIS name."

Ahh yes. The all knowing Big Jim apprehending the mind of the infinite. Once again, just your mere opinion. Yes, there have
been atrocities committed in the name of God but these were all by the hand of sinful men, not of God Himself. Unfortunately
it has happened at the hand of many religions including the Catholic church which has long since condemned them.

You wrote...
"You ask for proof that the Bible is wrong...well there is archaeological evidence a plenty just watch the Discovery
channel...."

Reread what I wrote earlier. I was at that juncture leaving out Christianity or religion in general and I made a point of
that. I didn't ask you to disprove the Bible but to give scientific evidence (not even proof) that there was no creator or the need for one. You have yet to offer any.

But since you bring it up, there have been many documentaries on the Discovery channel and others such as the History channel
concerning archaeological evidence that buttress the Bible narratives as well. Both schools have their own agenda granted.
There actually have been recent archaeological discoveries in the last century and in more recent days that include
inscriptions mentioning biblical characters such as King David and even Pontius Pilate to name only two. Archaeological
discoveries were found recently that cleared up the apparent lack of evidence for one of the villages of Jesus time along the
Sea of Galilee. I believe the village was Capernaum but I may be wrong on that lone point but anyway, Archaeological digs
further up from the Sea of Galilee have uncovered artifacts that show that it did infact exist. The reason it was not located
earlier is because the shoreline of the Sea of Galilee has receeded in the last 2000 years by several hundred feet. They were
looking in the wrong location until recently.

As this has turned into a rather long exposition I'll continue in another post.....Stay tuned.

...continued...

Alrighty now, Jim. You wrote...

"You ask for proof that the Bible is wrong...well there is archaeological evidence a plenty just watch the Discovery
channel....or read the Bible to see just how many contradictions and alternative versions of events there are......bear in
mind that ALL the Gospels were written at least a hundred years after the death of Jesus how can we take the facts at face
value......also there is no written evidence from Roman sources to show of any of the events actually taken place.
http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm
plenty more where that came from."

I already addressed the archaeological point so I won't reiterate that. Actually the epistles of Paul were written much
earlier than you mention. The first which I believe was to Timothy is now estimated to be somewhere within 15 to 25 years
after the death of Jesus. The Gospels were written 40 to 60 years following his death contrary to what you stated. They were
also eyewitness accounts. There are more recent extant copies of the Gospels than there are for any writings of antiquity
including Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars and no historian denies the legitimacy of that. But I digress. Paul's letters provide
an outline of all the events of Jesus's life found in the Gospels-his miracles, claims, crucifixion, and resurrection. This
means that the Biblical accounts of Jesu's life were circulating with the lifetimes of hundreds who had been present at the
events of his ministry. Luke claims he got his account of Jesus's life from eyewitnesses who were still alive. There were
numerous well known living eyewitnesses to Jesus's teachings and life events. They had committed them to memory and they
remained active in the public life for the churches throughout their lifetimes, serving as ongoing sources and guarantors of
the truth of those accounts. Some of the eyewitnesses were named. Mark, for example, says that the man who helped Jesus carry
his cross was the father of "Alexander and Rufus." There is no reason for the author to include such names unless the readers
knew or could have access to them. Mark is saying "Alexander and Rufus vouch for the truth of what I am telling you, If you
want to ask them. Paul refers to a body of five hundred eyewitnesses who saw the risen Christ at once. You can't write that
in a document designed for public reading unless there really were surviving witnesses whose testimony agreed and who could
confirm what the author said. All this decisively refutes the idea the gospels were anonymous, collective, evolving oral
traditions. Instead they were oral histories taken down from the mouths of the living eyewitnesses who preserved the words
and deeds of Jesus in great detail.

It was not only Jesus's supporters who were still alive. There were many bystanders, officials, and opponents who had heard
him teach, seen his actions, and watched him die. They would have been especially ready to challenge any accounts that were
fabricated. For a highly altered, fictionalized account of an event to take hold in the public imagination it is necessary
that the eyewitnesses (and their children and grandchildren) all be long dead. They must be off the scene so they cannot
contradict or debunk the embellishments and falsehoods of the story. The gospels were written far too soon for this to occur.
The New Testiment documents could not say Jesus was crucified when thousands of people were still alive who knew whether he
was or not. If there had not been appearances after his death, if there had not been an empty tomb, if he had not made these
claims, and these public documents claimed they happened, Christianity would have never gotten off the ground. The hearers
would have simply laughed at the accounts.



The link you provided by the way includes a list of fancies that have been around for decades and debunked many times
throughout that time. If you're going to try to disprove the Bible at least include something that doesn't come from avowed
atheists who have their own agenda.

For the sake of brevity I'll address only a few of the assertions...


CONCLUSION: POSSIBLE ORIGINS OF THE JESUS MYTH

Various propositions have been advanced to account for the rise of the Jesus myth. Barker lists the following as
possibilities:

1. It was “patterned from a story in the Jewish Talmudic literature about the illegitimate son of a woman named Miriam (Mary)
and a Roman soldier named Pandera, sometimes called Joseph Pandera.”

This one is quite a stretch. Indeed, it is an "advanced proposition" as stated above.

It could have been based on a naturalistic explanation that the resurrection story was essentially historically reliable,
“but that Jesus merely fainted, and was presumed to be dead, coming back to consciousness later.”

OK, let me get this straight. A man is beaten almost to the point of death (before being crucified) IS then crucified, a
spear thrust into his side to determine that he was indeed dead, is put in a tomb with a stone rolled into the opening,
somehow has the strength on the morning of the 3rd day with infection setting in to move the stone and escape unnoticed by
the garrison of Roman centurians charged with guarding his tomb when they would have been put to death for even sleeping on
the job so that they didn't notice....

Oh my gosh...Danger Will Robinson...Major disconnect.


It “grew out of a pre-Christian cult of Joshua,” originating in tensions between two different Joshua factions.
Interesting in this regard is the fact that “Jesus” is the Greek word for “Joshua." As Barker notes, in Mark 9:38, “the
disciples of Jesus saw another man who was casting out devils in the name of Jesus (Joshua).”

Nice try but no cigar.

Finally, and I'll close here for now...you often speak of good and evil, about doing good to your fellow man, morality,etc.

If there is no creator,then who is the arbitor of what is good or bad.? Who made the rules concerning good and bad?

Apparently, if this is the case, the answer is...We just made it up. THAT is the part that is man made as you say. If I see
an elderly lady crossing the street I can stop and let her across. Or...I could run her down with my car. Neither is good or
bad, good or evil. It just IS. After all, there cannot possibly be a God or creator can there? And without an ultimate law
giver there can be no definitive law of good and evil. It all lies in the opinion of finite men based on situational ethics
which are man made based on connvenience. Yeah, I think I've got it now.

Oh...just in case you're wrong and there is a Holy God (I know...I know, that's impossible) you will get your chance to give
Him an "ear bashing" as you stated in your last post on Judgement day. I wonder how that will pan out.