JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Traditional Christianity vs. Modern Christianity

I'm such a troublemaker...

Just to get the ball rollling...one is as fake as the other.

Kurt you're funny!!!

BTW there's nothing fake about true christianity!

While I am not a "Christian" per se (I was raised Jewish, and identify as such), I am glad that I live in a world that has been given Jesus' message of love and forgiveness for your fellow man.

Dang, Kurt... don't poke that hive of "killer bees" with that stick.... Oh NO... Mr. Kurt... I didn't know you could run so fast!

Here we go again. Embattled Christians versus those Heathens from across the pond in Scotland... once a bastion of Christianity.

Nothin' fake about it Jim. You either believe or you don't. The hard part is turnin' the other cheek while Big Ol' Curmudgeons (like you) drive stakes into our ever-bleeding hearts... LOL!

I don't concern myself about the faith (or non-faith) of others unless I'm given the opportunity to witness. Sometimes it comes in strange ways or situations. I must have "saved" at least ten Scots Athiests in the past month alone with my chart topping version of "Old Rugged Cross."

Seriously... the difficult part about being a Christian... is practicing it. Living the commandments... being kind to your fellow man. Doing your duty to God and Country. Exemplifying the life of Christ by living it in his path.

Be well, my children. (You too, Big Jim!)

Big Jim, only one post from me in this discussion and I am back to work. And it is only because of the last 6 pager that evolved from a question on Christianity.


You will never be able to prove that God does NOT exist as much as an evangelical Christian or other fervid believer will NOT be able to prove that God does exist.


I have long ago concluded that the atheist is as foolish as the blind believer of a complicated dogma.


Consider this. The "total volume of reality" comprises what is known to be true and real, what is speculative, and what is unknown. God is clearly with the realm of the speculative and unknown, but that does not make God "true" or "false", simply "speculative and unknown"


The simplest truth about God is that God is possible. I choose to believe in the God of Abraham, the One God of Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. I choose to believe that each of the three are extremely important, historically and spiritually, and each gave us important lessons to live by.


I have a personal relationship with "my God", one that goes beyond organized religion. I see all believers in our one God on a different road but on a common journey. I have seen what belief in God does, to civilizations and to individuals, and you must admit that most of it is good and positive. Where it is not, it is mostly due to the failures of individuals who twist their belief to accommodate their agendas.


So I see your denial of God as foolish and uninformed and totally lacking in insight....but you are totally free to believe what you believe or don't believe.


You are also totally free to try and convince others you are right. Just remember though, the ultimate current truth about God is that God is squarely in the realm of "opinion and faith".


So as much as those who oppose you rely on this duo, so do you.

Here's what I believe:

http://www.biblegateway.com/

If you define "traditional" as the early days, then I'd say it was a lot more dangerous to be a Christian in the 1st century. Rumor has it, that the original followers were often killed(but I'll have to check with my resource in Scotland to see if that's a myth or not).

Everything changed over time(sadly), as the rag-tag Jewish sect developed into a powerful institution, but "traditionally", they were a Socialist oriented group of outcasts who were instructed to give up/share all they owned, and were willing to die for their beliefs.

I'm not altogether sure I'd've made the cut...Oh, and to make matters worse, they didn't have indoor plumbing.

Midnite

Well,
We had that guy that predicted the end of the world back in May, and then in October and then........

.....they were a Socialist oriented group of outcasts who were instructed to give up/share all they owned, and were willing to die for their beliefs.


Sounds a lot like the outcasts here at JPF.

cheers, niteshift

Yeah Nite, I always get Jesus and Brian A. Whitney confused. I mean, they both have beards, right? Hard to tell 'em apart.

But again, for me, it comes down to indoor plumbing.

Midnite

I just recorded a track from Jesus Christ Superstar, so I guess I prefer Classic Rock Christianity.

Why not just throw politics out there while we're at it....personally I don't believe in politics....

I do believe in Jesus, I am a Christian and as a Christian I believe it's not my place to judge.

Good luck to y'all with this one....

FAIRNESS demands I respect your right to believe b.s.
REASON demands I not respect the b.s. you believe.

I am the first to admit that I am foolish. However I do not accept what others say blindly without proof. I do not kill because others do not believe as I do. I do not revere something that itself gives confusing and opposite views to what I believe is right. And I certainly do not condone anything that allows the suffering and persecution of generation after generation. I also do not accept that we were created, at least in the way religions would have us believe. On a TV program only last week it was stated that at least one in five Americans reject the theory of evolution and believe instead that we were created by God. They also believe that ALL the scientific evidence and discoveries to the contrary are faked.
Now when people say that they have a personal relationship with God I am perplexed. Exactly what does that mean? Can you see him, touch him speak to him? Or is it just a figment of your imagination? Why can I not see him....cause I have several bones to pick?
Whilst God is speculative or unknown it is one almighty jump to firmly believe absolutely in his existence..... now that is foolish and shows ignorance beyond all bounds.
I believe that ALL organised religion is wrong simply because history has shown that it has done more harm than good. We cannot use the excuse that it is man who is wrong for acts done in the name of God. If you read the bible and believe its accuracy then that will prove that God has himself taken sides and committed mass murder on multiple occasions. Read about Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife.....etc etc etc etc the Bible is full of such acts commited by God. If God did give his only begotton son for our sins then it clearly has not worked and it was a silly dumb thing to do in the first place. Not the actions of some superior intelligence.
Yes I am foolish for failing to blindly accept without question all these man made myths and stories. There are questions we simply cannot answer. I prefer to leave the blanks with question marks rather than use imagination to make up my own answers to fill them in. You know in the not too distant past people were murderd tortured or imprisoned not for believing in God but for NOT believing in God or for trying to explain things we today take for granted as being factual.....like the Earth is round and it orbits the Sun. We burned innocents at the stake for using natural herbs to heal others. If Christians can get these things so wrong why should I believe that anything else they come up with or claim is SO right rather than SO wrong....I simply cannot. I have studied religion and the more I study it the more cynical and skeptical I become.

That might be hard, Dave. But here is something harder: Living according to (mostly) those same values as an agnostic.

Scott

No Jim, you are foolish not because you do not believe what Christians believe, but because you use that to adamanently refuse to believe that God may exist...you refuse to believe in the possibility of God.


When I said I have a personal relationship with my God, what I mean is that I have no religion standing between myself and God. I do not base my behaviour on an in depth study of the Bible, Koran or the New Testament, nor on the irrational or unsupported beliefs of others.


I base my behaviour as much as I can on the 10 commandments, the "Golden Rule" and Aristotle's "Golden Mean". Full stop. Yes, those first two are from The Bible, but they also make lots of sense, and Aristotle gave us a wonderful guide to making decisions.


I've certainly read the Old and New Testaments that comprise The Bible, and I've also read the Holy Koran, and a lot of history and philosophy, and I keep up with developments in the sciences and what we know about our world and the universe we live in.


And I've come to a totally different conclusion than you.


I believe history has shown us that religion has brought culture and civilization, looked after the sick, the dying, the poor, and brought education and enlightenment. Yes, it also gave us Torquemada, and it also gives us fundamentalists who refuse to believe the truth of scientific fact, but don't blame that on religion. You can only blame that on individual action and ignorance.


Go back through history, and instead of looking for sticks to beat your dog, and I admit there are lots of them, look at the Mother Theresas, Albert Schweitsers, and Dr Martin Luther Kings. I know you'll find more of those than you'll find Torquemadas and Pope Leos. And I'm certain too of those you'd choose as role models.

It's a lot easier to recognize a person's goodness than it is to recognize their faith.

It's sort of like declaring love...it's nice to declare it, but the declaration is empty until you demonstrate it. I think faith works the same way...good to declare, but essentially false if not demonstrated.

I vote that Kurt is banned..... bannned I say ! String him up by his boot laces and beat him with a soggy Bible ( or a wet tram ticket ) and throw his corpse into..... wherever it may be he's going.

cheers, niteshift

SEEMS LIKE A SONG COULD SAY: IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN SOMETHING, YOU BELIEVE IN NOTHING--EVEN HALF OF SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN ALL OF NOTHING, WHERE I COME FROM!

HAVE ANOTHER BIG ORANGE DRINK --EITHER ONE OR ZERO--I VOTE FOR ONE--

Mackie

"On a TV program only last week it was stated that at least one in five Americans reject the theory of evolution and believe instead that we were created by God. They also believe that ALL the scientific evidence and discoveries to the contrary are faked."



Whoa, Jim. Cite your source and tell us what exactly they said and where they got this statistic. Or do you expect us to believe what you say they said on blind faith?

Stop wasting your time, and go write a tune !

cheers, niteshift

Jean "Whoa, Jim. Cite your source and tell us what exactly they said and where they got this statistic. Or do you expect us to believe what you say they said on blind faith?"

No Jean I expect people to check things out first.....

Just google the statements I made and you will see plenty of sources. The program I watched was a BBC program called "QI"it is a sort of light hearted quiz program where questions are asked about obscure topics. I cannot be bothered to quote sources. I would have thought you would have checked to see that I am wrong first before criticising me. It just so happens I am right. Maybe if folk did some research and exploring facts alternative ideas they would not so readily jump to conclusions or adopt some of the silly beliefs I am on about.

John you do not NEED faith or a belief in God to do good. I think even a cursory search of history will reveal more sticks to beat dogs with than civilised saintly folk looking after the sick and elderly. Even today with so much religion around there are millions starving to death and dying from preventable disease. So religion and belief in God is not working on that level or any other level for that matter.
I live by the rules am honest hard working and do my fair share of charity work. I do not need God to do that....if anything I think a religious belief like some contradictory folk have would be a distinct hindrance.

I'm a pagan, and that is because I got horribly sick and tired of idiots telling me all about the fate of my own immortal soul. I sought a clear path to travel, and I found such, along with beautiful people who have learned how to love and how to live. We follow the seasons, and celebrate the changes that nature brings. We are monotheistic, matriarchial, and NON THREATENING.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogta8alHiU&feature=related

Jim, you should pen a song for Atheists lol.

You people are all part of a program designed to entertain me, you only exist when I happen to notice you. BTW any response you come up with will only be a response when I say it is.


Cheers
Paul

Me too.

Too funny Paul. I actually laughed out loud when I read that. Which is what you programed me to do.

Too funny Paul. I actually laughed out loud when I read that. Which is what you programed me to do.

The double post is just a glitch in my Little Stevie B program, may need to be reformated!

Cheers
Paul

Hmmmmmm .... I think you're right.

If stupidity got us into this mess then stupidity can get us out of it.

Paul programmed me to say that.

Stevie

Now that I have noticed it, it has been said!

Cheers
Paul

The proof is really not in the pudding.

You can be right about just about anything if you ask somebody to prove or disprove it. Even things that have been proven get disproven time and time again.

For example the phrase speed kills. Can you prove that? No, you can prove that errant driving while speeding kills, but you cant prove that speed itself kills. Speed was there all along you just happened to join it. Speed saves as much as it kills too.

But atheists have the advantage, cause the burden of proof is on the believer. They are the ones claiming that there is a supreme being somewhere out there or in there, or wherever.

They dont have to prove God doesnt exist because nobody has shown a picture of God, or nobody has seen the red sea part, at least not recently. God hasnt appeard through the clouds and said "you guys better cut it out, im getting really ticked off up here"

So the athesist just has to say show me where god is. how do you know he is there?

As somebody once said, even the most religious people look both ways when they cross the street

And the Atheist is always going to use the advatage to his or her advantage, and technically they will always be right.

What the Atheist doesnt see, is that the believer is not measuring all things through science or observation. They are tuning into what they believe to be a higher calling.

Then again if you believe something, it's true.

If God proved his existence, then he would never receive unconditional love.

but he's God, he doesnt need that. People need that.

Before he created the world, where was he getting his unconditional love from? remember he has been around a long time.

I dont buy into that theory. A God who creates the world because he had nothing else to do with his time, and create a world that he controls, and all the peons living in it are forever under his scrunity.

Im a believer, I just dont know in exactly what. I cant fill in all the blanks.

The only thing I can surmise is that if we knew 100%, then our lives wouldnt mean as much. We wouldnt have any struggle...i'll live 50 years in a wheel chair, if I know for certain that afterwards I will live forever.

If we really believed in God, and believed in his mercy, we would all kill ourselves to get there now. This crazy world is enough to do it to anyone.

I think most of us are looking for answers in the wrong places

Humm,
To understand what religion was like 1500 years ago you would had to have lived then. Today all you can do is read and study what has been written with the understanding that there have been a lot of opinions about the subject written since.

Now for a lesson you may want to consider. DEFINE GOD. I bet no one today has ever defined God, they just go along with the program. Good luck!

God took my Dad from me (with my Dad's Stupidity & Misfortune Assisting) when I was 4, and a Total Believer.

So, as I matured, with more Power-to-Question, & an Oppressive Stepdad, I ceased Believing Altogether, tho remaining active in Church-Attendance..(Because, frankly, I had no choice.)

When I did, My Agnostic Period began, lasting thru Teenager-dom & up to One Fateful Night in 'Nam, where, yeah, I met The Foxhole God. No Further "Convincing" is ever necessary.

I'll always have problems, like Jim, with embracing Christianity, tho I had to read the Bible, cover-to-cover, for Religion Courses, required, at my College. (Passed, with a "B" in it, I'll add.) ;-)>

My "Christian-Baiting" Days are long-over, though... I don't think ANY group of "Believers" HAS "All The Answers"...&..the Best Thing You Can Have here on Earth is an Open Mind.

That and "Commandment One": Thou Shall Not Kill.

Sorry, No time to debate How Many Angels can Sit on the Head of a Pin...

Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

God. Christianity. Old vs New

Believers vs Non Believers.

Devoted or not.
Love him Unconditionally?
Or He loves us unconditionally?

I don't know about any of it. I don't know if I even care.

I have decided to keep an open mind. I have never had a "Foxhole" moment. But I have had a "Why would a God do this to me moment" or better yet "Why would a God do this to my Daughter moment"

My 6 year old Daughter, who had no medical problems that we knew of, Died in her sleep. She simply went to bed one night and never woke up.
Before that My 76 day old son died in his sleep. My wife also had baby 6 weeks early who lived about one hour after birth.
I wasn't the best Christian, I wasn't even the best person before that, but I turned into a real bastard after that. It took me ten years to recover from it. And I think I still have problems.

When my 6 year old died was when I decided if there was a God he was never going to have me kneel before him until he stood before me and told me why.
And If I must spend my eternity in hell because of it...so be it.

Show me one person who believes in God without first having his existence explained and taught to him by his peers or his parents....then I might start believing....catch folk at an early enough age and they will believe anything. We havea vivid imagination and some use it to the extreme.

Jim, believers do not owe you proof, so stop challenging their belief.

As much as you want sciencific evidence, there isn't any, nor is there any to disprove their beliefs.

You want to be an atheist, fine, your prerogrative. But why do you feel the need to continue to persuade others that your are right?

You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God so why do you insist on your dogmatic pursuit?

Bill,
I'm truly sorry for the loss of your babies.
Take care,
Lisa

Well you asked for just one so I won't compile a list. C.S. Lewis was an avowed atheist who loved to debate Christians and other non-believers just to embarrass them. Kind of like someone on this forum we're all familiar with. He later became a believer in God and a Christian to boot and wrote several key books on the subject ala Mere Christianity.

She's no longer living on this planet but a lady I knew named Louise Bingham was a Wiccan who never had been to church in her life and didn't have any Christian reference in her family but later in life had a Damascus Road experience and became one of the most devoted believers I've ever experienced first hand.

Then there's...well...me. Although I grew up around believers I later questioned the existance of God in general and Christianity in particular when I was in college. I also had my own encounter with God later in my twenties and started a life long study of both believers and non-believers arguments and the evidence given from both camps. I discovered the arguments of the non-believing "scholars" to be rather shallow based on science, Biblical prophesy fulfilled, and common sense.

Does that mean you will now have an open mind? That's a rhetorical question. We all know the answer.

Stevie

I only pop in here from time to time, and am starting to wonder if JPF is really a political/religious site thinly disguised as a Songwriting Forum.

Actually I think JPF is a people forum that has a lot of Music, songwriting, and creative writing and arts on it and a little bit of every day people crap.

Stevie you have not answered my admittedly loaded question and have again missed the point. Nobody just thinks "ah I have suddenly discovered God and accept Him" without being indoctrinated FIRST. Most folk go through life absorbing what parents or peers have already taught them at an early impressionable age. People constantly preach to them about the subject. Now some people like myself are indoctrinated through the normal education system yet reject these teachings whilst others accept them willingly. I do not think that anybody has ever become a follower of any creation theory without first having the seed planted through one form of indoctrinateion or another. I adopt the opinion that we should NOT be indoctrinated and should only follow a belief through our own choice when we are adult enought to do our own research and follow our own logic.
It is impossible to fight narrow minded indoctrination.

As a child I was raised to believe without question that "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so." But in my teens, I discovered that the Bible has a more ultilitarian value. In a pinch, it's onion-skin pages can be used as rolling papers. For some reason, those from Revelations seemed to work best. Coincidence, or divine intervention?

Yep, that Kurt is a cotton pickin troublemaker

You could reverse that comment by saying that if you raise your kids not to believe in anything they wont either.

and no kid is republican or democrat or commy without being explained what those things are.

Everything we do is governed by the people who influenced us, not just religion.

Every ancient culture and every modern culture no matter how separated by time and location have or have had a concept of a creator. They may have had different takes on what the creator is like but it's like it's instinctual in humans to believe that we were created by something/someone greater than ourselves.

It is impossible to fight narrow minded indoctrination? Then why do you fight it? If that's true then you are a walking, talking contradiction.

Oh, and I did answer your question. You just don't like the answer. In the States we are indoctrinated to believe in evolution. Now some people accept this theory while others reject it for reasons of their own and it's not all theological. I have no problem accepting that if God chose to He could have brought life into being through evolutionary principles. I just see too many holes in the theory to treat it as fact. I do believe that there is evolution within species due to genetics but there is no factual evidence that any animal evolved into another species. It's all just fanciful theory. Talk about a leap of faith. The notion that inorganic matter evolved into organic matter is preposterous. Where is the evidence that ever happened and why do we not see it happening today? There are environments on our ocean floors that fit the designation of how it was when this supposedly took place due to under water volcanic action. Why do we not witness even a glimpse of inorganic matter beginning to evolve into living matter today in that environment?

You believe in the Big Bang theory and so do I unless it is proven different. But where did the energy that led to everything in existance come from? Your god, science, cannot even hint at an answer to that question. To believe that everything that is came out of nothing with no primary creator is a rather foolish notion and takes more blind faith than I can muster. Apparently you are more a man of blind faith than I am.

Once again I ask you to strip away the notion of all so called man made religion and tell me where everything in our plane of existance came from and how? Pray to your science god you blindly have faith in and see if you can come up with a rational answer. Just answer that one question leaving religion out of the equation. Then explain how inorganic matter magically became living matter and show me evidence of how that happened or is happening today. Or have you just been indoctrinated to believe that's how life began? Incidentally, if you had never heard of evolution, how would you have come to concieve of it on your own? Sounds like indoctrination and blind faith to me.