JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Is Songwriting Dead?

We know whats been happening in music in general, but is the craft of songwriting a lost one?

Does anybody listening to music out there aside from the ones who make music themselves, care about great song craft? Or great lyrics? or even great melody?

I think it's "Move me or Lose me"

Great sound, seems to trump great song and great performance.

I guess it's logical. When a jazz cat practices 8 hours a day just to be a competent Jazz player, who really cares? Other Jazz musicians. If a Jazz guy throws a concert for 100 people 99 of them will be other jazz musicians.

Nobody cares how much time and dedication he put into it, and how he probably destroys most musicians making millions on a strict musical level. But so What? Whatdoes your great musicianship have to do with me?

I think that is what is happening with songs too. Nobody cares how you crafted your song so meticulously, am I going to jump up and down, or am I not?

I see winners of songwriting contests of varying degrees, most who win the competetion have a kick ass recording , nearly radio ready or radio ready, and some catchy hooks and a cool beat.

But not alot of craft going on except polishing craft.

And a great performer tends to win the live competions, people forget about the song and get entranced by the great performer and he or she wins.

Anyway, is it something we should just do, like the poor jazz musician, for our own achievments? and not worry about any reward? Or do we stop this nonsens and get us some kick ass recordings of the catchiest songs we can think up?

hmm...

No songwriting is not dead, it's just been pushed underground yet again. It will resurface its adorable little mug again sometime soon.
In the meantime, keep digging into the underground to find great songwriters. (Although a few are making it with true songcraft -- Wilco is one that comes to mind.)

There are alot of undergrounds I enjoy Willie Nile is starting to get recognized even though he's in his 60's.

Guy named James Maddock who Ive met and is a great songwriter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1yNvsKF8aE

But these are the guys who are not up front.

And what about the non performing songwriter. What is there for them anymore?

We're all definitely in this for a host of different reasons (I'm missing some I'm sure)

love the art
wanna make big money or some money atleast
love magical melodies
love the language of lyrics
a hobby with a hope
wanna be a household name
came into it all accidentally
love anything music related
wanna connect with the world
etc
etc
and the list goes on....

I think what "we do" will be determined by where our passions/goals/motivations lie. We each do what is right for ourselves or otherwise it isn't real and if it isn't real, well....it isn't right

Songwriting is probably bigger than ever. Making money from it is dead.

True, yet at some point it gets lonely in the basement, u want somebody to hear the fruits of your labors.

I think recording is big , not songwriting, but yeah money from it is hard no matter what,

Lonely in the basement?

Yes, there are three requirements attached to music. The writer/composer, the performer, and the listener. The question is how many listeners does one need? Some composers are satisfied with a handful of their peers. Others need the World.

John

a symbol of isolation...lol

Well yea the internet allows us 25 to 50 listeners, better than brother and sister and the mailman I guess.

I find I dont enjoy the typical soundclick audience any more though, no real connection cause they are doing the same thing you are.

I'm grateful to have lived in the Golden Age. There haven't been many of them. Throughout history, art has more often than not been the milieu of the poor, crazy, obsessed artist-type. People love to enjoy it--rich people even purchase it--but the artists themselves have generally been the type of people your parents warn you not to become.

Good songwriting is very low on the list of what most people want. They want to be entertained, they want their world decorated with pleasurable sights and sounds...they are not hoping to admire someone's work.

I think it depends on how old you are or if you consider yourself an intellectual.
All us young people want is up tempo, catchy hook and melody.

Carly Rae Jepsen - Call Maybe

Best hook in years, catchy melody, great music but verses are a bit weak
and that's okay. We don't want it complicated.

Gavin Degraw - I don't want to be

Memorable hook and melody.. but forgettable verses
But we love it

Music is as music does.

The problem isn't the question about whether songwriting is dead or not. The problem is that many people think they're good enough that they know better.

That's not true for some songwriters, but it IS true for MOST.

If you're not good enough, learn everything you can until you can compete with what's out there.

Network and make friends with the right people who can help you make a buck or two.

There IS money to be made out there.

Find out where the market is. If you don't fit the market, then that is an eye opener as to why you're not making any money. People are not going to cut what they don't want.

Music isn't dead, but somebody's got passion by the throat.

Songwriting is alive and well. It's thriving.

Just go to nashville and step in the Bluebird any night of the week.
http://www.bluebirdcafe.com

Go to NSAI meeting and workshops
http://www.nashvillesongwriters.com/

Go to kerrville folk festival. Listen to each years batch of new folk writers http://www.kerrville-music.com/newfolk.htm

Check out Ed Sheeran's A Team or Lego House.
He's one of the artists playing the closing ceremony at the olympics.

Listen to JPFs finalists for any of the years.
http://jpfolks.org/default.php?page=awards

Check out artists & writers at:
The ASCAP "I Create Music" EXPO

The business has changed, it's gotten tougher. It's harder to get cuts, it's harder to make money. Many people want to be in music, many talented people are just scraping by. there's a few songwriters and artists who are truly thriving. If you want to get cuts, you gotta play the game according to the new rules and it might happen but probably not.

The best songs don't always win, but great songs will almost always eventually break through.

STOP! First: WRITE A GOOD SONG

Julie Moriva sign pub deal with BIG MACHINE publishing

Gaining Traction (a game plan)

Are you waiting for the music world to come to you?
Are you waiting to be discovered?

You need to go where your kind of music is happening. And work hard till the pros in the business consider your songs to be great and you to be one of the best writers in the community.

You need to cowrite and pitch constantly.

You need to lift others up and help others out.

You need to get to know people in the biz, be considered their friend, often do favors and rarely ask for favors.

Be a great person to spend 3, 4, 5 or 6 hours with.

Never bitch rant or moan they way things are, were or should be.

Join & participate on SONGU http://www.songu.com/IFS/

Read Songwriting books
A Helluva High Note: Surviving Life, Love, and American Idol [Hardcover]

Your First Cut: A Step-by-Step Guid...iver (Author), Gracie Hollombe (Author)

Six Steps to Songwriting Success, R...d Marketing Hit Songs [Paperback] Blume

The Songwriters Idea Book: 40 Strat...and Keep Your Creative Flow [Hardcover]

Yes, My favorites have always been the ones who managed to entertain my ass off as well as write good songs, but I do think you are right, the average person does not care, so long as they are entertained.

However if a meaningful song happens to find them, they might embrace it, but they wont go looking for it.

The Gavin Degraw song blew my doors off when I first heard it.

Best song I had heard on the radion in a LONG time. That one is not about the lyrics but the intensity.

Yeah, but my point was, should you do all that if it;s not wanted by anyone?

I think that means people are doing it Andy, I dont know if it means thats what the public wants.

Do you think the average music listener would find any stuff on a songwriting forum a great listen? Where they run and tell their friends at school about some song they heard on Forum A?

No, I think the love of the song on forums begins and ends there.

I hear a few songs every year that would be ready for the radio and would be a hit if the right artist recorded it. But I have to agree, what's posted on songwriting forums is not something the under 30 crowd would listen to over and over and over again.

Trends and fads will come and go... but music and songwriting will be with us forever... or at least as long has humans exist. Reminds me of that YouTube video someone posted of the musicians out in the boonies, serenading those cows.

All the best to all of you,

Dave

Songwriting forums...sort of a different topic... :lol:

I think Gregory and Ande are responding to the idea of making money writing for the market, which they always do well with excellent advice. They are correct that one should network, persevere, and adapt one's writing to current trends. But if I'm not mistaken, December is talking about something else: the appreciation by the average Joe of a timeless, perfectly crafted SONG. That's different from a hit. And I would agree that the world is much more interested in current, entertaining hits than they are in timeless songcraft.

Is it just as hard to craft the perfect hit? Yes. Is it different from crafting the perfectly written song? I think so. Sinatra used to advise singers to stick with only the best songs, songs that would transcend currency and stand the test of time. These days, I don't think his advice is good advice anymore.

Songs like, Gordon Lightfoot - If You Could Read My Mind?
I think that is very timeless. For this country at least. I'm not sure how well known he and that song is worldwide.

People want great songs. Listeners want great songs. If you interview them, they'll be able to explain why they like certain songs but they won't always be able to explain what song writers did to make them great. They just categorize & file them away in their brains.

People want songs that move them, that touch them, that make them feel something, that reminds them of emotional events in their lives or feelings they'd love to feel.

Do you think the average music listener would find any stuff on a songwriting forum a great listen? Where they run and tell their friends at school about some song they heard on Forum A?

NO, I think average listeners will find songs they like on the radio, youtube, facebook, tv shows, movies, twitter, & through their friends. Sometimes there's a herd mentality, they like a song because their friends like it. But most people think for themselves, they know what they like, their taste is great & diverse. It's the sound tracks of their lives for all occasions. But maybe just maybe expeceptional, extraordinary amazing music fans might dig a little deeper and search a little harder to find artists like Halie Loren.

I don't think music fans will find a thread here unless there is some exceptionally well written copy with critical key words that cause someone somewhere with a large twitter following to tweet about it. This thread is likely to be drift away among the quiet overlooked back ground buzz of the internet. It is likely to never be a blip on anyones radar, especially Lady Gaga, Katy Perry, Rihanna, Britney Spears, Shakira, Justin Timberlake, Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, Nicki Minaj, Carly Rae Jepsen, & Selena Gomez. No one is likely to ever draw attention to it.

Even non musicians with large followings like Barac Obama, Ryan Lochte, Michael Phelps, Oprah, or Ellen DeGeneres have bigger fish to fry and will probably never find or mention a song like:

Dreamer and Her Dream by Halie Loren

Eventually by Dave Brooks

or My Forever Family that was written to help loving families find and adopt hard to adopt children through programs like the Heart Gallery

Kick Ass (& leave a foot print) by Mez

We Ran Out of Time or

show Me Your O Face

Even though:

"What is this magical medium that moves, enchants, energizes, and heals us? In an instant, music can uplift our soul. It awakens within us the spirit of prayer, compassion, and love. It clears our minds and has been known to make us smarter.

Music can dance and sing our blues away. It conjures up memories of lost lovers or deceased friends. It lets the child in us play, the monk in us pray, the cowgirl in us line dance, the hero in us surmount all obstacles. It helps the stroke patient find language and expression.

Music is a holy place, a cathedral so majestic that we can sense the magnificence of the universe, and also a hovel so simple and private that none of us can plumb its deepest secrets.

Music helps plants grow, drives our neighbors to distraction, lulls children to sleep, and marches men to war. Music can drum out evil spirits, sing the praises of the Virgin Mary, invoke the Buddha of Universal Salvation, enchant leaders and nations, captivate and soothe, resurrect and transform.

Yet it is more than all of these things. It is the sounds of earth and sky, of tides and storm. It is the echo of a train in the distance, the pounding reverberations of a carpenter at work. From the first cry of life to the last sigh of death, from the beating of our hearts to the soaring of our imaginations, we are enveloped by sound and vibration every moment of our lives. It is the primal breath of creation itself, the speech of angels and atoms, the stuff of which life and dreams, souls and stars, are ultimately fashioned." - Don Campbell

Yeah it's like what came first the chicken or the egg?

Did our Sammy Chan's disappear or did the times remove him?

Yeah, but what they think are great songs, and what is a great crafted song varies incredibly.

Well the point I was making is as the say... lyricists on a forum are writing text book type of lyrics, the kind that are deemed acceptable by other songwriters, but mean nothing to the average listener...any more.

I do think if a regular Joe heard "Hey Soul Sister" on a forum ,they would get the word around because it's such an entertaining song with an unforgetable hook...what song was it again? lol

Not a great song but one helluva listen. fun

It's all about hooks and production.

If you go on youtube and read the comments, or on songmeanings.com and read why people like the songs, a lot of it is just that they relate to it some way. Some say, OMG I heard this song when I kissed so and so for the first time.

(so, depending on their relationship status she might love it the rest of her life or hate it and never listen to it again, or love it but its too painful to listen to)

Yeah some of their interptations are conveniently geared towards them lol.

But the only reason they analyze the song is cause they love listening to it, not because they know what a great song is.

Hello DRS, nice to meet you !
Mike Dunbar nailed it (as usual)
Songwriting is probably bigger than ever. Making money from it is dead.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Dreamer and Her Dream by Halie Loren
Ande and Tammy ! Wow, beautiful song ! !

It's big for songwriters, not for listeners, nice to meet u as well.

What folks call a "great song" varies greatly from person to person, methinks.
For instance, I consider
THIS
a great song.
I know that many of you will probably not consider it such: its meaning is not totally clear; it doesn't tell a coherent story. However, I find the lyrical content to work the same way on my conscious as do dreams -- it does NOT mean anything concrete, but it evokes such strong emotional response from me that it's almost real. And I know that I am not the only one to feel this way.
So, some of you may -- objectively -- point to this as the type of song that is "passing" for great songwriting, but is still just crap.
But emotion is not objective.
This is brilliant songwriting, as good as just about anything that Dylan ever did.
But then, that is my opinion.

Like Todd, I like abstract lyrics as well. It gives my imagination more lead way. Easier to personalize.

John

I agree but it's not the typical song lyric a publisher would want.

Nowadays they want a great hook with great production.

Telling a story in a lyric is not mainstream anymore either.

Abstract never was.

Dont forget you guys are musicians and songwriters, you gravitate to things more easily.

Joe Listener just wants to be entertained.

Another argument here may be the argument of "craft" vs. "art".
Again: one can easily argue for somebody as a great crafts(wo)man, as all the pieces are there and easy to point to. But great art is, once again, subjective.
Not that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, but they do not necessarily always coexist, either.
Maybe there are too many (wannabe) artists out there who have not yet learned the craft, or who ignore the craft. But whether or not they are successful is anybody's call.

Thank goodness for that. I don't listen to much country anymore besides Brad Paisley, but there was WAYYYY too much preaching going on in those songs they played on the radio. It turned me off country, that and the look at how country I am type songs that have enveloped the radio.

Yay me, I watch Nascar & eat my chicken fried after I attend church and play a little pick up game of football in the yard after. I am so country that fish automatically jump into my cooler and begged to be clubbed.

Those songs were literally and still are dominant on country radio.

I love my Chicken Fried

I think people learn craft just by doing and listening too.

You dont have to learn from a book, but all the greats learn from somewhere. You can tell this simply from their language, their
chord progressions, the structure.

Just knowing a song needs a chorus is part of the craft.

I think craft is the process we use to display our art. Art doesnt exist until it's put into an organized form, craft is how we do that.


It's also learning literary devices like methapor and similie, and irony, and payoffs and techniques to keep a story interesting.

The art is not learned, the craft is, that's the basic difference to me.

Eva Cassidy's Cd SONGBIRD got incredible reviews, not that she was a writer, but she sure made songs shine

Yep. Chicken Fried. It's masterfully written to the right crowd. Every. Single. Word. And when it goes into the bridge and starts singing about the U.S.A, military, oh my god. Brilliant. I hate the song but damn, the people who wrote that knew exactly how to write it so that it was one of the top songs of the year. So that it wouldn't be forgotten years from then. It was calculated.
I respect that talent. It's hard to come by.

Some people just have the gift and the pulse of a nation.
But god, I hate that song.

That's one of my favourite CD's actually. She was like an angel.

nah this is a writer... his titles alone...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdzKiNtsalQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaQ0J1bfoTA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qKj...;list=AL94UKMTqg-9BtWnijiErf36fqvFt3ss9B

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmea2cRRtio&feature=related

Sounds Irish, nice. I enjoy Flogging Molly.

Well, sounds Irisih. I see he's American.
I enjoy it though, thanks.

the first one has the gaelic touch to it, he basicly has anything u ever heard since elvis in his music. His other songs are quite different.

What a title "you gotta be a Buddha in a place like this"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCGGhQzc-G0&feature=related

Nice. I am going to purchase a few of these off iTunes later.

Heres a starter kit

Dont forget One Guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8-KgFLa1Gs&feature=related

Doomsday Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8-KgFLa1Gs&feature=related

Guy is unbelievable, amazing he aint a star

slow it down a bit, lol how is this guy not a star? Cause great songwriting and performing doesnt count anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyRxk9aEB-w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk-G3MIjMY0&feature=related

I think there are lots of people who want to hear good music and who appreciate good songs, but the bar is high. My local circle of musician friends includes several who are really good songwriters and performers and they are quite successful on a smaller scale. The cream definitely rises to the top.

Check out this video from my friends Jayne and AJ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QE773fa904. The song was recorded in AJ's own studio.

To be successful, I think you have to have the whole package - songs, voice, musicianship, looks, etc. etc. I don't think there is a market for someone who is only good at one aspect - like songwriting. There are simply too many good artists who can write their own material.

And nobody is going to listen to a crummy recording when it is so easy to make a good one in a bedroom studio. Why should they when the standards are so high?

Yeah, that is true either that or be extrmely lucky. Better to be lucky than good.

But this guy Willie Nile, I mean hardly anyone knows him, and he to me is one of the greatest rock songwriters I have ever heard.

He's starting to get his notice now, but he;ll never be rich and famous, but he has a nice career.

I think you can make a living if you work hard and make good music, the chances of making it huge are slim, if this guy cant I know I cant.

He's better than anyone on the radio right now, not sure what else he could do. The one thing against him is hes in his 60's now.

Ever since I started playing music back in the late 50's
I heard people in the business saying "you need a gimmick to get noticed" or
"you need a different sound that stands out from the rest".
Every songwriting star I can think of had that.
Hank williams, Johnny Cash, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, The Who,
Elton John, etc. etc.
They sounded and acted different.
What was also on their side was they could promote their own material because they could sing and play it their way.
The same thing applies today. Nothing has changed.
Do it different.
Vic

No. But, music keeps changing. Styles keep changing. Songwriting is along and well.

There is nothing wrong with staying with the old school music - but there is also nothing wrong with going on the new road.

I am thoroughly enjoying writing "new" style music -
- new country
- teen pop

Certainly different than what I grew up listening to. A lot of fun.

Good music comes in many forms. Things change. I like it that way.