JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Is Songwriting Dead?

DRS, yes you are talking about your tastes and what you like. Just because your observation is thus, does not mean that the observations of others is the same. My observation is entirely different. You act like your observation is something that is objective. It is not. Your observation is subjective.

Tom

Yes, production is much more important now. If the Beatles had access to the technology we have now, they would have used it. High quality production is not a bod thing - it is a good thing. You have it backward.

It ain't December baby - It's spring.

DRS says ------ "She's probably looking for work since her services are no longer helpful to anyone looking to market their music."


Right. It is a new day - new ways.

DRS - you can live in the past if you wish. That will not prevent the world from living in today. The world does not care if you are living back there.

An argument for the continued existence of great songwriting in the new millennium:
Magnetic Fields - "All My Little Words"

And it isn't too far under the surface of the mainstream that you have to dig. These guys regularly sell out 1500-seat venues.

And this song from 1995, which was a HUGE hit in the UK:
Pulp - "Common People"

Neither one may be your "thing", but I do think that the craft and skill are undeniable in both. And both can be easily translated by other artists and into other genres. Isn't that the real mark of a great SONG?

NO, i am NOT talking about tastes. Im talking about the timeless craft of songwriting. I dont jump up and down for "somewhere over the rainbow", even though it;s one of the greastes songs ever recorded.

I dont listen to standards very often, even though by defition they have stood the test of time.

Mincin words.

I see this is personal for you. Dont like a conversation?

BTW, listen to this song written by you, and tell me who is living in the past?

Who is going to record this? Carrie Underwood? It sounds very old school country.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=7554550

The beatles had access to the best recording engineers in the biz, guys much better than they have today, and they had the top producers in the biz.

Difference is they wrote great songs that people are still covering today.

Time to change the subject, how bout them Yankees?

L7 means square, man, square!

I like Neil Young, Elton John.

Tweener pop has had a few strong lyrical songs in the last few years.
Miley Cyrus - The Climb. Demi Lovato - Skyscraper. Carlie Rae Jepsen - Call Me Maybe. Taylor Swift - Love Story.

Today's music is like today's fast foods.Made for fast turnover, to be consumed to ease a hunger, to make a fast buck but with no staying power

Did you time warp yourself into 2020? That would be the only way you could make such a statement. Truth is, nobody knows which songs will be classics in a decade or two from now. Also, not all of it is bad for you. I enjoy a lot of songs from the last thirty years. That doesn't mean I have an unhealthy taste in music.

Songwriting is not dead here at JPF: The Mayor of Kingdom City

Taylor Swift is huge in the U.S but in most parts of the world she really isn't all of that popular. I know someone who went to see her in Toronto last year and about a third of the seats were not filled. She's a very good songwriter and knows her target audience so well though. Justin Bieber (for reasons I'll never understand) is probably the biggest name internationally right now.

Okay this song has been # 1 on U.S billboard top 100 for 9 weeks straight
and there really is no songs right now that can seem to knock it off
Read the lyrics, in your opinion(s), is this a good lyric?

"Carly Rae Jepsen - Call Me Maybe

I threw a wish in the well,
Don't ask me, I'll never tell
I looked to you as it fell,
And now you're in my way

I'd trade my soul for a wish,
Pennies and dimes for a kiss
I wasn't looking for this,
But now you're in my way

Your stare was holdin',
Ripped jeans, skin was showin'
Hot night, wind was blowin'
Where you think you're going, baby?

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

It's hard to look right,
At you baby,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

And all the other boys,
Try to chase me,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

You took your time with the call,
I took no time with the fall
You gave me nothing at all,
But still, you're in my way

I beg, and borrow and steal
Have foresight and it's real
I didn't know I would feel it,
But it's in my way

Your stare was holdin',
Ripped jeans, skin was showin'
Hot night, wind was blowin'
Where you think you're going, baby?

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

It's hard to look right,
At you baby,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

And all the other boys,
Try to chase me,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

Before you came into my life
I missed you so bad
I missed you so bad
I missed you so, so bad

Before you came into my life
I missed you so bad
And you should know that
I missed you so, so bad

It's hard to look right,
At you baby,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

And all the other boys,
Try to chase me,
But here's my number,
So call me, maybe?

Before you came into my life
I missed you so bad
I missed you so bad
I missed you so, so bad

Before you came into my life
I missed you so bad
And you should know that

So call me, maybe?

Yes. It works for its intended purpose. It is successful. The target audience likes it. Justice's teen dancers came over for a practice today and were talking about the song - they really like it but think it has been over-played on the radio.

I like the first verse. It really sings well with a terrrific melody and roll.

Songwriting is not dead, of course. But great songwriting, if not dead, is on life support.

Why? For the same reason that everything that goes to hell goes to hell: Greed.

Many (not all) of the classic songs were written by someone other than who performed them. Then performers discovered they could make more money by writing the songs and getting the writer's cut.

So a very skilled musician and/or vocalist now decides to perform marginal self-written material.

No one thinks this is odd. But imagine what would happen to the quality of motion pictures if actors started writing the scripts.

I know people can start rattling off exceptions - I can think of a bunch myself. But they are still exceptions.

I state this as fact. But, of course, it is only my curmudgeonly opinion

Scott

PS - Thanks Kevin

I agree and I dont even think it's because of writers writing their own, it's because writers copy what came before them, the guys following the beatles had it good, what will the writers who look to Miley Cyrus songs for inspiration and to learn from?

As it goes on down the lines its going to get worse and worse as, the next generation wont know any great songwriters.

I'd like to see what you consider great songwriting and horrible songwriting
and songwriting that is in the middle

Name 5 Great, 5 terrible, 5 in the middle

Please

Its the song that will never shut up. Last week it was on 4 different radio stations all at the same time. I still like it but damn. Play somethinh else radio!

OK, Brother Aaron..I'll bite..just a Wee Bit:

I'd been thinking further on "Great Songs"..'cuz this thread Does make Ya think about it a bit more'n usual.

I've got 4 more besides "Wanted" that I hear regularly-rotated near-daily on Country Stations in Tampa. (I'll skip the Other "Categories" you mentioned, since I mainly REMEMBER the Excellence of these 4/forget The Rest.)

For Starters, "WE ARE GLASS"..penned by Ross Copperman & Jon Nite..at their First writing session..took an hour & a half..(With a chorus that became a bridge & new CH added, later that evening.) Nicely-Duetted by Thompson Square. Impressive Poetic Lyrics, Elegant Music, Great Production.

Next, "FLY-OVER STATES", Sung Well by Jason Aldean, penned by Neil Thrasher & Michael Delaney. I've been thru that Heartland by Car..& Plane..(Even met that Hot Texas Gal that's Mentioned in it)...and it's a CLASSIC. If there ever was one. A song to be Proud-of.

"YOU DON'T KNOW HER LIKE I DO" Penned & Sung by Brantley Gilbert. One HELL of a Fine "Torch Song"...(& when's the last time ya heard a Country Song with a CAESURA in it????)

Lastly, "DRUNK ON YOU"...Which really Shoulda Been Titled "HIGH ON SUMMERTIME" but the writers, Rodney Clauson, Josh Kear, & Chris Thompson prolly figured (right) that radio stations wouldn't play anything with "HIGH" in the Title. Lyrically, it's got the Kids' Ear from Line One's "..Speakers go BOOM-BOOM"...& it's so Finely-Crafted SO-FAR none of the "Let's Protect The Kids" Set has been bitchin' about the line that reads "Drips of honey on the moneymaker gotta be the best buzz I'm gonna find"... Luke Bryan sings it ALL to Perfection...& it DOES provide one of the Best Summer Buzz Songs I've heard in Ages (& stretches that Envelope...quite nicely too!)

Good Crafty Songwriting...all of 'em...in my book...Quite Alive & Kicking!

Best Wishes & Big Hugs,
Stan

First define great. I like all kinds of songs from abstract Pink Floyd to, great storytelling like many old country artists, great economy of words songs like the standards which look so easy to write. To Hit Songs that tell us whats going on in the world etc.

I like angst ridden lyrics like in punk rock and many rock songs that dont seem to be about any one thing.

Songs where the message moves me and I can relate to

Or songs that dont say anything at all. There are many ways to be great.

And thats just lyrics...

But thats one thing, when we speak of great CRAFTED songs, that will be different than my favorites.

The craft encompasses everything from economy of words, to clear message, to structure, use of literary devices, songs that speak to human emotions, songs that have a universal appeal.

Songs that seem like they were never written, they come out so smooth and natural they seem like they were always there, uncontrived, while being contrived.

It's kind of like the details of a painting, the attention to all the details.

And songs where the lyric and music match perfectly. As if they were made for each other, so they come across as genuine and authentic, not something made up.

But I'll give u a list if u want it. from different genres

I wont go too far back u might get lost lol
well stick with pop/rock

Great:

Eleanor Rigby (not just for the lyrics and melody, but for what the song represents, there is a section of sociology called "ritualism" Eleanor rigby is about ritualism.

Piano Man (perfect song, he completely nails the scene at the bar, most musicans have had somebody ask them "what are you doing here?

Desperado (a song that paysoff like a country song at the end... you better let somebody love you etc)

Empty Garden (Elton John and Bernie use a metaphor of a of garden and gardener to describe John lennon and his death,)

a homer pick, Springsteen, Thunder Road.

of course to the REAL songwriters even these are not the greatest.

5 Terrible Songs?

Right Said Fred, Im too sexy for my shirt?
Pick a Katie Perry or rhianna song.


In Between?

sometimes when we touch, great song just old.
Coward of the county, great song really, seems dated now.
Money For Nothing, great song, but many wont credit it as being it.
Jesus take the Wheel
Every Breath you Take, (a ton of craft in there if u look for it)

Now give me yours.

Don't know any of those, but I'll listen to a few. I've seen Fly Over States on the net, I'll give it a try. Jason Aldean is a pretty good person.

As for them thinking the radio wouldn't play a song with "high" in the title.. maybe they are right, or wrong but I think that's ridiculous considering the content of country songs these days isn't really what christian people would consider moral. But hey, I guess they thought it'd be too risque. To each their own.

You can only define what is great for you.

Your list is interesting though. Empty Garden & Piano Man, of course, are kick ass songs.

I like Katy Perry & Rihanna, but it's alright if you don't

Let me see for my list. (I don't think I could give a detailed reason for each, but give a few a try)

Some of these will be fairly new. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy older music from the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s too but I've moved on. I'll listen to those about 20 % of the time. 90s to now get most of my attention.


GREAT

The Barenaked Ladies - When I Fall
Tracy Chapman - Fast Car
Ben Folds - The Luckiest
Matthew Good Band - The Fine Art Of Falling Apart
Eminem ft Dido - Stan

IN THE MIDDLE
Yellowcard - City Of Devils
Staind - Outside
Kelly Clarkson - Dark Side
Relient K - Apathetic Way To Be
Theory Of A Deadman - Bitch Came Back

TERRIBLE
Rebecca Black - Friday
Justin Bieber - Baby
Pitbull - I Know You Want Me
LMFAO - Sexy And I Know It
Tim Mcgraw - Truck Yeah

But are you going by what you like, or great crafted songs?

You probably would do well to read a book on the craft of songwriting.

Once u learn it, u will see its not about what u like, its what has alot of craft in it and what doesnt.

Most books today are about recording and how to market your songs, I guess they assume everybody owns the stuff on writing good songs.

Your title is about a craft, your choice of words is about craft, a love song with a high school kid in it, will use different language than an older person.

Every critique u read her eis somebody picking someone elses brain about their craft.

The point of view, the meter, the development, the structure.

It will help your writing to learn about the craft, not many of us are naturals, gotta learn somewhere.

Are you seriously telling me I don't know how to craft a song?
I'm not a professional or anything but my songs aren't crap.
And I've read many books, listened to many songs. I know what is a greatly crafted song and what isn't. Geez man.

anything? yes, but your list of songs are not very well crafted songs, they might be good songs etc.

U dont write much of anything so it's hard to tell.

Im working on this myself, no offense meant.

Good Luck.

The singer is a window washer and is contemplating jumping off the scaffolding. 9.8 straight down refers to the speed of which an object will fall. It's a pretty deep song. It's very depressing once you understand it. I mean, this guy is so depressed, he wants to jump off the scaffolding but is afraid to because there is a chance he might survive the fall.

hey Fast Car is a terribly crafted lyric.

Makes no sense whatsoever.

But I LOVE the song.

I do a lot of writing. I just don't go around showing everybody. I've learned a lot from people by getting critiques. I don't believe I need my songs critiqued anymore as I go over them dozens of times until I'm satisfied. I've taken what I've been told the last 8 years and it's part of how I write now. If you're still working on this I can be of some help.

Well, I disagree. What is a greatly crafted song is subjective.
There is no unanimous song out there where everyone will agree is brilliantly crafted. There just isn't.

if your NOT still working on it, I cant help you.

Well, oh well then, my loss. Peace.

No but your songwriting opinion is based on everything that you listen to, you cant be subjective if you dont listen to other stuff.

If Fast Car is one of the greatest songs ever crafted, in your opinion, that doesnt bode well.

Like what U like, I do, but craft is craft.

we finally agree.

I listen to a lot of music. Pop, Rock, Rap, Hip Hop, Blues, Country, Dance, Electronic, Metal, Punk, Instrumental. I know so many songs off by heart, you wouldn't believe. I am musically obsessed. I've been to dozens of concerts. Trust me when I say I listen to music.

I didn't say Fast Car was one of the greatest songs ever crafted.
But in my book it is a greatly crafted song.

Say what you want about my book though. I'm fairly confident I know what I'm doing.

lol, you put it under your great list.

It doesnt matter how good of a songwriter u are to me, nobody is really great here, but you dont want to learn anything.

Why do you hang on a songwriting site with no desire to learn?

I've been on songwriting sites for nearly 8 years. There's only so much you can learn from the very kind people whom critique songs.
If I posted a lyric here I would already know what they were going to say is the part that needs to be worked on. I'm at the point now where I already notice what doesn't work. That's all.
Took years to get here, a lot of peoples help with critiquing and a lot of rewrites.

I rewrote I Take This Beer 20 times before I let it be.

You should all quit whining about the lack of great songs and go and write one.......

Everybody here is probably at that point, they post anyway to share their songs. I can undertstand u from that standpoint.

Just seems like you are more interested in current events and astronomy.

It's all good.

Justin Bieber (for reasons I'll never understand) is probably the biggest name internationally right now.



Because he's cute and little girls love me.

I repeat:
Great songwriting is not dead, just dig a little bit into the underground. It's there; alive and well.
Please see my examples on the previous page.

Also, this from 2004:
Nick Cave - "Breathless"


As beautiful a lyric as has ever been written.

Reads more like a poem than a lyric. I agree it's beautiful.

8 years ago, and it's not the norm.

No one asked if it's the norm, just if it's dead.
It's not dead.

And if 8 years ago is too long ago, here's something from this year:
Kelly Hogan - "We Can't Have Nice Things"

And this:
Cate Le Bon - "Puts Me to work"

Im asking now, is it the nor,

Not overly impressed by that one. Kinda vague, well crafted songs are specific not vague.

Glad there is still music you like though.

It is curious to me how when things change there are always some people who bemoan that things are going to hell. Always happens. The good thing is that nobody who counts cares.

dad: "This new music is terrible - just a bunch of noise - the lyrics don't mean anything - just a bunch of trash - now back in my day ..........."

son: "Gee dad these guys are cool. They are from Liverpool..."

dad: "Just a groups of mop-haired kids who don't know anything about music........."