JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback MP3 Feedback Forum Do you all want GENRE boards?

Folks,

We've tried for many years to keep folks together rather than segregate things, but it may be time to try to offer different areas so that people who do primarily Country Music can focus on that while those who do Pop, Rock, Rap, Jazz etc. can have their own areas. It's pointless to rehash people's negative opinions about entire genres and I want to shift from negativity to productivity.

JPF as an entire group is made up of about 5-8% Country music makers. The rest fall into one or more of 99 other genres. Yet on the board it seems to be about 85% Country (or similar to Country) and just a sampling of all other genres. I want Rockers or Rappers or Pop artists or Jazz and Electronic music makes to feel comfortable and find supportive help here.

So what do you all think?

Brian

I don't see any reason to split the lyric boards up by genre -- I think lyrics are mostly non-denominational (ha, ha).

For MP3's: I'd leave it as is also, BUT if you have to split it out, then here are a few potential boards:

1.) Country and Americana (folk, alt-country, etc).
2.) Indie Rock/pop
3.) Top 40 (stuff on the radio)
4.) Music Library
5.) Adult Contemporary and/or Jazz
6.) Misc Genres

If you break it into genres where do you stop? What is the reason for this? Are folks complaining that the country stuff crowds them out?

Hey Brian,

Yeah, I think it would be a good idea to split the mp3, but perhaps only 3 ways. How about...

1.Country and Americana (folk, alt-country, etc). including acoustic singer song-writer
2. Pop/Rock Indie and Top 40 i.e. commercial and produced music
3. Adult contemporary including Jazz and instrumentals



Kevin - I think probably it just gives everyone "somewhere to go". If you're an electronic musicican for example, and land on the mp3 board, there is very little there for you to coment upon. I think the idea is to get a more diverse representation of what JPF does ?

cheers, niteshift

I agree with Kevin's last statement. I actually think I would be less inclined to listening to some music if it were split up--as now I tend to listen to most things that are posted since it's handy. I know once I've looked through one lyric board, I tend NOT to go to another. I'm sure there are many opinions on this, as people have different habits and different likings.

I feel what would be more "helpful" is to have more room within the "Topic Title" for stating music genres--as some song titles are too long to allow that feature. Having the option with the "Topic Title" for short comments about updates or changes made as a result of comments or crits I think would create better and more "follow-up." This feature could be implemented by the use of a drop-box to click onto. This would allow the songwriter to announce updates or changes that have been made, or to ask for additional requests. Maybe a "flag" on the title to announce changes or updates instead of drop-box. This may also reinforce the sharing of ideas and better critiquing as I think many folks making sugs don't get back to see their own sugs that may have been implemented. Just some ideas......

Personally I enjoy several genres of music, and would rather not have to visit segregated forums. But being able to more clearly recognize a "genre" with the song title should allow "surfers" to zero-in on their interests. I also think more obscure "genres" would get much less views once isolated.

steady-eddie.

I think some form of this would be a good idea. It would be easy to change the names of the existing three lyric boards. Probably not too difficult to split the mp3 board into 4 or 5 genres.

I think one of the goals should be to get more participation from younger members. I can see how they would soon lose interest in a negative discussion by a bunch of grumpy old men. I am not sure how to separate the genres to accomplish that......maybe it should be traditional (classic rock or country), modern (rap, pop), jazz/instrumental, singer/songwriter and other.

Colin

Colin makes a good point from a different perspective about generating more interest with the youth--the "future of any business or venture." I would agree, but also think improving the purpose of the forum's design is also beneficial--so maybe you all can find the "formula" that best benefits the interested parties as well as investing in the future success of the forums and JPF in gerneral.

steady-eddie -- just another "grumpy old man."

Another idea may be to seperate into worktapes and sketches, demo's and finished material. That way each category gets the specific help it needs. Not genre specific, but may be not so daunting when you're a noob, and your first song is sitting next to a pro demo.

cheers, niteshift

No!

The web opens up the entire world to people - who then often seek out places where everyone thinks the same way they do. Please don't contribute to this!

Just one opinion

Scott

Colin's point about young writers is a good one. I believe it extends to other cases as well. When you have, for example, country writers criticizing rap writers and vice versa, personal feelings about the genre itself emerge, which are of no help at all to the writer. This extends beyond song criticisms, there are many cases where someone from, let's say, the modern pop field wants to have a discussion about some element of their field and the discussion turns into a criticism about their genre itself.

In the real world, music is split into genres. I'll bet there is a only a fairly small segment here who have rap, country, reggae, electronica, old school r&b and bluegrass in their music collections or among their listening habits. Of those folks who do, I doubt if they discovered those genres here, so they must have actively sought out diversity among the real world segregation. That could continue here. Additionally, it would give home to those who have no interest at all in other genres.

Then, finally, there is the educational value. Universities have departments for a reason. The pedagogy of medicine is quite different than that of literature, and for good reason. Being able to focus on the idiosyncrasies of one's field makes progress easier and faster.

Now of course, there can be great value in having an open mind and in exploring things our of your norm or even your comfort zone. But that does not have to be abandoned. There could still be forums that mix it up, perhaps that focus on recording technique, or my preference, that focus simply on diversity. But, there are also those "specialists" who would actually lose something by adding too much of another genre to their style. Imagine John Prine doing a Kanye West style song.

Overall, I believe that writers having a sort of "free zone" where they won't find their genres being disparaged and can focus on improving and sharing among like minded artists would improve our our group, make it more welcoming and, ironically, increase our diversity.

Couldn't have said it any better.

Absolutely agree with Mike's points on diversity and the "Free Zone"


.

Considering the many genres of music,e.g.,Pop, Jazz, Classical, Country, Rap, Latin, World, Folk, Electronic, Reggie, Rock, Blues, New Age, etc…, it would probably be best to include the five most popular genres, then have one titled “Anything Else” to cover the rest. I'd probably spend most my time in "Anything Else".

Personally, I think JPF is set up pretty darn good the way it is. Perfect for my taste.

John

If you're going to do this, you might want to take things one step further and divide things up between people who:
(A) Would just like to share their work.
(B) Only want pats on the back and praise.
(C) Are open to constructive criticisms that will help them grow as writers.

You can probably delete the Video forum. Unanswered posts sit there for weeks (or months) at a time.

P.S. Mike Dunbar for President!

I know I've "tooted" my horn a couple of times here, but with the ongoing dialog and "brainstorming," I think it is important for each of us that care about this subject to be vocal.

I love what Kurt said and have learned already that there are those that need and just want pats or share their work--and that is fine. I think songwriters in their intro should specify a bit what they are looking for as well--which helps. There could be check boxes that ask those questions as to what feedback a songwriter is looking for in aa abreviated menu.

Mike, what you say is so accurate and makes a lot of sense in theory and from an organizational approach. One thing that I've come to believe is that "social networkers" are not customers however, and I'm a little concerned that if you try and please everyone, that you may risk the "whole" being degraded. Sometimes "simple" is better--having said that, I'm not saying that changes won't improve or enhance our current system.

Brian's basic question is about whether separate forums are needed, I realize; and thus far from what I've heard, I'm leaning to maybe having (3)catagories, but as with many things, the "proof will be in the pudding."

steady-eddie

I like change. I don't see any potential damage that would happen with genre classifications, but I do wonder if the goals you wish to achieve will be accomplished by the change. Here are a few things to keep in mind as you make your decision.

-The majority of posts and reviews still appear to be coming from a relatively small core group of diehard, forum-loving JPF members. Many of them (us) tend to navigate via the What's Going On box, or the New Posts link. Although many of us may prefer only a particular genre, there is no guarantee that splitting the forums into genres will deter such navigators away from out-of-genre forums anyway, so chances are they may end up wherever the link leads, and they may still critique the genre rather than the song.

-Lyric board 3 taught us that people like to post where the traffic is. Even though you might expect most people to naturally choose the first one first, they didn't...they mainly went to #3. Why? Because that's where the crowd was. It makes me wonder which is more appealing to most writers: MORE reviews or BETTER reviews? Although the proposed change appears to be designed to deliver BETTER (more genre-appropriate) reviews, I have a hunch that what most people really crave is MORE reviews. At least that's what our natural posting behavior seems to indicate. So people may still post--or review--wherever the action is.

-Is there anyone worse than the writer at identifying a song's genre? I doubt it.

Well said Mark, well said.

steady-eddie.

Yeah, Mark is probably right. You can change the JPF forums, but you can’t change the eccentricities of it's members. A stubborn bunch they are.

John

I agree whole heartedly with this quote! Also I am exposed to many different genres of music on this one board, and I may never venture to these different rooms to seek songs out. The other end is split boards = far less feedback. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

Todd

I agree with Scott and Todd. I enjoy interacting with and hearing from a lot of folks on the mp3 board. I think setting up genre specific forums would delute the pool, so to speak. I don't know how many would take the time to discover what is going on outside of their particular genre.

One thing I'd rather not see is where we have a forum for more advanced production quality vs. more scratch productions and demos. The former tends to focus more on production prowess over time and the art of the song itself is lost. I think most of us can look past the facade of the production value and appreciate the songs themselves and hear in their heads what it might sound like if fully produced. There are some here that don't perhaps possess the equipment or the experience to make great sounding recordings but are still legitimate lyrical poets and even compose melodies/progressions that are compelling. I'd hate to have to wade through a myriad of various forums to check everything out when my time and attention span might be limited.

If they are all there on the same page I can at least be notified by visiting one forum under one roof that Scott Campbell, for instance, or a host of others have a new song up when I may have skipped over them otherwise.

Just my 2 cents worth but now that I've said it...The great and powerful Oz has spoken.

Stevie

As I said in the Gen forum. The secret is Traffic..traffic..traffic.

What other songwriting web site has this kind of traffic?

Stay with the model or lose traffic.

Just a warning.

Other sites have tried this, JPF is simple and simple is best.

Then you have me... I don't sing or play any instruments, I write. If I think it's ready to go, I send it off and have someone produce it that knows what they are doing.. i.e., my songs that I post are basically professional demos. I do, however, listen to a whole lot of songs in the MP3 forum that aren't what I write (country) so I'm exposed to other genres and that's not a bad thing! It all starts with the song and that's what I try to key on.

We also seem to have a core of probably 20 folks who regularly visit this forum and comment/critique, or post songs. If some of those start posting in a different forum, we most likely won't know it, then we have lost the connection we've established with them (the social aspect). Stevie and Doug (Christian) and John (classical intrumental) come to mind quickly. Calvin, well he's got his own genre, would need a Calvin forum!

Anyway, I like the forum as is. If you don't care for a song's presentation musically, it takes about 20 seconds to figure that out and move on to the next one. Rock on JPF!!! :)))) scotty

I agree, we need a Calvin forum.

i never know where some of my stuff should fall anyway,maybe the cut-out bin!I have a hard time trying to figure out what genre some of my songs should be put in when i download it on soundclick so i'm not for splitin' up!Mike

Rather than split it up, why not make Genre part of the posting process. There may be some younger people that feel alienated that there aren;t more opportunities on here for them. When I had my songs pitched through Sharp Objects in Nashville, you realize that the musical picture can be painted in a myriad of ways. Everyone sees it differently. Even though the average writer on here may be a touch older, they have a lifetime of experience and stories. There are many on here adept at the home studio technology. There is a wealth of talent, and information on here for those willing to use it, young or old. I may be a Baby Boomer, but I know my way around home recording as good as most , This forum is what you make of it. All genres should be accepted by all. It is our craft. Even if we don't like or understand it, each style has it's own validity-Bobby

Well stated, Bobby.

Stevie

Hi Guys, I am going to reprint my response from the General Board so anyone who misses it there sees it here:
--------------------------------
Folks,

For many years I was solidly in the camp with Todd (about not separating genres). But after asking for some advice from a trusted friend, he strongly suggested the genre idea. I am open to any variation or set up. If we do it, I think it would be something like:

MP3 Feedback Forum: Country, Christian and Similar Genres
MP3 Feedback Forum: Pop, Rock, Rap, R&B, Electronic Genres
MP3 Feedback Forum: All Other Genres

Lyric 1: Finished Lyrics & Lyrics Looking for Music: No Critiques
Lyric 2: Pro Lyrics Looking for Hardcore Feedback
Lyric 3: Developing Writers Looking For Educational and Developmental Help and Feedback

Video 1&2: (We need some volunteers to find videos of creative or super talented indie artists or classic videos to show how it's done well. Video is more important than EVER before, even the dawn of MTV, because it's the way artists can be discovered by people around the world and any serious developing artist needs a quality video and there are many approaches that are affordable and achieve the goal of really presenting the artist in a positive way). I think Video 1 would be JPF only videos and Video 2 would be non JPF videos. I think having interesting videos posted at least 1 per day, even if V2 would just be a funny one to check out, might help traffic.

I'd also like to work on finding ways to get painters, photographers, graphic artists, screenwriters, short story writers, novelists and any other creative endeavor involved. We have plenty of talent among existing members to start off like Scott Campbell used to share his photo tips and Jean's son used to post his graphic work.

The bottom line on all of this is that we need to compete with things that take our members time AND we need to stop having the same old arguments against commercial music and start developing the skills to reach audiences of small and larger sizes. We can use videos of other people, including non JPF members, who do it well, or even who do it poorly, and break this stuff down to help people expand their audiences. Not how to become a rock star, but rather how to become a writer or artist that will attract more fans.

And with my health issues, I really need HELP from the community more than ever before. If you all would like a fun, vibrant and growing community here, I need you to help me create the environment to help make that happen.

So I am open to suggestions. I certainly could use some volunteers to help me. But volunteering means nothing if you don't actually do something. Surely folks have a few minutes to help bring our community back to where it was a few years ago before Facebook and Twitter took over the world.

Anyone with me?

Brian

Ben,

We're not losing traffic to other music message boards, we're losing it to Facebook and Twitter because people don't see the benefit of using a message board as a way to communicate. They don't want the depth etc.

Scotty,

We have a LOT more than 20 people who are here regularly. It's your comment that worries me the most. We need folks to interact with more than the same 20 people or we may as well shut down. JPF has 50K members on our email list. Our last music awards saw 42K albums sent in from over 30K different people. We've featured over 16K artists at one of our live shows and had over 25K members come to a live JPF event not even counting cities where we've had chapters over the years and all their activities. The message board used to see 5K people log in a day. We had one occasion where 1456 people were on the board at the same time (our all time record high). The idea that some think only 20 people exist here, or the truth that we rarely have more than 60 people logged in at one time with another 100-400 additional unregistered (or members who haven't logged in) people reading posts here is problematic. As I type this at 9:20 US Eastern Time, we have 28 Registered, 8 registered but choosing to be hidden and 142 non registered people on the boards. We also have another 2984 people on the rest of the JPF site. Those numbers are near what we used to have back in the late 90's before Facebook and Twitter and when we only had a few thousand members. Compare all this to the fact that we had 680 paid attendees at our last music awards from over two dozen countries around the world and another 2 dozen US states who flew in to be there. We averaged 30-40 performers per show and 100 people in the audience. We had many shows where we hit 70 performing acts (including over 50 full bands at one show) and over 350 people all directly connected with JPF (rather than fans) in the audience. I've met over 25K JPF members face to face over the years.

So.. we can do MORE to get people out. I don't want to be a site which exists so 20 friends can chat among themselves and that's what I pay all this money for. (And we've never been THAT small even in the early days). We need to be more welcoming to others and offer something of use and value to get people to invest the time, which is far harder than getting their money (which is why FB is so valuable to people who track their every action and make money from it.. but that's another topic). It's fine to have friends. But that's for an individual. We need to create a community site and experience and involved hundreds and thousands like we used to.

Brian

Hi Brian,

One thought -- back in 2007, you asked everyone to post their real names. While I think it was a great idea (and still do), I wouldn't be surprised if we lost traffic because of that. Maybe it's traffic from people you wouldn't want anyway, but traffic nonetheless, if you're just looking at gross figures. I know that you can still sign on using a fake name, but the expectation is to use your real name.

I have two friends who wouldn't sign on because I asked them to use their real names and they didn't want to immediately get "that involved." I have no doubt that, once they got used to the place, they would start using their real names, but somehow using your real name at first seems like a commitment, or even kind of scary for a woman. When I first stumbled upon the site in 2006, I think I used "lgundling" and even that made me nervous at the time. However, once I'd been here a while, then I was fine.

I think that JPF is lovely, just the way it is.

Lisa

Brian, you misunderstood what I was saying. There are no doubt a lot more than 20 people that log in and all and use other forums. I was saying that the MP3 forum seems to have the same people commenting and critiquing, I'm sure others visit but don't comment. You can tell that by the number of times a post is read vs. comments posted and/or times that your song is "hit" on Soundclick, Reverb, etc. Whatever is decided, I'm here to stay!! :))) scotty

Brian, the problem I see with your proposal is identifying who and what JPF is. Are the forums all you want JPF to be? We are not Twitter or Facebook. Will adding more attract additional traffic or simply dilute the content of what we already have? Will a person get the same amount of feedback posting a song on one of four/five boards as they are currently getting by simply posting on MP3? I know that there are some people who only post/read lyric 1 boards, never going to lyric 2 or 3. By adding more do we get better?

The fast food industry, something I know a bit about, does the same by adding more and more to their menus trying to attract new visits. The end result is the kitchen can’t handle all the new products, and speed and quality suffers. By offering more they forgot why their guests were coming in for the first place; speed.

I do think some deep down revision would be good for your site and attract more followers, but they should only be done once it’s identified what JPF is all about. Right now the home page is filled with news from 2009 and our chapters are for the most part nonexistent. JPF needs to be out there! We have to offer a service/ or a result that people can’t get anywhere else.

For me personally, this would possibly make this board not work for me and that makes me sad.

I work in all genres. I have songs that cross genres. I do background vocals, I once had a country song, a folk song, a pop song and a children's song all on the board at the same time. How would I keep up with all of that?

Where would I post my children's songs?

How would I get more professional folks or even folks who have listened to me and commented before to listen to my songs and give me advice if they are only posting in one genre and never come to look in the genre my song is posted in?

If JPF was set up this way when I first began, I never would grown. Being exposed to many types and styles of music has opened my eyes and has been so inspirational.

One of the things I dislike about Soundclick is that it forces me to catagorize my music, somtimes in a pre-collaborative state, I'm not a hundred percent sure what genre the song will sit best in.

I can find a Michael LeBlanc lyric that he is doing as a cajun country style song and re-do it into a whole new genre, but it is only because we are on a mixed board where we are exposed to each others music.

The issue here is more that the amateurs are on this board and you want the more professional folks to come here. If we turn them away from wanting to join by the way things are, then can't they have their own place, a totally pro MP3 thread so that they don't get their ears assaulted by our amateur attempts?

For me, this mixed MP3 board is where I have learned so much about so many things. I don't want my mentors seperated from me.

Another example is the Muse, they have a seperate thread for Instrumentals. I haven't been there in months, I only have time for the songs board, but I love listening to Instrumentals, but to be honest, I sometimes forget about it....that would be like saying that John Schick will be put into Instrumentals, I would be so busy tracking my songs in each seperate catagory, I would lose track of him, his songs....that doesn't make me very happy at all.

Tammy

As for your suggestions

MP3 Feedback Forum: Country, Christian and Similar Genres
MP3 Feedback Forum: Pop, Rock, Rap, R&B, Electronic Genres
MP3 Feedback Forum: All Other Genres

=> I don't see a need for splitting up this forum as long as there is not way too much traffic, i.e. that single posts would 'go under' too fast

Lyric 1: Finished Lyrics & Lyrics Looking for Music: No Critiques
Lyric 2: Pro Lyrics Looking for Hardcore Feedback
Lyric 3: Developing Writers Looking For Educational and Developmental Help and Feedback

=> how about a 'generic' Collab Forum? I often write lyrics to other people's music. That could be a good grazing ground for me ;-)

=> PRO versus 'developing writer' - I wouldn't find myself there. I wouldn't call myself a pro since I don't make money with writing lyrics (none to speak of), on the other hand I've written lyrics since 12 years on a hobby basis.

For my personal benefit separating "country" from "everything else" would actually suffice. I read the posts saying that sometimes lyrics were used for quite unexpected genres (and it happened to several of my own lyrics as well). On the other hand typical pop lyrics (or R&B) are VERY different from country 'requirements'.

A different approach could be requiring the posts to be qualified as to their genre or the genre they are meant for.

I think that if you are looking to re organize the forum either in threads, or in its community, there's lots you could do.

Forum software is merely a tool that organizes discussions into nice categories, so that if you look at an overview, or "drill down", you can "access" what you like.

So changes in labels and in the organization of discussion threads is the easy part

But I think what Brian is getting at is to engage a larger community in a wider variety of ways, when he's asking about the MP3 page and its possible categories

I like where you're heading with that taxonomy Brian because it highlights something. The MP3 forum is organized information, the second, Lyric forum is activity

MP3 Feedback Forum: Country, Christian and Similar Genres
MP3 Feedback Forum: Pop, Rock, Rap, R&B, Electronic Genres
MP3 Feedback Forum: All Other Genres

Lyric 1: Finished Lyrics & Lyrics Looking for Music: No Critiques
Lyric 2: Pro Lyrics Looking for Hardcore Feedback
Lyric 3: Developing Writers Looking For Educational and Developmental Help and Feedback


You need to figure what assets and strengths you have that you can lever through....both against the Facebooks and on line music communities

I also like the "activity" include, for example, class rooms and collaboration rooms and more "rooms" that bring people and groups together. I would not worry too much about technology. You want them talking and organizing and deciding here, and using "what is out there", to do it and share it. Down the road you might have people working on a musical together and drawing on all the creative talent in its many formats here. And its all on a file in Dropbox

Hmm.... difficult question.

I guess it's thinking about the desired outcome and how to achieve it for the most benefit. i.e engagement and diversity

For me ? I joined JPF about 6 yrs ago and was inspired by a whole bunch of people, where "place' didn't count. Not having gone near music for 10 yrs it was very refreshing to be involved with a non judgemental bunch of folks who take the whole business as it comes and mix it up where need be. It got me interested in the arts again, and a realisation that art in itself is the driving force.

In doing so, I re-ingaged professionally and things are going well.

The concept of "lets all muck in together" is one which I fully support, but is one that has it's problems in that a more experienced person may get the impresssion that on the mp3 board, everyone is just starting out, which is not the case.

There are guys here who have MAJOR credits, but the impression been given to a noob is that it's all just self indulgent indies ( of a mature age ) pissing in the wind.

And nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm not too sure whch way things should be done, but I AM sure on the fact that without more engaement to the music community at large, and without envolvement and interaction, then JPF will stagnate to old farts like myself, whose intrenched ways are a burden on those trying to move foward.

cheers, niteshift

PS - as support for the "all in" argument or a split view for that matter,, I'll offer up this thread here , a lyric viewed by Tams, who went away and sung a tune to it, pitch perfect, then sang it a capalle, then I put musical backing in, got an arrangement, here then I asked Mr Dunbar to provide bass ( your link is missing Mike to the final tune ) and it gets 6 and 1/2 thousand views on an obscure outback bulliten board.

Why ? Becaue the process is interesting and folks will pick up upon the content which interests them.

Hi Brian,

I understand the fear of some who believe that by making some changes that we will lose what's special about JPF, but I also agree with you in that JPF has to find a way to engage and bring in new members and compete with other forums for Artists time.

John has some great ideas! I would love to see some of those things
incorporated on the boards.
Maybe we could find a way to bring in Pro Writers that can teach a Master Class, on Lyrics or Musical Arrangements.

Maybe we could all pay an affordable fee to participate.
Maybe someone here can volunteer their time teaching a Master Class that's music or art related.
Maybe a Pitch to Publishers night.
Group Critique night.
Maybe Group Collab night once a week.

There are a number things that could be done to give JPF even more added value.
Maybe some of us could take a newbie under the wing for a couple of weeks and coach them or mentor them on something we are expert in.

There has to be some kind of draw that will attract people who have aspirations on being signed to a Major label or Songwriter who wants to reach the goals of having their Song cut by a Major Artist or Published by a Major Publisher.
If we can just begin by asking ourselves what is the best way to go about it?
How can we make this work?

Labeling Music Boards will help you FIND what you are looking for, it will make it easier and it will also Challenge some to look outside of the Genres they stick so tight to.

A Collab Corner would be a great idea!

I would personally love to see Harriet Shock become a permanent Mentor on this Board. She is so fantastic in what she does.
I felt I learned so much from her..
I think it's a real shame that more us did not participate enough to keep it going.
We had someone really special involved in this forum, that was unlike any other and I really would like to see her here a lot more.
I'm with you and willing to help!-Dana

I'm new here and I know what they say about opinions, But I think categorizing might be a good thing. Especially, if you don't know what genere your music is or if it straddles a couple different genres. Feedback on categorizing songs may help alot. Just my humble opinion.

EJ

I've often thought that the JPF Forum should be a natural resource for young indie artists looking for songs to record. Genre boards could make it easier for artists or producers doing a song search.

Also discussion boards for specific genres could be helpful. As it is, when people want to discuss something concerning a specific genre it is posted under a general heading. The discussion often turns to criticism and defense of the genre itself, and many times the criticism is by folks who are not even active in that genre. That's unfair to people who are trying to share and collaborate. I wonder how many potential ideas have been stifled? Specific genre discussion boards, with a reminder that criticizing or comparing entire genres should be done in general topic boards, may allow folks the freedom to discuss facets of their interests without having to waste their time defending the interest itself.

Perhaps categorized boards might have a sticky thread that helps define each genre and its sub-styles and even provide links to recorded examples. That could help songwriters and artists to expand their musical understanding and appreciation.

re Mike Dunbar ------ yea, what he said

I think that Facebook and Twitter may be taking the chit chat away from JPF, but there is little or no song analysis or songwriting advice on FB and Twitter. There is probably a lot of songwriting advice on YouTube however.

JPF's strength IMHO is the analysis of songwriting and the educational aspects of same. A dialog between the songwriters and their peers is terrific and occurs only on songwriting boards like this one. If you want to badmouth a politician however, FB and Twitter are better vehicles. Naturally there are relationships that develop and off-topic discussions can overwhelm the purpose of the boards. Threads on the state of the music industry and the world often have more posts than the song review threads.

I am in favor of trying something new - you can always go back if it doesn't work out.

I think having different genre forums is a good idea and will draw in those genres. Having genre specific discussion boards is also an interesting idea.

One thing I would change about the Lyric board setup you are suggesting is Lyric 2: Advanced Lyrics Looking for Hardcore Feedback. It will be interesting to see how people rate their lyrics.

Lisa,

We don't require anyone to use their real names. But we all know that it's better for everyone involved if you're dealing with real people using their real name. People are more cautious about what they say and do when they use their real name. Sure, some folks still fake it and some still use silly names that aren't real, but we also don't trust those folks nor do we EVER give them the benefit of the doubt when a problem arises. They are ghosts, not real people when they are anonymous. They might be a 15 year old boy or a 72 year old lady or anyone in between. Most are harmless, but a small number are VERY destructive. In truth, I'd say probably 10 psychotics have come here and caused major trouble with multiple names and IDs and I know at least one of them is still here hiding out as someone else. It's sad a few mentally ill people cause trouble, but they do. I think our board is better since people started using real names. In most cases we are able to verify who they really are over time so the fakers eventually are exposed and run off yet again. Your friends could easily come here, send me a PM and let me know their concerns and we'd either find them a pseudonym or an alias of some type to use no problem. We have some people right now who do that very thing. For a long time we had 2 very famous artists who used to come here under aliases, but they've gotten too busy in one case and in the other, attacks by grumpy old members on them were more than it was worth. (In one nasty post, a famous person's name came up in a post where they were being attacked and when they tried to offer some perspective under their alias, they were attacked as the alias too for defending their real name. That was the end of them coming here. It really made me sad for them to leave, but I don't blame them. They had been here a LONG time too.

I think cracking down harder on personal or direct attacks on people here is something we need to do. That would require all of your input and help watching posts for that sort of thing. I get a lot of notes now and try to intervene, often I just jump into the middle of it and let the bully attack me for a while, which usually works. I hate to ban people and to date we've only banned 12 people in all our years, though often people CLAIM they have been banned to try and make me look bad when it's simply not true. This type of stuff goes with the territory and over the years we've had he friendliest and most supportive board out there. But we are NOT welcoming to certain genres (Rap, Pop, Metal etc.) even though Rap was behind only Rock as the largest Genre in our last music awards in terms of entries. It's about time for people who hate Rap to stop posting their opinions on Rap because it is not instructive or constructive when you're simply a broken record. The truth is that people who write Metal, Punk, Rap and the edgier genres rarely are welcomed on any music site and therefore they have little chance to learn or improve. Those genres may have lyrics that people are offended by, but instead of simply ignoring stuff they don't like, they berate and belittle these folks before anyone can help them, welcome them and perhaps make them better writers and artists.

We can't add a zillion boards that won't be used. I thought perhaps 3 boards, one for Country and all variations of it (Americana, Folk, etc.) All the other popular Radio genres and then a board for the smaller or less common genres from Jazz to Children's to Instrumental etc. I doubt we'd get a lot to start with, but perhaps if a Rap artist could link a track and not get hammered automatically or a Metal kid could post and get feedback on their guitar playing and dark subject lyrics without judgement, they'd not only stay, but would ask more folks to join in. Meanwhile, the same stuff that gets posted now would still get posted. It wouldn't take MORE time because we'd have a system to put GENRE in the subject of MP3's. If the title is too long, someone would just have to shorten it... (and likely SHOULD anyone, as few hits ever have really long titles that won't fit on our entire subject line) and they could put the full title inside the post with the lyric if there was one.

I only go a single new private message with an offer to help. I was hoping for a bit more as it will likely take 10 people making a real effort to move us in the right direction.

Brian

I figured people would get caught up in the Pro/Developing separation... if you are just doing music as a hobby, then you wouldn't post in the "Pro" because you don't need to finish the project with Professional quality lyrics or music. If your goal is to write LIKE a Pro, then go for it and post it there... we're not going to force anyone to use one or the other, but be ready to be hammered on the Pro board and patted on the back on the Developing board with some suggestions nicely tossed in.

I listed what I did as a suggestion, I don't care what they end up being called. But truth is even a PRO would likely start off posting a song on the developing until they really thought it was READY and then the developed version posted on the PRO board. It's just a suggestion anyway.

Brian

Personally I have no objection to genre boards or any kind of revamp that will make the site more appealing to serious musician or casual observer.

I have many thoughts about how the boards should/could work so here are some (in no particular order).

First of all (and this is a big one) we should all support Brian and the boards he creates for us. And by that I mean, let’s get folk posting in the correct place. Too many members (who frankly should know better) continue to post questions, observations, whinges etc in General. If people post in the right place, the existing boards will form a decent repository of useful info appropriate for that board instead of being lost in General. If JPF gets known to have an organised knowledge base, we will get more visitors.

The lyric boards are long overdue a re-hash. What Brian mentioned earlier sounds fine, but having Lyric Board 1,2 & 3 with no discernable differentiators must be very confusing for a newcomer (or anybody for that matter)

I would suggest more collaboration exercises or small competitions to get writers working either together or chasing individual targets.

We need to get political subjects such as petrol prices or gun control away from the top of the board. This may mean moving General forum down the board a bit. But anyone coming to a music forum and seeing all that stuff may be put off. I have no objection to people airing their views but I don't think it should be the in the first forum that someone is likely to dip into. General should be all daisies and buttercups

I Like your Idea of moving the General Board Down
And I Also have Never thought the 3 Lyric boards without more distinction has made much sense --- I always thought it was a Temporary Fix to a problem when the site got upgraded--- IT Makes Great sense to Me to distinguish the 3

jm

Personally, I think if folks want to talk about politics, let them go to facebook. In my opinion, here it should either be politics about music, or music about politics. If it's an upcoming law or regulation that affects music, fine. If it's a song about something political or social, fine. But discussing current events, elections, controversies etc., should be for facebook. Anyway, that's my opinion, Brian, of course, sets the rules.

I Totally AGREE -- but again it's Up to Brian -- to set the Rules and Set The tone
Quite Honestly -- Sports also to me fits in the category --- unless it is about the MUSIC entertainment : )

when American Idol was all the rage here -- it did not interest me -- but I felt the threads had a place because the show was about music

AGAIN just JMHO
jm