It's bad enough the music industry will never be the same and they (big corp) have figured out a way to profit while 99% of songwriters/artists are effectively hamstrung and kept out of the loop. Big corps are building song writer groups and are pumping out some of the worst, pretentious cookie cutter crap I've ever had the displeasure of listening to.
Country Music is under the gun for perpetuating this conveyor belt type of "music" by slapping a twang, a title and country-themed lyrics to an existing, common melody and raking in the big bucks...with a tweak here and there.
IMO this is, at the very least greed and laziness, and at most, from an artists perspective, it's the ultimate fan con game.
Now I am not knocking the songwriters fortunate enough to be a part of this. Clearly, your talents got you there. However, cutting and pasting lyrics atop a " standard, new country groove" and schlepping them out to a young, ignorant, hormone and alcohol driven, post adolescent peeps, is just sad, really.

The country music backlash is already in full effect. I am not saying anything that "traditional country artists" and their fans haven't been saying about today's Country music or the negative culture being propagated in Nashville and elsewhere due to cronyism, corporate greed......I'm just repeating what most established artists and avid country music lovers already know about this genre and showing you a little video so you can hear it for yourself.

Take a look at this video and give me your opinion. I am sure I'll hear crap for this from those who've been fortunate enough to get inside this racquet. I couldn't care less. The truth hurts....and today's country music, A SCAM.

Do yourself a favor, burn your collection of today's "country".....and get out some Hank, Merle, Willie......or even some Sturgil Simpson (a true country artist of today). But we must not support this trend.

https://www.facebook.com/djhenryfong/videos/799731893427460/

That was AMAZING.....the Music GROOVE is good but the similarity of melody and lyrics is so redundant and awful that it really is a disregard for the fan and it's downright insulting. BUT They have this Country/Rock Groove that they are all using and it IS Compelling.....JUST too much Vanilla over and over and over again......where are the other flavors......We are going to be living in a WORLD OF VANILLA pretty soon.....nothing to hot and not to cold.....Nothing to small and nothing too bold... nothing too young and nothing to old JUST a bunch of Crap over sold.....HEY That's a pretty good start to my new song I think.....A WORLD FULL OF VANILLA....B

lol Barry........has the eerie stench of socialism, no?

Just a Black & White Re Run World....
Have you ever read AYN RAND....?
Some of her ideas I LIKE and others not so much....lol
Like everything else on Planet Earth.
B

Politically she, it appeared, played both sides of the fence. Although considered conservative, she clearly pissed off both sides of the political spectrum with her ideals. Never read "Atlas.." but had to read "Fountainhead" for a Govt class in college.

Oh yeah, this video comes round again. It shows nothing, and is completely misleading. It's a one sided sampling of similarities, hiding every difference there is. Nothing but bias and manipulation.

Everybody knows there are 12 notes in the western scale. What's the news?

Old is better, huh. Bullshit

Here's some old songs with the big daddy chord sequence, everybody knows: C-Am-F-G

- Stand by me
- Unchained melody
- Let's twist again
- Wonderful world
- I will always love you
- Every breath you take
- Runaround Sue
- All I have to do is dream
- It's in his kiss
- Duke of Earl

.. and countless others

These things are repeated because they are vehicles to sustain the recognition of genre. The same goes for the style these are played with.

When we learn to play, we all learn the same old songs, chords and licks. It's how tradition is sustained.

New writers, voices and players come around, and they want to play music and entertain audiences too, just like the old farts did.

80% of what audiences want is something they can recognize. It's how music works. The same goes for schools, politics, business ect.

In fact, new songs are different than the old ones. They tend to have more dynamics, more melodies, more hooks, more rhythm, contemporary lyrics, artists emphasize emotion a lot more, musicians are technically better, gear is better and there's a lot more innovative tools to work with, production has improved, a&r is more knowledgable.. the list is endless. But if you only focus on similarities, you don't get to hear any of this.

Listening for similarities is a habit of the untrained ear.

You wanna tell me that the songs of Brad Paisley, Miranda Lambert, Vince Gill, Lady Antebellum, Sarah Evans, Zac Brown Band, Sugarland, Kacey Musgraves, Brooks & Dunn, Brandi Carlisle and many others, sucks? Suit yourself.

But, a video from an ignorant bedroom producer proves otherwise, really? I don't think so. It's just sad and misleading. Online bullshit of the typical kind.

Thanks, Magne.

The only thing that comes round and round again are people who complain that the "newer stuff just ain't as good as the older stuff." And that's because as Camus noted, to paraphrase, it's the early stuff, the art we experience in our youth, that opens up our hearts to beauty, and the rest of life is an attempt to recreate that, to find that again..

I mean what, we should write Country Music in 7/4 time about Gilgamesh and use flatted ninth chords?

Country Music evolves like everything else, but the essence of what it is--the chord progressions and guitars and the bulk of it's lyrical message and attitude--these are the main things that make it Country, not whether it sounds like an Owen Bradley production or not. Technology affects just about all musics, except possibly traditional folk, played on one guitar by a campfire, with the tape recorder turned on..

Mike

**somewhere deep in the heart of Nashville, MAB stirs in his chair and feels strangely compelled to check out JPF..**

That's radio. That doesn't mean Country is dead.

Dig a little deeper. There is a LOT of good Country out there. The problem is that no one is BUYING it. The kids are buying. We complain - but we can't be bothered to support the artist who are producing GREAT stuff.

Go BUY Brandy Clark's "12 Stories"!!!! Country does not get better than that. Period. Did you buy it?????

Go BUY Kacey Musgraves "Same Trailer, Different Park"

Go BUY Jason Isbell's "Southeastern". A gorgeous CD. Did you buy it??? I can't stop listening to it. I saw him in concert a couple of night ago at the Capitol Theatre in Clearwater. Awesome show. 750 seats... He should be playing arenas. But no one buys music anymore....

Go BUY Chris Stapleton's "Traveler".

Go BUY Tyler Farr's "Suffer In Peace".

Go BUY Frankie Ballard's "Sunshine and Whiskey".

Miranda Lambert's "Platinum". BUY it.

GO BUY LEE BRICE's "HARD 2 LOVE" - Incredible album!!!! (I know it's a few years old - but I LOVE it... and I bought it...

There IS good Country music out there. Money talks.

SUPPORT GOOD STUFF. Talk is cheap. (CD's are, too - buying them might make a difference).

Aw, Humm,
Having listened to country music since the early 50's I can say that a lot of the new stuff is pretty bad. The Golden Era of Country Music was from 1946, right after the Second World War until about 1956 when Elvis showed up and things changed. The last modern CD I may have bought was either Pam Tillis, Leeann Womack or Leann Rimes. Not sure I can recommend any of the new stuff. Radio could care less what they play as it is all programmed from central locations as presented by the Major Labels to the Radio Stations.

Many times I have put on a local radio station and turned it off in less than 30 seconds. Yes it's that bad.

Let's not burn any music unless it's the new Britney Spears & Iggy Azaela song called Pretty Girls.

Kol/Mike,

I'm still trying to figure out just where this issue became an "old vs new" debate. Pay attention. It's not the music but the method. The vacuum created by the drastic changes in the business of music, the "conveyor belt method" of releasing music, the Rap/Country domination of popular music to the detriment of all the rest, the politics, the greed, the corporate takeover.....that's the point. The video, an amusing sidebar.
Today's country music blows because it's painfully obvious to me and half the country music world that the music has lost it's heart in favor of the almighty dollar.
Back in the day when a favorite artist "sold out" for the money, their fans let them know and sales/fan bases/careers, were affected.
The difference here, IMO, is that in this instance the entire GENRE sold out to the almighty dollar and have effectively shut out a lot of artists, songwriters and musicians in the process.

Yeah, it's all "derivative." But the key is to evolve and try not to SOUND derivative. Unlike Sturgil Simpson, Jason Isbell,...you know, those who re-invent the sound; modernizing the genre WITHOUT sounding derivative. Not the cut and paste approach minus the emotion. Today's country has no heart. Good production, top notch musicians, a "hot" singer and slick, polished lyrics can fool anyone into thinking a song is better than it is. That's why it's mostly the young teenie boppers and 20 somethings (and apparently, you two) who buy this pretentious [naughty word removed].
It's no different than Hollywood manipulating emotions in their big budget blood fests. They know what sells. Blood, guts, gore, sex, special effects......Country music today is no different.

Except that real emotion that comes from a good, honest song can never be derived.

Michael,

LOL..It's funny to me, and a bit frustrating that you say you can't see how this became an old vs new debate, then tell me "pay attention," and then say "today's country music blows, today's country has no heart, etc."



But your point is that these are just not "good, honest songs, with real emotion?" So is it a case of mutual exclusivity? If a song is well produced and sung well it simply cannot be a good honest song?

In your opinion, music produced through the Nashville system is "mostly crap" and you are entitled to your opinion. But at the same time, you are also saying loud and clear that people who like it cannot possibly be liking it for it's own merits, but because they have been manipulated by a system (your words) that is no different than Hollywood's.

So let me see if I've got this, Michael, because I am listening and trying to understand. You are saying that all people who like any of the music that comes out of today's Nashville have been manipulated into liking this music? That is rather a tall statement, don't you think? Perhaps you might go into a little detail and tell me how exactly Nashville is manipulating me and Kostad and every person that likes any Nashville music? It sounds like some kind of mind control, LOL.

Certainly there's a certain amount of homogenization that occurs in Nashville. It is a system aiming at big numbers, but that doesn't mean that what comes out is soulless. Good, honest songs still come out, because there are good, honest people in Nashville that are part of the process of writing, performing and producing them. Your generalized and paranoid rant poo poohs away a lot of good stuff in one fell swoop, and that's too bad.

Perhaps instead of seeing it as being a case of youthful gullibility, manipulation and possibly mind-control, perhaps give folks who like music that you don't, such as (modern) Nashville made music, a tiny little bit of credit, That maybe we like what we do because we find something in it to like? And if you then want to think of us as being lesser beings for that, that we are being controlled or whatever..that's fine. But do realize, it kinda makes you sound like a jerk, you know? You, presuming to know why everybody buys this soulless, pretentious Nashville crap, as you call it.

And just because I defend Nashville doesn't mean I don't buy Texas artists like Guy Clark and Butch Hancock and Jimmie Dale Gilmore and countless others.. Perhaps I see Nashville to be "apples" and music that's not made through the Nashville system as "oranges" instead of a blanket good/bad situation?

I have a hard time with folks who want to tell me what art is good and what is bad. What to like and not to like. The nature of art is that we get to decide that for ourselves, and that aesthetic thought about what is good and what is bad is for the most part subjective, no matter how hard one beats ones chest..

If you come away from this conversation, Michael, thinking that I must not like good, honest songs, then you have entirely missed my point.

Mike

I heard this the other day for the first time, and couldn't help but think that it's from 2003...over a decade ago.

This link has the lyrics and about 45 seconds of the actual song, but enough to get the idea across.

And again, it's over a decade old.

http://johnm.com/track/443755/music-rowbots?trackship_id=408826

Just putting it out there for perspective.

Midnite

Hey Mike.....looks like I MAY be your only ally here but I agree with everything you say and it won't change a thing because EVERYTHING TODAY is SOULESS....Our Country Lost its Soul AND IT'S WAY.....I wrote a song that nobody cares about called WHAT IF THE MUSIC DIED....and got the same response to it from everybody I know that it's just my ridiculous Pie in the sky idealism and the song won't resonate with anybody. The Premise of the song ( Possible Concept Album or Broadway Musical ) what the world would be like if there was no NEW ART of any kind for 10 years. Would be we be MISSED....right now we are being taken for granted BIG TIME.....SO...on and on and on it goes BUT I continue to be Idealistic and Hopeful and will try by best to write fresh and interesting songs and LET God be the Judge. B

“It's bad enough the music industry will never be the same...”


The 'same' as what, exactly? The same as it was 40 years ago? 40 years ago, a lot of music was formulaic, predictable, and for the most part, utter crapola. Remember “Bubble Gum”?

The industry has changed, to be sure. 40 years ago, you could make a phone call cold and set up an appointment with an A&R person at a major label in New York or L.A. You would arrive with your reel-to-reel tape, he would cue it up and play your demo. In the early 70's they were signing everyone with a pulse in L.A. Few survived the first album.

I'm hearing a lot of sour grapes in this thread. The competition is fierce in music today. That has produced a crop of multi-talented artists and producers. Performers who can write, perform, record and sell out concerts without the clout of a label. I think that's a good thing.



Regards,

Bob

I think rock was a lot better in the 90s than 2000s. Songs were more memorable.

County pop is nothing new. Think Patsy Cline. And the Everly Brothers may have been the original country-rock act.

For some real throwback to old country, try to find the Jack family videos on YouTube, especially the young lady named Jade Jack. She is amazing!

"**somewhere deep in the heart of Nashville, MAB stirs in his chair and feels strangely compelled to check out JPF..** "

Yes, here we go again. LET THE WHINING COMMENCE!!!! Happens pretty much as regular as clockwork. Been hearing it since 1988 when I moved here and before that when I was in Birmingham. Yeah I know. It ALL SUCKS! Country music is terrible!!! Why do they play such crap!!! It all sounds alike..." blah blah blah blah!!!!!

My question to you is, "WHY IN GOD'S NAME DOES IT MATTER TO YOU?" If you don't like it, DON'T LISTEN TO IT! there are MILLIONS of ways to get music now. There are hundreds of thousands of pod casting, web sites, PANDORA, SPOTIFY, YOU TUBE, Sirrius radio, downloads, I Tunes, hundreds of television cable stations, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO THINGS YOU DON'T LIKE?

It all sounds alike? Sure does. HAVE YOU LISTENED TO RAP OR HIP HOP FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS? Do one of those little "mash up" things over a couple hundred rap or hip hop songs. See what you get?

They don't measure up to your standards? Probably not. but YOU ARE NOT THE COUNTRY MUSIC TARGET AUDIENCE. Listen up folks, MOST OF US ARE OLD NOW!!!! WE ARE OUR PARENTS! Get used to it. It is part of life. Music moves past us. We think it all sucks. That is what we do. And does it? OF COURSE IT DOES. It always has. Our Grandparents and parents thought Elvis and Beatles were the end of civilization!

HANK, MERLE, WILLIE,they were looked down on IN THEIR DAY. Why do you think most of them moved OUT of Nashville? Do some "Googleing, on YOU TUBE. Watch Charlie Rich announce JOHN DENVER AS ENTERTAINER OF THE YEAR AND TAKE OUT A CIGARETTE LIGHTER AND LIGHT THE ENVELOPE AND ANNOUNCEMENT. It has always been this way.

Do I like all this stuff? OF COURSE NOT. I am too busy writing my own stuff, working with artists, writers and trying to create my own to worry too much about all that. I don't really get too caught up in it because most of it IS GOING TO BE GONE IN A COUPLE OF YEARS. And there will be some new stuff out there you can hate and then be moaning because it is not as good as it is NOW.

That is a great post by Floyd Jane about some really great artists and songs out there. And I HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH ONE OF THOSE. Had I not worked with him and helped him get into this stuff, you might have never heard of FRANKIE BALLARD or SUNSHINE AND WHISKEY because he was known as JUST A BLUES GUITAR PLAYER and had been passed over by everyone in Nashville. I helped him find his writing chops. Do I even like all his stuff? NOPE. I wish he had recorded the songs I wrote with him, BAREFEET,MY GIRL'S HOTTER OR I'M SO AT HOME WITH YOU. Or the 15 other songs including two of mine he recorded on his first CD. But that is fine. He is doing well and I applaud him.

So the question is, what do YOU want done about it? As always my suggestion is FIND YOUR OWN ARTISTS. WRITE YOUR OWN SONGS. Help someone else build their catalogue, their career. Find people you like, support them. Tell others about them. Write with unsigned people and help them get signed. Do something about it instead of just complaining about the way things are.

But that is not what most people do. Most people complain. So if that is what you want to do, there is plenty of room for that too. Just most of the time realize you are only talking to hear yourself talk.

MAB

Oh c'mon Marc, don't surgar coat it. Tell us how you really feel:-)

Midnite

P.S....Yeap, I've been checking in every hour or so, just so that I could be the first to respond to MAB....:-)

Like it. Don't like it. Don't matter. Same old same old. I love all the Mike's in this thread, and no one appreciates a good rant more than me...But still...As another Mike suggested in another thread: Put it in a song so that we can at least critique it(which John N. did in a song that I linked to in a previous post.

And I do have to take exception to anything that denigrates the artists who are out there paying dues that we never see..

It's cookie cutter.
But then, so is every single commercial genre. Everybody is looking for the big hit, and the easiest way to find it is to copy something else that has already been a big hit.
So, they copy.
And copy.
And copy.
And copy.
Until there is a new artist that somehow breaks through the clutter with a new sound that hits it big.
And then they start copying that sound.
And copy.
And copy...

And it's the same for pop and R&B and rock as it is for country.

There ya go again Pop Todd, bringing in rational thought...

Midnite

Hey Midnite,

By the way, I've been traveling all over the state of Tennessee the past two days to do my OWN music. So I wasn't able to get on here. but pretty much have been laughing about it the whole time. It all kind of makes me laugh.

There are hundreds of thousands of artists all out there, writing, singing, traveling, trying to get attention. Some very good ones. Actually performing with one tonight, Dani Jamerson, who I think is going to be a big star in the future. The latest artist with a shot, I've been involved with.

And that is really all you can do. Try to participate as best you can. You can complain, everyone does. but that really doesn't do anything except make you insane. Why waste the time?

Record companies ARE cookie cutter. They have ALWAYS BEEN COOKIE CUTTER. Something resonates with the public, and all of them dive on the same trend. they all show up at the same time because for a while THEY ARE MAKING MONEY. Then that trends slows then dies, and it is on to another trend.

And yes, Todd it is EXACTLY like it in every genre. When I was doing rock, there were some very interesting cool groups. Journey, Styxx, Springsteen, Boston, Journey some of my favorites. and my band, 24 KARAT was right in there with them.

Then HEAVY METAL BAND OF THE WEEK all came in. They all had big hair, leather, huge Marshall stacks, huge drums, the songs sounded the same, the hot chicks in the videos were all the same. That started my exit from rock.

THEN came everyone wearing flannel, playing guitar badly, with all these depressing, negative songs about how bad everything was, they didn't bathe, they were so screwed up on drugs they couldn't stand up, and what you could understand what they were saying it wasn't anyone you wanted to be around. That was Seattle grunge. That was the NAIL IN THE COFFIN for me and Rock. AND THEY ALL SOUNDED THE SAME. For me, pretty much all of rock has been that way for the last 30 years.

Is there good stuff out there? I'm sure their is. Just has nothing to do with me.So now, they say Rap has more of an impact on the culture than the Beatles. I guess. Doesn't have much on me.

I just carry on my little way, trying to do the best I can. I don't listen to a lot of the same stuff you people complain about either. Again, DOESN'T HAVE MUCH TO DO WITH ME.

Don't like it. Turn it off.

MAB

I think the government should control popular music.

Ahh, umm....Biggest belly laugh of my day!

Thanks Ben!!!:-)))))))))))

Midnite

Marc!,
Michael is not whining! He is giving Constructive Criticism! Ok whining. I shouldn't be using those big words! I don't remember any "Whining" back in the 50's or 60's. I have a bunch of old Country Song Roundup Magazines. I will have to re-vsit them to see if anybody was whining back then.

Midnite said to write a song about it. I did that.

https://youtu.be/6X9fpKnI_7M

Joe

I don't know what the big deal about Hank and Merle etc is. I've heard their songs and they weren't all that memorable. They aren't memorable because I have no memories to those songs. Take a walk with me through psychology 101. You don't miss old time country. You miss the way your worlds / lives used to be when that was the music you'd listen to. It has nothing to do with music of today. You have no memories to these current songs so it all sucks.

Ray,

Hmmmm, you've got it half right. Micheal is giving 'Critism." There is nothing "constructive" about it.Simply giving an opinion based upon observations from your own point of view, and complaining about things not being the way "you like them' is not constructive. Giving out that opinion, THEN pointing out some things to do about it, like offering up some different music one might like, showing how to find out some different places to get music, and giving specific EXAMPLES of where and how and who to do that with, IS constructive. There's nothing about complaining, giving the same tired cliche's about something and just saying the same thing over and over expecting everyone to agree with you is NOT CONSTRUCTIVE.

And dragging out some old magazines might be a great idea, because there have ALWAYS been the same complaints. "Elvis Presley was shaking his hips and bringing that 'devil' music and destroying kids, the "Beatles claiming they were bigger than Jesus', Tennessee Ernie Ford, Jimmy Dean, Patsy Cline and Jim Reeves putting STRINGS on country music and making it 'countrypolitan", Buck Owens bringing "drums" onto the Grand Ole Opry, Johnny Cash putting trumpets on "Ring of fire" and making it sound like a damn Mexican song..."

Yeah, there has been a LOT of complaining (Whining) when it comes to one generation complaining about another generation. they even used to have a name for it, THE GENERATION GAP. See, it is a good idea to get a historical perspective on anything. So maybe some of those old magazines will show you something.

That it is not that different today than it was then. One generation being replaced by another one. In a way it is simply a natural evolution of life.

Aaron is absolutely right. The current generation has NO CONNECTIONS to those songs, those memories or those styles of music. I, even listen back to a lot of Hank and Merle and go, "Man, I can't believe people liked that. A lot of it was pretty boring.

But the point is, YOU STILL HAVE IT. In the words of John Lennon when the Beatles broke up, "People still have the records if they want to reminisce."

And I'll tell you what ol buddy, that music is STILL OUT THERE. Merle still plays casinos and clubs. Most of those older iconic artists who are still alive, are out there playing all the time. They even release new music. they have web sites. They have children and grand children that protect their legacies. They have "tribute' shows that people impersonate them. One of he biggest industries in the entertainment business are tribute bands. They even have their own festival.

And there are a LOT of people influenced by those artists and are out there now doing new music that sounds just like you like. You just have to do a little work and go find it. But it is out there, trust me because they come into this town daily, play on writer's shows, go to workshops, etc. We have terms for that too.
"Retro, or "Dated."

So it is out there. If you want to be constructive, go find it. Or you can write your own. If you only want to complain. That is "Whining."

MAB

Here's some reasons NOT to be involved in the music industry:


http://pigeonsandplanes.com/2015/05/10-reasons-not-to-work-in-the-music-industry/s/yet-here-i-am/

Marc!,
It isn't the latest stuff we are "Evaluating" We are not comparing the latest offerings to what was released from yesterday. A couple of songs I have seen and heard on CMT is DRINKING CLASS and AIN"T WORTH THE WHISKEY. Now you will have to agree those songs take a lot of Talent and Imagination to write! And much of those sound tracks. Some of it sounds like it came out of the Movie, CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF. Or at least the Cat!

Some of that they call music. Well they do like to take liberties now, don't they.

There is that old saying, BUILD A BETTER MOUSE TRAP AND THE WORLD WILL BEAT A PATH TO YOUR DOOR. I think Hank Snow had to play a lot of stuff Acoustic because there wasn't electricity available yet where he toured.

Now Marc don't get mad but I will take any three country artists from yesterday and beat any three you can name from today 3 to 0. Some of the most fantastic classical recordings from the past were recorded before digital was available. They were still using tube equipment and tape! I know I have some of them!

Sorry but I do hear the stuff that is being put out today. Most of it should have never made it into the studio, let alone out to the public. You call some of that music? OK.

Ray,

The thing is I AGREE with you on some of that. But WE are not of any consequence in the world at all. I don't care for most of what is out there. But what do you want me to do about it? The fact is that I can't. I can only be responsible for what I DO.

And the things you are talking about work for YOU. YOU have your opinions as do I, but that is what they are. OPINIONS. Talk to anyone under 30 and they dissagree 100% with you. And THOSE are the BUYING PUBLIC, not you or I.

All I am doing is providing a little perspective. You have your opinion as do I. But that makes no difference whatsoever in the overall scheme of things. Our time has passed. We have to deal with it.

I deal with it by trying to work with people, bring in my own experiences and processes and try to make a difference. That is all I can do. And to just get into a "venting' process, just doesn't make any sense to me. All it does is offend younger people,and divide people. To me, there is nothing positive that comes out of it. And since I don't do negative in my life or my writing, there is no place for me to put that.

Someone posted some "There is no country anymore" song on another thread. it is the same plodding, boring diatribe that most everyone who has that point of view has. Nothing different, no new information, just a rambling complaint. Fine. They have their opinion too. Doesn't change a thing.

That is all I am saying. If people want to complain, this is a place for it. The Internet is the place for it. Everyone has their soapbox. About 90% of the entire Internet is simply people venting their spleen on some issue or another.

But as far as having ONE SINGLE positive effect, it doesn't. The people who DON'T agree with that opinion, are NEVER going to agree with it, no matter what anyone says, and the people who DO agree with it, only agree with it, because they want someone to listen to THEIR OPINION ON THE SAME THING, SAYING THE SAME THING.

To me, that is an exercise in futility. Gets no one anywhere except worked up over something they can't do anything about.
Got your opinion? Fine. State it. Then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Enjoy the music you like.
Turn off the music you DON'T LIKE.
Write your own.
Find others to interact with, artists, co-writers, companies, web sites, and do something YOU DO LIKE.

That's all I'm saying.
MAB

"Now Marc don't get mad but I will take any three country artists from yesterday and beat any three you can name from today 3 to 0."

Ray, I am never MAD about any of this. I try to respond to it, and I hear it ALL the time from many other sources than here. i care about people here and everyone that puts their time and money into this so I try to give a PERSPECTIVE on things. But you have to look at REALITY.

You could make that comment from YOUR PERSPECTIVE, and put your "three artists up there" and someone under 30 years old would laugh you out of the conversation. Because they don't feel the same way.They don't have the same experiences.To you those "classic artists and songs" would just be BORING to other people.

And you have the right to your opinion. But it is just that. Your opinion.

My only comment is why does all this JUST get talked about with country? As it has been demonstrated over and over, by myself and many others, MUCH OF MUSIC AND EVERY GENRE ARE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. Throughout history, there was more Ear Candy" than classic songs. More bubblegum than Beatles. That is just the nature of music.

Imagine being an "old world painter or sculptor" who spends their lives studying the masters, finally achieving a little notoriety and then a bunch of impressionist painters and sculptors come in with squiggly lines, and strange looking artwork and suddenly THEY are all the rage and making all the money. To those people it was INSANITY, NOT ART.

That is what this is. Aaron has it right. You want to remember your music the way it was because it reminds you of the WORLD it was back then. WE all do the same thing. I listen to a ton of those songs, and remember every moment of then. Then I listen to modern rock or pop and it has NOTHING to do with my experiences. So it all SUCKS to me.

It's the way of the world. Dude, we got OLD. You want to be upset about that, fine. But don't blame everyone else for what you don't like. Just don't listen to it.

MAB

Marc, I am doing exactly that. Some of my lyric repertoire includes pieces that would make good throwbacks to the traditional country sound of yore. And I haven't read all the posts here, but the premiere song of lament on this issue is "Murder on Music Row", and there have been several versions of it which can be found over on YouTube. One of the best ones was one with George Jones and Dierks Bentley, which is ironic considering that Dierks is one of the gurus of today's country which many here poo-poo, and I'll admit that it isn't what I consider as country. But I pointed out that pop-sounding country is nothing knew. Think Patsy Cline, for one. And the original country rock act may have been the Everly Brothers. All I do is write lyrics, basically because when I write them I do have other melodies in mind and don't want to deal with the increasing lawsuits over infringements. Therefore when I can afford to do so I have a demo company who has no idea where my inspirations came from set the music to them. Is there a column here on JPF for those looking for songs and people to record them? These days it seems that most music artists write their own songs, which was not always the case. I believe the singer-songwriter phenomenon began with Dylan.

Eh,
There is that other "opinion" over on the Industry Message Forum UK SONGWRITER SLAMS NASHVILLE "LAZINESS". I didn't write that one either. Again, it isn't about Yesterday's music versus Today's music. It is about what we are being subject to mostly on the Airwaves. Ear Candy? Yes I think Homer and Jethro made a mint parodying Ear Candy! And they had a ton of Talent to go with it!

Hey Marc......LOLOLOL
Everything you say is Spot on and I you gave me two new ideas for songs.
I DON'T DO NEGATIVE & YOU CAN'T GET HERE FROM THERE....lol

BTW....It's NOT just Country Music that has diminished in quality in my opinion. I was watching the amazing four years of Mad Men for the past four years and the Finale episode was on at 10 PM last night and IT IS AMAZINGLY GOOD.....BUT I did peruse over to channel 17 to catch the Billboard Awards and seriously had to go for the Pepto. I really TRY and have an open mind BUT the songs and sameness of MOST of the songs was dreadful.

ALSO...and this is only my take on TAYLOR (Who I really love most of the time) is that even though she is the post popular Star in the world has taken a nose dive for the long term. She is NOW sounding just like all the Pop Women Artists....she still writes engaging and catchy melody, looks great and is a live wire but I just expected more in the way of Quality going forward. She is doing what Mariah did and I find it sad....BUT She is rich and powerful and I guess that's what she wanted.

I had an interesting conversation with my best friend Mike who is a Billy Joel Nut.....And he told me that he is Angry at him for stopping writing songs. He would love to know what Billy has been doing and thinking in the past 20 years and is furious....lol
I would also love hear some new songs but it's Billy's Prerogative not to do it for whatever reasons. I can think of a few but that's for another post......HE sure did have a great songwriting style BUT Still performs the oldies for sellout crowds.
SO that's my ravings this morning. I was just talking to my wife about how a few years ago I HAD to let go of the dream of being SOMEBODY in the Business.....Just didn't happen and had to let it go AND IT WAS HARD....SO now I write stories and new songs and just try and keep busy.

I'm doing a new Pro Life song ( Have a few now and wasn't always pro life ) called SIXTY MILLION LITTL COFFINS (All in a Row) and it's going to be an amazingly powerful song that I hope will move few hearts to pro choice for the unborn baby. I enjoy writing songs like that the most....and on and on and on it goes my Journey from THERE to HERE....lol
B

Anyone remember "Murder on Music Row?" This is the premier lament on the way the genre has evolved. We may just be awaiting the next equivalent of Alan Jackson or Patty Loveless.

I like some of today's country. Little Big Town and Luke Bryan are already among my all time favorites.

Good Lookin' Girl - Luke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qUMlwqQFCo

Good People - LBT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBkzLZc1Ewg

Um, I came to "classic country" relatively recently and it struck a chord with me immediately (no pun intended).
I have lots of other friends who are the same way. All they know is the modern country stuff and they hate it. But then they hear Merle or Hank or Gram Parsons or old Dolly Parton or any of that old stuff and they're hooked.
It really just boils down to taste. What do you like?
Me? I like GOOD music.

Emmylou doesn't listen to new country anymore, either.

We all think the music we listen to is good. Why would any of us listen to music that we think is crap?

They call her the queen of country but this is the first time I have heard of her.
Emmylou doesn't ring a bell.

A pertinent question here:
How old are you?
Here is a recent video of her singing like an angel, as she always has.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWVjaaGlQl4

And something from a long time ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r-VwSRzXbk
(and yeah, that is Alvin Lee on Telecaster.)

And, she did have her own career, too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpyai-X3BgA

30 this year.' I sampled some of her hits. First time hearing them and the last. Just not my cuppa tea.

Fair enough.

We all like what we like for whatever reasons. Some are indeed psychological, others for more purely aesthetic reasons.

But there is absolutely NO WAY to prove that any era of music is better than any other. It all boils down to how we feel. That's why these arguments are amusing and a little bit frustrating--to hear people straining and gyrating to prove such a point, where a scientific method of involving big groups of non-biased participants is the ONLY way to truly get any answers. Like Aaron said, nobody listens repeatedly to music they think is crap.

Maybe Midnite Bob will get a grant to go to the deepest jungles of Africa with a hundred classic country songs, and a hundred top modern country songs, with a questionnaire approved by the government, and film these natives and see which they prefer, and call it "The Gods Must Seriously Be Crazy This Time" because they all end up loving a little jingle, not in the study, about shaving cream, the most, and no matter how hard he tries, he can't steer them back to the survey. They want they shaving cream song.

Why African natives? Because it's an attempt to find a group of non-biased people and get a purely aesthetic response. But it, too, ultimately fails the scientific method because if these particular tribes happen to have certain music rituals of their own, they will probably end up liking music that sounds similar. They may lean towards the modern, and for psychological reasons..

Although no one can really explain why Native South Africans absolutely worshiped Jim Reeves (back in the early sixties), a silky voiced country crooner popular in the late fifties/early sixties. Hell, he even made two movies down there in South Africa. So maybe unbiased Africans liked MOR sounding country back then, but it proves absolutely nothing other than we live in a wacky world, where we like things, and we think we know why, but it's truly a mystery. The science of psychology and aesthetics as applied to popular music is very lacking, but that (and a scientific method) is what is needed to make these arguments anything more than p*ssing contests.

Mike

Hah!:-))) Count me in!!! Combining film making and music and surveys that will prove absolutely nothing, and all at the government's expense? How could I resist!


Midnite

Hello folks. Sorry, I've been working all day with a new female artist trying TO NOT WRITE THE STUFF YA'LL HATE!!!!

Beechnut,

I know MURDER ON MUSIC ROW, very well. Both writers, Larry Shell and Larry Cordle, are friends of mine and both have told me their versions of that song. It was written in 1998, recorded first by Larry Cordle's bluegrass group "LONESOME STANDARD TIME" and re-recorded by Alan Jackson and George Strait in 2000. Was nominated for a 'CMA Vocal duo of the year" award and was actually just a show song for the 1999 CMA award shows. It was released as a single but only got to number 38 when both record companies, MCA for Strait and Arista for Jackson, decided to "pull the song, to keep from interfering with their artists' upcoming singles. AND BECAUSE THEY WERE RUFFLING TOO MANY FEATHERS."

Why?

Because that song was written to protest the music of...
GARTH BROOKS AND SHANIA TWAIN!

At that time, those artists had huge stage shows, lasers, lights, big sets, smoke, rain on stage, costume changes, video projectors and were a huge light and sound spectacle. THAT IS WHAT THEY WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT AT THAT TIME. They said "IT WAS JUST ROCK AND ROLL DESQUISED AS COUNTRY! She just showed her belly button, and put fiddles on rock songs (She was produced by Foreigner and Def Leopard's producer and her husband, Mutt Lange) and he was just a rock singer pretending he was country."

So if you think this argument is ANYTHING NEW you have NO SENSE OF MUSIC HISTORY. This town was in histerics at that time, because it was just all "Rock and roll guitars and drums, mixed up in your face."

That is what took the country music industry from $255 million dollars a year, to $2.5 BILLION dollars a year and made country a world wide phenomenon!

Now everyone "pines for those good old days of country!"

Give me a break!!!! This argument never ends! They were complaining when my relative, Jimmie Rodgers, did it in 1926 and are still complaining about it now. Some things NEVER CHANGE!

MAB

Totally Subjective like YOU say.

I hate the new Ford Mustangs. I wish they would make them like they did in 65'.

Yeah Ray, it is ALL SUBJECTIVE. That is the POINT. And always has been. Many people just are so SURE their opinion is correct. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But opinions are like another part of the body, everybody has one.

But none of this is MY OPINION. This is from people I have been listening to for decades that sound JUST LIKE THIS ONE. Most of the time I Just ignore it. But when someone mentions something I personally DO KNOW about straight from the source's mouth, "Murder on Music Row' in this case, I will comment on what they told me. It pertains to this discussion.

You can take it for what it is, but it is what it is.
Case closed.

MAB

I'll grant ya that the 65's were cool, but a lot of things were cool then, and the 70's - 80's Mustangs blew...But I once made the 5 hour trip tween Detroit & Chicago in 3 hours in a '97. Middle of the night, headlights off , running lights only. We blew past the speed traps so fast that they never even knew we were there.

If I was gonna go to a road rally today, yeap, I'd rather cruise in a '65...but if I was actually on the highway today trying to get from point A to point B in a hurry? Gimme a 2014.

On the other hand, I could fix my Model T with a hammer and a wrench. Need to be a rocket scientist to even change a spark plug in these new-fangled machines:-(

Midnnite

Whatever makes money. Right now it's the dude bros who likes to party and get hot women.

Well Marc,
I kinda like my new name. Barry but what the hey! Who's counting!
On a more serious note is that if that new female county artist you are working with needs any songs be sure to direct her to my Web Site of which the link is posted in the industry forum under New Web Site. I have decided to write a book and still haven't named the main character. May be it will be Barry! Uh, no it won't be about Country Music!

Mike,

Of course I'm not referring to all that comes out of Nashville. And yes, I shouldn't fault anyone who likes any certain genre. I don't blame the artist/songwriter/musicians OR the fans....IMO the corporate takeover of ALL of our vast resources seems to water down the product. It's happening in all facets of our society. This vitriolic response was more of a response to your partners vitriolic response. Nothing personal to either.

There's no doubt that corporations were waiting on the other side of this vacuum created by creation of the mp3 and streaming music. The fact that rap and country are so popular is no fluke. Perhaps one must live in 5 decades of music before they can see or understand what's unfolding. The business of music has been the same for 70+ yrs for the most part. Now it's changing as are the roles of everyone involved from the artist to the musicians, producers, writers, arrangers.......Now 90% of the money is being paid to 2% of the artists. This corporate boys club is trying like hell to close the doors on the rest.

I HEAR the difference. I FEEL the difference. Sure there is good music coming out of Nashville and other places. A lot of it. But you are unlikely to hear it unless you search for it because TODAY'S country must meet the CORPORATE criteria of "marketable" music and it's a narrow criteria. And yeah, IMO it is a form of manipulation to sell their product.

The normal evolution of music is now in corporate hands who have added elements of rock, metal, rap, soul, hip hop, even grunge to the "country" mix to keep the dollars rolling. "Natural" evolution of country music is occurring as well but it's being hidden under "Americana" or "folk" or "outlaw country" and are difficult to find but always a pleasure to find them.

Arguably the best "naturally" evolving country album in the past 5 yrs was Sturgil Simpson's, "Meta Modern Sounds in Country Music" which was was relegated to the "Americana" heap, yet aside from a few "modern" touches, it sounds more "country" than anything today's top 10 "country" artists are releasing.

No offense to those that like this crap. But my anger is at the drastic and unprecedented change in the musical landscape that's heading for complete corporate control, where the "HEART" of country music is being held hostage and those not willing to abide by the strict criteria are left to fend for themselves.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong. But I'm not the only one who "feels" something unsettling about this "music." There are millions who feel the same.

Kacey Musgraves is as country as country gets.

Yes, Michael (FKA) Brown:-)

There are still millions out there. And handful by handful, we all keep in touch and do what we do, don't we? Keep those fires burning, because come the revolution when the internet dies(or is revamped), Local music and traditions will still be there.

"Corporate Music" does(often, but not always) blow...But seriously, what else can we expect from Corporations? It's what THEY DO, and have ALWAYS done.

But "they" can't stop anyone from doing what we need to do, which is write, sing and perform whatever we want.

Corporations are about $$$$$...Nothing new there.

Music is about touching someone, and there is nothing, in this internet age, that stops us from continuing to do that...At least for now...

....And when the new "Internet Laws" come into place, there will still be no one to stop us from writing and singing, even if it's on a sidewalk, or in our garage, or in a park...

...Unless, of course, freedom of speech is going to be relegated to our bedrooms, and even THAT might be outlawed.

But seriously, other than a dearth of places to play and make an actual living at, there is no reason on Earth to not to keep on keeping on doing what we're doing...

...in the 90's, there was a band, I believe, called "Rage Against the Machine".

In the '70's, you had Joni Mitchell raging against the same "Star Making Machinery behind the popular song" in "A Free Man in Paris"

Love your heart, but step away from the dead horse:-)


Midnite

And yet, they bleeped out her ":-), :-) :-)" word in the CMA awards show when she sang "Follow Your Arrow".

Perhaps the title of this thread should be "Corporations Blow",

But they can't stop the music, because the music is out there all over the place!

I LOVE me some Kacey!!!!

But I also love me ANY(well, almost any) woman with a guitar and an attitude:-)

Midnite

Perhaps in spite of your good intentions, you are still rather condescending in how you choose to speak.



Still chest thumping, trying to make your argument more believable by telling me how strongly you believe it.


I could make a strong argument how modern Nashville albums, these so called corporate monstrosities--are actually deeper now, on the whole much better than when the single was king and record companies rushed the artist into the studio to record the other nine tunes so they could get the album out there while the single was hot.

When LPs took the shape of little silver disks, there was more space to put stuff. When the Internet and Napster came along, it also forced the hands of these corporate monsters into having to make every song count. If an artist is still to sell their wares, their wares better be pretty good, nowadays. Country albums sucked, on the whole, up until this modern age where every song became crucial to the albums sales.

You are also trying to say this corporate phenomena is something new, Michael, but there's always been about half a dozen major labels conglomerates that account for the bulk of sales in music. Back when I was a buyer for Tower Records, it was Polygram, BMG, WEA, MCA, CBS and I know I'm forgetting one or two others. These majors did their dirtiest work in prior decades of big payola and rushed albums.

So while it may feel to you like today's corporate driven music is not as good as yesterday's (corporate driven music), or today's Indie market, I would argue that it's simply a case of apples and oranges, and I would do it without insulting you in the process.

The best thing..the bravest thing, is to lead by example. You think your artists are better? Promote them somehow, and do it in a way that is not condescending to others, or you will not fare well. Is it not possible to raise something up without tearing something down?

Mike

I think music reflects the era that we live in. The way this world is so messed up, it is no wonder that the music is the same way. There is so much drugs on the go that I am sure some songs are written, sung and listened to under the influence of drugs and alcohol. A foggy mind will make groggy music sound great.

Yeah, she is pretty special.

I have a lady friend who is a life long fan of Carl Smith. That's about all she plays. Haven't talked to her in a while as she lives out in Utah where she and her late husband is. So if you haven't listened to Carl lately or are unaware of him he was a super country star from the 50's and was there when they released 78's.

Ray,

Do you like ANYONE who is still ALIVE in THIS CENTURY? LOL! Man, are you still sitting around your Victrola hand cranking it up? I picture you sitting there around the candles in your house but we really do have electricity now!

It is fine. We all have our favorites. I really think there is some stuff out there you would like, but keep your old records if you want. That is what they are for. They call them RECORDS for a reason.

MAB

Heck Marc,
My Victrola died some time ago. I am now back to Cylinders! Actually my Crystal Set is having a hard time tuning the radio anymore. However I did hear COUNTRY MUSIC IS HERE TO STAY by Simon Crum the other day. Getting up to date now, the problem, as I see it is on the radio you get one good song and 19 bad ones. And then as one time wasn't enough they repeat the cycle! I can't tell you how many times I have turned the radio on, and heard a few seconds of one of those bad songs, cut it off, turned it on an hour later and heard the same BAD song! And Marc, when you find another CARL SMITH, let me know! What! You mean Carl Smith is dead! Hey, we had a 78 by Carl Smith!

Yeah, those 78's are really good. I met Carl one time. Very quickly,nice fellow. Backstage at the Opry I think. They all run together.

There have always been more forgettable songs than memorable ones because the music business is VERY follow the leader. They see a trend develop that makes money and they all pile on that bandwagon. And there are SO MANY LEVELS you have to go through.

I am currently working with an artist and stepping her up the ladder. You start by taking her around to people (or bringing them to her, which is what is happening) and industry people start slowly checking them out. Then they have to talk to their friends about them.
She will have to write with dozens and dozens of people even though she has some pretty damn good songs right now ( I know, I wrote half of them), then other writers and industry people have to get on board. Other publishers come in pitching songs. Dozens upon dozens of other people start putting in their two cents.

You have MEETINGS TO HAVE OTHER MEETINGS. Everyone has their own opinions and their own dog in the hunt, so you have to obligate all of that. In order to get people involved they have to have their own "skin" in the game. Then about a year after that, you get seen by the BIGGER dogs, AND they have THEIR OWN STUFF in the game, and it starts all over again.

Then, after going through months, and months of changing, adapting, coaching, jumping through hoops, you get into the 'development world" and that all starts over again. THEN, maybe just then if you get to the "release stage" you deal with RADIO and THEY start it all over again.

Get successful and it just attracts more people and their opinions. It is an ACT OF GOD that anything ever gets released in the first place and if it doesn't create a SENSATION, it is dropped for something else that is hot at the moment.

This NEVER ends. Just more people involved. It's why you have to have a mega star like TAYLOR SWIFT to even gain traction in the first place. You also better have a HUGE following BEFORE you get involved in this at all.

Another day in Twang town. Take care. Gotta meeting to have another meeting to find out when the next meeting is going to take place.

Don't you want to get involved in this Ray? You could hitch up your Amish horse and buggy and be making the rounds on Music row.

MAB

Um, Well,
Jumping thru Hoops You say? Didja know they wrote a song about that very subject? It's called IT'S A LONG LONG WAY TO TIPPERARY. I will have my people get in touch with your people and we will take it from there, no?

Yes, I loved that marching song back in World War One! LOL1

M

The gist of what you say here is spot on, Everett. Music and pop culture in general do certainly reflect back on us and who "we are" as a whole.

Holy [naughty word removed] you guys just frickin stop it. Anyone who continues bitching about the state of music, you all suck. You make this place suck with your thread upon thread upon thread of the state of music sucks It's old. You've beaten the horse congratufrickinlations. What changed? Does it make you feel better?

Bunch of frickin eeyores. Get over yourselves.

Hmmm..someone's having a melt down..where's Bugsey when we need him?

I don't feel there's anything wrong with the state of music. I don't need to be on drugs or drunk to find great songs. It's stupid to even think that. I buy between 5-10 new songs per week on iTunes. If you search for good songs you'll find them. If you only wanna find songs you'll dislike you'll find those too. Listen to what you like and ignore the rest. Stop being so bitter.

I buy a lot of new music, too. Most of it tends to be a bit under the radar, though. For instance, my favorite new releases of this year are the new ones from:
The Thons (a local punk band)
Father John Misty (sweeping orchestral pop)
Joe Pisapia (the former leader of k.d. lang's most recent band)
Dr. Cosmo's Tape Lab (whimsical psychedelic pop from Scotland)

How about you Aaron? What kind of music you are buying these days?
I'm genuinely curious. Knowing this will lend a bit of perspective to your arguments. Plus, I just really wanna know.
Maybe there is something that I'll dig; a new discovery for me?

Today I bought a few songs.

Florence + the Machine - Ship To Wreck
Zedd ft Echosmith - Illusion
Chevelle - An Island
Ciara - I bet
Luke Bryan- Kick The Dust Up
The Barenaked Ladies - Duct Tape Heart

The difference between you and me, at least as per this thread goes, is..I read what Everett said and saw the truth behind it which is that "Music and pop culture in general do certainly reflect back on us and who "we are" as a whole." which I would find entertaining if you actually tried to refute.

Whereas you read his post and came away only with something negative.

Our lives bring us to whatever perspectives we have on things.

Everett is a good man who just had his 75th birthday. Try to find the truth in what he said, and let the rest just go, man.

Mike

So you see, it's not that I think that all new music sucks. Our tastes just don't jibe.
And, I bet that some of the other complainers here could find some new music that they liked if they were willing to dig a little.
They're not saying that there is no good music coming out, they just aren't seeing it… it's not part of the mainstream. Whereas, they used to like the mainstream.
And, I gotta say that I agree with them.
But then, as we've already established, it all comes down to what you like.

The irony about Everetts post is there was more drugs and alcohol involved in music in the 60's, 70's & 80's than there is right now.

And you are right Todd.

I should let it go? I'm the one being POSITIVE here. I guess in a negative environment such as this thread, someone who is being positive would come off as being negative. That's how silly this all has become.

Nothing in Everett or your post is positive. It's all negative.

Pop,

Kids are more willing to dig, I've noticed. They generally use the Internet to find stuff they like. There are even Internet "engines" whose sole purpose is to find new music for you. It's really never been easier, but yes, it's true many would rather complain.

My problem is I generally like too much of the new stuff I hear, and so have to be more selective, otherwise I find myself going on tangents that eat up too much time, though they provide me with great pleasure.

My newest discoveries are Ben Howard, he's a British singer songwriter who's like a young Richard Thompson. Just an amazing guitarist who got some innovative techniques, and his singing on top of that is just excellent. Check out the HQ live concerts on youtube, and your mouth will drop and stay open for the duration. His debut album "Every Kingdom" is worth owning.

One of my favorite new bands is "School Is Cool" out of Belguim. They are like a young Elvis Costello with a really good (and cute, btw) violinist who sings as well. Check out "Entropology" by them, it is so good.

Lisa Hannigan is going to be a household name. Right now she is the darling of the critics and is getting cuts on TV and in movies. She's Irish, so can get really fiery in her delivery, but to me sounds a little like Melanie, crossed with the phrasing of Joni Mitchell's. Her album "Passenger" is outstanding. Mostly acoustic stuff.

There's just not enough time to hear all the good new music, especially if you let World Music enter the mix..need several life times..so have had to develop listening strategies..

..and yes..it's a shame that some complain that they cannot find good new music..but maybe they just need a friendly "if you like __ then maybe you'll like __" search engine:

http://www.gnoosic.com/faves.php

Mike

Aaron,

What is negative about saying that music and pop culture generally reflect the society in which we live?

What is negative about saying that we "come to the perspectives that we do, based on the lives we've led?

That's pretty much all I've said. So...you know...if you see negativity in what I have said, that is definitely not helping your argument, which is that you are being "positive" and I, negative, since you are finding negativity where there is none.

I respect Everett, and allow him his opinions, as I do everyone here.

There are ways of not liking someone's opinions without sounding real threatening or disrespectful. There are..you just have to dig a little..

Mike

You know what's disrespectful? Telling someone the music they love is crap or that you have to be on drugs to like it. I put up with it in these threads long enough. You can have your opinions but when someone pushes back don't get all defensive as if you're not doing anything to warrant that reaction.

I mean you agreed with everett when he said music is the way it is because the world is a mess. That's not exactly a positive endorsement of music right now.

Let's find Ray some new music!

http://postimg.org/image/uqycstim7/


...and Ray's new music is...


http://postimg.org/image/iuqe89eod/


Ray, that's not a bad call!
I think you'd like the Punch Brothers; they're a four piece acoustic bluegrass group with a real entertaining mandolin player named Chris Thile.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=braQeLkJUvE

That statement in itself isn't negative but in the context it was in it's a negative. To Everett the world is such a big mess and everyone who is listening to the music that he doesn't like are on drugs and that's the only reason why people like popular music. Alcohol. Drugs. It must be true! You agreed with him.

Tell me how you really feel Michael. Do you feel the same? Do you think we're all getting high and drunk just so we can numb ourselves enough to put up with this "crap" we call music?

and if pop music sucks then are you saying society sucks too? There's another negative. Society has its faults but I think it's nutty to connect that to music in any way.

I did? Even though, what I said in response to him was "The gist of what you say here is (that) Music and pop culture in general do certainly reflect back on us and who "we are" as a whole... ?

Everett is connecting who we are as a culture with the art that our culture reflects back. That is the gist of what he says. All the particulars, all the details are just his particular slant, based on the life he's led, and who he is.

Same for you. You see things the way you do because of who you are and the life you've led.

I was commenting on the gist of what he said, not his particulars. We've all got slants toward life. Biases. I don't let them upset me, it's just the way things are. If everyone was like you, or me , or Everett, the World would be a truly boring place to be.

Mike

Everyone has their own personality and experiences but that has nothing to do with realizing that everyone has different musical tastes and it should be respected. That's just being a decent person. When people continually insult music that people listen to because they don't like it, that's that person being a jerk for no good reason. Maybe I look like the jerk here. I don't care. I will defend music from the jaded and bitter because music is one of the most important things in my life and I love it.

Hi Aaron,



I agree. But where in what Everett says, is he disrespecting your musical tastes?

Everett says the following:

"I think music reflects the era that we live in"

This as I pointed out is the gist of what he's saying. You seemed to agree. This is the root from which springs his further thought. No disrespect yet? Next he says:

"The way this world is so messed up, it is no wonder that the music is the same way."

Basically, Everett has proposed a logical syllogism, with two premises/arguments, and a conclusion, as in

Music reflects (the current state of)the world.
The (current state of the) world is (that it's) messed up.
Therefore, it follows that music (in the current world) is messed up.


And his conclusion does indeed follow from those premises. If we accept the arguments, then the conclusion must follow and it's not even open for discussion. It's logic, and logic is airtight. Now..if we DO have a problem with the conclusion (the logical sum), then the fault lies in at least one of the arguments/premises. If you accept 2 and +3 then you must accept 5 as the sum, is what I am trying to say. So perhaps you disagree and think that the world is NOT messed up, and therefore his conclusion is false. That's perfectly fine. Only do realize that he has in no way dissed your music or anyone's music with his premise that the world is messed up! Okay, so far..perhaps you agree..no dissing of anyone's music, at least so far?

Next he says:

"There is so much drugs on the go that I am sure some songs are written, sung and listened to under the influence of drugs and alcohol"

Let's break that down..

"There's so much drugs on the go"--Everett's opinion, and perhaps debatable, but not a dis of anyone's music.

"..that I am sure some songs are written, sung and listened to under the influence of drugs and alcohol.."

Aaron, do you see that Everett qualifies his statement, there? The word "some" is the most important word. Or perhaps you disagree and think that NO songs have ever been written, sung, or listened to while under the influence of drugs and alcohol?

So Aaron, where then, in anything Everett says, is he dissing anyone's music?



How has he continually done this thing you allege him of doing? I count one post from him? Have I done that? Read every post of mine. I promote all music, at every turn, and really take offense, like you, when somebody tries to tell me that the music I like, or anyone else likes for that matter, is "crap." We just have different ways of expressing ourselves. I directly talk to the person whose ideas I have problems with, and try my best to be respectful. You on the other hand basically threw a tantrum:



You know, I would love to believe you are sincere here:

I will defend music from the jaded and bitter because music is one of the most important things in my life and I love it.


--which sounds like you are on a noble crusade, and all..but it's hard to feel any sincerity in that, you know? And that's because of the way you carry yourself. You don't attempt to have a conversation with Everett, you simply lash out at everybody, telling us all to stop, like this is your personal party and we're messing it up.

Everett is an elder statesman around here. He's a real human being, just like you. If you disagree with his thoughts, there are more classy ways of dealing with that disagreement?

Mike

Think this is at the heart of the argument:

Everett says the following:
"I think music reflects the era that we live in"

I think this is true, the era we live in is the backdrop of what is written. But you can write with or against the era, and there's a lot of rubbish on the charts that is only "following".

The best stuff, worthwhile listening to, that has a legitimate place in the market, is the stuff that is written against the dominant trends.

Basically writing and performing music is producing and performing culture. Culture is the backbones of the current social order, and when artists doesn't change or try to develop the social order of things, they become irrelevant as artists.

Artists in the sense, the people we think is legit to deliver inputs to shape our social order.

When they just "follow", they just reproduce what is. So, maybe some artists are too content, too preoccupied with impressing, and too little concerned about their real job.

But I don't think this is the case in general, on the contrary, most artists, and maybe ESPECIALLY in country, are concerned with what they put out and the reasons they do it.

Some of the names brought up in this thread certainly are.
But true, the names in the Internet teenage video, maybe not so much. At least not in the particular 6 songs the kid sampled from. But hey do you realize how little of published music those few selections represent. You can't even generalize ro these artists' own catalog, because every artist needs a variety of song in order to be able to perform for different venues, occasions and people.

Some plain folks in these forums aim to supply artists with songs as well, so we should stop whining and start grinding new ones out (note to self)..

You were not even alive back in the 60, so you are assuming that drug were easily available then, alcohol was. Drugs were starting to become available, but mostly the softer ones, not like today. In my younger days I use to drink a bit and while "feeling good" all music sounded good, but when cold sober, not so good. Back in the cold war days, many of the songs written reflected on the state of the world when young people didn't know if they had a future because they expected to be blown up with all the hydrogen bombs available. The hippy generation took on the attitude of lets live for today, tomorrow we may die. The music reflected how they felt.

We got past the cold war without blowing up the world, but we are in another state of confusion with groups like ISIS cutting off people's head just because they don't believe like they do. They are threating to take over the world and if you don't do as they say, off comes your head. So I guess there is a section of the population that just wants to stay high, party all the time, tune out the world, and much of the music I hear is just that, up tempo party music, saying the same things in a few different ways. Yes, some of the music back in my day was crap, but there was a lot of good songs too that said something about life in all aspects. No doubt there is a lot of good music today but for some reason I am not hearing much of it on the radio. Radio is suppose to cater to all ages not just the young. I know the young ones buy most of the music, same as in my day, but older ones will buy music too if they find something they like.

Whazzat?
You tryin' to find me some new music Michael Zaneski? Well, you will be happy to know I'm a prayin' for rain for you'all out there in the Golden, now mostly Brown State. As that old Charlie Walker song LITTLE OLD WINE DRINKER ME goes, I'm praying for rain in California, so the Grapes will grow and they can make more Wine. No kidding Google the song.

Holy Yesterday Batman!,
Just when you think you won't have Lefty, Webb, and Carl to deal with anymore there is a post over on Fox news, The Return of the Studibaker? As Gomer would say Golly!

Good points all MN Bob.

Peace brother!!


Movin on!

Duly noted. Can't help the hurt feelings, though. I speak off the cuff yet don't mean to offend. That's just me, brother. I'm just not one to doll up anything I feel passionate about. You say today's country is "deeper..." I say it's crap (with a few exceptions).

We're too far apart to take it any further.

Good luck.

I'm 44 years old. No kid.
And Ben Howard sounds very cool. I love RT, so I may check him out.

This is a Singer/Songwriter blog. If you are not willing to allot those to post their opinions, you should probably leave. Yes, there will be times when the same subject is posted, the same arguments heard, the same "whining" about the same issues......blah blah blah. Simply avoid it.

That being said, although I have a strong opinion about the state of affairs in the music business, I am also intelligent enough to know there are multiple sides to this issue and a vast array of opinions that arise from a multitude of experiences, tastes and knowledge.

To show I am a good sport, I'd like to post a "counterpoint" article that is related to the original post.

And although I often come across as corrosive in my mannerisms, I do try to look at both sides before I form an opinion. But I don't dance.....and un-apologetically so.

As far as the "whining".........guilty as charged, but this is a site where we blog our opinions, no? So shall it continue, as well as it will for those who "whine about the whiners."


12 Ways to be a Completely Bitter and Miserable Musician

Too many people fail to see the bigger picture of life as a musician and the miserable state of the industry. If you are one of these people and catch yourself feeling in some way cheerful, stop right away and follow this simple 12 step plan to guarantee your return to a completely horrid existence on this miserable rock.

Warning: Contains strong language. If you don’t like that, then you should probably still read on anyway, as it will just give you more reasons to be pissed off.

Without further ado.


1. Whine and complain

In your quest for ongoing professional misery it is imperative that you bitch and moan on a continual basis, especially about things that are out of your control. Unfortunately the world is not fair and the odds are always stacked against you.

But do not fear, there’s an easy way to get it off your chest and that is to simply unload your problems onto other people. Other people are almost always at hand so you should take every opportunity to remind them in intricate detail how life is much worse than they think it is. Then proceed to follow this up with a long list of examples.
Whine and Complain - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step #1)
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2. Focus on what sucks

There’s a lot of amazing music out there. It’s just a shame nobody realises how shitty it is. The human mind is capable of rationalizing pretty much anything, so why not rationalize that everything sucks? Just joined a new band? They probably suck. Just nailed that Victor Wooten lick? Whoopdy-sodding-doo, it still probably sounds lame and you’ll forget it by next week.

The world really can be a shitty place, if you’ll just let it.
Focus on what sucks - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step #2)
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3. Argue about absolutely everything

When you successfully focus on how everything sucks then it logically follows that you’re now going to have to spend a comparable amount of time convincing everybody else why that’s the case.

This works particularly well when somebody doesn’t agree with you on YouTube. Be sure not to let them get away with it. Set aside a few hours of your time to bring them up to speed on how stupid their opinion is and why it is wrong.

Additionally, once in a while, and completely unpredictably, pick a fight over something trivial and make unwarranted accusations where possible. This interaction should last ideally for the best part of an evening while ignoring your children and spouse.

Finally, well-intentioned friends and relatives can often be overwhelmed by the scale of your misfortune, sometimes to the extent of agreeing with you. Do not be fooled, this is merely a form of pity and you must remind them immediately to stop being such patronizing dicks.
Argue about absolutely everything - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step #3)
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4. Compare yourself to other musicians

Another sure fire way to increase your levels of bitterness and self loathing is to compare how shitty you are to your idols. Who cares that they gave up their social lives to practice 8 hours a day for most of their early lives? Obviously, that’s irrelevant. The smug old sods had just been lucky and born with it. The important thing to remember is that the world isn’t fair and your 30 minutes of practising too fast once a fortnight is probably a waste of time because your brain hates you and won’t let you get any better.
Compare yourself to other musicians - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step…
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5. Blame everything and everybody else

One of the most important steps in the quest for all encompassing despair is to realize how all your failures, shortcomings and problems are actually not your fault but rather that of soulless profiteers and other such unscrupulous bastards.

Think about it, your parents didn’t raise you properly, your teachers didn’t teach you properly, your band doesn’t do their job properly, the sound man can’t mix properly, the engineer can’t stop your drums sounding like cardboard, the government doesn’t support your career properly, your brain doesn’t have all the same neurons and [naughty word removed] that clever people do… What an absolute farce.
Blame everything and everybody else - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step…
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6. Regularly criticise other musicians

This is very important. It didn’t exactly take you years to develop a good ear for music, you were just naturally blessed with sublime taste and substance. If only everybody else realised it, right? Many new musicians, however, don’t understand why your music is the best.

Often times, you will come across videos of people demonstrating new patterns they’ve learned or new songs they’ve covered or written. When you encounter this, waste no time in pointing out how crappy they are. Feel free to tell them exactly what they’re doing wrong, but do not by any means offer any form of encouragement to these people, they are only going to get crappier and they need to know about it for their own good. Don’t worry, it’s only the internet, they’re not real people with real feelings you damn hippie.

On another note, you may also occasionally encounter naive musicians who don’t yet see the industry for the lackluster cacophony of wretchedness and rabid inanity that it is. Sometimes they are even clueless enough to have actual real-life hopes and dreams. Make it your duty to indoctrinate them into your world of sourness and hatred, pronto.
Regularly criticise other musicians - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step…
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7. Watch more TV

There is no better use of time in your pursuit of misery than to watch more television. As a matter of fact, TV advertisements, celebrity culture and, best of all, the news all serve to deliver an impressive dose of fear, self-loathing and disconnectedness with the outside world.

As an added bonus, all the time that you spend watching TV saves you having to practise at your craft, making you all the shittier and giving you even more to complain about. Score!!
Watch more TV - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step #7)
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8. Refute that somebody else might know something you don’t

Inevitably, as you go about your day to day despondency, some pompous, self-righteous [naughty word removed]-lord will attempt to prove you wrong at something. In this case, it is important to refute the statement outright, with no consideration for the accuracy or substance of their argument. Retaliate immediately with personal attacks on their character.
Refute that somebody else might know something you don't - How to be a completely bitter and…
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9. Quit when you make a mistake

Thomas Edison said “Many of life’s failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.” What a nitwit. What does he know about failure? Everybody knows that if you screw up a couple of times you’re not cut out for it.

Stop wasting your time, give up, switch on the TV and let those sweet, sweet feelings of inadequacy wash all over you. Feels good, doesn’t it?
Quit when you make a mistake - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step #9)
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10. Practise sustained bitterness

Cultivate the feeling that everything is rubbish and pointless and that people are only out to irritate you. Question yourself on a regular basis how such an inherently fascinating person like you wound up in such a completely tedious and unbearable industry ripe with bleeding idiots.
Practise sustained bitterness - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step #10)
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11. Live in the past

We all remember the good old days, things were much better back then. Unfortunately, however, you were born in the wrong place at the wrong time and so are destined for the remainder of your measly existence to bare the asinine nature of the modern day music industry.

The only solution is to live permanently in the past. Ignore all new media, ideas, education, music and art. There is nothing to be gained by engaging with such newfangled drivel. Recognise what’s gotten worse over time, which let’s face it, is pretty much everything.
Live in the past - How to be a completely bitter and miserable musician (Step #11)
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12. Enter into a continued state of pessimism and anxiety

Goal setting and optimism about the future only leads to inevitable disappointment, so to save time just expect band practice to suck eggs and all new music to be unoriginal and lame.

Steve Jobs said that “the only people who change the world are those who are crazy enough to think they can.” Obviously, whoever this clueless nutter is he never tried doing anything new. Experience shows that venturing outside your comfort zone and trying anything new is stupid and insane.
Enter into a continued state of pessimism and anxiety - How to be a completely bitter and…
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So that’s it! The super simple 12 step formula to guaranteed all encompassing misery as a musician.

Do you know anybody like this? What steps would you add to build further momentum on your journey of bitterness?

-Dave J Mason
http://musoblog.com/12-ways-completely-bitter-miserable-musician/


[EDIT 14/5/2015] For those who took this article a little too seriously, yes it was intended as satire. My only intention here was to make a point hit home with certain pockets of musicians that I am unfortunate enough to encounter on a regular basis, however, I can see how the irony was lost on me at the time. For the record, I don’t think I’m bitter, miserable or twisted but I can see why some would think so after reading this, haha! I do my best to be positive, encouraging and supportive to those involved in the Muso Database network and will continue to do so. If you have any comments (or if anybody else would like to correct my spelling) then please do so below!
-Dave

IF we have another 9/11 type moment ALL the Songs will change. SO it does reflect society. Right NOW people are Partying and drinking and trucking and young guys are on the prowl for young girls and that's what they are writing about. A real good one like DIRT comes along....Taledaga is a cool song BUT Then there are the stupid silly song like Little Red Truck by Miranda. They feel every few songs have to be silly I guess.
I just heard Vanilla Fudge doing You Keep Me Hanging On....and that was really terrific...also just heard Love n Spoonful SUMMER IN THE CITY...great sound to that one.

Are you saying people back 20, 30, 40 years a go weren't drinking and having a good time? They definitely were having a good time back then. I'm only reminded of it every time my dad or grandpa talk about their days. Your post is a bit confusing. Is that what you meant? I don't get what 9/11 has to do with anything. Music didn't change after 9/11.

Oh, but it did for a while,. It seriously did! But THAT's a whole other thread, and shouldn't sidetrack this one.

Midnite

I'm lookin at billboard for that time and years after i'm not seeing this change.

There were songs dedicated to the victims and patriotic songs but the themes remained the same.'

There's always been patriotic songs though.

Maybe with concrete examples you all can show me how music changed and STAYED changed because of 9/11. It can't be just for a few months after like banning songs or postponing tour. When you say changed you mean changed.

Right now i'm not seeing it. Sell me

Oh, Michael Michael Michael...

Didn't you learn anything from the movie "The Princess Bride?"

Never argue with a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

AND...And this was in the original script but got deleted due to time constraints:

It takes a lot to get even One Canadian riled up, let alone Two. It's wise to leave any north of the border battles alone, otherwise, you may find a pile of dead snow in your bed when you wake up...

Sorry...I often get The Princess Bride and The Godfather mixed up.

But seriously, for what it's worth. Everett is near and dear to my heart, and I hope he knows that!!!

I consider Aaron as one of the "youngbloods" here and swap PM's with him all the time, because I appreciate hearing his point of view and hope he hangs around forever!!!

But in regards to what one Canadian has written on this thread, and I'm saying this as someone who respects all things Canadian...98% of one Canadian's posts, on this thread, have been positive, and rather than leave him to defend it himself, I just thought I'd put in a good word on his behalf.

Kumbaya:-)

Midnite

I'll start another thread....Hopefully, "politics" can be left out, and we can focus on the Music...

A foolish thought, I know, but let's give it a shot and see how long it goes before it get's out of hand with "politics".

Midnite

Don't be messin with my Canukian Brutha from anutha mutha, Aaron my man!!!! I like that guy.

MAB

Sure it did.....a LOT of Pro America Songs, Soldier Songs and much less if any Party songs for a long time.....I remember that very clearly.

LOL.."The Princess Godfather" --a pile of dead snow in my bed..that's hilarious, Bob.

I will make sure Aaron knows that I respect him and think highly of him, because I certainly do. We have different ways of presenting our thoughts, is all. Perhaps his outburst was warranted, but I feel in my heart there are more constructive ways..and I think Aaron knows that, and I hope he also knows that I think he's pretty funny and a great guy, and that I, too, hope he hangs around, fo sho!

Mike

There is more bad music today. There is also more good music today.

The flaw in our thinking has been it's either one or the other. One fact stands above all others: there is simply a lot more music today, period. From that, it's easy to deduce that some is better and some worse.

But why even get into this "good/bad or better/worse" kind of thinking? Can't there simply be music that I like and music that I don't like? Why must we think divisively, and say there's music that I like and the rest is crap? It seems rather intolerant to me.

If progress and creating a less messed up world is about finding tolerance for others that are different from us and who may like different things than we do, perhaps finding a way to reshape our thoughts towards that tolerant way of being is helping the world become less worse..helping the world to becoming a better place?

The flaw in drawing the conclusion that music is worse today comes from accepting the premise (at face value) that "the world is worse" and that since music reflects the world we live in, that therefor the music, too must be worse.

The truth is that the world is worse in some ways, and better in others. And so the syllogism might be:

Music reflects the world in which we live.
The world today is worse in some ways, and better in others.
Therefore, the music of today is worse in some ways and better in others.

--and that's about as close to anything meaningful that can be drawn from that line of logic..

Mike

What about the other guy? lol

Everette,

I didn't see anybody dissin' you, and thought you already would know how much I think of you. But okay:

NOBODY BE MESSIN OR DISSIN MY CANADIAN BRUTHAS,SISTAHS AND TRANSGENDER PEOPLE!!!
I have spent three winters in WINNIPEG during Febuary and KNOW how hearty those people are!!! They earn their stripes with me all the time!!!
Luv me sum Canuks!!!!!

MAB

Never been in Winnipeg in winter or any time, but Newfoundland can be challenging weather wise in any season, only the tough stay here year around, the weaker ones head south for the winters. lol

Everett,

It all is a place only the tough survive. I had seen some cold winter places in my travels because I would go places in the winter most people wouldn't go. Minnesota, Michigan, and Wisconsin in winter. Pretty Brutal. But LORD Winnipeg was like sub zero ALL the time, five foot snow drifts, and very dangerous if you are not ready for it. But some amazing, hearty people, I care a lot for.

You guys have my admiration!
M

Indeed Marc, I just read that Cold kills 20 times more people than heat does in weather related deaths worldwide. It's not the extreme cold that kills as much either but the kind people underestimate.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cold-...hen-it-comes-to-weather-deaths-1.3081053

A couple of weeks ago I awoke to a band playing a song on one of the late night shows. The next morning I woke up and ordered their new album. Every song is a keeper.

Still plenty of good music being made. Sometimes it hits you over the head.

Edge of the Sun by Calexico. I've stopped listening only long enough to order a couple of their older albums.

Scott

Scott, I love Calexico!!

Pick up "Blood and Candle Smoke" by Tom Russell. It's produced by Calexico, and they're his band on there as well. Top Five All Time Album, for me. Listen at least to "The Most Dangerous Woman In America" for chills to run up and down your spine..

Mike

Thanks, Mike. I'll check it out!

Scott

Marc, our winters are fast warming up compared to when I was a boy. 40 and 50 below was the norm back then, with snow so high that people had to get out of their houses through windows on the second floor. There was a place on the railway line where trains use to be stuck for weeks at a time. So I guess there is something to this global warming. In another 50 years we may be growing oranges here.LOL

Everett,

They have found fossil records in Antartica of tropical plants and trees under hundreds of feet of Ice from a few million years ago. Maybe they will have palm trees coming your way soon.

MAB