JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum A song contest that delivers

We Are Listening, in association with Berklee College of Music, recently launched a short film highlighting the events and experiences of the winners� of The 2005 Singer/Songwriter Awards in London.

You can watch the film by logging on to www.wearelistening.org and clicking on Launch Film on the left.

The four members of Boston group, Walter the Orange Ocean, and Toronto based artist, Vivek Shraya, spent a weekend in London working with the UK�s finest music professionals.

Under the wing of producer Steve Williams (Sting, Seal, Eric Clapton) and mix engineer Simon Osborne (Sting, U2, Jimi Hendrix), the artists returned to their home country with a master of their winning song from Abbey Road Studios.

Not all the glory went to the winners. Chicago native, Jamie Lynn Fletcher, a runner-up in last year�s event, received The Berklee Songwriting Workshop Scholarship as part of the �awards� program. She will be arriving in Boston in August to attend classes.

We Are Listening, headed by Berklee graduate, Lior Shamir, work exclusively with Sonicbids.com, led by Panos Panay, also a Berklee graduate. The two music companies have been successful at raising the profile for The Singer/Songwriter Awards by appealing to US, Canadian and Australian artists� desire to access the European music market.

We Are Listening is currently accepting entries for The 2006 Singer/Songwriter Awards.

www.wearelistening.org

It sounds good, but even when I tried the button that said it would lead me to the price, it only led me to an "enter through SonicBids" button. One of my pet peeves is making people wade through a bunch of $#!^ or making them give up a bunch of info to get to the price. That's why I walk out of car dealers who try to jerk me around.

I'll bet there are a lot of other people who don't like that either.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Hello Mike,

I feel that wherever we put 'the fee', it will always hurt a little bit... if only it was free.

We, like many product/service providers I believe, try to get the user as interested as possible with as much information as possible before disclosing the inevitable. We realise that many people will want to know the price before anything else but also identify the users who experience our site, listen to the songs, watch the film, check out The Link Boutique and voice their opinions on our Blog page before even considering taking part in our song contest and spending any money at all.

I don't think we share the same tactics as a car dealer and encourage people to contact us if they are not sure what they can expect for their money. Most significantly, we find that people continue to return to our site whether they have taken part in anything or not. That is a good sign and one that a car dealership rarely sees.

If you feel that the fee should be on our Home page, let me know. On another page perhaps?

Many thanks for your feedback.

Lior Shamir
Managing Director
We Are Listening
www.wearelistening.org

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I completely agree with Mike here.

I would have liked to see all the information about prices and dates for the contest on the home page.

While you may not agree with this, I think it gives a somewhat dishonest feel to the site -- when people have to FIRST give personal information.

It's like going to the grocery store and not knowing how much each item costs until it is scanned on the cash register.

Just my two cents.

Emily
emilysanders.net

[This message has been edited by Emily Sanders (edited 04-02-2006).]

Lior,

We've spoken before when you were doing this in 2005. I am sorry, but if you refuse to openly disclose the price, it's a scam. Yes, I'll say it again. If you are not willing to be UPFRONT on your pricing, that can ONLY mean it's unreasonable and not worth it.

If we can do the worlds largest music awards 100% for free, you should be able to do your awards with a reasonable fee and be upfront about it.

I have to recommend to all JPF members not to do business with this contest until they are 100% forthcoming with their fees.

Brian

This is disappointing.

In response to Mike's comments, I asked where he or anyone else feels we should add the fee (which is $30). The suggestions we receive are always addressed.

Brian, I don't think that at any point my comments reflected "refusal", "unwillingness" and/or "non-disclosure" about anything. If we are not doing something right, tell us and we will act but not like this.

Besides, listening to the music on our site, watching the video, contributing to the Blog, applying for The Link Boutique and communicating with us directly is FREE - no scam - and if you don't see the value in this, you might consider doing it anyway to support the many artists who did spend $30 per song to enter last year's event if for nothing more than a little exposure.

Mike - we will link the 'Entry Fee' quick link directly to our partner, Sonicbids, so you can see the fee in one click.

Thanks.

Lior

On your website, if you click the link that says Entry Fees, there's ZERO info on the fee. If you click the link that says Rules, there's ZERO info on the fee. Seems like both should clearly state the fee.

I also question the integrity and honesty behind your claim that you are the world's "Premiere" song contest. Based on what exactly? Size? Diversity? Longevity? Inclusiveness? Innovation? Quality? Judging Criteria? I don't see where you rank in the top 10 in any of those categories. So what makes YOU the world's "Premiere" anything?

Obviously you're doing this to make a buck. Fine. But how about being upfront about the fees and how about making reasonable assessments of the validity and importance of your nearly brand new and mostly unknown for profit song contest? You have a ways to go to catch the Grammy's, the John Lennon Songwriting Contest, the USA Songwriting Contest, Unisong, WAMA, the GMA's, the CMA's, The Billboard Song Contest or even the realitively new NSAI Song contest. Not to mention the Just Plain Folks Music Awards. You have a bit of a credibility issue here. How about doing away with the Car Salesman tactics of hiding the price and making unsubstantiated and false claims of grandiosity and just being straight forward and honest about your vision, methods and goals (aside from making a profit)?

Brian

In terms of credibility, we have a strong team of industry professionals who act as our music judges. We have included the profiles of each of them on our Judges page:

http://www.wearelistening.org/judges.php

In terms of diversity and judging criteria, we run a genre-free song contest. In other words, all of the songs are evaluated equally, irrespective of the musical style. The judges are also required to consider the ‘delivery’ or performance of the piece as well as the composition when making their selections.

As for an innovative approach, we do not award cash prizes because we want to ensure that the budget we have for each winner is spent where it is needed most. We will support artists by producing their songs, duplicating their records, launching their websites etc., depending on their individual needs. As such, we are not dependent on sponsors to provide us with prizes – we pay for it ourselves and do so by charging the entry fee.

We are a small organisation and aim to keep it this way. We do not have a lyrics-only category, foreign language or instrumental submissions because we do not have a powerful entry point into these respective markets. We expect significantly less entries than other contests for this reason and rely on our ability to access the ‘commercial’ music market to advance these winners’ careers – this is the ultimate prize. Keeping the numbers low also ensures that we have time to listen to everyone properly and periodically, and present our catalogue to our contingents. As for longevity, time will tell…

I believe that all the contests that you mentioned are based in the US or Canada. We are a UK music group and, before we formed the song contest, worked hard at bridging the gap between the US and Europe. This is very difficult due to the differentiating licensing laws of all the territories, especially in continental Europe and, of course, the logistical cost and risk of flying new talent across the Atlantic where they are unknown and perform to an unfamiliar music listening/buying audience… only to send them back again. Simply put, we felt that new, independent artists are being catered for through all kinds of schemes, especially online, and saw a niche for a project of discovery and promotion for artists who wish to tour, promote and sell records away from home. The song contest is a self-financing method of bringing a handful of artists to a new music market each year. Where it is not, we seek an alternative and have yet to make a profit from it.

Brian, you are a harsh critic and I beg of you to find the good in what we do as well as the bad. The word “premiere” is just part of a tag and reflects what we believe. It’s not a claim but rather an opinion. Honestly, we believe that we are in the top 10 at what we do (in spite of the number of entries we receive and the money we make) and thought a French word that means ‘first’ and widely used in British English (not pronounced pre-meer) would depict our European roots.

Lior

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Brian can be harsh--when he feels it is justified--He can also be kind--(which he mostly is)--TOUGH would be a better choice of word--He is tough---but fair--The Michigan songwriting contest was $25 also---BUT is was right there in your face on the website--and no one from here complained (a few questions maybe).
Here it is
http://www.justplainfolks.org/ubb/Forum30/HTML/000175.html

Ifyourelistening

On your home page, in big screaming letters, "ONLY $30...Look what it gets you...." and "sell" as you move them through your back pages toward the entry form

It's honest and people WILL look because they will want to see for themselves.

I too went to your site, and when it did not immediately tell me, I left.

You can send Brian $30 for that tip.

I agree with Brian and the other members here at JPF. Your contest is not "premium" unless it ranks as one of the best - the word "premium is not a 'tag'", it carries a meaning and in your case is very deceptive. Why not just be honest about the what your contest is all about? Why not be up front about the entry fee? The more deceptive you are the less likely I for one feel comfortable about entering.
Oh, and Lior if you want to give the impression that you are professional, put on a shirt! Your photo is a real turn-off. There is something very sleazy in your presentation.

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Imagine Peace,
Howard Pavane
Memberships: SGA, JPFolks, Sonicbids, SongU

Please stop by to learn about my music at http://www.songu.com/members/howardpavane and http://www.sonicbids.com/HowardPavane2.

[This message has been edited by Music Duck (edited 04-12-2006).]

lior, I think I'd second most of the stuff that's been said previously--harsh and otherwise. (The harsh ones, I think, come from people with a lot of experience swimming in shark-infested waters.)

As a bookkeeper (part of my day job), the first question I always have--before ever hearing a proposal--is "What's it going to cost me?" I will filter out a lot of proposals right there; however desirable they are, I just can't afford them. *Then* I'll ask (for the rest) "What do I get out of it if I give you that money?"

Anybody who wants my money for *anything* has got to answer those two questions up front or they don't get my money. I see no reason to be embarrassed about it--*I*'m not embarrassed when I ask for money.

Looking back, it appears all the song contests I've ever entered were ones that answered those two questions right up front. You do this, I'll consider yours, too.

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

Hello again.

Herbie, I visited the link you posted, clicked on the Great Lakes Contest and didn't find a fee on the home page.

When I clicked on 2006 Contest, the fee was posted with the rest of the information. I didn't feel that this was wrong or misleading but also no more 'upfront' than our website.

Fair play regarding my photo Howard :-D I was hoping to capture my youth and semi-good looks to show off to the kids when they, eventually, go online. I'll change this though... ouch!

Joe, there is no need to enter unless you are absolutely confident about the service you can expect to receive. We are working on wonderful new things for emerging artists and there will be no fee to partake. We encourage individuals to keep an eye on us for a while before spending money on the contest... if ever.

We take pride in the knowledge that many entrants who entered in the past, entered or will enter again this year, even if they didn't even make the Honourable Mentions list in 2005.

Lior
www.wearelistening.org

As far as I am concerned, any songwriting contest that asks for an entry fee is a waste of time. I am still waiting to hear about any major cut that has come ditectly from a songwriting contest.

The ONLY people who seem to benefit from these kinds of contests are the people who put them on. There are so many of them out there. I might be willing to enter a contest put on by an artist where the prize is a guaranteed cut on an upcoming album, but I have never seen one like that.

Many of the promotions are also misleading (e.g., the VH1 contest which is not really affiliated with VH1). If you need constructive feedback, it is much better to pay for a professional critique from established pros like Jason Blume.

'Contests', in any field, are successful. Almost all require you to subscribe to a membership, buy a product, pay a fee or sign a contract (except jpfolks of course!).

Large brands often run contests to increase brand awareness, market research and generate sales. In my opinion, one way or another, you pay.

American Idol, Pop Idol, Fame Academy, X-Factor and all the syndications in almost every nation I can think of have launched careers. Yes, all the contestants could take part without paying at the door but have little control over their careers if they are selected.

These shows can not afford to select a winner who may not feel like singing a certain song, do a press conference, go on a diet or perform to an audience of twelve year olds. As such, they are legally obliged.

Although, to many, this is a small price to pay for a blessing, it IS a price and, sometimes, for a blessing in disguise.

What we offer is for free agents. Whether you win or not, you are free to do as you want with your art and the business of it. We charge you at the door, upfront, no strings... but I assure you, when British Airways decides to sponsor us, we will waive this (for a short survey and an email blast perhaps).

www.wearelistening.org

"The British Airways Singer/Songwriter Awards"

There are other ways of getting feedback. Trophies might be worth the entry fee for you, but that isn't why I write songs. I am not dissing you, BTW. I was just saying that for me, personally, contests are a waste of time.

There is a HUGE difference between signing a recording contract and getting a trophy to put on your shelf. Moreover, idol contestents don't have to pay an entry fee to audition. As I said before, I know of no cases of someone scoring a major cut from a contest. You really have to ask yourself why that is? If contests were such a great way to find cuttable songs, I would think that you would see more being offered with winners getting cuts. The only reason I can think of for this not being the case is that the quality of the submissions is so low that it isn't worth the time and effort to use them to find needles in the haystack. On the other hand, there seems to be new contests all the time. Again, one might ask why. Could it be that it is an easy way to score some cash from really bad submissions?

Exactly HOW MUCH money do you make from these contests? What is your net income?

Could it be that there is a demand for song contests?

Yes, there is a demand for song contests because songwriters are very insecure & a lot of them will gladly fork over $5 - $10 & more$$$ in the hope of getting some kind of 'official' confirmation that they don't totally suck.

<sigh>

Midnite(I give up)Bob





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Satchel was right...Something is gaining on me....
www.jackcouldntmakeit.com

Yes of course there is a demand for song and songwriting contests because people are looking for exposure and an opportunity to have their work judged....all in the course of chasing a dream, secretly or overtly.

Knowing this, there are so many shysters out there who are simply in it for the money and who do nothing for artists.

Not that I am tarring you with this brush, but I'm sending you a clear message. If you want to be an honest, opportunity providing songwriting conest, be open and above board in everything you do.

And stick with it. Four years from now your reputation will have gotten around, one way or the other.

But starting out, you HAVE to set yourself apart from the shyster crowd and be TOTALLY above board.

Count yourself lucky you have an audience here actually trying to help... and I laud you for coming back with a discussion instead of a rant.

Now you don't have to take our advice, and you could bury the details, but....we could be right.

So once more. Lead with your price, support with your value...no half truths, and deliver on all your promises.

To this and any contest. Put the fee and the prize up front, don't make any unquantifiable claims and outline your judging methods...all in easily accessible places...and I have no problem with you.

Personally, the only two music contests I've ever entered were the Chicago Folksining Contest in 1968 (first place, the second year's first place was Kevin Cronin of REO Speedwagon) and last year's JPF lyric contest (no place). Neither had a fee and both were connected to organizations with which I've had a relationship. I'm just not a contestant. Making money at music is hard enough and takes enough time, I can't justify the time and/or money it takes to enter a contest. I have nothing against them, though.

For some folk, contests are great. You can, for example, tell your Mom, "See, I'm not wasting my time with this music stuff...look at this nice award...now can I borrow enough money to buy a frame?" (Just kidding, there's a place for contests and contestants.)

So keep it up front, don't argue with Brian (otherwise known as "The Hand That Feeds You.") Run a clean contest, and keep in touch.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music