JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Musician Message Forum Time Signatures

Hi! Just Plain Folks...Brian, and so many of my friends...I haven't posted anything for a couple of years due to long term illness and computer problems...but finally think I may be back in business...It was so wonderful to get a call from JeanB Christmas time...she made the Holidays quite special. Thanks again, JeanieBKnees!

My music question is wondering how many have you seen some very perhaps unusual time signatures? Like 9/8,9/4? I am under the impression that there are really only about 4 recognized time signatures....all others would only be either multiples of measures or extension of number of syllables per measure. Otherwise--2/2, 3/4, 4/4, 6/8.................any comments are appreciated.
Thanks....Sharon Wells

Hey Sharon,

Very glad you're back in business.

I'd add 12/8 to your list...that's like "Blueberry Hill."

Usually, time sigs in pop music relate to dancing. That's why those are the most common. Adding a 3/4 bar in a song of all 4/4 makes the dancers fall over.

There are unusual time songs. The best of them don't "feel" unusual. "Money" by Pink Floyd is in 7/4 but people dance to it all the time. "Take 5" by Dave Brubeck is another famous one...he did a whole series of odd time songs, including my fave "Blue Rondo ala Turk." And, wasn't the old Mission Impossible theme in 5/4?

In the sixties and seventies, rock musicians experimented with odd times (they experimented with a lot of other odd things). The Grateful Dead did things in 11/4 and one I recall in 10/4 called "Playing in the Band," which some folks argue is in other times. Those were other times.

Math, being what it is, all times break down into duple or triple segments, sometimes a duple segment will be subdivided in triple segments and verse vica, sometimes one will "overlay" the other as in the famous Creedence version of "Midnight Special." Odd times are almost invariably a combination of duple and triple...for example, "Money" sounds to me like 3/4 then 4/4, and "Take 5" sounds to me like 3/4 then 2/4.

The most important time in music is the "good time." If you're having one...it's good music.

All the Best,
Mike

Post deleted by Sharon Wells

Thank you very much, Mike....it's probably mostly musical artist's license for reasons' other then dancing! That's what we all like to claim, anyway!
It's great to be back in business, thanks....I'm in the process of creating sheet music for a friend that's been in the country music for over 40 years.........he has many folks asking for sheet music to his compositions and he doesn't read music. It's definitely a real challange for me!

Congratulations on your improved health, Sharon!

Here's a few obvious standouts, beyond the 6/8, 12/8 & 3/4 stretch:
Peter Gabriel Solisbury Hill - 7/4
Sting Love Is Stronger Than Justice - 7/4
Sting Seven Days - 5/4
several others by Sting...
Rush Turn The Page - 6/4
Rush Superconductor - 7/4
Yes Cinema - 7/4

I felt good about actually getting getting 2 different pieces written (unintentionally!) in 3/4 this last year. Neither of which have been recorded yet. I think it is a good goal to try to stretch beyond the common times though, as the bars of the old cage need to be moved occasionally.

Good topic!

Jeff

Howdy Sharon!!

Welcome back! Glad to hear you're ridin' again!!

Music theory isn't exactly my area of expertise, but I notice that Jazz styles often go into some interesting time signatures. On some traditional Jazz songs I can't even find the downbeat sometimes!

In that vein, I remember quite a few Steeley Dan songs that change time signature. For example "Aja" which, if I remember correctly, has 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4 measures.

I remeber learning an instrumental song by Carl Verheyen called "Big Sur" that, I think, is in 11/8 time. That's the wierdest one I've ever played and a real challenge to count!

Chuck Crowe

Hi, Sharon! Glad to see you back on again.


I think Take 5 may be in 5/4 time as well . Say, do you think the title was a play on words. Like it could mean "Take 5" (breaktime) or take 5 quarter notes. OK. Perhaps I am reaching a bit.

I've seen some odd ones, but not beyond what's being talked about here.
I mean to record a PD song here in a bit that switches between 3/4 and 4/4 between the verse and chorus, with an odd 3/4 measure thrown into the verse here and there.
I was wondering if I could just tell GarageBand it was a 12/4, and make it work?
It doesn't let you change time sig. or tempo during the track.

Even so--what IT thinks the downbeat is, will still be off while the metronome's counting, because of the odd measures tossed in. It's not hard to play or sing, but it IS hard to lead it.

So.... does anyone know any recording software that allows for changes like these to be programmed in, and counted right?
Clearly changing tempos, key, and signature is common musical practice. You'd think more software would allow for these sorts of things. ???

Thanks for any input! I don't mean to hijack the original purpose... sorry if I did!

Linda

Oh--sorry--I also wanted to mention "Millionaire Waltz" by Queen has a bazillion time sig. changes. I haven't mapped out what they all are--but it's pretty complex.

Just had to work that in!
Linda

Thanks, Jeff, it's certainly enlightening to hear about more and more different "odd" time signatures! Oh, how great to be an individual! ha ha

Hi, Chuck! Thanks for the reply and greetings! I remember "Big Sur! But didn't remember it being such a strange time signature!
Best wishes, so good to see you all around here!

Hi JeanieBKnees! What a laugh....thanks...guess you could look at "Take Five" either for a break or count of five notes or syllies!
Thanks, so much again for your Holiday call! Meant a bushel of goodness to me!

Thanks, Linda, for bringing up an interesting song with changeable time signatures...I think 12/4 's might cure all problems....ha ha
Most notation software has a "correct" command on them, so that should someone "goof" for hitting the assigned time signature, it'll tell one right quick....course it doesn't correct if a person intentionly inserts or deletes notes within a measure....unless the pro-Finale does!

Hey again Sharon!

I think you're thinking of another "Big Sur". I recall a hit a loooong time ago with that name but I've forgotten who recorded it.

The one I'm speaking of is about is an instrumental guitar piece about a minute and a half in duration. Dunno where you could find it to hear it. Maybe Carl has a clip up somewhere...

Chuck

You're right, Chuck I was thinking of the "Big Sur" I think I heard on a movie....been so long ago...I can't remember where that was....I want to say a western....but then I'm probably wrong again! Best wishes.

Thanks, Sharon,
I sure don't know if the proFinale version lets you add an "odd" measure or not. Might be nice!
Linda

Finale will alert someone who tries to put too many notes in the measure if you select that as an option in simple entry. I have Finale 2006 but it doesn't have an option to tell you if you have too few. That would be a nice feature. There is 2007 out. Maybe the new one does. I will check it out.

In Finale NotePad, if you put too few notes, when you move to the next measure it adds rests for you--at the END of the measure--even if your "missing" note was at the beginning or in the middle. It can be frustrating--esp. if you were just going up to click on the "rest" button to fill it in.
But--it's better than nothing, and you can't beat the price tag on NotePad.

A friend of mine swears by his full-featured 2000 version, and says it's not that much different from newer versions. Sometimes you can find the full package out there on eBay for less, if you don't mind a 2003/2004 Finale. I haven't invested in it yet, but I will someday.

Linda

Linda

The 2004- 6 is better than the newer versions. For Notepad users, if you download the 2001 version it will open midi files and notate them. You have to clean it up by hand a little afterwards but it works. The later versions won't.

For those who don't need the big version of Finale they have little versions that are more affordable. If you are an educator or a choir director (or musician) for a church, you can get a special price. Also if you have a different notation program and you turn it in, you get a trade-in reduction.

Finale isn't for everyone. You have to understand a little about notation to be able to use it effectively, even if you are using the feature that allows you to play in the notes via a musical instrument. On the other hand it is a great help if you want to learn to read music better and learn to notate. But unless you really need all the bells and whistles, it's probably better to buy closer to your learning level.

If you haven't tried Sibelius yet, it is definitely worth a look. I don't own it yet, as I'm just about to get a new computer. But the college where I'm doing my masters degree has both Finale & Sibelius for our use & it is so much more user friendly with at least as many features as Finale. I will be purchasing & using Sibelius for my final project.

Jeff

Yikes!
A bit off topic there, wasn't I?
Sorry. Maybe time for a new thread.

Jeff

No, Jeff. It was brought up by the original poster so we aren't thread jacking. But it would be a good idea to bring it up in another post.

Jean,
I don't know if you've heard of the alternative/rock/metal band TOOL. They are very popular in their genre and use a ton of "weird" time signatures in their music. It is not uncommon to find 9/8, 7/8, 5/8, 5/4, 6/4, and 7/4 in their music. They even will sometimes alternate the time signatures from measure to measure to give the riff a very "unpredictable" feel. Mike mentioned earlier in the thread that each of these can be divided into subdivisions of duples and triples and I've found this valuable to be able to count these depending on how fast the tempo.
Here are a few others:
Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6 2nd Mov. 5/4 (5/8)
Shostakovich Fugue No. 15 (Alternates 3/4,5/4,4/4)
Led Zeppelin-Four Sticks (Verse 5/4, (5/8))

Jeff,
I have Finale 2005 and I love it. Most people used to say Finale was better for Midi music creation, but I produce pretty good scores with it. Sibelius, however is the motherload of all music scoring programs. My composition professor uses it and I found that there was a large learning curve for the use of the program. The playback of the parts seems to be much more realistic on Sibelius though I haven't heard Finale 2006 or 2007's playback. This for me is one of the most important features for me. Especially when writing for instruments I don't play.

Nate

Jean,
You mentioned Take Five and asked if it was a play on words. I presume you were being rhetorical, but yes of course it was a play on words. That album was a milestone in popular jazz music because it was entirely devoted to odd time signatures. Every tune on it was an exploration of odd signatures and it is a truly GREAT album. Take Five, the tune, was obviously the most popular and well known of the tunes, but everything on that album was so lyrical while exploring the odd timings. It was not the first recording to use an odd time signature, but it was the first the was done entirely as an exploration into odd time signatures. It demonstrated just how lyrical you could be without having to resort 3/4 or 4/4 (or variants) times.

Jack

Thanks, Jack. Now I want to hear the rest of the album.

Oh, Nate. 2006 sounds way better. Now they 2007, and I may get it. 06 and 07 comes with a library of Garritan Personal Orchestra Sounds.

It's said that Finale is better for engraving and publishing and Sibelius is better for sequencing but I think both may improving evolving to be more versatile. Perhaps it's like Mac and PC. Both are good, just depends on personal taste.

There's lots of crazy time signatures out there. Lots of the really bizarre ones I've came from certain metal bands.

Randy Rhoads had a bunch of time changes in Diary of a Madman with Ozzy. The pulse of the music stays consistent in 8th notes, but the feel around it changes from part to part. So of it was in 7, some in 9, some in 12. Heck there's even a part at the end that is 6 + 6 + 5. I think I've also seen it as 3 +3 +3 +3 +3 + 2 (depends on who does the transcription).

Another band that was notorious for odd meter but making it sound simple was Queensrÿche. Lots of their songs had odd time signatures. Their biggest hit Silent Lucidity in the intro was 15/16. Then when the singing starts it's like 2 bars of 4/4 and a bar of 15/16. Pretty nutty, not the kind of thing you count but rather you just play it with the correct feel. At least I never counted it out. They also did time sigs like 3 + 3 + 2 as well.

Really you can make a time signature anything you like as long as it gets the feel of what you're doing across.

Jody

Hi Sharon,

Glad everything is going better for you. I was just pondering this question yesterday because I have a song I have been working on and wanted to establish the meter. I have realized I have it in 9/8 time and dropped six beats at the end of the first chorus.
I looked through a songbook I have and found:
Fooled Around And Fell In Love by Elvin Bishop 12/8

The Impossible Dream by Joe Darion and Mitch Leigh 9/8

Vondelle

Hi Sharon.Hope your doing much better.I am not trained in music so im not sure about this but check this out.Its something i recorded with a crazy time thingy,haha
http://www.mjmrecords.com/media/Living%20A%20Dream/02%20Time%20Dont%20Wait.mp3
What is this tme signature?

One thing I noted reading an odd time bit of sheet music the other day was that any whole notes were written a tie note going into the next bar.
7/8 from memory.
I gather, no matter what value we give the note on the bottom, a whole note alway remains four, or multiples of that.
I think????
Graham

Graham,

Yeppers.

The value of notes always remain the same. A whole will be four quarters, a half will be two quarters, a quarter is fifteen minutes, no wait, that's football, well American football. Anyway, the note values are the same, but the meter changes (which keeps the water company in money).

If you have 7/8 time, 7/8 does not a whole make. Nor a hole. If it takes one man eight minutes to dig a whole, how long does it take him to dig 7/8 of a hole? Well, any hole is a whole hole. Ha!

So, in 7/8 time, you can have a minim, but not a semibreve. Wait a minim, I need a rest! Anyway, the minim is a half note, the semibreve is a whole note. There are double whole notes also. That would be eight quarters or a game at noon and one at three thirty.

Some mistakenly think that a whole note fills a measure. Why, in 5/4 time, a whole is only four fifths of a measure! I'm taking the fifth on this and you can measure it when I'm done. On the whole, I've reached the final quarter. It's the two minute warning and looking at the score, I'm beat.

All the Best,
Mike

HI Sharon,
Sure am glad to see you posting again. I think you had a oretty tough time and we about lost track of you for a while. Onwards and upwards.
I don't know enough about music to contribute, being more lyricist than musician. On the melody, I just keep messing with it till it sounds right to me.
Wy

Thanks each and every one for their input into "Time Signatures" it's been a very enlightening topic to say the least.

Thanks again, Mike....I like the way you give the information and then slip out of the responsibility portion...LOL but then that's a great thing for levity....thanks again

Wyman, it's great to hear from you again also....thanks so very much. I'm learning to appreciate those who play it by ear and still make it sound good! The long time professional country musician I'm working with right now is something else and surprisingly I'm able to work with him...having been a "note" reader myself and adhering to written musical theory, etc. and he plays entirely by ear: but we've made a pretty good composing team....now I'm teaching him how to play the piano long distance....this guy would challenge an aborigine if he could find one...LOL Thanks again....Wyman and everyone else....it's been a very interesting topic

I'm not much of a music reader and time signatures can get a bit technical for me. Frankly anything other than 4/4 or 2/4 and I am a bit lost. The reason for this comment is that I mess around with MIDI FILES (a bit of a hobby)and one time I imput the wrong time sig by accident. This happy little accident changed the whole feel of the song. I have discovered some real funky stuff playing a standard midi file with different time sigs. Once I was messing around with the Stevie Wonder song Superstition and I changed the System exclusive, tempo and time sig by accident. The result a slow hypnotic funk and completely different song arrangement that we love playing with the band. If you are into Midi try different tempos and time sigs. It can really change the feel of the piece. Interested to hear if anybody else plays a standard song with different tempos or time sig.

Jim, I do. Picked up the trick from another bluegrass band I heard perform, that did a version of "My Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys" as a very fast two-step. It sounded good, and audiences loved it.

I did the same thing for the Dodson Drifters with "The Lightning Express," one of those classic pieces of 1920s necrophilia. It was written as a waltz. We did it in 4/4 time--it's a train song, after all--starting off really slow and then gradually increasing speed until the very end, the band is cooking. In 4/4 time, it is about the happiest song I have ever heard about death.

Only weird time signature song I ever dealt with personally was "Farther Along," an old Gospel number that's written in 9/8 time. Most folks play it as a waltz--and that does work. But in 9/8 time, that song *moves*. Really fun to play.

Joe

I love 9/8. A fast 9/8 in Irish music is known as a "slip jig." If you stress the third count, it's often called a "hop-jig."

Figuring the time signature is more an art than a science. A lot of it is up to discretion. Basically the top number tells you how many, and the bottom number tells you what kind of note values are in the measure. For example, in 9/8, there are nine beats in the measure and the eighth note or rest constitute one beat.

No matter how wild the time signature gets, you can always divide it up into threes and twos. It's either babaloo or it's bubba. five four is either babaloo bubba or bubba babaloo. Seven four as in the Pink Floyd "Money" would be Bubba Bubba Babaloo.

Mike "Bubba Babaloo" Dunbar

I don't know a thing about time sigs. I know 3/4 4/4 and sorta 2/4. that's about it. But I read Mike's post and realized I had one song done in 5/4 It uses the bubba babaloo beat which I finger pick.
Go figure.

Bill,

Make sure that the syllables are even. If you use a metronome it would go: bu-ba-ba-ba-loo, all in even beats.

bubba

Hi Mike Great advice
Thanks for help. I have learned more from you in seconds than I could have picked up in years. Beats and bars mean nothing to me but the bubaloo bit and metronome I can understand that.

Thanks Jim,

I get a real kick when I can help someone understand something. Maybe it's because I'm a slow learner and am really exhilerated when the "aha!" moment comes, it makes me want to share it.

All the Best,
Mike

This subject just gets more educational all the time....Mike thanks again....I think I'm getting an big "AHA"! myself here..

I didn't realize that the midi program could sure turn a melody around into another song almost....isn't that something, there!

Thank you to everyone that's contributed to this very educational topic....

Hi Graham...thanks for the question....I just got a melody line back today that has whole notes in several measures succeeding...I don't think I've ever seen that....I'll perhaps be a bit more cognizant of the value of that when the words are set to the melody! Thanks and greetings

Our keyboard player says that time sigs and tempos mimic and stimulate the heartbeat. IE when in the womb we hear our mothers heartbeat and changes in ITS rythm can relax us or excite and stimulate us. When we hear a piece of music it subconsciously reaches this retained memory affecting our moods and feelings. He says that many books and articles have been written on the subject. It is probably why music was invented and developed and why mothers sing lullabys and why we tap our feet etc etc. He might have a point.

Thanks Big Jim....Pulse of life..tide goes out with a life force, it comes in with a life force....we hear that as you say in our mother's womb....every breath taken is a pulse of life...every heartbeat is a pulse of life...those two thing affect every other sense and behavior of mankin; rythms of life....and man will mimic what he hears unconsciously and what he feels subconsciously......yes, you're right thank you very much

Hi Sharon
I've only just joined this site, so hello!
I have this friend who's a drummer, and for obvious reasons, is always talking about time signatures...kind of interesting for a while, but it used to just leave me cross-eyed. Lol. He'd put on endless weird time signature cds, I mean impossible timings, and then just get lost in his own little world...sometimes you just want a chat and a coffee with a friend! I can't really work really complex time signatures out. So I leave it to the drummers!
Cathy

Hi Cathy.
Yeah drummers do know a lot about time sigs. It is just a pity that some of them cannot stick to them. Ha Ha Ha.

LOL! Or the ones that can, just carry right on drumming when everyone else has stopped playing and are trying to talk about something! Drummers, you gotta love em

Yeah or hate em. Its a love-hate business

One of my favorite time signature changes is by Jason Robert Brown, in the new rock musical Thirteen. The chorus for the title song switches 4/4, 2/4, then 7/4 - and then 4/4, 2/4, and 7/4 again...

or, in other words: 13/4.

Cathy, welcome aboard...as it's said drummers march to their own beat........but as my music professor told me years ago...."No time, no music." But he didn't tell me about the artistic license for throwing out all kinds of stranges time signatures....guess he thought I'd learn that within my own right. HA HA