JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Getting cut by a major artist

Hey Mitch,

Thanks for joining in.. lots of interesting discussion on this one.

Brian

I'm about to begin pitching right now. Eric Beall, a professor at BerkleeMusicOnline, has a great blog at berkleemusicblogs.com. And just today he wrote how you are your best publisher. You have to do what the big publishers do..build relationships, know who is recording what, and get them your hits. I write R&B Music, and I've set up my own publishing company, Speak-EZ Music. I also send songs through my manager, but even signed writers have told me that they still seek out cuts on their own. So I'll keep the board posted on how my process is going. Currently I have about seven songs I want to pitch to various artists like Janet Jackson, Mariah Carey, Jojo, Toni Braxton, Mario, and Avant. They are all currently working on projects. And like someone on this board said, I believe in myself. I don't focus on the improbable. I just want to work hard, build relationships, be nice, and let God take care of the rest. That's what we are supposed to do.

Let me save everybody some trouble here! I am completely convinced of one thing on getting a cut. IT IS WHO YOU KNOW!!! Without a doubt. The odds if getting a cut just sending something here or there is extremely low. EXTREMELY LOW! I have been at this for over 20 years. First of all aside from having to be a great songwriting to just even get in the door then you have the battle of the competition of beating out other songs from writers who do have their foot in the door. I hate to sound like Debbie Downer.

I have been sitting here asking myself how long do you keep at it?? I keep spending money on my own personal CD's and then have gone to cutting demo's with other writers only to find out it is still so hard, still so discouraging. Heck on SONGU only 2 people have ever had a song on hold for a big artist. GEEZ! How does that make everyone feel? And yet we all keep chasing after the big dream. Having someone BIG cut our songs.

I have had my song sit in a office in LA considered for a movie once. That fell through. I just got off of the Texas Songwriters Cruise where I had an extremely famous Country songwriter (Written songs for Diamond Rio, Rascal Flatts and Keith Urban) tell me after he critiqued a brand new country song I co wrote that it was a definate for a cut in Nashville. That was all nice and dandy that he told me that. It made my day. But do you think he took that song with him to help me out and perhaps get it to a person that could? I don't think so. Because then suddenly, I would be in direct competition for a cut he might get. Folks, it is so cut throat it's not even funny. This guy is super nice, but not in the position to take me along with him.

So....how do we find the people that can REALLY help us with that song that could make it?? If someone knows that BIG SECRET to unlock the mystery of this please let me know. I am gonna keep trying. But I still am completely convinced that you have to be friends or know someone connected with that big artist to even get a listen. It is so disheartening. So I guess I just keep writing because I love to. If something happens it does, if it doesn't, it doesn't. I have pitched many different avenues and maybe there are a million more yet to find and try.

Good luck all of you!!
Sincerely,
Debbie Downer....LOL!
Just teasing!
Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

But I still don't think it's pointless to submit. Do You?

I was once at a Songwriting Symposium here (Victoria, on Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada, 50 miles north of Seattle), and a still-drunk music executive said we would get no where in the music industry unless we moved back east to Toronto, CA... but not to bother since there were no opportunities for anyone new anyhow (I think he meant, 'you hicks don't have nothing to offer no how.')

Well, this year I got a couple deals from folks in California, USA... if you network the right way, and have the right stuff, you can do it. With the internet we have a global economy & I can get on the computer and talk to my co-writer in NY state & we can get the guitars out and throw ideas back and forth. I can record a raw vocal track and send it to a producer in the wink of an eye. Times are changing.

I think people like say things like "you can't get a country cut unless you move to Nashville" because they're guarding the gates. Truth is, 99% of the people in Nashville can't get a cut either.

just my 2 cents... for whatever it's worth

It doesn't hurt to keep trying. I haven't given up. Neithor did Jason Blume when he lived in someone's else small quarters eating catfood, dreaming of a McDonalds Happy Meal and now he has sold his songs on Gold albums etc....I guess he never gave up. So we shouldn't eithor.


Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

You might be able to get a cut if you don't live in Nashville. You also might be able to get a cut if you don't know anyone in Nashville.

But...
I was looking at a list of songs that made Country radio recently. They went back a couple years. Where I could I looked up the writers. Well guess what....
The writer either lived in Nashville or a town close to Nashville or the co-writer lived in Nashville or a town close to Nashville. If they didn't they already had cuts or had done songs that made the charts years ago. Meaning they already had their foot in the door.
It is true that 99% of the songwriters in Nashville don't get cuts either. But that is cuts by a major artist. There are thousands of songs done that never make the radio or never make the charts. That does not mean you cannot get a cut and make money. If you could get a cut by an Indie that sold 50,000 CD's how would you feel about that. How about 10,000.
50,000 at $09.1 cents is $4550.00
A few of those a year would be nice. I could buy a nice Taylor for that.

So why does living in Nashville make a difference....The folks that run the business and decide which songs get cut are in Nashville. They have a couple hundred thousand songwriters trying to get a spot on a couple hundred CD's per year, If that.
Look at the odds. Be realistic folks. It's like standing in line at the ford factory with a thousand other people trying to get a job where there are ten job openings.
Wake UP.
If you cannot live in Nashville then work with someone who does.
Of course if you are trying to break into the New York or LA music scene then do the same there.

Do you offer your songs for licensing. You should make a point everywhere you post your songs that they are available for licensing.

But quit whining because you can't get a break...Make your own breaks or do something else.


EDIT

Walt Aldridge told us he was just like everyone else. He had shopped I loved Her First to every label and publisher in Nashville. It was turned down by every one. He did it on his own with an unknown band from Muscle Shoals, Al.
They spent $800.00 to record the song.
I don't know how he got it on the radio though.

Rule #1: Do not quit your day job.

And why is this so?

1.) Those "inside" writers probably took a long time and a lot of hard work to find out who the "right people to know" are. In other words, they have probably paid their dues.

2.) The "inside" songs are just as good as the "outside" songs. If you had a choice of a good song from someone you knew and trusted versus a good song from an outsider -- who would you choose? The outsider's song would have to be much better than any insider's songs to have a chance.

3.) Probably the artists (managers, producers, agents, publishers) who are cutting the songs probably owe a lot of favors and cutting inside songs probably pays back some of those debts.

I really don't know -- I am just guessing.

Kevin

Well Kevin, you just stroke a MAJOR chord with me. How dare you infer that those in Nashville have paid their dues more than those of us who don't live in Nashville. There are thousands of singer/songwriter/musicicans all around this country playing in clubs, venues, all over the place who have been playing and writing since they were kids. Who says they haven't paid their dues???? They sure as heck have. And countless trips to Nashville to visit and network. I would be rich if I saved up all the money I have invested in my demo's, CD's of my own music, trips to Nashville and all over the country to network and attend songwriting events. It is well over 100k!! Believe me. So don't even infer that those of us not in Nashville have NOT paid our dues!! No offense brother, but you are guessing.

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

It's plain and simple, if your best song sucks than all of your songs suck, you can spend as much money as you want

Tamera I think you misunderstood Kevin, you can play as many venues as you possibly can but you won't find the "right" people there
You may have paid your dues, but that still is not good enough

Wow Airun, you are really something. I am not sure if I want to even comment after you. Let me get this straight, are you saying my songs suck?? Hmmmmm lets hear your songs!! Come on!!! Bring em on!! Let's hear what you have got! As far as I know I have never heard anything but HOT air coming down from you up there in Canada.

You seem to have misunderstood this whole conversation. Get your vision checked! Apparently you can't read.

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

Tammy,
the Leafs haven't won a cup since 1967 and it has put him in a terrible state, don't let it bring you down, in fact don't let anyone bring you down, you are a singer/songwriter and don't apologize to anyone for your music, I've heard it, all you need, like alot of us,is a break, and it apparently ain't comin' from Airun. Write, pitch, network, over and over and over, that's how we get cuts, giving up is not an option.
signed by another writer paying their dues outside of Nashville, Moker

I stayed outta this long enough!

airun, you just crossed the line on this one; what have you done of late? hmmmmmmm. what hits have ya snagged?


markus

oh, yeah. to say Tammy's songs suck? have you heard them? eh?


markus

Moker and Markus, Thank you so much for coming to my defense.:) I wasn't trying to cause trouble here. Just standing up for all us unsigned artists. We all work so hard day in and day out to share our songs and be heard. I just can't stand by and let someone slam me such as Airun seems to enjoy doing. We have yet to see He/She come forward and let us hear their songs.
I am still waiting........

Thanks again you guys!

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

my 2 cents....I don't have history with Airun so I'm really not gonna say much about that....

But, from my side of the table I do believe it is easier to get a major cut if you are in Nashville, writing with an artist or have made friends with a ton of label heads....Nashville has to trust you...My gut says its not right...but it is what it is....

at 4pm when the label is looking for that last song....they call around/ask around and we are not there! If you don't have a track record why should they spend there resources on you...

which begs the question how do you get a track record?....
I don't know.

I do believe as a writer you are better off finding a mentor in the genre you wish to crack open....I have done that....has my music gotten heard, not really, but I see how some of the business is done. I see how people have a number #1 hit on the country singles chart and they are working their a@# off for 13 years writing with the "right" people(out night after night)putting family on hold and they have indie cuts or album cuts but not another single....It is very competitive...some days I'm not sure why I even entertain the idea of writing commercially but I still do!

so I guess in summation all of the above applies, Bob, I think you have to have many irons in the fire...not one song for Nashville but many songs...if they like the first one you better have another one.

Tammy, we are all paying our dues one way or another...each of our roads is different...

Kevin you are probably more on then you think.....

I think MIke gives really great feedback, Does anybody know the artists details, true details not just the publicity stuff. thats just for starters....that kind of info is hard to get sitting in PA.

Brian makes an excellent point about markets outside of Nashville. Nashville isn't the end of the ride it's just a jump off point!

ok...Ive rambled enough....this thread has been awesome...alot of good feedback and opinions...This shouldn't be taken personal...

Tammy
According to Airun everyone on JPF writes songs that suck so I wouldn't let it bother you.

Moker is right. Keep working it and never give up. Hell, I just spent 130 K on a house in Nashville.
I been thinking about opening it up for time share, LOL. Got to pay for it somehow.
Gonna have a heck of a party there next August.

Personally I think I have written a couple of songs that would make great radio singles for a few Major stars. Will they ever see radio, who knows? Maybe if I can get the right person to hear it, at the right time, it might have a chance.

I just watched Toby Kieth talking about his new single Love Me If You Can. The song was written by Craig Wiseman. It is a decent song but I don't think it is a great song. Many writers here could have penned it.

Having said that I will admit, most of the songs written and posted on the forums here are just a waste of ink.
They might follow the formulas, meet all the requirements, but they lack the qualities that make a great song. You can't formulate that, there is no rhyme scheme magic or VCVCBC, AABA, etc., that will do that. A song that is great has a magic that is all its own. It has a soul and speaks to you. Moves you, makes you feel good inside even when it is a sad song. It has an effect on you.
A great song flows with a quality like fine silk in its words and lines. Every line works.
There are few here written like that.

To say that someone has paid their dues or hasn't paid their dues is Bullshit. Who decides how much the dues will be. One year, Two years, three? 50 gigs, a hundred? It's Bullshit.
If you write good songs and can get them into the right hands that should be all that is needed. But write good songs you must.

Now getting those songs into the right hands? Well now that is another story all together. That is where the dues come in. It may take a lot of work to make that happen. Lots of visits to the Bluebird, Lots of visits to NSAI, and all the other places where the magic is done. Make no mistake about it, if you cannot figure out a way to get your songs in front of the right people it ain't gonna matter how good they are. They will NEVER see the light of day.

Do you think you are good enough. Do you think you have written songs that can get a cut.
If so then here is what you do to prove it.
Go audition at the Bluebird in Nashville. You may not make it the first few tries. But don't give up. Keep trying. If you can't get a shot on stage at the Bluebird then I'd say you need to keep working it. Now if you are not a performer then you need to team up with someone who can do the audition, with your songs.

I am learning guitar. I am practicing and playing and writing. I plan to try out for the Bluebird. It is going to take all the courage I can muster and I won't try until I think I can do it. But I am going to do it. I will also need a couple of great songs.
Have I already written them, I don't know. We will just have to see.

Hi Bill! Funny you should mention the Bluebird in Nashville. I have played there. I drove all the way from Iowa with my keyboard waited in line and got on as the last performer in the evening. You bet! I drive across the country just to have a shot at it. Someone dared me! And I DID IT!! It was scary as heck, but totally worth it. I have pictures of it on my myspace. Just one of those things I had to say I did it once! LOL
P.S. You need to just get up there and go for it! The night I played there were people who had driven from all over the country to sing just to say they did it! Don't be afraid!!

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

Slow down, folks. Maybe I should not try to defend Airun, but it seems to me that he was making a general comment--not aimed at anyone in particular. As such his comment is 100% accurate. This comment is not only accurate, but it is important because a sad fact of this business is that there are a lot of nice folks who suck but don't know it, but do a lot of griping about how they are not getting a fair shot. I believe--perhaps erroneously--that Airum was addressing that fact.

Tamera, it certainly sounds like you have paid your dues, but you must ask yourself if you have paid those dues to the right club. I am like you in that I live away from Nashville but I have spent a lot of effort, time, and money "paying dues." But you and I--and thouseands of others--have to understand that we are competing against folks who are just as talented, just as committed, just as passionate, but who live in Nashville and do EVERY DAY what we are only able to do once in a while. Ask yourself who is improving quicker, me or some guys just like me in Nashville who write EVERY day with other writers, and who go to open mics every night, and who network every day? It's obvious.

No...don't you dare quit. You might make it. We might make it. But if we don't, it is not because there is a conspiracy to keep us out. It will be because we lost out to someone who wanted it more, and made greater sacrifices, and who used fewer excuses. We do not have to apologize for not living in Nashville, and we do not have to apologize for not giving up our lives and families to go for the brass ring. But we DO have to be realistic about how the world works. Best of luck to you. See you at the CMA's.

Get the attention of a working publisher in Nashville who is actively pitching to the industry. If you cannot get the attention of a Nashville publisher, it is highly likely that you have not yet written a "cut-worthy country song."

Also, writing one good song is probably not going to impress anyone in the industry. Publishers want to invest in people who they feel can sit down every day and write commercially viable songs. That's what pros do, and the industry is interested in pros.

Best of luck to you.

You may have inferred that I said "folks outside Nashville" have not paid their dues but I don't think I implied that. There are probably thousands of folks in Nashville who have "paid their dues" -- and they ain't getting cuts either. It just seems to me that by saying it is only "Who You Know", you are trying to invalidate the hard work, effort and skill of those insiders who have obtained cuts (and at some time most, if not all, of those insiders were once outsiders).

I have only been writing songs for almost a year now and do I think that I have any great songs yet -- probably not, but if George Jones recorded "Walkin' Never Bothered Me", then I would be involved in a hit. Which brings me to point #4 that I left off -- LUCK. I am afraid that luck, being in the right place at the right time, and recognizing opportunities will always play a part.

I know you have talent and drive and from what you have written maybe you have paid your dues -- but casting yourself in the role of a victim probably won't help your chances of getting a big cut.

Kevin

The last time I looked at a map Nashville was not the centre of the world. Nor is it the centre of the music industry there are many other genres. There are other towns, cities countries and continents. Or are folk too narrow minded and insular to see. If you let one small town dictate what is the accepted standard and style the music industry will stagnate and die. Or are there just too many wannabe country writers on this forum. Nashville is the last place I would pitch any of my songs.
The problem with the music business is age old. It is not what you know but WHO. I have listened to a lot of the songs posted on JPF and they cover all the bases the good the bad and the ugly. There are many many songs that are as good if not better than what is in the charts. Talent and having a great song and demo is the easiest part. The almost impossible task is SUCCESSFULLY pitching, knowing the right folk, being in the right place at the right time and most important a great big slice of luck to get your song in the charts. So why narrow down your options by committing to only one genre and place to pitch.

Oh, the Nashville thing again......sigh.

Getting "cuts" is what songwriters did 20, 30 , 40 years ago. The world doesn't work in that fashion any more.

Big Jim hit the nail on the head. It's who you know, not what you know. Songwriting has nothing to do with it. If your intent is to write songs to get cuts from the major talent pool, and you don't know anyone even remotely close to the talent pool, I'd go by Lotto tickets.

They provide a far better return.

cheers, niteshift

Those outside of Nashville who aren't signed to a particular publisher don't forget about the independant songplugger. We have an excellent one who is there everyday and knows where the guys have lunch and play golf and when they're on the road and when they're goin' in to record. We have weekly conference calls, talk about upcoming pitch opps, individual artists market trends, the type of material those artists are seeking, the fine tuning of strong writes before demo, who we are going to pitch them to after demo and who would be the right singer to represent what the lyrics and music combine to do for the most marketable demo. Do we have a major cut yet, no, but in the first three months we have pitched to George Strait, Tim McGraw, Faith Hill, and a couple of dozen more names you would recognize, places I can't just call or walk into myself (yet). Am I sitting in Jacksonville Florida paying my dues, hell yes, with my eyes wide open fully aware of who my competition is and ready to compete on their level. In addition to the plugger my co-writers and I actively pitch ourselves via rowfax, Taxi, NSAI, songU, and our own publisher and artist contacts. Hell yes it's hard, but it's something I've chosen to pursue and I wouldn't sell myself short by not making the informed, energetic, positive effort that I am making. It is just a matter of time, something I say to myself about 20 times a week. Good luck everyone, write great songs and work 'em. I will make a slight apology for not having a more global view on this, but I am a rather focused individual that, while I enjoy playing and write rock, blues, bluegrass, world, and fusion music, I am totally honed in on the country market right now to give myself my best shot at achieving what I consider success. Moker

ahhhh good advice....just quit... because the world don't work that way any more, according to Nightshift.

Well why don't you folks that believe Nashville doesn't count for much enlighten the rest of us. Where else can a songwriter pitch their songs.
Now remember most of these folks live in the USA. Not Europe, Not Australia, Not Japan, So if they don't pitch in Nashville where do they pitch? If there are places in Australia that we can pitch our songs would you post a list please?
Taxi? along with a zillion other show tune wannabees. LA, maybe you can tell us what Publishers are available in LA? What about New York? Any Publishers there accepting submissions?
Please, enlighten us.
Next time I am in Nashville and I run into a person from another country I will ask them.
Oh! wait. I already did that. They said there weren't really any opportunities in Australia.

Oh Big Jim

Where are you pitching? Have you had any luck?

That's some great info there, Moker. I can see that you are doing everything you can and at least you are getting some pitches in. That's fantastic!

Kevin

Moker is right
You can use an independent songplugger.
But, I don't think very many do it for free. The last one I talked to wanted a pretty hefty fee. About $2500.00 But was VERY selective about the songs he represented.
Taxi is what? $300
Nsai is what? $300
Song U is what $300 or so? Plus you pay for crits?

That puts me at about $3500 not counting the cost of demos and other expenses.
Not sure how many folks can afford it.

I wonder if there is a list of independent Song Pluggers somewhere and their track record?

I got a list from ASCAP Nashville, called up my rep there and had them e-mail or fax it to me. I'm sure BMI could do the same. Who and what these pluggers know is what you pay for. It's free information if you have it yourself, I don't, so if I wanna play I have to pay. My main co-writer found and hired the plugger we use to represent our catalog. Reserarch the individual well and get to know them a little first, ask around see who knows them , what their track record is. It ain't cheap. MJ

eh I never said anyones songs suck, in fact Tamera I haven't even heard any of your songs, I said if someones best song sucks then there's a good chance they all suck (and then they spend thousands of dollars on demos, nashville visits, houses, when they don't stand a chance), was that toward you, no

The bottom lines were to you, if the top was addressed to you I would have said Tamera

work hard , read hit lyrics good and bad and learn, do a lot of rewrites and don't just assume its done or else it'll probably suck

No hard feelings towards any of you

I will however check out your songs Tamera to decide for myself

by the way thanks truman for getting my point

Bill, yes that is correct, no artist wants your songs, or mine, or anyone elses for that matter.

When the talent started writing and performing their own material in a big way, lets say 50 years ago ,they soon realised that their income more than doubled.

When a label can get a top notch act that can sing, has great stage presence, can dance, and write and perform their own material, why should they bother bringing in outside writers ?

There are thousands of such acts that can do it all, and it is these acts that are making it up the entertainment ladder.

I'm not saying give up, I'm simply stating that the "write and pitch" approach is a very very small part of the overall entertainment industry in the modern world.

cheers, niteshift

Tammy I am not saying this just to give you hope (although I do hope good things for you). I am a fan of your music. I have visited your site on more than one occasion and listened and you can count me as a fan!! I find myself singing your melody "Dreams do come true, I took a star from the sky and named it after you....." very often. Should/could that song be on radio or in a Disney film, you better believe it! Should Ande's "Eventually" be on the radio, yes of course. So it either means one of two things...1. in time both will be or 2. they won't be because individuals in the business w/ears out there are asleep at the wheel or the right one hasn't heard it yet. Be patient.

Yes, it feels like vindication, recognition, or like a an official stamp of approval when our songs are published, cut and released, we all have that dream and so we should. But in reality those two songs I mentioned are worthy right now today. What's the hold-up, good question!

I write because I love to write and I dream because I can.

Best,
Lynn

....I write because I love to write and I dream because I can....

Well said ! , and that's were success will lie.

cheers, niteshift

Hey Bill just in case you have forgotten I am from Scotland. Different continent, different country, different climate, different music and different outlook. There is not such a great demand for country music here as there is in the States. Feel free to pitch your stuff here. It would probably be as fruitful as me pitching my classic style rock and blues to Nashville.

Artists in Nashville most definitely want pro songwriters' songs. Know how many artists in this week's Country top ten wrote the songs by themselves? How many had cowriters? How many songs weren't written at all by the artists? You dont know? I do, and I'm not telling. Do your own homework. Don't believe me? I don't care More people who think it's impossible here, or not worth it, makes more room. So, come to think of it, yeah...that's right...I was wrong up there...the artists here don't want your songs. Don't bother folks. No need pitching here, just move along

Hi Bob, I have only just got started, and I am 44, I won't give up because, I was very proud of my first achievement "Don't Push My Button, I can't wait to use here the lyrics. My song was written for you guys, not Nashville. But only a week ago I sent my song over to the creative manager at Nashville, cos I don't know anything about the industry at all, and I dont know enough about computers. Do I give up now? Is their any hope for my song? I just wan't some one to help me get it recorded professionally so that you guys can here it, and for all my friends, collegues that come into the club where I work as they are driving me nuts. "I want a copy" and yes the nasty ones as well, "I don't like country music" all I can say is, this has been one of the most enjoyable experiences for me, because out of all the pain that I have been through, something good has come out of it. My doctor kept saying to me Michele, all that anger inside, do something constructive with it. My song is about helping others, and to those who hurt me so badly, thankyou.

It is a fantastic way to communicate with others, thanks everyone for making me smile. Love it. Have fun with it.

Merry Christmas

Michele
Keep writing and singing, as I love reading all your lyrics, can't wait until I get my computer set up properly so I can listen to your songs

I live outside the USA, let alone Nashville, I live on the outskirts of Canada, so I don't stand much of a chance. But still I keep trying. In the past month I've had request for seven songs, no eight songs, to be sent to them. They may never be recorded, but they heard them on the net and liked them and asked me to send by CD or by email, so I did or will do. Two went to England, one to Texas, four will be going to California, and one to be emailed, not sure of location. One, I know will not be recorded, he wants to sing it in church, I want it heard by whomever will be there that day, two more may never be recorded commercially, but you never know, the rest will be recorded, or at least I hope so, as an artist demo or commercial indie release. These may never earn me any real money but you never know where these songs might be heard and by whom, and you never know which indie artist will be the next major. These songs are doing me no good sitting at home, so send them out to try their wings.

I think if I was in Nashville, I'd have a better chance of getting cuts, but we all can't live in Nashville. My roots are too deep here to leave at this stage of my life. Keep plugging away and trust in God, things will be as they should be. Patients is a virtue.

I get a Tip sheet about every 2 weeks. Besides the small listings there are about 6 or so listings for Major Artists with who the producer is. As a rule you can't submit to these listings because if you do they will just refuse them and send them back.

I had some songs that I thought would work for some on the Artists so I called for permission to send in some songs. I got permission from 2 of 3 Labels to send in songs so I sent them.

To be sure I have no doubt that a lot of cuts are because the Producer or Artist knew someone and they got a cut. But that is part of the game.

I did manage to "Back Door" songs to the Label that wouldn't give me permission to submit because the producer was the same for one of the Artists on that label. And I asked that producer to give a song to another producer at that label. It may not happen but I am guessing that it will. What do I have to lose? I haven't gave up yet!

Jim,

Then you do cover songs that could be on today's country charts. That Bon Jovi thing talks about cowboys and "wanted dead or alive," man, where are the kilts and bagpipes?

Mike,

That's the point, they're pro songwriters, who are pro musicians, who are mixing with other professional industry people in their field.

You can't tell me that those writers who are getting the cuts are unknown. They've been doing it for a long time, and have built up solid working relationships over many decades.

Evey town has it's own way of doing business, I just little tired of hearing that Nashville is the centre of the songwriting universe.

It aint', Antarctica is !

cheers, niteshift

Nite,

You're right, now y'all just don't bother about Nashville, we don't cut no songs here except by pro writers.

Lynn and others thank you for the nice comments! I do appreciate that.

Kevin, I never cast myself in the role of a victim. I am simply expressing my thoughts on the biz. I never asked anyone to hand me anything. I will get to wherever I am going on my own merit. Sheer hard WORK a four letter word.

As far as Nashville, it is only one hub in the big picture of all the music hubs. Like Brian has said, it is kind of the mecca for country and Christian music. That is where I pitch those styles. I have used Taxi for pop and instrumental. But the best thing I ever did happened this year. I joined SONGU and got myself a songwriting coach and for 10 bucks a song (after the membership fee) I can get my songs critqued before I spend the money on a demo. Then it's good to go and then I pitch the heck out of the song.

So then when do you think or know your song is done being written or rewritten??? Another great question that I have asked a million people it seems. When people seem to like it and it flows. Who created all these forms anyway?? We have to have some kind of form for radio play anyway. If you are writing commercial you have to accept the fact that you have a time limit and a form that the listener likes to hear. Something memorable with a hook. So here is what I finally figured out and I also heard this from Jason Blume. If you are taking your song to alot of different coaches and industry people and they all say something different about certain parts of your song, such as one person would have written a different line in one of your verses and the other coach thought it was great! Then it's a matter of opinion. Just call it done and cut it!! But if 3 people or so all say, this area of your song is weak, or that line doesn't work, then you may want to consider a rewrite.
Otherwise, we all could keep rewriting a song for years. I ain't gonna do that people. I want to simply enjoy the song and let it flow. I know someone like that and it drives me insane how long they have picked at their song. Then I start disliking the song. UGH!

This is my 2 cents for the day! Just keep writing. Enjoy it! Nashville is NOT the only place I want to send my music. IT is only one of many places. Look how small that place is in the whole world picture. Write stuff other than country and you will see. Ya gotta seek out other places.

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

Since no one here is talking face to face misunderstandings are sure to happen so we must be careful how we use terminology and be careful with the words that we use. Using the word "suck" or "sucks" automatically sets off a negative reaction and people go on the defensive and that incites resentment on the person who said it weather at someone else or in general. Would you use that word while critiquing someones lyric or MP3? I don't think so, at least I have never seen it used here yet. It is very easy to insult someone with text and not even realize it. I'm not saying that is what happened here because I can't tell just by reading. We are dependent here on others for opinions of our individual writings and I don't believe that the word "sucks" belongs in a serious thread where members are interacting about their goals. Save it for a more lighthearted subject. Ben

Oh yeah yeah . . . I know you guys have a prolific output, with all sorts of music and very fine studios too, but the argument was about getting cuts on major labels.

I'm sure it does happen, but it's still the same low odds as anywhere else on the planet.

You gotta do it because you have something to say, or something to express. If it's been done for so called fame and glory, then I reckon it's a case of the dog chasing it's own tail.

cheers, niteshift

Tammy,

Good info. Yes, if several people say the same thing, you might want to make a change. I'd add, though, if they say the same thing independantly. Songwriting forums can take on a "mob" menality. If one of the dominant personalities on the forum makes a crit, others can, and often do, follow suit.

And, yes, Nashville is certainly not the only place to pitch. It's the hub for major label Country music and a hub for much (not all) Christian and Bluegrass music. I wouldn't recommend, for example, Reggae writers pitching here. Personally, I've gotten cuts in Chicago, New Orleans, New York, and Cologne, Germany as well as here.

Good songwriting, by the way. My faves are "Follow Your Dreams" and especially "Afterthought" the chords in the chorus and the bridge are cool. Very well arranged and produced. Dry vocal in the breakdown and everything, very "now" with a smart ending.

All the Best,
Mike

Nite,

You said you get tired of hearing that Nashville is the centre of the songwriting universe. So, you hear that a lot?

Now you got me thinkin' Nite

lets see...

Keith Urban....hmmmm I think he might have come from someplace else...maybe Australia.

Sarah Buxton....From a little town in Kansas of all places.
She moved to Nashville. I wonder why? She does Pop.
She is all of 26 years old. Probably a very well established Pro country songwriter.

Back to Keith Urban. He did a song called Stupid Boy. You ever heard of it.
Well Sarah Buxton wrote it and recorded it before Keith did. Not sure if he actually was involved in the co write but I think he is listed.
In 1992, he moved to Nashville, Tennessee, where he found work as a guitarist for Brooks & Dunn and can be seen backing Alan Jackson in his music video for "Mercury Blues".
I wonder why he didn't stay in Australia?


Co writers on Stupid Boy
Deanna Bryant from Texas
David Berg from Oregon lives in Nashville.

Just an example but I think it's a pretty good one.

There are two huge myths that seem to be accepted as absolute truths by a lot of Nashville-centric writers.

Myth #1: The odds are stacked against you.

Truth: Odds have nothing to do with it. Odds figure into winning the lottery or winning at the track. In songwriting odds don't matter. If you go into you room tonight and emerge tomorrow morning with the next "He Stopped Loving Her Today" it will get cut (unless you are completly inept at prestenting your songs to the market). If you write songs that are not very good, you will NEVER get a cut. EVER. It has nothing to do with odds. It has to do with the product. I have heard people say that the odds are 1000 to 1 against a college football player ever playing in the NFL. Well, that might be the proper ratio, but it has nothing to do with odds. What are the "odds" that the next Heisman Trophy winner will play in the NFL? 100%. What are the "odds" that the third string special teams guy at Furman will play in the NFL? 0%. See?

Myth #2: The doors are closed in Nashville. It is impossible to get your songs heard by people in the industry?

Just because YOU don't know how to do it, does not mean it is impossible. If you do not have enough imagination to figure out how to get your songs heard, than how can you possibly expect to have enough imagination to write compelling songs? Hear this: it is not hard to play your songs for people in Nashville. But I am going to be like Mr. Dunbar; I'm not going to tell you how to do it. Figure it out for yourself. That is part of the process.

Well,
I do know how to prestenting my songs to the industry. It just takes a bigger tent.

Gee, you know how to get songs to people that won't take un- soliciated material?

Um, had any cuts from getting those songs past "Locked" doors?