JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Why don't Lyricists learn an Instrument?

These Guys sussed it Dan. Its four chords you need... have a laugh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I

God Bless Roy and Helen

I think I won´t make new friends

There are many pure lyrics writers out there who don´t know much about music or songs (unfortunaltely). Many of them think that they write "songs" when they write lyrics and that contributing the music to the tune is "just playing". But the "creative process" is writing lyrics and writing music. Then starts the hard work: Producing it. Most ofthe times it ends like this: The lyrics writer writes the lyrics, the composer composes the music - AND has to take care for the production (playing all instruments, singing, producing, arranging). IN the end they say: It´s a 50/50 collab. Writing a lyric can be done in 10 minutes. To produce a song (playing, singing, mixing, editing, mastering) I need a week. That´s not 50/50

I think all serious lyrics writers can play an instrument. I see myself as a composer, but I know how to write lyrics. So I think the lyrics writer can take the affort and learn an instrument . You learn so much more about structrue, melodies and so on, when you can do this, don´t you?

I stoped working with lyrics-only writers because the work-loud was never equal. Right now I am just working with other songwriters (songwriter=music and lyrics) or singers who can write lyrics. So we are equal

That´s good. So ladies come on, get yourself a guitar and rock on

Roy, that video's a riot!

Donna

doesn't music and lyric come from an emotion, aren't we all mostly emotional creatures? Seems a silly reaction on a board such as this...

To clarify. I write lyrics and don't play an instrument, it is not for a lack of desire, but for a lack of ability.

Because of collaborations, I can make up my own melodies and have a song.

What is even more amazing is that lyricists come to me and ask me to put melodies to their beautiful works of art and I can't promise them music. I think that proves that there is more to it than what you think there is to making music.


I have also worked with two poems and turned them into beautiful songs. After all, isn't "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" a poem? In choir I sung great poems that were put to music such as "Jabberwocky", "Twas the Night Before Christmas" and "The Road Not Taken". Poems turned to music, poetic lyrics sung to music...isn't it about what you want to say and sing that rides the wave of music to someone's heart?

Music touches our emotions, our hearts and souls and yes, even our brains, but in that moment of swaying to a rhythm, no one cares about anything but the song. I wouldn't over intellectualize the lyric and melody , just give me a good song.

Oh come on Martin. Get real. lol

My quickest Lyrics took 1 month. Many hours on the computer. My longest took 2 years. Some of us don't just knock them out. We work on them just as hard as we can. We sweat buckets to get them right. And just as some composers can knock out music day in day out, others take a long time to finish their work.



We are all equal Martin. Sometime we all create great stuff and other times we all create crap. Don't tell me that every guy who writes lyrics AND plays music is a genius.

But as mentioned earlier in this thread, some lyric writers are MASTERS and some composers ARE masters.

When I write MY lyrics to a song, I spend time finding the right composer/producer/studio. I go through loads who are not up to the mark and many are writer/composers. Doesnt make them great at iether.

I used to be so vain, but now I am perfect... lol

God Bless Roy and Helen.

Colm. It's still just a discussion....

Another jester!

Martin, many lyricists - myself included - spend hours/days/weeks on a lyric to polish it to perfection so that the whole finished package shines. (Heck, Jon Ims, who wrote the famous "She's In Love with the Boy", took months to complete the lyric.
http://www.taxi.com/music-business-...tingandrewritingshesinlovewiththeboy.php)

It's true that many musicians write lyrics. In fact, anyone who's capable of speech or of scribbling words in a language can write a lyric. The question remains: Is it any good?

Donna

I've never looked at a collaboration as a 50/50 split on labor. Sure the end product may be 50/50, but I contribute what I can whether it be more work on my end or not. I don't care how much work I do as long as the song is worth it. The point is to finish the song. If it's successful, it will be done over anyway.

It's not like two guy's sawing a tree where one end has to pick up the slack for the other. Either way, the tree has to go down no matter what it takes.

Also, I don't like getting philosophical and using analogies. I like being simple. Think I'll take a nap now.

@Roy:

Opps, I hope you did not missunderstand me my friend.

I was just saying. A Country or Pop tune needs two things, from a creative point of view. A lyric and the melody/chords. When you give a lyric I can compose the music to it. That´s a 50/50 collaboration. We were equal, everyone of us did the same wordload, we both wrote. You wrote the lyrics, I wrote the music (writing music is a creative work).

But then I (as the composer) have to produce the whole song as well. That means, I have to arrange it, have to play the instruments, have to sing it (or have to look for someone who can sing it), mix it, master it and send it over to you in a sweet and nice mp3 Form, so that everyone can listen to it. Because no one is interessted in reading sharp notes and the lyrics. They want to hear the song.

Then the workload is no longer shared equally because you wrote the lyrics, I wrote the music, I produced the whole song. I hope you see my point, do you? Just imagine I would do this.. let´s say with Tammy. She would write me a lyric, I would write the music. Then we could find an aggreement: “Ok girl, I play the instruments, you sing the song” J. See my point?

And – hey, I just said you CAN write a lyric in 10 minutes. OK, this was not realistic. I wrote some songs (words and music) in 10 minutes. For example – this year I wrote one of my best songs in 10 minutes. A publisher liked it, the song will be released by an English Indie-Label Artist next year. I have some songs I am working on for years.. I know, writing a lyric can be hard work too, when you are playing around with words. But composing the write music to it is also not simple work. Prodeucing a tune is a heck of work and many times it happend that the lyrics writer does not know HOW much work it.

Another reason why lyrics-only writers should learn an instrument is:
Many Lyric writers don´t know how to write a Lyric for an existing tune. Sometimes I have a melody, produce the track and need lyrics for it. Or I have a German song and need English lyrics for this. Many don´t know how to count sylbs and follow a given structure. This is something you learn when you are a bit into music.

Hope you see my point? J

Peace

@Donna: Yeah I knowI write lyrics in German, I know how much work it is or can be


p.s.: Looks like everyone around here has good arrguments

Fair dinkum as they say down under Martin, but playing the instruments, producing, arranging, engineering, mastering etc are typically done for a fee for hire basis...so they are not strictly collaborating, and they do not typically own pieces of the final song.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah Mark?! (How ya doin"?)!
Take a look at this!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_first_rays/4062161323/

And this!:
http://johnlennonbeatles.com/2009/12/john-plays-ringos-drums/

And this quote: "John Lennon was probably the weakest drummer, (of The Beatles), but he played congas and other percussion instruments well". Hmmmm,"Lennon, More Than A Guitar Player"! Ha!

And, on "Back In The USSR, all three non regular drumming Beatles played a section of drums. Here's the breakdown:

Paul McCartney: vocals, backing vocals, bass, piano, lead guitar, drums, handclaps, percussion

John Lennon: backing vocals, lead guitar, 6-string bass, drums, handclaps, percussion

George Harrison: backing vocals, lead guitar, bass, drums, handclaps, percussion

Lennon, in addition to drums, played bass! As did Harrison on that track. So, Lennon was not into blocking everything else out from doing mainly lyrics, rhythm guitar, lead guitar and singing. Knowing a bit of everything of course can lead to being creatively stimulated. It's all related. And like having a cowriter helping with writing, it gives another insight to one's own ideas about songs.

I would not have written some of my songs that I love had I not played drums or guitar in addition to piano. In fact, being into orchestration too, allowed me to envision some songs with that in there. Led to a score that ASCAP deemed one of the 13 best of all indie scores for 1999, as did Sony Pictures. Branching out and learning and even trying what others do, if a passion to do so, can be "personally fulfilling". That's the secret to life!

John

@Johnny: If I am not mistaken, JOhn Lennon played the drums on Obladi-Oblada.

@John Voorpostel: I always produce the Songs I write in semi-professional quality. Sometimes a friend is helping me out . I would never pay to let someone else do this. I know many other composers/producers, they help me I help them Thát´s fun.

OK, when I rethink my arguments... it´s not that important that the lyricist can play an instrument. But it would be cool to find a girl who can write lyrics and sing . I haven´t found such a girl until now

Yep the above is true Martin.




I do see and understand your point of view Martin. Yes you do extra work, in that sense, but its because you have chosen to become THE PRODUCER of the finished demo.

Some of us get a guitar/vocal melody from the composer, then if we agree (lyric writer and melody writer) we send it to have a demo made and we share the costs.

Often/ in most cases the composer will want to do the production himself. If he has the means and skills to do it, then that is fine. But it is his/her choice.

But I do understand what you mean and don't disagree with your POV.

Tammy isnt a good choice as she actually sings the lyrics and creates the most winderful melodys that way, without music. So you would already have that bit done.

Some musicians/composers with studios actually WANT TO WORK with great lyric writers. (never happened to me yet) lol.

Lets forget the 10 minute write a song thing.. you explained that well.

I am so pleased that you have a deal and I really mean that.
Congratulations from me and I am sure from all JPF members.




That is a whole different subject Martin lol.



Of course thats true Martin and at times I am sure it's a struggle.

But I am sure that some writers write in a way where you the composer can instantly form a melody.

These are the lyric only writers that you may enjoy working with.

There are good and bad in both.

I do enjoy these discussions. No malice intended from me at any time.

God Bless Roy and Helen

I do not understand what you mean by advantage.....The advantage would be that if a lyricist has a better understanding of music theory etc then he would write better lyrics that would meter and fit music easier. That would make a demo easier and the end result would probably be a better song. If you mean can I do a better demo than you who cannot play an instrument and have no recording facilities...well of course I can.....
Can I make a demo with just lyrics?....of course providing they meter and fit a pattern.
Can I make a silk purse from a sows ear?...well no but I can make it as good as I can. Depends on the quality of the sows ear.
I have no idea where your twin brother fits into all of this but if he sent me anything I would still do the best job I could.
To help answer your questions send me some words with or without a rough melody and I will demo it for you....no charge.
You will see how I work and how I keep you informed of progress and ask you about suggested changes or any tweaks needed along the way. All I ask is a 50/50 split if it ever makes any money. I would prefer an upbeat song but can handle ballads....just been doing a lot of ballads lately and I crave for something faster to get my teeth into.

Polly writes great lyrics and sings wonderfully.

Well, maybe after I've had a few of those singing lessons I'm planning in 2011.

Donna

Who is Polly? (wasn´t that a film title?)

Re the producer thing well I touched on this in a previous thread...again I got knocked for six....for daring to say that recording and producing a demo was extra work over and above the 50/50 of just writing a simple melody or lyric for a song and should be compensated in some way. I was just stating for those who may not know that lyrics can be written in a few minutes... a melody can be composed in a short time but recordiing and producing the song to a decent standard can take many many hours of hard work in a studio that needs lots of expensive equipment.

@BIG JIM MERRILEES: You are right.

You are right. You need the equipment, you have to learn the song and the lyrics, you need time to arrange the song, to learn how to play this, record this stuff. And – believe it or not – for the song I am working on right now, I need two days to record the melody and three hours for the vocal takes. Now I am sitting on the computer for three days just to edit, to engeneer and to mix this tun. My friend Robert says, he spend around 50 working hours just for mixing the song. Isn´t that crazy?

To record on a semi-professional base you need around 3000 Bucks (Euros not Dollar).

Sure, the other way that was suggestion is an option. Lyricist writes the Lyrics, Composer compses the music. Make a rough demo, send it to a Producer/Demo Service, pay 200 Bucks (equally shared) and you have your Demo. Juhu, and after that? You post the link somewhere to get a review and they tell you: “You should change something”… no longer possible. You send it to your publisher and he says: “No good enough”. Wasted money. Next one!

Big Jim. as regards the above I fully agree with you and have never had a problem with distingusing from writing the music and doing a full blown demo. Some do have a problem with it though.

My beef is when the composer does a full blown demo as a matter of course when he/she knows its a co-write and then wants to claim he/she has done more and should have more of the song.

Whatever is agreed at the beginning of a co-write is what should be adhered to.

I will answer your other comment in a minute.

God Bless Roy and Helen

She left a comment near the top of this post.

Whatever is agreed at the beginning of a co-write is what should be adhered to.

I agree with Roy.

This is IMO the final word on "collaboration" and the compensation of everyone involved. And everyone involved deserves compensation for their respective contributions if money is (to be) made.

Mistaken maybe, as far as the Engineer's notes:

Paul McCartney: vocals, bass, handclaps
John Lennon: backing vocals, piano, handclaps
George Harrison: backing vocals, acoustic guitar, handclaps
Ringo Starr: drums, bongos, percussion, handclaps
Uncredited: three saxophones

But like in my other post, Lennon did play drums on "Back In The USSR", along with Paul and George. That's why there are different feels and tempo playing of the drums throughout that song. I was glad to read years ago that is wasn't Ringo. As I thought he must have been having some of what Lennon took in those days!

I know Big Jim. Sometimes I waffle on. Lol

My twin was an imaginary friend for an imaginary situation. A what if.



Well Jim I have to say that is a real fine offer you have made.
I have said In posts that for me one of the most important things (rightly or wrongly) is to match the voice to the song.

I know that you can produce great finished demos in your studio and I also know that you have a voice that I love.

So I will take you up on that. Thanks again.

Give me a very little while to go through my lyrics and I will come back to you.

No melody though. AND I KNOW that you will not dissapoint me.



Sure Jim the 50/50 is always fine with me.

I always let the person doing the demo run with it.Suggestions and tweeks are always welcome.

If you are ok with that I will probally send you two and let you pick which one you want to do, if either.

You can always say sorry Roy. the lyrics are crap.. lol.

Only jesting.

How does that sound.

ps. can't promise to send up-tempo. You decide if it can be done that way.

Again Big Jim. On that score you are the expert.

God Bless Roy and Helen

A decent lyricist will have a good understanding of rhyme, rhythm and meter. Anything that improves that understanding will help the lyricist hone their skills. The important thing is to learn about rhythm, playing an instrument may help with this but is clearly not essential.

A good lyricist writes words that sing from the page and will therefore have a greater chance of finding a musical collaborator.

Donna

It seems to me from your comments that you exhibit the view that, notwithstanding the fact that musicians have gone to the trouble and time to learn to read, write and play music, that while they might be able to write words they are of course no match for 'professional lyricists?

Us musicians mostly know how to scribble! Some of us are actually literate, believe it or not! Obviously just because 'musicians who write lyrics' have achieved all they have, that doesn't make they 'any good?' when compared to those specialize whether or not they have ever taken the trouble and time the other elements of their trade!

Yeah Donna! Run that one by Bruce Springstein or Randy Newman and see how you get on!

Much more importantly Donna I believe you are blinkering yourself to the simple point I was trying to make. I'll say it again!

Lyrics posted on the Lyrics Forums - without an associated MP3 or some indication of the actual musical beat or rhythm of the intended melody are simply inaccessible to criticism regarding meter! Period!

Most (Not All) of the posters on this thread seem to think (for whatever reason) that I am talking about or in some way demeaning their ability (good or otherwise) to write lyrics. I AM NOT. I never did! I never said that!

In my view Brian should address your comments regarding your belief regarding the questionable ability of skilled and trained musicians to write lyrics with equal detain as he appears to have addressed my innocent suggestion, aimed at including the quality and experience of collaborations between people who like to write words and people that like to write music!

On the Lyric Forums - posters will often suggest 'dramatic improvements to lyrics' without even asking whether the song/melody is played in 4/4, 6/8 or 3/4 time or whatever! But then why should they? What do musicians know, other than the technical fact that you can't sing Chuck Berry's 'Johnny B. Goode' to the Strauss Brothers 'Blue Danube Waltz'. without either changing the melody or changing the meter of the lyrics!

Now maybe Donna that's because (as you believe) the question is irrelevant - the lyrics should stand up on their own! Or maybe it's because they don't understand the relevance of the question?

Again Donna, my suggestion has no bearing on the way 'pure lyricists' produce their work. My issue remains the way pure lyricists comment on and suggest corrections to the 'words of songs already written! That is my ONLY point of contention! My ONLY one!

Here's another way, the third version of the question which concerns this thread!

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LYRICS WRITTEN TO BE PUT TO MUSIC AND LYRICS ALREADY PUT TO MUSIC?

An answer to my earlier response is this:

'I know your name'

and

'I [stroke] - [stroke] - know!'

where the '[stroke]' marks the 2nd and 3rd beat of a (4/4 time) bar have the same beat!

While

'I know your name!' and 'I know!' as 'pure lyrics' have a different meter. 1 -2 -3 -4 as opposed to 1 -2 (1 -2)

My suggested solution to the conclusions of this thread is as follows:

1. MP3 Forum

2. Songs Forum (no MP3's)

- - Specifically for lyrics of whole songs already written - -

3. Lyrics Forums

Thanks to Brian, Donna, Dottie, Roy, Big Jim , Dave , John, Polly, Tom, Stan and everyone who has taken the time to contribute here. It's a critical issue for JPK's and therefore argued about here in the hope of reaching a genuine consensus which suits all members.

Sorry if my words have offended any of you and remember all this is my own perhaps badly informed personal perspective.

Many thanks to you all

Regards from Ireland

ColmT


P.S. Special thanks to Donna for sticking to her guns!

"Ok Girl??" Gee, don't think you would be nicer than that?? Well, no worries if you were doing music to one of MY SONGS Martin, I WOULD BE SINGING IT ANYWAY, so there would be no need to ask....Just sayin...LOL!!!


Roy - Thank you for the kind comments, I appreciate what you have said about me, it has warmed my heart on a cold, cold NH night!!


Colm,
If I remember correctly, you are a "JENNIFER" fan (JINX), she is a lyricist we BOTH work with, she has magical lyrics, you don't seem to mind that she is in the same boat and I am working on our THIRD song together, Jennifer and I have great songs together and neither one of us plays an instrument.

How about giving us some music to "TREASURE" to prove your point to me??? (sorry folks, I'll do anything for music!!!!) LOL!!!

I also need music to "He Loves Her Most"...as close to an Irish song as you can get....what more can you ask for??? LOL!!!

Tammy

I don't think it is a critiacl issue for JPK's and it dosn't need a consensus which suits all members.

We are all individuals Colm and we agree to disagree on many things. This is a meeting place for INDIVIDUALS not groups who have just one view. And that's as it should be.

Big Jim gives me HIS OPINION and I return the favour by giving him mine. Then we move on and he has kindly offered to do me a FREE demo. That is what is at the heart of JPF.

Please don't feel that because you may have an opinion that differs from someone else that they are blighting you or vis-versa. IT's just a differance of opinion. NOTHING ELSE.

Because I dont agree with you or you with me or me with blah blah blah dosnt mean that we can't co-exist.

On lots of things we will agree.

So just enjoy JPF, hopefully make some good contacts and lets all make music somehow.

God Bless Roy and Helen

Tammy: Now I am really motivated to go and learn a musical instrument lol. a Flute me thinks or harp lol

Hi Tam

I have music for 'Treasure' for you and Jinx! Try PM 's for collabs .. rather than posts ... that way you and Jinx can release the masterpiece (LOL) as a surprise!

Tam, I don't feel the need to 'prove' anything to you Jinx or anyone else! I'm Irish! Even difficult perhaps but well meant and talented! So yourself and Jinx should PM.


Thanks Tammy

Lets do it

Regards

C.T.

Roy....oh my...but thanks for the laugh!


Colm...are you serious?? Believe me, I can pm until I'm blue in the face, getting music isn't easy, even on JPF, I have learned how to beg..

you wrote music to Treasure?? really? is it your own melody or to mine?? I'm guessing it isn't to mine or I would have known about it right??

Sorry if I put you on the spot, but there are lots of folks that post in support of me or say they like me, but would never offer to work with me..

Tammy

I feel like Alice in THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS trying to follow this thread. I know we're arguing about something. Just can't figure out what it is or which side I want to be on.

Time for a little Dylan: All the tired horses in the sun/ how'm I supposed to get any ridin' done. hmmm.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x301yx_dylan-all-the-tired-horses-in-the-s_videogames

I think you are too late for that Dan. We are now talking music I think.. lol

Mind you I may start a new thread. haha

Like all families we fight.... make up... and then move on....I know good things are going to come from ALL this fighting.....
Maybe some lyricists will learn more practical things about music through learning an instrument....LOL
certainly I KNOW some collabs and new friendships will be forged.
That is what this site is all about.....meeting new friends.

Sorry Roy and Dan,

I'm not trying to make this go off-topic...my point was that I know Colm admires Jennifer's lyrics, which I think can be poetic and he is working with her...so I am having trouble balancing that with his original post about poetic lyrics and lyricists learning an instrument since Jennifer doesn't play one either (to my knowledge), she is an amazing writer and she wrote "I'll Be On My Way" to music, she supports the idea that she has good skills, yet doesn't play an instrument.

Tammy

I say learn a dang instrument and quit whining about it (ha, ha).

Kevin

I'm doing that now Kevin as we speak....

I've even posted a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ8R6VyP200

Tammy. a post heads where it heads.. don't worry...


Roy

Hi Dan

Yeah me too! And I started it! (LOL)

I'm going to start again regarding my suggestion of three forums.

MP3, Lyrics, and Songs! See how that goes! In other words a new forum form testing song lyrics which have yet to be recorded.

It might seem like a mad solution Dan, but Donna is absolutely correct in one regard, which is that there are more people who can read and write than there are people you can write music.

Now there's a telling Statistic for anyone in the on line business! More non-musicians than musicians.

When those of us that offer resources to redress that balance, it seems to me we are criticized as trouble makers or bullies!

If any member of this site ever desires or needs tuition and support to learn about music they will never find a more willing and talented resource amongst our members. Expert help at all levels, readily available from absolute beginning forward.

Thanks for your comments, but I'm not sure Bob Dylan is the best choice. He wrote his own lyrics didn't he? Maybe collaborations like Elton John and Bernie (some-one or other), Gilbert and Sullivan or some ghost writers serving the industry that has become known as 'X Factor' seems more acceptable around here! LOL!

You're probably more confused now Dan sorry!

Thanks so much for you input Buddy!

Rock on

ColmT

Tam

The answer is simple to your question. I have no problem with artists that write lyrics only! NONE. I have a problem with lyricists that recommend changes to the words and lyrics of songs (already written) before ever asking about the structure of the melody.

It's as though some 'pure lyricists' on the Lyric Forums advise changes to peoples work regardless of discovering the musician/songwriters intention for the piece. That isn't being true to their trade, abilities or skills - that's just ignorance at best and arrogance at worst, yet I'm the one that Brian is slagging off as a being a bully! What a joke, but then the majority rules I guess!

Thanks for the message Tam, (I've PM'd you and Jinxy.)

ColmT

Colm, it's all good! We discuss things like a FAMILY sometimes, and things DO get emotional, but no one is actually aiming that AT YOU...we're all just jumping in and saying what is on our minds.

I started a heated thread a while back about lyricists who don't have a melody, expecting a demo guy to come up with the melody and STILL not giving him cowrite...wow! You'd have thought I proposed to steal someone's baby! Some people agree with me, some don't, but we're all still FAMILY and even those who don't agree with me still support me in my musical endeavors and are friendly and kind to me, and I to them.

One more thing I'd like to say on this particular topic, is that I DO know how to play a little guitar, but I'm still not qualified to put music to my lyrics. I am fortunately able to hear a melody in my head when I write a lyric, and because I can sing, I am able to convey that melody effectively to a capable musician, but to play on my own songs, I'm just not a strong enough guitar player. I guess I'm in the middle, actually, as my voice is my instrument and works just as well when bleeding out a song. The hard part is remembering it since I don't know what notes I'm singing so I just have to rely on memory until I get it to a musician who's actually good enough to figure out the right chords and chart the song.

Okay, everybody relax...WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER!!!

Colm i have read what Brian wrote and I think I know what he is talking about in his referance to bullying and I am sure it's not you or your post. At least I didn't read it that way.

I saw it as a general staement not directed at any one in particular.

So don't take it to heart.

God Bless Roy and Helen.

Kevin!!

Just send me a song to sing and shut up!!! (said in a loving way!!)

Tammy

I totally agree with you there Colm, that is why I don't post my lyrics because if folks don't know my melody, I'm not sure how they can comment, I also don't want them using up good words in their attempt to try and help me, I don't want to use their ideas, I want the thoughts to be my own..so you will get no argument from me on that one, but that is just my personal opinion reguarding my own lyrics...

Tammy

Polly

When I started writing songs I was about fifteen. I know exactly what you mean. Even then I could play - but when I came up with something good, my reaction was always to record it again and again and again and write down the words again and again and again. Even though I had written it - it felt like it had come from either inside or outside me! I recorded it on cassette and wrote it out, because not knowing where it came from, I didn't want to loose it and knew I could learn my own creation later so long as I had a record of it somewhere!

I'm probably mad Polly and worse still thankful for being so! LOL!

The human voice is the forgotten instrument, why every-one assumed I excluded that from this topic is probably my own fault - but i didn't.

Listening to lyrics read on audio (without music) would be a perfectly brilliant compromise to the issue I'm addressing here! Like you say you can hear the music in your head and the way you see it in your mind and how i should be expressed. I've heard your stuff Polly and loved it! You're a singer and performer. But for those that aren't just reading their lyrics aloud on MP3 would add so much more to the experience of their work for listeners and potential collaborators.

Why I'm the big bad wolf for suggesting such things, is something that in all truth, I must say is plainly beyond my comprehension!

As ever Pol, thanks for comments and inputs.

Best Regards

ColmT

Geeezzz, just got on this thread, took me forever to get through the posts. So, I'll just make a few comments, because I can't remember the first posts anymore.
First of all, I disliked the "10 minute to write the lyric" comment. I know others have commented on it, but I spend a ton of time on my lyrics, and want to agree with those who objected to this comment. And to further my point of view, I ask how many songs on any chart these days are instrumentals? Almost zero. Seems like lyrics might be important.
I write both poetry and song lyrics. In song lyrics, you have to know where to put spaces that are not found in poetry. Those spaces are filled with the music production.
So, in my personal case, I write the lyrics, the melody, and the prosody of the song. I have no problem paying a professional demo firm to do the final arrangement, to use professional musicians, and the singer of my choice. Because (not that I've ever had to worry about it) after I've paid their fee, the song belongs to me, period. If I'm ever lucky enough to get a cut, I haven't given away half the song to some producer already.
I play a couple of instruments. Saxaphone -- but playing that and singing at the same time is exceedingly difficult. I play a mediocre guitar, but to play guitar and sing at the same time, to me, is like rubbing my stomach counterclockwise and patting myself on the head at 3/4 time. Not a pretty result.
So, I'm taking up a new instrument. Cowbell. What song couldn't use more cowbell?
Ott

And spurtles Ott, everyone should play the spurtles

OK, I'll bite. What's a spurtle?
Ott

Hi JPF Lyricists, Composers, Musicians and Vocalists:

Creating a song can be done many ways. It can be done by only one person... doing the entire package. It can be done by a team effort where a lyricist and a composer can exchange ideas as equals in order to meld the lyrics and melody into an effective song. Collaborations can be simple or complex and a great deal depends upon the attitudes of the two "partners." A lyric is just a lyric when reviewed on a piece of paper... still, it can be beautiful and even somewhat poetic at times. A melody is probably the most important factor (depending on the style of music) but only by a scant amount. If both don't mesh, it's like the gears of a millstone out of sync.

Regardless of the success of the two "partners" in creating a gorgeous song... it takes another element to achieve commercial success. It must be recorded correctly and vocalized by just the right individual for the song... and then must be "marketed" effectively. Combined, the elements of songwriting are a tall order to fill. Mutual respect is the key... and a willingness to be brutally frank (with appropriate kindness) and to accept constructive criticism without rancor. Working together effectively is difficult but can be done... and done quite well.

Good luck to all of you. Stretch yourselves. If you are a musician, attempt some lyrics... conversely, if you are a lyricist, try to learn at least a simple instrument so you can communicate better with your melody writing partner.

Thanks again, Colm for bringing this up... even though its been discussed here before. Mutual respect is the key... and if you don't find that in a songwriting partnership... split the sheet as quickly and as amicably as you can.

Regards,

Dave

Sorry, I haven't read any replies save the first few. I WAS curious:
It would be interesting to hear a "just lyricist" point of view after learning to play an instrument. Would their attitude towards songwriting change?

There are many people out there who can write both music and words. They are called Songwriters. When they can sing they are called Singer/Songwriters. Many think, a Songwriter is someone who just writes lyrics, but that´s wrong. I don´t think that a Songwriter is rare, I can mention Leonard Cohan, Tom Waits, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, Jon Bon Jovi, Cat Stevens, Alanis Morrisette and so on.

I think there are not many people who made it in the music business just with their words. Ah, I got one – Tim Rice. But I think he learned to play piano as a child, didn´t he

I think many of the lyricist who made it in the music business have some composing skills and instrumental skills as well (iust my opinion).

Most of the times a producer is producing a Songs without words, looking for someone to write lyrics to it. The Lyricist must come up with something, matching the structure and metre of the melody. That´s a bloddy hard job. I wrote some Lyrics that way in German. Some times it takes me an hour just to find out the structure (because you have to count: Line 1 8 sylbs, Line 2 6 sylbs, Line 3…. ) and so on, you have to find a ryme pattern… . Without composing skills I could not do that, maybe some more talented people can J.

And just one more time, because I mentioned that it´s possible to write a lyric in 10 Minutes. Listen to some of the modern songs like “California Gurls”. Do you really think that someone spend more time on this lyric than 10 Minutes?

Ha, a friend told me, that she wrote a song once (in English) and offered it to a Label. An artist picked the song but said: “I need German lyrics”. So the label said: “He gonna record the song today, so you have 2 hours to write a german lyric”. Damn it man J

That's it in a nutshell, Nige. Thank you for putting it so simply.
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Colm, this becomes more and more intriguing.

Colm said: It seems to me from your comments that you exhibit the view that, notwithstanding the fact that musicians have gone to the trouble and time to learn to read, write and play music, that while they might be able to write words they are of course no match for 'professional lyricists?

No. I don’t think this at all, nor did I say it. Many musicians write lyrics very well indeed, just as many write them poorly. This is why they come to forums like JPF, Muse, and elsewhere to ask for constructive critique and suggestions.
Sometimes they contact lyricists privately for advice and feedback, and even with a request for a complete lyric to be written to the music. This has been my own frequent experience.

Lyricists also regularly post their works for honest critique, or will get in touch by PM with other lyricists for input.

Colm said: Lyrics posted on the Lyrics Forums - without an associated MP3 or some indication of the actual musical beat or rhythm of the intended melody are simply inaccessible to criticism regarding meter! Period!

I disagree entirely (though without boldface and exclamation marks ). (See also Nigel’s comment above.)

Lyricists generally post without having an intended melody. They first want to have the lyric content and structure in place before doing their own music or passing it on to a composer. Critiques can help towards a lyric developing a decent internal structure and metered flow, which will lend itself to the eventual music.

Occasionally a lyric is posted with music (or the author will state that music for it already exists), and the suggested lyrical changes follow accordingly. These have largely to do with word choice. It sometimes happens as well that a lyricist will decide to alter the melody because he/she prefers certain changes that have been suggested would work better if the metering were changed. There are many, many factors.

I suspect the reason people don’t ask whether the song/melody will be played in 4/4, 6/8, or 3/4 time is because
a) a lyric posted in the Lyrics forum generally isn’t expected to have music at that point, and
b) if it does have music, it’s the author’s call to inform potential reviewers so that changes they suggest won’t alter the structure of the lyric.

Really, it’s no big deal.

Colm said: In my view Brian should address your comments regarding your belief regarding the questionable ability of skilled and trained musicians to write lyrics with equal detain (sic) as he appears to have addressed my innocent suggestion, aimed at including the quality and experience of collaborations between people who like to write words and people that like to write music!

My implication was that not all lyrics written by musicians are good. By the same token, not all music created by skilled and trained lyricists is good. Nor are all lyrics written by lyricists good, nor is all music written by musicians good. This becomes awfully circular.

Colm said: Most (Not All) of the posters on this thread seem to think (for whatever reason) that I am talking about or in some way demeaning their ability (good or otherwise) to write lyrics. I AM NOT. I never did! I never said that!

The thought never crossed my mind. I thought you were asking “Why don’t lyricists learn an instrument!” and then later “What, if anything, is the difference between pure lyrics and the words of a song?” I answered both questions honestly and as simply as I could (given that the second question was an odd one to interpret).

Colm said: Now maybe Donna that's because (as you believe) the question is irrelevant - the lyrics should stand up on their own! Or maybe it's because they don't understand the relevance of the question?

I don’t believe this at all. Nor did I say anything like it.
As to lyrics standing on their own, I think a decent lyric – which is what lyricists/songwriters here are trying to achieve - should contain the kind of elements (content/originality/structure/meter, etc.) that – together with the music - will transform it into – for them and perhaps for others - a pleasing song.

Colm said: My issue remains the way pure lyricists comment on and suggest corrections to the 'words of songs already written!

I responded above to this. I presume that if a lyricist or songwriter posts to a forum, he/she is asking that suggestions be made with a view to (possible) changes to the lyric. Often a word change or adjustment to the order of lines will make a big difference to the lyric’s impact.

Colm said. It's a critical issue for JPK's and therefore argued about here in the hope of reaching a genuine consensus which suits all members.

It’s certainly not a critical or any kind of issue for me.

Colm said: P.S. Special thanks to Donna for sticking to her guns!

And thanks to Colm for the opportunity to express an opinion.

Donna

PS: Now I'm going to make a cup of tea, work on revising a lyric (thanks to excellent feedback given in the Lyrics forum), and then - along with a vocal melody - send it for music to a wonderful musician/collaborator (who doesn't write lyrics himself). The best of both worlds!