JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Gaining Traction (a game plan)

I've been writing many years, got some publisher contracts and indie cuts, but have never gotten that major cut that so many of us crave. I've asked myself, "why" many times and figured I must be doing something "not quite right".

Recently I have been sending myself back to "songwriting school"...reading and re-reading books on the subject, watching videos and reading articles on the 'net, and (of course) paying close attention to critiques on my material and on others' on this forum and applying that to past work and snippets of songs I've yet to write.

I can already see improvements and encourage everyone that reads this to give your writing everything you can to make it the best it can be...that is, if you hope to have a fighting chance in this highly competitive business.

I just watched a video on Songwriter Space from publisher Lynn Gann, talking about writers wanting to co-write with his staff writers. He made a good point (an obvious one, but one that I think some writers do not consider)...what can you bring to the table that HE DOESN'T ALREADY HAVE?

It's a good deal only if it's good for everyone involved.

Most publishers, artists and other music execs are in this business to make money. If they don't make it, neither does the songwriter.

It's true that you can re-write a song to death. But I don't think a few rewrites will kill one. Just keep your original draft and if rewriting doesn't improve, you can go back to it.

Grab the audience's attention...then hold on to it.

What have you done and what are you doing to get your first cut?

Are acting as if you already are a pro writer?

Who are you cowriting with?

How many songs are you writing a year?

how many radio ready demos have you made?

how many up and coming artists are you cowriting with?

how many workshops and conferences have you attended?

how many days have you spent in the town where your kind of music happens?



Jerry Van Diver's "Your First Cut"
offers a great questionnaire

How close are you to getting your first cut?
(A questionnaire)

1. You play guitar or piano.
____ (2 pts)

2. You set aside at least a three-hour block once a week to write.
____ (3 pts)

3. You also set aside at least a three-hour block once a week to co-write.
____ (3 pts)

4. You are involved in a local songwriting organization (not just a dues-paying member).
____ (3 pts)

5. You do at least one thing each day, no matter how large or small, to further your songwriting career.
____ (5 pts)

6. You visit a major music center (Nashville, New York or Los Angeles) to attend and play writer’s nights, co-write, and network at least three times a year.
____ (4 pts)

7. You actively drop off CDs or tapes of your songs to a music center publisher who has agreed to listen to them.
____ (4 pts)

8. You have pitched your songs in person to a music center publisher.
____ (4 pts)

9. You perform your songs, either solo or in a group or band, in a major music center at least once every two months.
____ (3 pts)

10. You live and frequently participate in music industry events within 100 miles of a major music center.
____ (10 pts)

11. You co-write on a regular basis with someone who has signed a single-song contract.
____ (4 pts)

12. You have signed a single-song contract with a music center publisher.
(Add 5 points for every additional single song contract with a different publisher, but not more than 15 more points – total possible = 20 pts).
____ (5–20 pts)

13. You co-write on a regular basis with a writer who has an exclusive songwriting agreement with a music center publisher.
____ (5 pts)

14. You have signed an exclusive songwriting agreement with a music center publisher that involves an advance and a demo budget.
____ (15 pts)

15. You co-write with a major label recording artist.
____ (8 pts)

16. A publisher has dropped off your song to a major label A&R representative, producer or manager.
____ (5 pts)

17. A publisher has played your song to a major label A&R representative, a producer’s assistant or the manager of a major label recording artist.
____ (7 pts)

18. A publisher has played your song to a producer of a major label recording artist.
____ (9 pts)

19. An A&R rep, artist manager, or a producer has played your song to a major label recording artist.
____ (11 pts)

20. A publisher has played your song to a major label recording artist.
____ (12 pts)


Total ____


Your score:

0 - 20: Now don’t be discouraged. Not everyone starts at the top. All hope is not lost. Look at it this way: there’s lots of opportunity for improvement. You need to discipline yourself to write and pitch your songs. No excuses, just hunker down and get to work.

21-44: You do have a steep climb ahead of you, but there’s still hope. We know there doesn’t seem to be a light in the tunnel yet, but you have begun to build the foundation for your songwriting success. Seriously look at the answers in which you could not give yourself a score and begin working toward making those goals happen.

45-64: You are moving in the right direction but it’s still not enough yet. Get out there and exert yourself. Expand your writing and co-writing experiences. Do some networking with other writers and people in the business.

65-84: You are on the cusp of seriously making it happen. This is a critical junction for you. Honestly examine your songs and find ways to improve your writing and enhance and expand your business relationships.

85-104: This is the place where persistence, determination and your ability to take rejection and move on needs to kick in. Continue to take an attitude that there is always room for growth and improvement. Don’t give up now.

105-130: It’s just a matter of time here coupled with a lot of luck and a great song. Keep at it. Keep writing.

© Copyright 2002, Jerry Vandiver and Gracie Hollombe. All Rights Reserved.

http://www.yourfirstcut.com/questionnaire.php

I cannot believe that someone printed such BULL.
And even worse that people fall for it.

First off songwriting is not about painting by numbers....
I have not heard anything NEW or INNOVATIVE in the charts for many years. Just the same old rehashed cliche driven drivel. I think the reasons why are obvious...people are following the BULL formula that was just printed. So why, apart from chasing a dollar sign, would any musician want to write to such a formula?

Who says that collabs are the way forward? and who says that we should all write for other artists to perform?......many people write for themselves to perform or are capable of writing a whole song all by themselves.....OK there is a place for writing for others and collabs and some partnerships produce great songs but it is not the be all.

Next.... most people should write from inspiration not to a formula...whilst some can sit down and allocate time to writing songs...some prefer not to write to a timetable but when the mood and inspiration takes them....that IMO is when the best songs occur....everyone is different, so any such rules about when and how or who we write with can actually restrict or limit rather than encourage or hone the craft.

Music is an art form and should be treated as art with each person writing NEW songs from the heart in styles they want to write in about subjects they want to write about...the minute business rears its ugly head or we write to a formula...the art disappears. musicians are restricted by such rules and we then have to suffer the bull and mediocrity that I mentioned in my first point.

My last point is that there are plenty of yes men who are willing to join a staff team or collab with them...sadly the people who would bring something new to the table....would not be given the chance for various reasons. Few of these people who hire and fire give originality any chance is probably the main reason.

I also would urge people to write as often as they can...to venture outside their comfort zone.....BUT for heavens sake write original stuff and stop thinking that these music sages actually know what they are talking about.

If you think you write great songs..... then produce them yourselves.....get a decent performer to perform it if you cannot yoyrself and market it yourself....not only do you stand a better chance of making any money but also you will help in breaking down the inpenetrable wall of mediocrity that surrounds us all.

Jim,

this thread started with:


then you wrote
"I cannot believe that someone printed such BULL."

songwriting is art not paint by numbers
but if a songwriter is hoping to get cuts with major label artists they have to do things that increase the odds of it happening

So why would any musician want to write to such a formula?

Who says that collabs are the way forward?
read the songwriting credits in billboard, remove all the songs written by the artist alone. I'm saying if you want to increase your odds of a cut, cowrite with artists, producers and writers who've gotten cuts. Pop is pretty much dominated by production teams where the writing team produces the artist.

we should write what ever we want to write

we should all write from inspiration but we also follow formula's, guideline and structures

Music is art

writing songs that gets cut is just creating art that many fans want to buy

yes men don't join staff teams or collab with them
people with proven skills or artists with potential do

People should write as often as they can...
venture outside their comfort zones

What have you done and what are you doing to get your first cut?

Are acting as if you already are a pro writer?

Who are you cowriting with?

How many songs are you writing a year?

how many radio ready demos have you made?

how many up and coming artists are you cowriting with?

how many workshops and conferences have you attended?

how many days have you spent in the town where your kind of music happens?

I like Ande's list, mostly. With respect to the Vandiver "numerical score" list, I agree with big Jim. That's a survey of how well you're doing sucking up to the Establishment. That's fine, but I would caution would-be suckers that the Establishment does not appear to have the slightest interest in sucking back.

Ande's list attempts to measure how well you're doing improving yourself as a writer, and I think that kind of measurement is important. I try to do it myself.

I think co-writing is important, not because of the "must play well with others" mantra that comes out of Nashville, but because it forces one to evaluate and improve upon other people's ideas, and develop some humility with respect to one's own. Both of you (or all of you, if there's more than two) have expanded your network in the process, too: there are more people aware of what you do. And that's not a bad thing.

Joe

Big Jim, You sure don't pull your punches. I enjoyed reading your views.

Vandiver seems to be a Nashville-based songwriter who's had major label album cuts (on Tim McGraw and Gene Watson albums) but no well-known hits. He's affiliated with Songwriters Guild of America (SGA) and Nashville Songwriters Association International (NSAI) and is a fixture on the Nashville songwriter scene. From looking at his website, I'd guess that he derives much of his income from 'coaching' or 'tutoring' wanna-be songwriters.

His advice confirms that politics, not great songwriting, is the key to success in the music business. That should come as no surprise to anyone.

My advice is that if you want to be a great songwriter, write a great song. Just don't expect the music industry to have any interest in recording it unless you're willing to move to Nashville and play the political game.

On the other hand, if you somehow write a great song, isn't that reward enough?

Exactly......too many people with virtually zero credentials write books or hold seminars or workshops or tutorials.....most cannot write a great song in the first place.....and sadly people fall for this bull hook line and sinker.
There is no shortcut or formula to writing great songs other than having a great talent and musicianship skills and knowing the craft...not knowing people with contacts.

read craig birkhardts songwriting journal
http://www.craigbickhardt.com/songwritersjournal.html

or his ninety mile wind blog
http://ninetymilewind.blogspot.com/

he's had a few cuts
http://www.craigbickhardt.com/discography.html

Ande, Thanks for the blog links. I am just starting. This fella seems to be quite articulate and thoughtful. Not only that, but he seems to agree with my belief that songwriters are born, not made. That gets him extra points.

"Great writers cannot be made, they are born, and the more I try to teach writing, the more I learn why teaching fails."

you bet

also songu offers a lot for writers
get a free trial membership at
http://www.songu.com/IFS/

ande

Good points and great aiding list Ande.

I love these these threads because even though Big Jim may be one of the few who says it, many others will get some of the same thoughts as well.
I always say it comes down to perspective but here it as simple as just understanding "the middle" and the situation.

Most songwriters or anyone in any business either accepts the conditions of that business whether they like them or not.
Jim does not so therefore all or rules or restrictions are off.

It's like a get rich fast real-estate infomercial. We all know that all you need do is BUY some rel-estate and re-sell it for a profit, over & over again right?
So you see these commercials for books and courses,,, one reason is YES the people writing them want to make money from you, AND just doing things the way you think they should be may NOT work... So they set up a PLAN a way to "Work The System"
How to get in with little to no money down, how to work this, what to look for....

Ever applied for disability? Or Food stamps? Or medical coverage?
Have you faced a system where there's something everyone would like to have? A system set up to offer something to you but keep you out at the same time?

Lest assume none of us have the power to change the way the entertainment business is right now.
So we KNOW how it is don't we? Ever listen to a Jason Blume interview? It's almost like an Evelyn Wood speed reading course What he often does is try to explain a way around or passed all these obstacles that are set up and in your way to a songwriting career.

And many of those start with your MATERIAL. FORMULA! Then it's about targeting, then about contacts, networking, marketing, and on & on....

When the thread is about a Game Plan in approaching a career in songwriting and obtaining success with MAJOR labels, publishers and Artist. Then you better pay attention to that list and whatever the hell else you can to improve your chances. IF that goal is what matters most to you...
If you are GENIUS enough to come up with something so new and original and take the entire music industry, entertainment biz and WORLD, by storm then by all means please "Don't NOT do it"

Jim, When the Entertainment Business says to us - We don't care how old you are, how you look, what style and sound you have, that you have NO solicitation, ( ya know the who you know part, just call us we'll listen to you) how long your songs are, etc.. etc..

Then all your points would be practical, while they are very nice they aren't based in reality. Only in the reality of "wishing how things could be" I with you share that wish.
However I'm certainly advanced enough in all this to know, I'm sure glad I don't face the competition of 40 years ago either, then I would STILL be out but for another reason An a more humbling one to boot...

Yes yes, but remember that a SYSTEM can be taught and learned.

So that is a question of either having certain skills and turning or focusing them into a direction that's aimed toward success in a business.
Or starting out with the kind of skills and knack that is already geared towards it.

Do some people actually think that Taylor Swift sits down and say's, well instead of writing my "Every bit as great as Carol King, Joni Mitchel, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan etc... etc.. song"
No she does what she knows naturally, what she was influenced or brought up on. It fits the world she is part of... like that or not.

I know people who said. Okay I am a DJ, now I need to get a sequencer and a sampler and a drum box, and I CAN put this music that I'm promoting together myself.... Okay now I need lyrics
Should I find someone who writes about the long lasting beauty of family and love and the wonderfulness of giving and deep blue seas and,..... or would the kids rather THINK about tappin some booty... Having fun, sex sex sex sex...
Still you need that KNACK for all that... That feels more Made then being born with it... Unless it's all you know and what you want to do... Some may feel "Mozart" is being born with it, or any super gifted musician or singer.. You forget to realize that a STYLE or sound is as much apart of the success as the success itself. It is still considered SONGWRITING and royalty checks will be paid the same...

The first most important thing to recognize or realize is are you "Musical" to begin with? Because when someone is, it's more easily recognized by just about anyone.
From there how hard you work, what you do, who you know is what's standing in front of you.

You could be-
Great and NOBODY knows you.
Not so great and EVERYBODY knows you..
Or somewhere in between trying to get to at least one of them
It's a BUSINESS!!! stop thinking it's not and you can find some peace of mind.

ONE thing is for certain 1000%..in someway or another you have to have CATCHY! stuff. Some use sounds and production to give that others words or phrases and others melodies, sometimes a voice sells or a look or just because it's a SOMEBODY doing it.

But never let that fool you at the stage your at, Catchy is the best thing your song can be and it's NOT easy.... Appealing!
You can read all the books you want, if your not meant for music
no matter what genre it's a hard thing to force. Fortunately for the young people of today the requirements don't always include practicing every waking hour That was yesterday and to them in the now, it don't make a damn bit a difference.

Shayne,

Nobody has anything that they don't already have in that business. So WHO you are is HUGE!
Aside from all that talk the rules,restrictions and beliefs. Here is one thing that happens when something genuine is going on.

A person listening for songs to consider INVESTING in them especially in Country music or contemporary Pop music.
They hear your song and FORGET all the rules,restrictions and beliefs.
It just hits them right and something that they do EVERYDAY feels like Brand New again. Even if it's not a brand new message or it's music that has been done before.

I don't know your work Shayne, I haven't heard it. You show it to me and I can answer that question for you in 30 seconds or less.

All The Best
Mike

Mike,
I used to get more caught up in getting my rhyme schemes and meter consistent than telling a truly interesting story. I've written some exceptional ones in spite of that, but plan to review all my material in 2011, pick out the gems, and rewrite the ones that need it.

That's a great plan Shayne. Trying to get the best combination is also the most difficult thing. I work with a writer who writes the most interesting,intelligent well crafted lyrics I have come across. But those aren't always the one's that reach people.
A great lyric is a great lyric but without being effective musically they never get to be great songs.
I'll keep Country Music in mind because I think that's where your coming from.

The weaker or less substantial lyric can survive behind effective music. In Country I can think of quite a few number one songs recent and old that have that exact situation. Regardless of someone coming along and saying "Oh I love that song & I love those words" "We" should at least know the difference.

While I absolutely adore lyrics and not only praise there importance but torture myself over them literally. However they still in many cases can be switched out for another that works just as well UNLESS they are made to fit that songs meter and vibe.... Then it gets tougher to replace them. We all know this if we had a cool hook with a certain line then tried to change it.

The only reason I'm saying this is because of your initial post
about getting past a point and getting a chance in the big league.
Just look at the charts your trying to get on and see what I mean. You can write the silliest song, the sappiest song or an outright "are you kidding?" song. If it's put across right and it's effective musically, and has the right hooks inside the song and inside the office.. Your chances are going way way up.

Try to hit that middle best you can,never assume you can get a cut with the same song Alan Jackson put together start to finish in an hour. Because with his FIRST hit, the one that broke him that was not the case.

PERCEPTION!
As far as how you feel about what you write and what becomes of it, that's for everyone to decide for themselves. If you wrote Achy Breaky Heart are you still thrilled to death by that BIG HIT or do you care that it's been voted worst radio song ever?
When people make endless fun of Ricki Martin and now Justin Beiber do they ATTACK and criticize the writers? Nope because they are ghosts to the public... They collect checks long after the flash star burns out...

These are some things to be aware of when your always feel like your defending yourself, and being tested by what seems to be everything in choosing to write songs for a living.

Mike I have never liked the system.......I am sure most people regardless of their fame or talent will basically agree that it stinks. Few will actually openly admit it......I am not naive AND I know that the system cannot be bucked.....So you either reject it and do something else or you knuckle down and try to work it.
But hey it does no harm to state that the system stinks...give reasons why it stinks and why we should try to change it......otherwise progress will never be made....the business will stagnate and true talent will never be recognised.

I just adopt the attitude that more time should be spent on writing great songs rather than ass licking your way up through a corrupt society of dinosaurs.

It is a rat race...but I choose not to live with rats or feed off rat scraps......

It is up to each individual to pursue their own goals and do what you enjoy doing. In this modern digital age you do not have to rely on "the man" to make and sell records.

Lets face it though there is a closed shop in this industry and Nashville bolts its doors tight......because of that a whole cottage industry has sprung up to exploit each other....where failed mediocre musicians and songwriters teach wannabe mediocre songwriters how to write mediocre songs and mediocre demo companies will make mediocre demos for mediocre songs all day.

Shayne I wish you well and think that revisiting and reviewing your songs will improve them. I hope you get to the level you desire.
Just remember that critiques have themselves to be critiqued.....in other words you have to ask yourself why do people say what they say about your songs what is their motive and more important what is their pedigree.....is it just back patting....do they know what they are talking about....and if two people say the opposite eg one says a song is too long or one says too short....choose carefully which one to side with. Whilst critiques are a valuable tool they can sometimes be way off the mark. Do not read too much into them.

Jim

All that being said, if your NOT the artist, not young and beautiful with contacts who connect with you the minute there eyes gaze upon you. If you don't play so frigging great that people just drop dead at the sound of you lol.
But instead you are the opposite of all that and all your doing is writing some words on a piece of paper or combining those words with some simple music. Then you want to sell it, because that's how you want to earn a living.
What do you do? Who is making the music that sells in order for you to have that happen?

We all know that answer, so it's more or less case closed. No matter how we pound or jump up and down.

Let me know when the industry takes only what you or I feel is the best qualified or even cares. Until then I can't see any reason to question ANY writers path or guidelines to achieving a nearly impossible goal, a goal so impossible that even if lets assume everything in it completely sucks and you still can't get anywhere at all.
So if a lets say a "sucker" lol gets through and tries to tell somebody else the way they did it, whats wrong with that? It's just information take it or leave it.

You can build the biggest building in the world with your hands all by yourself and it took you 80 years.. You are AWESOME
or somebody rich can walk in and BUY it in one day now they own the biggest building in the world. People think that person is awesome too.
Yeah but the guy who built it had nothing, had to do this and he did that and he suffered and on & on... Yeah I LOVE him too. Either way he had the building.

The guy who bought it without lifting a finger....
Now he's gonna tell the people how he went about buying it, without lifting a finger. Same building.
What's his story?

There are different ways to achieve the same goal. How you feel about it and what you can or can't live with, is all up to you.

Be well and lets try to Skype some time... I hope we can understand each others accents lol

Hey Mike I would love to Skype......I think we have a lot in common. I agree with what you say.....I too remember the day when only musicians wrote songs and performed and it took many hard years of learning and practice to get there.....nowadays it seems that counts for nothing. It is all about social networking and ass licking...talent hardly enters the equation. Not once in any of those blogs or tutorials that Ande suggest I read do they actually talk about the technicalities of songwriting skills or learning to play or perform...all they talk about is meeting people and forming a business plan.....sheesh the world has gone mad.

My business plan was simply to learn how to write and perform great music and if I got paid it was a bonus.

Nowadays they want to get paid as much as possible and if by accident they make great music that is a bonus.

Hope 2011 brings you better health and you still keep making great music.

An aside (sort of): Most educational self-help book I bought but never read was "How to Be Rich" by J. Paul Getty. Paid full price for it, too (at least it was cheap). Guy's a billionaire, right? Should have tons of helpful tips, right? The book starts out, "Well, first you have to be rich." Yes, I did learn a few lessons. I don't know if they were the ones Mr. Getty intended--but maybe they were.

Last time I went to Nashville (2007), I bought one of those "how to make it in the music business" books from a shop at the Nashville Airport that mostly sold nothing else. (Needed something to read while waiting for the plane, which was late as usual.) The book's basic premise was you had to move to Nashville. I left it in the airport lounge for the next sucker.

Joe

I was offered some sage advice that unfortunately I did not heed with regards to making a million dollars in auto racing.
He said simply, "The only way to make a million dollars in racing is to start out with 3 million and work your way down".

Larry

I got some advice once.......I was about 17 and a local hot shot manager wanted to manage our band......."Do not trust him and sign nothing".......I wished I had paid attention and followed the advice. He caused me heartache for nearly forty years and cost me a fortune.

Thanks to everyone that responded. If it was easy, anyone could do it...right?

Thanks, Shayne... for an interesting thread.

You certainly know how to get songwriters "stirred up" and there have been some interesting replies. I tend to fall squarely in Big Jim's "camp" on this one. Jumping through hoops, facing twang-town during evening prayers, paying dues to a flawed fraternity... No Thanks! I'm content to "go it alone" and write what pleases me.

Sure, I realize I'm probably never going to "hit the big time." I started way too late in life and I have no connections of any significance. I'm not young, don't sing or play too well and have no aspirations of being a performer. Songwriting is what I strive to do and I'm fairly prolific. Over the years, I've learned that quantity means very little. If the truth be known, few, if any of us, will ever have our work recorded by anyone who really counts. Still, the thrill of the chase is a significant part of the "game" and I'll be chasing the dream until they drag me away into the nursing home.

My advice is: Do what pleases you first... learn the ropes, practice humility, co-write if you find like-minded writers and performers, practice the art of songwriting on a regular basis... daily if possible. Smile alot, keep your chin up and open up a "can of tenacity" every morning. Don't ever quit... 'cause all it takes is ONE!

My best to you all,

Dave

If I recall correctly, the songwriter who wrote "The Rose" said it came out in less than twenty minutes. That it was just there, waiting to be written. I'm with Big Jim here. Virtually every major artist, and their representatives, decline to hear "outside" songs, no matter the source. So, theey all stick to their inside networks, where the artist/songwiter/producer/friends of the artist/anyone who's recently charted/ all help each other out. And once again, I will reiterate how sick I am of the "honing your craft" (bullshit) line. Ott

Ott, it depends on how you define “honing your craft.” Far as I’m concerned, that means learning to be a better writer (and “better” does not mean “more commercial”). I do not see, and never have seen, what moving to Nashville, &c., has to do with becoming a better writer. (Doesn’t mean I don’t like to visit Nashville—but that’s because I have friends there.) I’ll write stuff because I have to, and perform it to find out if it’s any good, and I’ll sell CDs if anyone wants to buy them—but I decided a long time ago I was going to ignore Nashville as long as Nashville ignored me. Thus far, the arrangement has worked out well for both of us.

Joe

Boys boys now remember a few simple things.

1- You can always do WHATEVER you want musically, no questions asked. No problems outside of your own commitment. Trying to get a check for it is a whole different story. That's what this thread was all about Shayne saying I did ALL THIS now I want THAT!

2- Yes the "in" like to keep it "in" just like ANY other job or business pretty much. Here is the real reality heart breaker.
They would rather use ANY song they have the rights too then take someone else's. I have heard a MAJOR artist write a pretty lame song, (more than once) very very very nothing to it. But keeping 100% of EVERYTHING is better to them than going out finding some great tune from some nobody and giving them a share..

That is a big reason why so much of the industry is as poor as it is. I always believed in my approach, it's very simple and RUDE! Goes something like this...
Knock knock. Hello you been writing songs for 30 years, lets hear three" Okay crap crap, Whoah! This the one, great, now go take a hike we don't give a crap about you were taking this song lol and you'll get your 25% or perhaps better.
Next door - Knock knock, What's your story hand it over lol. Next song....

Now do this 14 times with 14 different writers BEST work. That means you got 14 songs on CD that are SOOOO different from each other the world thinks the artist is a GENIUS... They don't even have a way to READ credits... Now they are ALL better than the artists "Worst Song" naturally that is fact.
And you sell more CD's than anyone else because people want THE WHOLE CD... Not a 99 cent single.. What a concept huh?

Greed over creativity or contribution to an art and a business has ruined that. That is why the Three Dog Night sold more records from 69-74 than anybody else in the world.
Why because your a singer you earned the right to be "The Writer"?
They know they can get away with it or anything else they want.
So they do, the young public doesn't even know what that's all about. Until somebody goes back in time does what I just said and makes it happen, then watch them all follow like sheep.

Instead because your a NAME we'll put our thing out, make nearly a million maybe less and keep all of it. Or we get those outside songs make 20 million and give a taste to unknown writers,
Do you know how CHEAP unknowns will work for when they start out?

Simple fact, I know my best work is better than there worst work.
And so's a lot of other seasoned writers fro all over the place.

Ya Falla?

Mike I agree with one proviso...you said your best work is better than their worst..... WRONG.....in most cases your WORST work is better that their BEST. That is what makes me really mad.
That is my whole point and why I keep making it about mediocrity. These people know that they are mediocre.....why else would they fear outsiders so much.....If they were the cream then they would open their doors without fear because no others could threaten the best.
Refusing to even compete with others is a sign of fear and weakness and they know it.

1.Write what makes you happy.

2.Find successful music that sounds like the music you write that makes you happy.

3.Find out how it became successful.

4.Do that.

5.Pay no attention to those people who tell you you can't or shouldn't, or, especially, to those who don't like the music that you do.

6.Don't buy anything you don't need. Especially if it is being sold by someone who promises you success.

7.If your happiness depends on your success as an artist, you have it all mixed up. Your success as an artist depends on whether your art makes you happy. You can never make a dime from your art and be happy. You can make a billion dollars from your art and be miserable. That should tell you something.

I've always written what sounds good to me. I've just hoped that what I write is also what they want...but it's never been a do-or-die situation for me. I'm also a drummer, and playing in my band is quite satisfying, whether my songs make it or not.

_________________________

I like all the perspectives and can see merit in all of them.



Tom

Well Justice and I are taking two general approaches:

The first is local --- performing where she can, handing out cd's to radio stations and talking to the people there, getting articls about her in the local papers, contacting advertising agencies, etc.

The second is widescope - sending cd's to Disney Radio, etc... Youtube videos, distribution through CDBaby (I know this is not marketing), soundclick website etc --- long shots at hitting somehthing/


Tom

I understand you totally Jim. I said that because it really pins the point to the wall.In other words your CD has 12 songs on it
wouldn't you rather have my LIFE long best song and the best ones from others rather than your worst songs? That answer is NO...
Also because I am forever humbled by music itself and never claim that I have more or better to offer.. UNLESS I'm directly up against it and then I know it from my experience not just my heart. That's what lets me know something is good or effective even if I hate it I know countless people who can not do that.

And the third reason is I think of EVERYONE and everything when I say it. Not just only the lame or weak tunes or artists. There are really good and great songwriters out there in all kinds of music. To not recognize that for me would be a sign of "cluelessnes" and I am clueless in many things but not music appreciation. If I were using Country music as an example I damn well know how friggin good a Jeffery Steel is. And I don't have to sit in a room with him to find that out If so then I would be even more impressed.

Being afraid? Knowing? I can see that but in most cases Ego & Greed are the first things that come to mind. If they could see it up close & face to face then that fear factor your talking about would or could be more present.

There is always a posse around a star telling them YOU ARE GREAT
And there's always an agent or lawyer or somebody explaining this
"Okay ya see now the song is 100% ours as is all the publishing"

Ego & Greed!

PS - Thanks for that compliment

Mike, I have to disagree with your use of Jeffrey Steele as an example of country music. He might live and work in Nashville and he might be rich and he might have sold more records than any other songwriter.

But if Jeffrey Steele is country, then you better kick Hank Williams, Kris Kristofferson, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard and Billy Joe Shaver out of the Country Music Hall of Fame.

Jeffrey Steele may be many things, but he ain't a country songwriter. Man, that's just wrong.

Dan

Your kidding right?

Madonna is in the Rock N Roll Hall Of Fame, so there goes any merit to who's in what Hall Of Fame lol.
Dan that's old school thinking and it's the kind of thing you don't want in your head if your serious about cuts, hits, songwriting or any of that stuff. Hopefully MAB doesn't see this he'd have a conniption.

For today's Country Jeff Steele is excellent.
As a songwriting Jeff Steele is excellent.
As a "musical" person Jeff Steele is excellent.

Sit in a room with him, hand him something to play and say play me something of yours son. And you QUIT music after wards
And I don't own any of his songs at all and I still know that.
And Hank Williams is my favorite Country artist ever.

Oh wait I do have one song, "My Town" by Montgomery Gentry which is superb in every regard there is. The lyrics are LOADED with "oh man why didn't I think of thats" Fresh, clever, descriptive and here's a biggie NOT LAME. Effective, sings like cake with hooks all over the place.

Country in the mainstream and in it's most popular form is based in other types of music now. That's a fact, it's way more 80's Rock and 90's pop then it is Loretta Lynn, or Patsy Cline or Wille Nelson who to me has always been more "Americana" anyway, same for Johnny Cash.
You can't point that too any one writer, that is just time and change your fighting. Those who love Rock and True R&B may have it much worse these days

I'll never cry over the difference between Kris Kris Kristofferson and Jeffery Steele. But I will over the difference in Stevie Wonder to Kanye West or Queen to Fall Out Boy
or John Lennon to John Legend. Michael Jackson to Justin Timberlake, Carol King to Taylor Swift.
Or any rock band at all today to The Who or Zeppelin

The thing about telling people they are great is a hornets nest.......problem is that the public if told often enough that something is great they start to belive it.
I watched Simon Cowell & co telling folk on X factor that they were great......when they sucked big time...made me feel sick to my stomach. The public would have believed that a dog howling whilst getting neutered without anaesthetic was a great singer if Mr Cowell said so.

Gawrsh has this ever been Fun! Jimmie, I LOVE Ya Man/Keep Tellin' It Like It IS!

Early in my "Career" I made friends with Bob Monaco..3 Dog Night's Manager/Bigtime L.A. Producer. HIS Songwriting Cassette Course was a mere $50..BEST Money I ever spent..(& Trust Me, I've read MANY a Book..including Jerry V's.) He tried to get Gladys Knight to cut a song I'd co-written..&, had she, I'd have been "Somebody" back in 1985..&..heh..life woulda been a lot different.

Back to Reality: Bob quit Producing for (I think it was Capitol Records) and went Indie. Apparently his luck changed..& he literally Disappeared. Years later, I found out he'd moved from L.A. & was (& still is) selling real estate in Vegas. (I'll add I also heard he's workin' on Chakka Khan's "Comeback CD"...so never count a Pro Out.)

The Point: MANY a Hero who Makes It and Offers Good Advice in this Grueling Biz gets maimed by it.

My bit of (Free) Advice is Yeah, Do Whatever You Think'll Work, Have some FUN at it, and develop ALTERNATIVE Routes to Happiness (& even Fame) WHILE you're workin' on the Music Biz.

(Check out the budding Music Career of that Blonde Atlanta Chick on that Housewife Reality Show.)

Life just ain't "Fair"...though I DO understand your Angst, Bro Jimmie!

Best Wishes & Big Hugs,
Stan

The whole thing is amazing. Dr. Luke is not very well know --- except to those who count. He is writing the top pop songs - Circus for Britney, Kissin' You for Miranda Cosgrove, Party in the USA for Miley Cyrus, California Girlz for Katy Perry --- and about a zillion others. And you know what --- he does not care one whit that we don't know who he is. .... or that some of us would not like his songs.

Tom

The whole thing about traction ---- lets get back to that for a moment. That is a great phrase to describe what needs to happen to really hit it.

Tom

Mike, I wasn't kidding about Jeffrey Steele. Snoop Dogg is more country than Steele.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWCa3GvbNUE&feature=fvw

Steele is a successful commercial songwriter/producer/musician/singer/coach/entrepeneur/jack-of-all-trades. Hell, I'm not knocking the guy. And I'm not saying anything negative about him or his songs.

But he's not a country songwriter. He doesn't write country songs.

Even you admit that today's Nashville sound "is more '80s and '90s pop" than it is old school country.

And that's all I'm saying. Steele ain't country.

Now you and MAB can disagree and tout the Nashville propaganda line that country has evolved into what Steele and Taylor and the other pop singers and writers play. I'll continue to say the bigshots call it 'country' for marketing and branding purposes only and that its sound has no more to do with real country music than hip hop has to do with bluegrass.

Call Steele a great songwriter if you want. I just won't call him country.

Yes And there's somebody from the 50's saying that Chubby Checker was Rock N Roll and The Rolling Stones weren't Rock N Roll.

I'm not saying that it's better than Country past, all I'm saying is that it is "Country" now. And his work is particularly good no matter what you label it. Technically it's Country.

He doesn't write Country songs?
What is not Country or not good about the song below? Besides just being a major hit and award winner in Country music.
And this song is like seven years old already....
Tell me again how is Snoop more country than Montgomery Gentry?

My Town - Artist Montgomery Gentry

(Jeffrey Steele/Reed Nielsen)

There's a "For Sale" sign on a big old rusty tractor.
You can't miss it, it's the first thing that you see.
Just up the road, a pale-blue water tower,
With "I Love Jenny" painted in bright green.
Hey, that's my Uncle Bill, there by the courthouse.
He'll be lowerin' the flag when the sun goes down.
And this is my town.

Hey!
Where I was born, where I was raised.
Where I keep all my yesterdays.
Where I ran off 'cos I got mad,
An' it came to blows with my old man.
Where I came back to settle down,
It's where they'll put me in the ground:
This is my town.
(Na, na, na, na, na.)
Yeah, this is my town.
(Na, na, na, na, na.)
My town.

There ain't much goin' on here since they closed the mill.
But that whistle still blows ev'ry day at noon.
A bunch of us still go down to the diner.
I wonder if that interstate's still comin' through.
Come Sunday morning service, at the Church of Christ,
Well there ain't an empty seat to be found.
And this is my town.

Where I was born, where I was raised.
Where I keep all my yesterdays.
Where I ran off 'cos I got mad,
An' it came to blows with my old man.
Where I came back to settle down,
It's where they'll put me in the ground:
This is my town.
(Na, na, na, na, na.)
Yeah, this is my town.
(Na, na, na, na, na.)
My town.

Well, I bought and painted up that rusty tractor.
You can't miss it, it's sittin' right there in our yard.
The County came and took that water tower,
And that's Jenny, with a baby, in the car.
Ah, we're off to Sunday service at the Church of Christ,
And if we want a seat, we better leave right now.
And maybe later, me an old T-roy will show you around,
Our town.

Yeah, where I was born, where I was raised.
Where I keep all my yesterdays.
Where I ran off 'cos I got mad,
An' it came to blows with my old man.
Where I came back to settle down,
It's where they'll put me in the ground:
This is my town.

Mike, The first thing that isn't country about it is the music. I hear a stew of musical styles - Beach Boy harmonies, gospel singing, hard rock guitar, a banjo thrown in as a bow to country, a B-3 for a little rock feel, etc. etc. Nothing memorable about the melody.

As for the song lyric? The images of a small town are well-written. The tractor and water tower are described. There's an uncle, a courthouse, a flag and a sunset. There's an empty mill, a whistle blowing, a diner, a church where's there's no empty seats on Sunday. There's a highway and a baby and a fight with his Dad and a cemetery where he'll be buried someday.

So the writer crammed a lot of information into a very few lines of writing. But where's the story? What's the plot? Where's the drama? What's the lesson?

What's the emotional effect of the whole thing? Does it move you to feel anything?

In short, what's the point?

I expect you will disagree but I'd say the point of the song is simply to make a dollar for everyone involved in the production of the song. And I would say they succeeded.

But is anyone ever gonna compare it Sunday Morning Coming Down? Unlikely.

It's probably a perfect example of corporate 'country' music circa 2010.

Now I'll agree that Lady Antebellum who had a number one hit in Country Music is NOT Country. Or shall I say much further removed than Jeff Steele and Montgomery Gentry. I realized that the second i heard it. The lyric and music to there BIG hit "I Need You Now"
is as much Country as the hit 80's song it's borrowed from "Eye In The Sky" Alan Parsons or the rock pop hit "I Need You Now"

They mention one line with alcohol in it and it's a Country song?
You have a lot more to beef about that Jefferey Steele Dan

To all
But what really counts is are you a fan only of your favorite music or of music overall? Are you a lover of certain songs or are you a songwriter? Can you tell something is good or better than yours even if you don't like it?

Mike, I've got no beef with either Steele or Antebellum. They are both wildly successful in the music business. Steele more so than Antebellum thus far.

I allege that they write and perform what should be called "corporate country" music, not country music. Kris Kristofferson, Hank Williams, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, Shel Silverstein, Mickey Newbury, Jimmy Rodgers etc. wrote country music.

To call what is coming out of Nashville today country music cheapens and debases a beautiful musical form, much like the Blues would be debased and cheapened if you called Snoop Dogg a Bluesman. Call corporate country music what it is and I don't have a problem with it. Obviously a lot of people like the commercially produced music.

I recognize good music when I hear it. And there is a lot of good music out there. I don't have to like a song or style of music to know if it is well-performed or well-written. And I am certainly not going to say the songs I write are better than anybody elses. I write each song as well as I can and I'm satisfied to leave it at that.

Hi,

Okay I understand but still don't quite get it. Can you hear & see the difference between The Lady A song and The Montgomery Gentry song? Doesn't one read, and feel and sound alot more
Country than the other one? It does to me.

It's not a question of a beef, in Rock I know a thousand bands better or more diverse and deeper than Nickelback yet there the only rock band that gets attention constantly over the last 10 years. But there still Rock.... How is Snoop related to a Bluesman musically?

How are Hank Williams lyrics "Real Country" and others aren't? What does a "Cheatin' Heart" say that makes it only relate-ble to Country Music folks?

Or is it just the feel of the song or sound? Still can't figure out how The song I posted isn't Country... yes it has Rock elements in it, but doesn't Blues appear in everything to?
And wasn't Hank kinda Pop once it was commercial?

But again more importantly for those writing songs like Shayne who say's "I would like a cut" Would he say "But it's too bad that anything that isn't old tradition is not really Country and I wanted a hit in my lifetime"

As songwriters and lovers of music we owe it to ourselves to open up all the doors and windows.

Hank Williams? He was tin pan alley. Willie? He's just a hippie rock and roller, no better than the Byrds. Jimmie Rogers? What was he putting all those horns in his songs for? Waylon? Listen to those drums and electric guitars! Who does he think he is. You want real country, you've got to listen to the Carter Family. The rest of it is pop garbage.

Mike Dunbar, I understand the sarcasm, but in each case you beg the question. Williams, Rodgers, Nelson, Jennings and the Carter Family all played a style of music generally recognized as country music. In fact, Nelson and Jennings bucked the commercial Nashville sound of the '60s, a sound which eventually evolved into today's corporate country music.

Nobody is saying that the mass marketers of popular music can't put out anything they want or call it anything they want. But the rest of us don't have to buy their music or the marketing hokum they use to maximize their profits.

I'll still take that Willie Nelson song, thank you.

Mike Caro, I was using Snoop as an extreme example of how disrespectful it would be to true bluesmen by including him in their number.

Certainly you are correct when you say there are elements of the blues in what is generally considered country. American music, like America itself, is a melting pot - or a mutt if you will.

I am not a purist, but I do like country. I also like classical, rock n roll, some of the blues and many of the other sounds and styles of music. Frankly, I don't consider most of the songs I write to be country, certainly not in the purist sense of the word. I write mutt songs myself.

Corporate country music doesn't appeal to me. But it does appeal to legions of fans. That's fine with me. But let's call it what it is, and not try to piggyback it onto the legends of the past.

And I do agree with you, let's open the windows and doors! Music is good.

Ah okay I still don't quite fully get it, and still haven't been giving one reason why that number one hit Country song I posted "Isn't Country" in all regards past or present... but I'm satisfied.....



Mike

What I write, I guess, is what Hank Williams used to play. I don’t know what it’s called now. I referred to it in one of my songs as “dead guy music.” True, the Modern Stuff is not about (as Steve Goodman said) “Mother, trucks, trains, farms, prison, dead dogs and Christmas,” but I don’t have to miss it, because I can write it. What I have a problem with is Industry Insiders claiming there’s no market for it, when I can see the market for it every weekend. But if they won’t play for that market, I will, and if they won’t sell records to that market, I will. It’s okay.

That said, I am impressed pretty much only by good writing—whatever form it takes—and I have seen precious little come out of the Industry Insiders. The only two commercial songs I’ve been impressed with in recent years were one by the Black Eyed Peas (see? Tojiso) and one by Porter Wagoner. The dearth of good writing in Industry circles is, I think, a function of the closed-circle mindset that has pervaded the Industry in recent years; if you never let anyone new inside the circle, what’s inside the circle starts to get stale. And that’s why I don’t listen much to the radio any more. I’d rather listen to you guys and gals instead.

Joe

I do not know why we argue over the importance of genres.....hell some artistes cannot even put their music in a genre.....
As far as I am concerned there are only two genres of music...stuff I like and stuff I dont much care for...

OH and of course I forgot about country.

So those folk who say music is not country mean that if it is not country it is not music....reminds me of The Blues Brothers playin Bob's Country Bunker...."So....what kind of music do they like here Maam?"
"Oh we like both kinds....country AND western"