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Well stevie,
I posted somewhere up above that the Jury is still out on Organized Religion. And so it is. The 64 Dollar Question is how did we all get here? And the 64 Dollar Answer is nobody knows. As you stated, the Universe, in it's present form, is appooxamently 14 Billion years old. That is in Earth years of course. BUT who is to say that this is the first time around? And this is certaintly not the last! While I cannot answer how we all got here I am more than sure that we will be here forever, in some form. Since we cannot answer a lot of pointed questions, all we can do is "Read" between the lines and Judge for ourselves. Actually Jim is doing a pretty good job of understanding the issue. I have never cared what other people believe, but when they come to me with their beliefs, I reserve the right to defend myself. Don't you?

Hi Ray,

Everyone has to answer these issues for themselves when all is said and done and far be it from me to tell you or any others what to believe. I can, however, share the road I've traveled, where it's led me and more importantly, why. I do think it is very important to know not just what one believes but why and to be as informed as possible concerning other schools of thought in making one's life decisions.

I hope in my discussion with Jim that I did not seem arrogant or haughty. I was merely addressing issues he brings up often and the way he speaks condescendently to Christians in particular and those who believe in God in general. I was answering his points one by one, at least where space allowed and I know it was a very longwinded read, lol.

I reflected some today on my tone in a couple of places and probably came on too strong from an argumentative standpoint, as if to win a debate rather than in love as is the way Jesus would probably have handled it although he never backed down when answering his accusers. In that I apologize to any I may have offended, particularly Big Jim. But Jim is a big boy and can take care of himself. Plus, inspite of our spirited debate I do consider Jim as a friend and I'm sure if we were to meet in person, we would have a laugh and enjoy each other's company thoroughly. Nuff said about that.

As a side note, I see you hail from Brunswick, Ga. I lived there for a short time in the mid 80s and helped open the Domino's Pizza on St. Simon's Island. Sherri and I were married at the courthouse in Brunswick. Good times.

Take care my friend,

Stevie

Let me for the record state exactly where I am coming from....I am an Atheist or perhaps I would describe myself more a skeptic and non believer.....I ask questions and when I do not get proper answers point out the wrongs in the things that I see......now I have not seen or heard anything to convince me that there is a God or that Jesus is his son.....quite the contrary I have seen evidence to question beliefs and practices that are held by most if not all religions....religious people have a habit of taking one plus one and trying to make it become six...now try as I might I cannot make that giant leap of faith...I require proof beyond all reasonable doubt... as for Chrisianity ...to be blunt a few handed down letters saying that God exists and that Jesus was his son does not convince me of anything much.....there is so much doubt as to the authenticity and accuracy of such letters as to cast grave doubt on just about all of their content. Now even if such a person called Jesus historically did exist then the chances are that he was nothing more than a charismatic character with a bit of a following to say he is the son of God is a bit of a jump....It is widely held that in the days of the Roman Empire many occupied countries had resistance movements that rebelled against their oppression and thousands at a time were crucified it is not outside the realms of possibility to suggest that Jesus was one of the many.....
History is full of charismatic people with large followings.......examples include Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, various Roman Emperors and Egyptian Pharaohs, Mussolini, Hitler, Robin Hood and Simon Cowell etc etc....they can hardly be described as sons of God.....no matter how many letters, legends and myths were written about them..Now the human race is prone to misinterpretation and exaggeration so I see nothing in the Bible that cannot be simply attributed to this phenomenon.....
On a different note is it any wonder I get haughty and angry when I see the evil and corruption around me and the way pious religious people act.....They are full of hypocrites and corruption......they almost all operate a policy of inequality and discrimination especially towards women...and some incite folk to commit murder in the name of their God....yet they all seem to view non religious folk especially Atheists as some sort of ignorant barbaric heathens...when truly it is they who are barbaric.....I am a pacifist and bear no grudges....I would rather help than hurt...and as Stevie says can laugh and joke with anybody. I mean no insult or disrespect just airing my general opinions.

Now regarding creation...I am no expert in physics and allied subjects so I cannot comment...I struggle with relativity and the concept of infinity.....but even with my tiny brain.....a creator looks to be the longshot when it comes to how we came into existence.....Ray says the Jury is out well IMO there is insufficient evidence for creation to even bother a courtroom....when a thing is built on nothing but indoctrination pure faith and hearsay it is built on a flimsy foundation....and when relgions who are full of wrongdoers try to impose their will on people who do not believe as they do then they deserve criticism.

Hey Big Jim,

You and I are destined to agree to disagree on these matters and that's fine. I take no offense to anything you say and I hope it is the same for you concerning myself. It was an entertaining and interesting debate though, wasn't it? I wish only the best for you Jim and like I said, I consider you a friend even though we've not met in person. Maybe when you make your retirement trek through the USA we can meet up. I'd like that.

In the meanwhile God bless you (ok, I had to get one last dig in,lol).

Love ya Brother,

Stevie

Stevie.....I look forward to meeting you my friend andas many of my extended JPF family members as I can.....on one thing I agree with you...regardless of where we came from and where we are going we are all in it together.
Peace and have a great New Year......I had plans to visit but due to illness and other matters (like work and family committments) they have been put on the back burner for a while....maybe one day.......
JIM

Well I don't know about all this. But there's things I see where I really wonder what all this means. I don't consider myself a very smart person when it comes to this stuff and when I think about the Universe and life and death it causes me to get a knot in my stomach and I start feeling like I need a Xanax.
The thought of being dead terrifies me but at the same time I know it is just another part of life and should not be feared. Like the song says "I just want to go on being me".
I love nature, being out in the woods and just sitting and seeing nature. Not just seeing it, feeling it. I have often thought I'd like my death to be that way. Prop me up against a tree somewhere out in the wilderness and let me fade away. I think that would be a good way to go.

Then I experience something like the picture below and wonder where all this came from and how it got started. When I see the beauty and the wonder of this little creature I can't help but think this all could not have been just an accident of the right things coming together in such perfection as this.

I don't understand Athiest's who insist on pushing their values on other folks. We have people who file lawsuits because they don't like the idea of someone saying a prayer in a public place.
And I don't understand religious folks who insist the rest of the world adopt their idea of God.

Anyway here's the wonderful accident of nature.

When a person becomes a born again believer, we become a priest, a servant of God. We are told in His word that we are to tell others of God's plan of salvation, about Heaven and Hell, if we do not, then the blood of the lost can be required of us. The Gospel is to be preached to the whole world as a witness, then the end will come. The church is trying to spread the Gospel to the world, as the word says, we Christians are required to tell people we come in contact with about God and Jesus,etc. Now it is not easy to bring up religious beliefs in every day conversations, but if we believe the bible, we are suppose to, we are to do it in love, but some people don't want to hear it and if that is the case, we are to leave it alone, they have heard and rejected it, but it is not easy to see people you love and respect walking toward destruction, so we continue to try, even though the bible tells us "not to cast your pearls before swine".

I have three grown children that are not born again and I can not turn my back and not continue to try and show them what is coming. If I believe it to be true,which I do, I would not be a good parent if I didn't tell them and tell them and tell them, hoping it will sink in. Just as I told them over and over when they were small, not to play in the street.

I try to love all people but some are harder to love than others,(LOL), if I love them, how can I not try to make them see. If they choose not to believe,there is nothing I can do to force them, but when some people curse you for loving them, it is not easy to take, but Jesus said some will hate you for His sake, and we are to love even our enemies. I was once blind to God's plan of salvation and being born again, even though I had read the bible, but I had read it with my head and not my heart. When I decided to read it and study it with and open mind and heart, the Holy Spirit show me things that I did not see or understand before. I was seeking, seek and you shall find,knock and it will be open unto you. He who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. All this is in the bible, but first you have to believe the bible is the word of God. What other book has lasted as long as the bible, what other book is the top seller year after year, what other book has been claimed to be written by God, dictated to men by the Holy Spirit.

Some may think I am a fool for believing, but I would sooner live my life by the bible's dictates as best as I can,believing in God, and later find I was wrong, then to live my life as I saw fit, not believing in God,and then finding out I was wrong.

You can be saved on your deathbed, but very few do, the Holy Spirit has to call you to salvation, if you didn't listen to His call all your life, you may not hear Him then. I love you guys with the love of the Lord, even if you don't believe as I do, I still have to tell you, even if you don't want to hear it. May God bless you and open your eyes and ears to the truth. Jim, I think you would make a great Christian, just as Paul did once his eyes were opened.

Bill most Atheists do not push their values on other folks...quite the opposite..in fact pushing values on others is most associated with religion .....the very thing that angers me most about organised religions...they unquestionably follow what others think preposterous ways....BUT due to blinkered vision think they have a divine right to expect their beliefs and ways to be the only way. They spend their lives trying to make others think as they do especially the children who do not stand a chance, completely brainwashed into believing the same...if someone wants to pray or follow other such religious dogma then that is up to them.... I have no problem with allowing such practices.... as long as folk have freedom of choice and it does not inflict upon others rights.....BUT when someone wants to blow themselves up in a crowded shopping mall.... OTHERS prevent women from being treated as equals.... some refuse to let others adopt a different belief and will murder or throw in prison anyone from a different faith who even asks simple questions..... Now when someone steps out of line all in the name of some god or other then we must have the right to criticise......and try to redress the balance.......
All I ask is that people question more rather than blindly follow and accept dogma and doctrine as fact. Seems very strange to me that beliefs are not so much determined by each individual reaching a decision after much careful consideration....BUT are very much dependant of where you are born and to what belief your parents were indoctrinated into...and how dogmatic and narrow minded they were about them......someone has to speak against the evils of organised religion cause it has a habit of immunity from the law and outside intervention.

Let's go back to John's Original Question. John, that is a question for Billy Graham! Now to be sure Religious people will have an answer of some kind for you. I think he has a Web Site so you can probably post it there.

You know I have been pondering about some of those things in the Bible. You take the Sermon on the Mount. Now don't that just get you? Look at how well it is written. And that Quaint Title. SERMON ON THE MOUNT. Powerful stuff. Now I have no doubt someone took a lot of Literary Licence when writing that one down! No one could be that well read for that subject! And look where it was held. Not in any old place, but on a Mountain! Do you suppose? And that LAST SUPPER thing. Man what a setting! What Drama! Now who could write such a thing? If I coud only write songs that good!

"OTHERS prevent women from being treated as equals...." - Jim

Made me think of the new gender-inclusive Bibles (more female friendly). More changes in the translation. These translations through the centuries does make one wonder how far the original Bible has been altered. And how much further the new translations will go.

John

Everett
I do not have an issue with you personally. I don't have an issue with anyone.
I have studied with three different religious denominations in my life. All Christian. All professed to be the word of God. All said the same thing. If you don't belong to our denomination you will not be saved. If you were born again as a Lutheran you won't be saved as a Baptist, etc. Not saying those were the ones I studied with. I'll keep that to myself.
I was Baptized when I was 15 years old. I had reached the age of understanding so it counted. Unlike other sects that baptize infants. An infant cannot except Christ. An infant doesn't know anything, or so some Churches say. See what I mean?

When I started up with another Church I was in my early 30's. I was told I would have to be Baptized again and accept Christ as my savior. I told them I already did that. I was told it didn't count because it wasn't their Church. Even though they were Christian.
As I recall My son was not saved either. He died as an infant before he was Baptized. We were told he won't see the Kingdom because we didn't Baptize him.
I quit.

My point is they all tell you if you don't belong to their church you are doomed.

I just don't understand that way of thinking I guess.

Jim
I don't have a problem with your beliefs either. If you don't believe God created this life that's fine with me.
Personally I just don't know and doubt I ever will.

But don't try to tell me Atheists don't try to push their own agenda and dogma on others. I don't know about Scotland but here in the US they do it all the time. They file suits to stop people from displaying religious symbols on their own private property. They file suits to stop people from praying in Public places. They constantly attempt to disrupt religious practices if it is in Public. They want all religious artifacts removed from any facility that is open to the public. They use our laws and Constitution to further their agenda. It happens all the time.

And from what I see you do it right here.
Yeah, yeah, I know. You will deny it til the cows come home but your posts tell a different story.

But to be honest I am OK with that, you are simply defending your position and I respect that.

I don't want to scare anybody with this, but here's a little secret: men and women are not equal. Nope. We have different plumbing. Moreover, no two people are equal. We are individuals. I'm not as tall as Jim, not as strong as Bill, not as fast as John, not as smart as Stevie, not as developed in my Christianity as Everett. Heck, I'm less equal than any of y'all.

This myth of "equality" seems to have been supercharged by the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Funny, though, he never ever said all people were equal. He was too smart and too careful to say that. He knew people are not equal. So, what he said was, that all men are "created equal." Well folks glommed on to the "equal" part, but left out the "created" part (created by whom, I wonder? ) We are all born in the same way, all made in the same way, and all created by God in the same way. But we are not all the same, though we seem to be marching toward a world where men and women wear the same clothes, all school children get the same grades and all people, since we disagree about God, must simply not have God in our lives at all, we still won't all be equal. Why? Because that ignores the truth. The truth is that we're all individuals, all unique in our strengths and weaknesses, and all regarded, not by each other, but by our creator as equally deserving of salvation. We can believe that or not.

AHHHH but Mike you can sure play the Bass.

Good post Mister Dunbar.
BTW I've been watching the Cowboy Church webcasts. Nice group of folks there. I have been considering paying you folks a visit.

Well,
I know I can't play Bass as well as Mike Dunbar or write songs as well as Bill Anderson or sing as good as Marty Robbins or play drums as good as Buddy Rich but I take a back seat to no one when it comes to messing up a Soup Sandwitch!

I remember when I wasn't "saved." I thought differently. Mostly I thought I was always right. Then at the age of 22 I was exposed to people who read the bible, believed the bible, and tried to apply it's teachings to their lives. It took about 7 years for me to reach the point of "surrendering" to Christ. I basically went through these stages: not believing, wondering if it could be true, believing it was true but not for me because I could choose, believing it was true but not for me because I was too bad for God to love, then believing it was true and God could love me. When I reached that final stage, which came after two major sins in my life, when I knew I could blame no one else but me (and the devil), and when I realized there was no way to change how I hurt people, I surrendered.

God forgave me and the weights rolled off. I wasn't perfect and in fact I guess in some ways I'm worse because I know the Truth and I know there is an escape from every temptation, but I was better off. My desires changed, I knew I wasn't always right anymore, and I knew there was something/someone more important than me. I learned to say no more gently.

I believe the Bible holds the answers for all our problems. I believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I believe no one gets to heaven without His say-so. I believe the world would be a better place if everyone was a Christian. I know this will never happen because the Bible tells me so. I try not to "press" my beliefs on people but I do try to give testimony when I can. As a rule, I would rather be around Christians than non-believers.

Jesus said in Matthew 11:28-30:

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

My life B.C. was like this from the book of Joel 1 (NKJV):

What the chewing locust[a] left, the swarming locust has eaten;
What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten;
And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten.


My life A.D. is like this from the book of Joel 2(NKJV):

“So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, The crawling locust, The consuming locust, And the chewing locust, My great army which I sent among you.

Equality is a different thing from being the same...yes we are all different and have our own individuality....but I would have thought that we all should be treated as equals regardless and have the same rights and command the same respect.....but if folk think different from that then that is so WRONG in oh so many ways.
Now Bill unlike some religions I believe in free speech and equality......I cannot see how some could take offence at someone displaying images or praying in public or whatever.....to insinuate that I would condone that shows how little you know me and how wrongly you interpret my posts......now we have the right to free speech and to dispute or argue and put ALL our opinions forward.....but nobody has the right to stop others from this expression....that is freedom......sadly IMO it is religion that generally tries to take that right and equality away. In my country and probably in yours laws are made to prevent people from doing things like selling alcohol on Sunday and having certain medical procedures including abortion...they even tried to make contraception illegal just because a certain church deemed it immoral....I have nothing against the church voicing opinion...but they should never be allowed to turn their narrow mindedness into laws which affect us all....now I am glad that some people have found god.....I just hope that these folk broaden their minds beyond that to solving the problems of man....to say that you would rather be around believers than non believers and try to hold testament as often as possible kind of sums up the very reasons I have never fallen for religion.....personally I would rather be with good honest people and could not care less what beliefs thery follow....it is how they treat mankind that counts...not all good people are religious....in fact some of the most horrible distasteful ignorant people I have met have been deeply religious....or should I say claimed to be.

Jim, equality is exactly the same as being the same. Equality by definition means being equal. What you are speaking about is "fairness." Bill's idea of what is fair may not be the same as mine. There are as many ideas of "fair" as there are people. That's where God comes in. He provides an eternal perspective. He also came up with a better way to treat people than as if they are equal or by trying to be fair to someone who has a different definition of fair. God says treat others, not as they wish to be treated, but as you would wish to be treated yourself.

These statements have bothered me since they were made on December 23. I'll bet I could find as many writings and documentaries saying archaeology have proven things in the Bible as someone else can find saying archaeology has disproven things in the Bible. Believers are naturally going to be drawn to the former and nonbelievers are naturally going to be drawn to the latter.

We also need to keep in mind archaeology is sometimes wrong and it sometimes takes a while for the truth to come out.

Mortal man's discoveries aren't going to change my belief in the immortal God.

Here are some links to either disprove or prove the bible:

http://www.google.com/search?q=archaeology+disproving+the+bible&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.google.com/search?q=archaeology+proving+the+bible&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Jim I do not doubt your own personal sincerity.
I don't doubt you are willing to live and let live.

But reading your post you give that same credence to all atheists. That you don't believe atheist would ever do anything wrong. They are all pure at heart and too smart to fall for the "dogma" you preach against.
Yet you label all religions as evil and anyone who practices a belief in God is evil and stupid.
I did a Google search trying to find an example of a religious group stopping an Atheist group from practicing their belief.
I couldn't find one.
I could add hundreds of links to stories of Atheists disrupting religious events or preventing people from celebrating Christmas but what's the point.

Bill I cannot defend anyone disrupting folks right to go about their business......I have the right to and can howver criticise behaviour I see as hypocritical and counterproductive to society...that includes most religious groups......
Now some Christians like quoting from the bible to justify their actions and certain aspects of their religion.
I quote Mathew 19. 21 and Luke 18. 18
very few Christians I have heard of are prepared to sell off all their posessions and give to the poor...but they seem to cherry pick other parts of the bible to justify those parts of the Bible they want others to accept.
I am wondering when the great bring and buy sale is going to be and when more true socialists join the ranks......Obama must be worth a few bob and the Republicans billions.....cause after all most of them are Christians.

Well, if you read it, it seems Jesus wasn't talking to a believer. And did you notice the fellow also lied? Jesus included "don't bear false testimony" in His answer to the man and the fellow said "all this I've done since my youth." I don't think there's anyone except Jesus who hasn't told a lie, including this guy talking with Jesus.

So Jim
Are you saying you and your Atheist friends have sold everything and given it to the poor?
It just seems funny the only hypocrites you know of are religious.
I guess it is kind of refreshing to know Atheists don't need religion to justify their actions.

Not sure why you bring politics into it but if you really want to know some of the big earners are also left wingers with very Socialist ideals. Harry Reid comes to mind. He has doubled his wealth since 2004. Funny how that works isn't it. $3.2 million to $7 million in 2010 while the rest of the working stiffs are going broke.
Pelosi? $40 million in 2004 about $110 million in 2010. Whether they are Christians or not I don't know.
Obama? He got his writing a couple books. Of course I think that was also after he got "Elected" to Office. He was worth about $300 K in 2004. He was worth about $7 Million in 2010.
Politics does seem to pay well. Even for left wing socialist types. I don't think their religion had anything to do with it.

But it looks like we have hijacked this thread now. Heading off into politics.
Sorry about that John.

Bill I am not a Christian so why should I give away anything to follow something I do not believe in.....that is something all true Christians should do cause it clearly says it in the Bible in multiple places....to dispute that or fail to do it is a cop out.....but it would seem that some religious people only want to follow certain parts of the scriptures. They ignore or put their own interpretation on the parts they do not want to put into practice..I do my bit for disadvantaged and homeless and unlike some I am not materialistic....my wife and family will bear witness to that..I have no need or dream for wealth....as long as I can do what I do and feed my family......I am happy....but living in a capitalist society I have to adapt to their rules or starve....I wish it could be different.....all that said if the rich gave away some of the horded wealth that they could not reasonably spend in a lifetime on the necessities of life then the world would be a better place..... with or without religion.
Sausage there are many places in the bible where money and wealth are mentioned so I suggest you study them...they ALL talk about giving it away or sharing it or discuss the evils of wealth.....example "You cannot serve both God and money" I believe it is from Luke but cannot be bothered to look up the exact quote and which chapter and verse it comes from.
Both Sausage and Bill especially right wing Bill might be interested in reading this article I came across....the guy talks sense even for a Christian... LOL
He discusses socialism and tries to define it...the guy has a lot in common with my views...I agree with most of what he says....He debunks the common misinterpretations and misunderstanding of Socialism...he even talks about Obama....who is definitely NOT a socialist....unlike him I do think that Socialism could stand on its own...but I take his point about the need for some capitalism with a very small "c"
http://valentinelogar.hubpages.com/hub/Jesus-was-a-Socialist
Sorry to get political but religion and politics are intertwined...perhaps if people accepted that fact and practiced what they preached then the world would be a better place.

Sorry the guy in the article is a she...LOL... senior moment by me.
I just re-read the piece....I also read the comments and replies she gave...a lot of reading but it sure was worth it.....I especially liked the way she put down the folks with agendas who were trying the old trick of twisting things to interpret them to their liking.....not a one came away without being shown as foolish.... I have great respect for this lady tis a pity that she represents a minority view.

Golly John, 3 pages worth of responses. Who knew there were so many "born again Christians" on JPF...

Midnite

Yeah, this thread took on a life of its own Bob. Though some very interesting reading here.

John

Humm,
This thing isn't settled yet? Yes it would appear Jesus was a Liberal/Socalist. Always wanting someone else to pay the bills. Now you folks all need to go listen the MONEY GREESES THE WHEEL By Ferlin Husky on YouTube!

For you Non Captialists business can't work on Poverty Wages if they are to pay the workers. They tried it in the Old Soviet Union but it failed!

Ray please read the article linked in my last post.....it just might set you right on a few things you do not understand and keep getting wrong....also clear up your misconceptions about true socialism...not to be confused with communism which you and others always seem to manage to achieve....FYI I am a socialist not a communist.....I bet you would be miffed if I called you a fascist instead of a right wing capitalist....here is an article explaining in detail the lies, myths and scaremongering tactics people like you are responsible for...like making socialists out to be evil freeloading anarchists...and claiming that capitalists are kind hearted patriots....
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/1...capitalism-and-who-the-job-creators-are/

The way I see it--and these three pages illustrate it clearly--we all have but two choices: faith or uncertainty.

The only thing that may or may not harm us is uncertainty.

Does this about sum it up Jim?
If it does...No thanks

Merriam Webster
Socialism
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
(Nanny State no thanks)

2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
(no freedom no thanks)

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
( no thanks if it leans toward communism where its by need rather than deed. If it stays Socialist where you get what you earn I can agree if the government doesn't own everything.)
Had to edit this last one.
Can you say Obama?

And you believe Christians should give up all they own because the bible tells them they should, yet you boast of being a Socialist who owns property you won't give up because Christians don't? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Seems like Christians and Socialist Atheists have the same problem.

Oh, and I am not a right winger. I am centrist. There are some issues on the right that I do not agree with. Just because I am not a lefty does not mean I am a righty

Uh, Jim,
I took a brief look at your Article. It seems the Liars are Figuring or the Figures are lying. Here in the U.S. it was Free Enterprise that made the country what it is today. It was people, not Government that built the enormous wealth, that all people participate in and enjoy. True, we had some growing pains and some adjustments over the years but still we prevailed. So you would think after all that success we would be on Easy Street,eh? So enter the Do Gooders and Liberal Thinkers. With this great plan and that great plan things will be all better. Now after 75 years of big thinkers we are no better off than we were 75 years ago and we are 15.5 Trillion Dollars in Debt. That, my friend is Socalisim!

So what is my plan? Just this. If I have $3000.00 dollars a month to spend on living expenses, I had better not be spending $4000.00 a month. If I do that I am a Liberal/Socalist.

And Jim. Business can't operate on a Shoestring. They have to make enough Profit to get thru the Lean Times. Otherwise they may have to lay workers off or fire them. Therefore they may have excess profits at their hands when the need arises. That is Conservatisim!

Now Jim if you went to play a Gig, that was booked months in advance, and the propriator was low on funds he may not be able to pay you. That is Economics 101, Jim. You may not understand Economics but you sure understand not getting paid for a gig. That is how sucassful business works. If you want to work for no pay, it's all right with me, but most people that go to work need to be paid, on a regular basis. Business that operates on a shoestring don't last very long. How many Gigs have you done and not gotten paid??? Get the picture???

Jesus did not tell Christians to sell everything they own and give it to the poor. He told that to a particular man who loved money more than God. Jesus tested him, just as God tested Abraham.

Jesus admonished Judas at the last supper. Judas was appalled that the woman poured expensive oil on Jesus' feet. Judas said that oil could have been sold and given to the poor. Jesus told Judas, and I paraphrase, that there would always be the poor, but not always the chance to glorify God. For the full story, you can search here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/

In order to be saved, a Christian is simply to be born again, to believe in Christ and turn over their life to Him. If, after being saved, God asks that they give all they have to the poor, or that they create a giant corporation to give jobs to the poor, or that they write and sing songs glorifying His name, or that they live in poverty and humility as a monk, then they should do so. Christians find what God wants them to do through prayer, examining His word, and discovering and developing the talents He gave them.

Jim, perhaps God led you to those passages because He wants you to sell all you own and give it to the poor? I don't know if that is so. If you give your heart to Him you may find the answer. I pray that you are blessed.

Mike

Doug, I couldn't agree with you more. I think, honestly, we all know that no one is going to have their mind changed here. People just like to argue about it. This thread could go on for years, and nothing will really change (or thousands of years). Not saying I mind, as I find it all good reading. Just have to hope that people, in the end, will tend to their own garden, and that they have something worth growing in it.

I have a relative by marriage that restores old cars. Nothing makes him happier than to be working on a classic automobile. Also, he is a professional mechanic.

I said to him once, "They don't make 'em like they used to, do they?"

He said, "Are you kidding? Cars made these days are safer, more efficient and more reliable by far"

We won't get anywhere until we stop looking fondly back to a past that never existed.

Scott

Humm,
Well Scott I had a realtive that also restored or rather worked on old cars. All he and his partner worked on was 55, 56, and 57 Thunderbirds. He is now deceased. But, as you may have noticed, there are a large number of new economical cars being manufacured! Just today I saw on either Fox or CNN that K-mart/Sears is closing 100 Stores. That says to me that the Economy isn't improving to any extent. As long as the Government keeps Robbing Peter to pay Paul people may get by. Why after 75 years of Social Engineering are we/the country in such Dior Straits?? Will we stave of another depression? You are too young to remember much of the past. And so it goes.

Bill you have it and me all wrong......sadly you are mistaken in your thoughts that everyone is wrong except the Christians and the capitalists. Twist my words any way you want....you might fool yourself but not others who perhaps have a more moderate or democratic political view.

Mike you also interpret or twist to suit the occasion. There are other scriptures that state that the followers of Jesus divided up money and possessions each to his needs or to be given to the poor..... try reading Acts 2.45
Re the expensive oil I could not quite get my head around the sudden change of attitude either.....got me questioning the consistency of such a man.
Mike I pray that you read ALL of the Bible before again dissing someone who knows what they are talking about. JFI Jesus never led me to anything.... I started reading the Bible as a kid cause it was forced onto me as part of my lessons...that is a bone of contention but I will not say more..I kept it up over the years.....it is a good read and bestselling novel there are some great moral lessons from it....although I tend to sometimes skip the boring so and so begat so and so bit..I do follow my conscience re morals and it is surprising how often it coincides with some of the teachings. However the more I read it and study other things the more I disbelieve in a God or Jesus...and the less respect I have for religion in general. I will gladly sell all my possessions and put it in a pot to be divided each to his needs...if you and all other Christians especially rich capitalist Christians follow Jesus teachings and do the same first. I reckon redistribution of wealth might improve things for most at the expense of a few....considering a greedy 7% of the population own 84% of the wealth and we are now forced into bailing THEM out.
Why is it that Christians have this ability to second guess what God wants and they hear what he tells folk to do...never could understand it?......If you hear God and feel his presence then you are very lucky cause folk usually get locked up in an asylum if they hear voices or see hallucinations....they are branded as delusional.

Ray you lost me years ago cause your grasp of reality is matched by a vivid imagination that lets you see a whole other parallel fantasy world none of us live in.... completely unreal....You seem to think that rich people are some kind of benefactors and we should be thankful for the crumbs they throw us.....JFI I have played more than a gig or two for charity and have reduced my rates because an owner of a venue has fallen on hard times....that shows friendship and loyalty.....and business sense.....similarly they reciprocate and offer to pay more when times are good.......I understand economics, trust and loyalty.....that is why I will never agree with you on capitalism......cause under true capitalism there is no friendship or loyalty....when times are hard folk get laid off and when times are good they pay what little they can get away with....using the minimum workforce required by law...to make the max profit....A pal once said "Christianity would be all right if they put prophets before profits".....funny joke and sadly true.

I am sorry for ruffling a feather or two but maybe it is time some feathers were ruffled......with so many against me I think I have struck a nerve.....at least it gets folk thinking.....and possibly questioning beliefs and dogma.

I am not religious, I am Christian, there is a world of difference. In religion man reaches up and tries to please and unknown and uncaring God, in Christianity, God reaches down to man in love, sent His son to reach and teach us how we should treat each other. Not all claiming to be Christian are really Christians, wolves in sheep's clothing. The tares and the wheat parable tells us that. Christians are not perfect, only forgiven. We make mistakes but God is just and faithful to forgive our mistakes if we ask. I don't pretend to be Holier than another person, just forgiven for my short comings. Without Jesus I would never make Heaven, with Him I will. It is available to who so choose, many will and did, many more will not.

Jim, I have read all of the New Testament more than once and a great deal of the Old Testament, and I disagree.

I believe God wants us to be responsible stewards of our finances. I don't believe he wants governments to do this for us. Interestingsly, in the Bible, there are many examples of God blessing those who are rich and blessing the faithful with riches. her's an example:

1 Kings 3
5 At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night; and God said, “Ask! What shall I give you?”
6 And Solomon said: “You have shown great mercy to Your servant* David my father, because he walked before You in truth, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with You; You have continued this great kindness for him, and You have given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day.
7 Now, O LORD my God, You have made Your servant king instead of my father David, but I am a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in.
8 And Your servant is in the midst of Your people whom You have chosen, a great people, too numerous to be numbered or counted.
9 Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?”
10 The speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing.
11 Then God said to him: “Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked long life for yourself, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern justice,
12 behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you.
13 And I have also given you what you have not asked: both riches and honor, so that there shall not be anyone like you among the kings all your days.
14 So if you walk in My ways, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days.”

And this puts it into perspective:

1Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.

2His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.

3Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

4Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.

5A good man sheweth favour, and lendeth: he will guide his affairs with discretion.

6Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance.

7He shall not be afraid of evil tidings: his heart is fixed, trusting in the LORD.

8His heart is established, he shall not be afraid, until he see his desire upon his enemies.

9He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.

10The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Aw, Well,
No one has ruffled my feathers. Big Jim I don't think you under Captialisim. You assume "Rich" people tolerate poor people by giving them a few crumbs. Few people are born rich Big Jim. Most work for it. Some figure out an Enterprise and put a plan together and go to work. Now some don't succeed but those that do take a lot of people with them when they become successful. And most of the time they have to borrow money to get started. Where do they get the money, Bij Jim? They most likely borrow it! Most likely they start out small, Conservative you know. And many times a business is sucessful and they expand! And when they do they hire more people! That's how they get rich. Working for it! It is Free Enterprise. After a coupla hundered years they may even become Captialists! Dam! now they are just more Rich Captialisists! They probably give away a lot of money to Charity. Well dam! That is just a Tax Write off! People bitch. Rich people ain't givin' us nothin' That's how it is. Some people will never get the message and go right on bitchin' Go figure.

Everett Christianity is a religion.......so by def you are religious......despite whether you belong to an organised religion or not.

Mike that is all very well and interesting BUT has no relevance to the part about the disciples sharing.
Acts 4 32 "Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common" (that is not even socialism that is communism)
Proverbs 22:16 "He who oppresses the poor to make more for himself or who gives to the rich, will only come to poverty" (surely an attack on capitalism)
Proverbs 21 13 "Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered" (sounds like a good case for social welfare to me)
Acts 2. 42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts. ( sounds like socialism/communism to me)
Interested to hear your take on those quotes from the Bible.....as a Christian I am sure you are now joining the ranks of socialists....or is Christianity just about being baptised...forget everything else.

Jim, I guess it is not easy to understand that God does not save us by good works, but only expects voluntary, not government controlled, good works from those who believe. In Acts, the church was taking care of their own, sharing among themselves, who were being oppressed.

Paul also wrote that the gospel is veiled to those who do not believe. And he also wrote: "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." Now, some right wing capitalist zealot might interpret that to mean that there should be no welfare. No, the bible was not meant to be searched for loopholes.

Jim, I'll let you have the last word on this if you wish. God bless you, you have a good heart.

Amen!

Best to all, John

And this one sentence sums it up.

I pray that you read ALL of the Bible before again dissing someone who knows what they are talking about.

Bill I suppose it does sum things up.....

Mike Thanks I will have the last word.......it seems that I am not the one looking for loopholes but YOU and others like you.

If you do not work you do not eat......(simple statement of fact) pretty much the same today as it was back then. I have always had a good work ethic BUT there are some who would want to work but for reasons cannot....the elderly, the sick, the handicapped and those who cannot find work but try.......surely in any caring society these people should be cared and provided for.....there is certainly enough to go around in any fair society....I am sure Jesus would have wanted it so....after all....according to the Bible and his teachings......

Jesus was a socialist FACT....I have proof.


AMEN.

Jim, you sure can quote the bible,a book you don't believe in, to back up your arguements.LOL You seem to admire Jesus and His teaching, even though you doubt He existed. I believe you are more Christian than you want to admit.