Mmmmmmm
but do we need Jesus or just a set of rules to live and treat others by?

Seems to me sin is a choice. You do not break a rule involuntarily and if a rule is broken, doing so unvoluntarily means you do not know of its existence or are otherwise compelled to break it against your will.

God's 10 does not require Jesus. You apparently do need Jesus to attone for your(our) perceived sins.

I totally respect that belief until you use it against me.

It might be within your personal "sinful nature" to do so but it makes no rational sense to judge others in the name of our One Shared God whose spiritual essence we all share.

The only thing that matters is how you embrace and live your beliefs and represent the values of your faith and the values of the personal God you know and believe in.

And agnostics are at least honest and have examined what has been told to them to hold true only by faith. No proof, just historic cultural acceptance. Chances are Marty has looked at Aristotle, Epicurus, Lucretius in his spiritual search and is satisfied with his outlook as he has described it

The proof of that God of Abraham is all around us in temples, churches, mosques and their various communities and congregations and that extends out to other spiritual beliefs around the world.
That God is larger that all those who follow his word as articulated by His Holy Prophets and Messengers and scholars, contemporary representatives, and most likely not exactly as thought to be by those who worship Him.

From what I can see, you need Jesus to absolve you from the sinful nature of man, and attone for an original sin which was Eat The Apple and become self aware and learn right from wrong and that life ended in our impending deaths. You need Jesus to intercede with God and forgive a bunch more sinning as you go along in life.

And yes what verse started with "And Jesus so hated the a-hole......."

Tony this is not a challenge against you beliefs but against specific posts here.
Hope you are sufficiently well aware.
Had an aha that is why when I figured out Japov as just another point of view.
Did see you have fun with it with provocative statements in the past
But when it gets to this level it crosses into not right

If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop