"Morality is an offshoot of responsibility. If God gave us no choice, there'd be no responsibility and no morality." Mike D

This is very logical and traditional view of free will. And it points to the issues that make me an agnostic instead of a Christian. Judgement. God creates an imperfect world, fills it with fallible people and punishes the creatures he makes if they don't see beyond it through faith.

But either God could create responsibility and morality without "choice" or he's not all powerful. You're saying he has to follow some rules that exist outside him. It's like saying God couldn't create good without allowing evil. Maybe I couldn't figure out how to do that, but I'm not God. Where did those rules come from? If God chose them, he's at least as responsible for what happens to people than they are.

Have you ever noticed that all the people we're supposed to emulate in the Bible did have direct evidence of God? Abraham, Daniel, David, Moses, Jesus, the disciples, Paul...
Even Job, as he struggled along with God telling him to shut up, didn't have to decide through faith that God exists. Faith, the evidence of things unseen, wasn't demanded of them.

The "all men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence wasn't some comparison of individuals or acceptance of people as they are, farts and all.

It was revolution.

The European royal vision of the universe was the chain of being.
God was better than the angels, who were better than the king, who was better than other humans and could control their lives or kill them on a whim because he was God's choice to rule.

The Americans rejected that and said everyone was created with the right of life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It was the rule of law among "equals" verses rule by the divine right of kings.

Last edited by joyboy; 12/20/07 01:39 AM.