So what I see on this board are (mostly) a bunch of reasonably intelligent people with wildly divergent ideas about religion in general and Christianity in particular.

For the most part, they've been exposed to about the same ideas -- being from pretty much the same culture and all. But even believers don't agree entirely with each other. Neither do those who don't believe.
And it's been that way for a very long time -- none of these arguments are exactly new. Some people might be right -- there's apparently no way of empirically knowing, at least until you die and it's too late to change your mind -- which would mean that virtually everyone else is wrong.

So maybe one of the believers can tell me how a loving God, likened to a father, could create the evidently confusing circumstances of this world (and even if man or Satan messed it up, He created man and Satan) and punish, horribly and forever, the creatures that He decided should exist if they don't get it right.

What's the point? That just doesn't seem divine to me. If for some reason He decided he needed to come to Earth/send His son to take on their sins and bring them salvation (Once again, a decision that's never explained in the Bible. Why does God have to do that? He's the rule maker.), that seems divine.

But the judgement part -- the fear-based, I know where you'll be on judgement day -- subtext of what a lot of believers say, well that sounds man made. I can't see why a loving God would want followers based on fear anymore than he'd want a world full of followers without free will. There's no free will in fear.

Fear is what man uses to subjugate man.

"I agree, there've been many atrocities done in the name of God...also in the name of Democracy, Socialism, Royal Families, National Pride, Cultural Pride, Racial Pride, Neighborhood Pride, School Pride, Family Pride, Personal Pride, Capitalism, Morality, Fairness, Decency, Safety and Security. Unless those things are also wrong, then blaming them, instead of blaming folks who would use them as an excuse to do bad things, is flawed logic. Come on people, it's personal responsibility, don't look outward for reasons why kids are immoral, they're immoral because we are."

Mike, you seem like a reasonable guy, but this argument is what's illogical. You're setting up religion (God) as something separate from Democracy, Socialism, Racial "Pride" Nationalism, etc.
As an agnostic, I'd have to point out that everything you listed is a form of tribalism -- everyone thinks their "tribe" is correct and therefore threatened by the other tribes. That's where the conflict comes from.

Logically, religion, a belief in one idea about God, is also a form of tribalism.
Logically, there is no difference between the violence committed in the name of God and in the name of national pride or ethic strife.
And logically, yes, all of those things are bad if they lead to violence. People don't decide to be "bad," then look around for democracy or national pride as a reason. Tribalism is hard-wired and comes out in various ways depending on the circumstances. Depending on the apparently hard-wired fear that so many people have exploited.
You really think everyone in Rwanda came to a conscious, moral decision to warp some admirable pride in being a Tutsi to slaughter Hutu children with machetes?

Kaly, you also seem like a lovely person. But what you apparently don't know about science could -- and has -- filled any number of books.

The Big Bang -- a horribly inapt metaphor of a title -- had nothing to do with an atom or anything else exploding. It's way weirder than that. But it's called the Big Bang theory because it's survived all the tests designed to disprove it (the scientific method.) There is evidence we can see -- background radiation, etc. that is predicted by the Big Bang theory and is pretty convincing.

Saying that God is the sustainer of gravity just shows that you either don't understand the science, or are just rejecting it, I'm sorry. Gravity warps space and time in a way almost analagous to how a bowling ball placed on a bed will "warp" the mattress. Do you think a "sustainer" is necessary for that to happen?

As far as answered prayers, honestly, do you think the children in Darfur pray for mercy? That there isn't one believing person who died of cancer who didn't offer a heartfelt prayer? Which is harder to believe, that things happen at random or that a loving God acts randomly?



Last edited by joyboy; 01/10/08 02:39 AM.