Jim,
Sorry for the format this takes on but I wrote it in "notebook" and now after previewing it, it comes out a bit jumbled.
Anyway, you miss my point. First off, I wasn't at this point concerning myself with Christianity or any other religion. I was merely
giving a very small bit of evidence for the case of creative design. How did the cosmos become so finely tuned, not just to
support life, but to allow it to exist as it does at all? It all just happened by mere chance right? Modern astronomers
believe they can mathmatically go back in time to a fraction of a second after the Big Bang. It's actually a fraction so
small that if memory serves me well is something like .01 to the 43rd power or a decimal followed by 43 zeros and a 1. But
they admit that they can go no further back than that because at that point, all known physics breaks down completely. So
what was the catalyst for what happened just before that, at the very beginning of time and the cosmos. As a side note, the
Big Bang was a name started by astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle to ridicule those who did not believe in a steady state universe.
Steady state cosmology has been debunked by more advanced and recent scientific discovery. So tell me, What was that
catalyst? Whatever it was it had to be outside of what became to be the cosmos just as if you made something you would not be
found within it itself. So far you have offered zero evidence scientifically that would preclude a creator or the need for
one other than your opinion. That's it. Your individual opinion. Not much to go on in your instance. No evidence at all.

But since you mentioned "Stevie your list although extensive proves nothing other than that conditions have to be perfect for
life to begin.....if given long enough chance will make conditions right" let's address that comment. It is estimated that
the universe is approximately 14 billion years old. Earth, it is believed by astronomers, is somewhere in the area of 4.5
billion years old. That's not much time for life to begin, if you believe in evolution, even given the precise fine tuning
and mere chance. It gives Earth enough time to be in a suitable state to "support" life but not for organic life to spring
from inorganic matter by astronomical standards. Big difference. Why is there no organic life springing forth from inorganic
matter today? The conditions are ripe for it if it was scientifically sound.

You further wrote...
If God is so all powerful and clever...well you would have thought he would have made a better job of it all round....
1. he would not have made anything imperfect.
2. if mankind blew Eden for whatever reason you would have thunk he could have rectified the situation there and there.
3. If he wanted his presence felt then he could have made it clear by giving us conclusive unchallengeable proof ( a few
manmade words called the Bible does not count for me)
4. and last but by no means least he could never let atrocities happen in HIS name.

To address points #1&2 God didn't create anything imperfect in the beginning. Through the fall the world became imperfect but
he did rectify the situation by becoming a man in real space-time in the person of Jesus so through his birth, death and
resurrection he who was without sin became sin and paid the price for your sins, my sins and everyone else's. But is all based on Grace (unmerited favor). He has offered you this gift. All you have to do is accept the gift. You can't get there from your own works. Finally, Then everything
will be restored to it's original perfect form.

Your 3rd point..."If he wanted his presence felt then he could have made it clear by giving us conclusive unchallengeable
proof ( a few manmade words called the Bible does not count for me)"

Well, actually He has given more than enough compelling evidence that He exists as I previously stated and there is no
scientific evidence or proof that He doesn't or couldn't exist as you like to state. You like to scoff at the Bible but there
are hundreds of prophesies which came true concerning the birth (even the place of birth), manner of death and concerning
many other concerns in the life of Jesus. The Hebrew scriptures are a collection of 39 books written my people of many
different writers from differing times, situations, stations in life, etc. which all fit seamlessly together as a whole and
they all lead up to a climax in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. He also has made himself available on a personal
basis to billions of those who sincerly seek or have sought him. I am one of those billions so I can speak for myself on that
matter, thank you very much. You made a definitive statement earlier on that PRAYERS ARE NEVER ANSWERED. Hmmm...How do you
know that as a matter of authority? I know of lots of cases personally where prayers were answered in miraculous fashion.

Point #4..."and last but by no means least he could never let atrocities happen in HIS name."

Ahh yes. The all knowing Big Jim apprehending the mind of the infinite. Once again, just your mere opinion. Yes, there have
been atrocities committed in the name of God but these were all by the hand of sinful men, not of God Himself. Unfortunately
it has happened at the hand of many religions including the Catholic church which has long since condemned them.

You wrote...
"You ask for proof that the Bible is wrong...well there is archaeological evidence a plenty just watch the Discovery
channel...."

Reread what I wrote earlier. I was at that juncture leaving out Christianity or religion in general and I made a point of
that. I didn't ask you to disprove the Bible but to give scientific evidence (not even proof) that there was no creator or the need for one. You have yet to offer any.

But since you bring it up, there have been many documentaries on the Discovery channel and others such as the History channel
concerning archaeological evidence that buttress the Bible narratives as well. Both schools have their own agenda granted.
There actually have been recent archaeological discoveries in the last century and in more recent days that include
inscriptions mentioning biblical characters such as King David and even Pontius Pilate to name only two. Archaeological
discoveries were found recently that cleared up the apparent lack of evidence for one of the villages of Jesus time along the
Sea of Galilee. I believe the village was Capernaum but I may be wrong on that lone point but anyway, Archaeological digs
further up from the Sea of Galilee have uncovered artifacts that show that it did infact exist. The reason it was not located
earlier is because the shoreline of the Sea of Galilee has receeded in the last 2000 years by several hundred feet. They were
looking in the wrong location until recently.

As this has turned into a rather long exposition I'll continue in another post.....Stay tuned.






I'm the only person here who is not unique.